F1 2008: Singapore Grand Prix!

BlueElephant · Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:47 pm

Hello All,

I thought we'd start this off a bit early seeing as there will be a lot of interest in this race.

Singapore will be a Brand New Circuit to the F1 Calendar, and will also be a really cool Street Circuit. But It will also be held...AT NIGHT!

Lewis Hamilton leads Felipe Massa by 1 pt (Pending Appeal on Monday), and Should make for an awesome last 4 races ( barring anymore stupid calls by the FIA)

Having walked on some of those streets in Singapore, I can tell you that Its a really awesome place, and just imagining F1 cars flying around those streets is something brilliant.

Because there really isn't realy footage of the track yet...

Here's a good Video about the Circuit.

LTU932 · Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:50 pm

I still feel that the Singapore Grand Prix is nothing but a commercial stunt by Bernie and Max, just because they want people in Europe to watch at 14:00 and not early in the morning. Formula 1 isn't a night show, and even Indycar restricts nightraces to circuits in the continental United States.

For me, it's always a bit of a tradition to get up early to watch the races in Japan and Australia (at least, when I was still in Germany), but neither Bernie or Max care about it, or else they wouldn't have threatened Melbourne with taking away their GP just because the circuit isn't built for a night race.

BlueElephant · Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:06 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
For me, it's always a bit of a tradition to get up early to watch the races in Japan and Australia (at least, when I was still in Germany), but neither Bernie or Max care about it, or else they wouldn't have threatened Melbourne with taking away their GP just because the circuit isn't built for a night race.

I agree, I think it'd be just as cool as a Day race.

But keep in mind...for Us in the US or in the Americas, who do follow F1. All the races in Asia come in the Middle of the night. I woke up at 2:30 am to watch the races in Australia, Bahrain.

MadameConcorde · Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:34 pm

I think this is going to be a great race. The setting in downtown Singapore is quite extraordinary the night race will make it even more so. It is like Monaco (a small nation host) in a totally different style. I really look forward to it.

amigocharlie · Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:45 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
For me, it's always a bit of a tradition to get up early to watch the races in Japan and Australia

I always get up or don't even go to bed just to watch!
Oh well, still looking forward to a great race. Below you ca see the work that had to be done to complete the race track and pit lane. Pics taken from the Singapore Flyer around the end of February.

race track

and pit lane

Cheers
Bobby

t1210s · Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:52 pm

Cant wait should be a great race but how much of a night race will it be the track will surely have to be lit up to near daylight conditions

BlueElephant · Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:59 pm

Quoting T1210s (Reply 5):
Cant wait should be a great race but how much of a night race will it be the track will surely have to be lit up to near daylight conditions

To the Drivers, it'll look like a Day time race i'm sure...Earlier this year Moto GP had a night race in Qatar, it went without a hitch, and looked pretty much like it would in the day time.

BUT...one thing that interests me....Flash Photography...I wonder what they'll do about that...could you imagine driving through a straight by thousands of fans' flashes going off?

Alessandro · Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:02 pm

It´ll be a nice experiment, I think. So how is the weather like this time of the year?

EZEIZA · Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:04 am

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 2):
But keep in mind...for Us in the US or in the Americas, who do follow F1. All the races in Asia come in the Middle of the night. I woke up at 2:30 am to watch the races in Australia, Bahrain.

True, but to be honest I like it when I have these races before I go to sleep Big grin

And of course for me it has become on of my most respected traditions throughout the past 10 years to wake up at 08.45 with just enough time to make myself a coffee and watch the 09.00 races (14.00 European time) no matter how late I went to sleep the night before. As an example, last Saturday we had my best friend's bachelor party. Went to sleep at 06.30 and 2 hours later I was up Wink

In fact, I have more trouble watching the Canadian or Brasilian GP because I usually have other things to do at 2pm on Sundays, but at 9am the rest of the country is asleep Silly

Gman94 · Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:19 am

Looking forward to this race a lot, most motor sport night races are run on the stadium oval tracks in the US so will be interesting to see the Singapore downtown setting at night. The weather looks like it's going to be wet, the forecast for the next five days is heavy showers everyday. I guess the teams were expecting wet race though with Singapore being a tropical country that get's regular downpours of rain.

bill142 · Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:40 am

I'm looking forward to this race a lot. This time eight years ago I was in Singapore looking out my hotel window thinking that Singapore would be a great place to hold a grand prix. Granted I was looking out over Serangoon Road in Little India which is a world away from Marina Bay. Either way, I never thought I would see it happen.

Quoting Amigocharlie (Reply 4):

Looks like parts of the circuit are purpose built. Outside of the pitlane area, I thought the entire circuit was all streets around the area.

797 · Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:22 pm

I think it's a great way to begin the last part of this championship. Even though I believe this is a crazy idea, it's going to be a pretty good spectacle... new race track with an extreme new condition... should be promising!

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
For me, it's always a bit of a tradition to get up early to watch the races in Japan and Australia (at least, when I was still in Germany),

Tell me about it! Eastern time... waking up at 3-4am to watch the Malaysian GP!

At what time is this one going to be around here?

BTW, I hope Felipe does a good job. I find Hamilton quite arrogant sometimes, even though he's an amazing pilot...

astuteman · Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:18 pm

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 10):
Granted I was looking out over Serangoon Road in Little India which is a world away from Marina Bay.

Can you imagine an F1 GP in there?
Pit stop outside Mustapha's anyone Smile

Rgds

CXfirst · Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:40 pm

I think it will be a very cool race, especially with the reflective tyre markings.

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/9/8399.html

-CXfirst

B747forever · Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:24 am

Well I do look forward for this GP. But I dont know if I will wake up 5 in the morning to see it.

So will Hamilton win this one?? Isnt he "famous" for winning GPs he has never been driving in before??

EZEIZA · Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:43 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 14):
Well I do look forward for this GP. But I dont know if I will wake up 5 in the morning to see it.

There's always the possibility of not having to wake up, and go to sleep after the race, but you might need some help that a few beers can offer Big grin

btw, if it's at 5 in Sweden, it's at midnight in Argentina, so its at 10pm in Venezuela? Wait, is anyone changing their clocks this weekend ?

B747forever · Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:15 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 15):
btw, if it's at 5 in Sweden,

Err, I am not in Sweden anymore. I am in L.A, therefore I have to wake up at 5am.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 15):
but you might need some help that a few beers can offer

He, he. Yeah right, and I am only 16.

EZEIZA · Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:12 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 16):
Err, I am not in Sweden anymore. I am in L.A, therefore I have to wake up at 5am.

hmmm ... that makes things a bit more interesting ... if I'm not mistaken then, we are +4hs from LA in Argentina, so the race will be a 9am, so it's at 2pm in (most of) Europe?

Quoting B747forever (Reply 16):
He, he. Yeah right, and I am only 16.

better, the hang over is much more "user friendly" at your age Big grin

BlueElephant · Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:29 pm

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70792

McLaren Lose appeal.
The FIA basically decided that the penalty wasn't admisable in the first place.

Funny how things work out eh?...the stewards, could have given Hamilton a fine or a 10 place grid penalty in SPA, but decided to issue a penalty they knew was probably unappealable. The whole thing still seems fishy to me.

But...On to Singapore then.

moo · Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:58 pm

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 18):
Funny how things work out eh?...the stewards, could have given Hamilton a fine or a 10 place grid penalty in SPA, but decided to issue a penalty they knew was probably unappealable

I think its complete and utter bollocks - the FIA turned down the appeal on the basis that "Article 152 of the International Sporting Code states that drive-through penalties are 'not susceptible to appeal'", which is utter crap considering that this penalty was issued after the end of the race, indeed after the podium celebrations. There should be no way to issue 'drive through penalties' after the end of the race.

BlueElephant · Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:15 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7631230.stm

A good synopsis of the events of the SPA penalty and appeal.
Its the BBC...I think it is a fair and good article, although it is British.

I still want to know why the cross examination in the court was from Ferrari.

davehammer · Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:20 pm

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 20):
I still want to know why the cross examination in the court was from Ferrari.

Indeed. This has absolutely nothing to do with them. The appeal hearing was between McLaren/Hamilton and the FIA. Still, same old, same old.

EZEIZA · Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:18 pm

It was unlikely for the appeal to work ... I would have prefered it did.

MadameConcorde · Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:38 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 22):
It was unlikely for the appeal to work ... I would have prefered it did.

I had no expectations that the FIA would remove the stewards sanction on Hammy. They are terribly unfair to him. This whole thing is scandalous but that's how it is. Angry

I hope he will have a big win in Singapore but who knows... thet might pull another trick on him again if he wins the race on Sunday. Angry

Boeing74741R · Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:42 pm

Quoting Davehammer (Reply 21):
Indeed. This has absolutely nothing to do with them. The appeal hearing was between McLaren/Hamilton and the FIA. Still, same old, same old.

But the penalty was given for a move that Lewis did on Kimi Raikkonen, and last time I checked Kimi currently drives for Ferrari. So yes, it has got something to do with Ferrari.

I can see why all the Hamilton fans are angry with the FIA's decision, but just moaning about it isn't going to overturn the decision and there are better things to worry about. So how about letting it drop and focus on the rest of the season?

[Edited 2008-09-23 09:47:38]

moo · Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:09 pm

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 24):
But the penalty was given for a move that Lewis did on Kimi Raikkonen, and last time I checked Kimi currently drives for Ferrari. So yes, it has got something to do with Ferrari.

The penalty was given by the FIA, Ferrari had nothing to do with it, and should have had no representation at all at the hearing.

davehammer · Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:18 pm

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 24):
But the penalty was given for a move that Lewis did on Kimi Raikkonen, and last time I checked Kimi currently drives for Ferrari. So yes, it has got something to do with Ferrari.

The penalty was given by the race stewards. The penalty is upheld by the governing body the FIA. They gave the punishment to Hamilton and therefore Mclaren. Whether Kimi was involved in the incident in question is neither here nor there. The case is FIA vs Hamilton no one else. Anyway, I hope we can just get on with the racing now but the whole situation has left a very sour taste in the mouth of the majority of F1 fans that I know.

BlueElephant · Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:42 pm

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 24):
But the penalty was given for a move that Lewis did on Kimi Raikkonen, and last time I checked Kimi currently drives for Ferrari. So yes, it has got something to do with Ferrari.

As Moo and Davehammer have already suggested, it should have been the Lawyers of the FIA cross-examining the McLaren team. If they wanted to get Ferrari involved..they should have called in only one person on the team....Kimi Raikkonen to act as a witness...to give his side of the story.

Had the FIA been completely fair about this, I wouldn't have an issue about it. Massa got away with something at Valencia...he SHOULD have got a drive through penalty, but was only given a fine. But when Hamilton gives up his position...and gets penalized for "not using the racing circuit"...and Kimi doesn't get Penalized for doing something VERY similar....in the very next lap, something definately fishy going on.

MadameConcorde · Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:52 pm

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 27):
Had the FIA been completely fair about this, I wouldn't have an issue about it. Massa got away with something at Valencia...he SHOULD have got a drive through penalty, but was only given a fine. But when Hamilton gives up his position...and gets penalized for "not using the racing circuit"...and Kimi doesn't get Penalized for doing something VERY similar....in the very next lap, something definately fishy going on.

The preferred treatment of some of the drivers is obvious. The F1 governing body is biased. It's just as simple as that.

I hope Hamilton will win in Singapore.

moo · Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:13 pm

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 27):
Had the FIA been completely fair about this, I wouldn't have an issue about it.

The thing that gets me about it, and the sole thing, is that the 'drive through penalty' was issued after the race. Not during the last few laps, but after the end. Infact, after the podium ceremony.

Thats tantamount to the race stewards making up the final results imho. Especially as they used a penalty that could not be challenged.

The laws of the sport should be changed -

Firstly, any penalty imposed after the checkered flag should be open to full appeal, with no doubt about it. This prevents the race stewards from arbitrarily changing the race outcome with no recourse.

Secondly, no penalty should be imposed that affects that race outcome for any minor infraction. Keep major, immediate penalties for major infractions - if the driver is dangerous, then his conduct certainly should come under scrutiny and his position should be in doubt. But in non-dangerous situations, the penalty should be suspended until the next race - a 5 or 10 position slip on the starting grid, or the requirement to start from the pits. This eliminates completely the charge of stewards arbitrarily deciding who wins on their circuit.

Boeing74741R · Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:19 pm

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 27):
As Moo and Davehammer have already suggested, it should have been the Lawyers of the FIA cross-examining the McLaren team. If they wanted to get Ferrari involved..they should have called in only one person on the team....Kimi Raikkonen to act as a witness...to give his side of the story.

Fair dos. I think the argument for Raikkonen not being present at the hearing was that he crashed out of the race not long after Hamilton committed the offence, but there we go. What's done is done, so I think it's only best now to move on.

Hamilton can easily get his revenge on the track.

moo · Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:22 pm

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 30):
Hamilton can easily get his revenge on the track.

Not against the right people, he cant...

LTU932 · Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:42 pm

Quoting Moo (Reply 25):
The penalty was given by the FIA, Ferrari had nothing to do with it, and should have had no representation at all at the hearing.

The problem is that initially, the stewards told McLaren that the move was perfectly fine, only to later and suddenly reverse themselves and punish McLaren and Hamilton for this. I'm no fan of Hamilton, but it definitely smells like a bias towards Ferrari, if not indirect manipulation of the results by Ferrari.

na · Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:50 pm

Quoting Moo (Reply 19):
There should be no way to issue 'drive through penalties' after the end of the race.

So fouls done at the end of the race demanding a drive-through penalty by the rules should not be punished the right way? That would open the door for last minute fouls. After the last race I think 10 down the grid at next race is not enough, but starting at the very back is a discussible alternative to a drive-through penalty which at the very end of a race always means loss of victory.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 20):
I still want to know why the cross examination in the court was from Ferrari.

???? German Press is reporting Ferraris comment as "we have nothing to do with the decision". On the other hand Ferrari is the team which suffered from Hamiltons action in Spa, let it be right or wrong.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 28):
The F1 governing body is biased.

I´m a Ferrari Fan since the times of Niki Lauda (actually the last GP Lauda won in a Ferrari was the first GP I saw live at Zandvoort), and so far I always denied comments like that, but three things this and last year make me worry. First was that I think the McLaren penalty for spying was too strong. Then I thought that Raikonnen must have been called into the pits when his exhaust broke in France and presented a serious potential hazard. Third this penalty against Hamilton. What exactly was the foul he should have made? I have seen the scene 5 times or so and can´t ssee anything grave enough to be punished that way. Like all intelligent drivers (for instance Massa in Monza) he let Raikonnen, clearly in trouble due to his growing bad weather disadvantage, pass after he overtook him unfairly in the chicane.
And speaking of F1 being biased, I know enough from the last 3 1/2 F1 decades that in the past it was more of a British "Mafia" which ruled the show.

MadameConcorde · Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:00 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 33):
I have seen the scene 5 times or so and can´t ssee anything grave enough to be punished that way.

Me too. At least 5 times. I did not see anything worthy of such a heavy punishment. Only the stewards and the FIA governing body obviously did not see it the same way.

moo · Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:10 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 33):
So fouls done at the end of the race demanding a drive-through penalty by the rules should not be punished the right way?

Show me how many fouls actually get committed right at the end of a race, or even have the potential at the end of a race - usually the cars are well spaced out, with this race being an interesting deviation.

If the penalty can be applied *during* the race, then so be it - I am solidly against the race stewards having hte power to arbitrarily change the outcome of a race so long after it is over as in this case (the penalty was not applied until a few hours after the race was over).

Punishment at the next race is still punishment - start them at the back of the grid, or from the pits, or apply the time penalty.

Quoting NA (Reply 33):
but starting at the very back is a discussible alternative to a drive-through penalty which at the very end of a race always means loss of victory.

The problem with this incident is that Hamilton was not all that far behind second place - only about a second and a half at the end of the race. Now, he was on the wrong tyres and second place was on the right tyres for the conditions, but if the time penalty had been applied during the race, Hamilton would have known he had to push himself harder or not have slacked off as much when Raikkonen left play (it happens, they don't drive as fast when they know theres time between their lead and the car behind them, especially with only a handful of laps remaining and in those conditions) - I don't know whether that race was his first or his second on that engine, so theres the potential that he conserved the engine in the closing stages after Raikkonen retired when he should have been making up pace for second place.

Hamilton could potentially have made second place, had he known about the penalty (or even the chance of the penalty) during the closing stages - but no, the decision to investigate and award a penalty was not made until the positions were inevitable.

Thats my issue. The stewards arbitrarily decided who won and who lost because they applied the penalty after the end of the race.

BlueElephant · Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:58 pm

Quoting Moo (Reply 35):
Thats my issue. The stewards arbitrarily decided who won and who lost because they applied the penalty after the end of the race.

The same issue occured at Valencia with Massa...However he won, the race and the stewards only decided to hand him a fine. I am not quite sure but the penalty for unsafe release and dangerous manouvering in the Pit Lane is also cause for a drive through Penalty...is it not?

Why then did Ferrari only get fined 10,000 Euro, and not have 25 second penalty or a drive through tacked onto their driver?

It was under investigation after the race...and the stewards obviously decided only to apply a fine. If they had tacked on 25 seconds, Massa would have finished 20 seconds BEHIND Hamilton..Something still Fishy.

bill142 · Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:54 am

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 20):

I still want to know why the cross examination in the court was from Ferrari.

Ferrari are allways 'Represented' at the ICA. I wouldn't be surprised if they were represented during a WRC dispute.

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 24):
last time I checked Kimi currently drives for Ferrari. So yes, it has got something to do with Ferrari.

Has nothing to do with Ferrari. The only capacity they should have been there in was observation. The penalty was issued by the FIA, the FIA are the ones who have to come up with a compelling argument to A) Justify the penalty and B) Why it should not be over turned.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 27):
Had the FIA been completely fair about this,

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 28):
The F1 governing body is biased.

The ICA is not as independent as the FIA would like people to believe. It is not transparent, an it is decisions are not made objectively. It's panel members are not people who no knowledge of the events and come to the sessions with predetermined opinions and judgements.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 32):
The problem is that initially, the stewards told McLaren that the move was perfectly fine, only to later and suddenly reverse themselves and punish McLaren and Hamilton for this. I'm no fan of Hamilton, but it definitely smells like a bias towards Ferrari, if not indirect manipulation of the results by Ferrari.

It's amazing how these things always crop up at critical times in the championship. Had this happened in round 2 nothing would have come from it.
It also begs the question, what is the point of the race director? This outcome undermines the authority of the race director and the teams confidence in seeking a ruling or clarification.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 36):
Why then did Ferrari only get fined 10,000 Euro, and not have 25 second penalty or a drive through tacked onto their driver?

Because the stewards know which side of their bread is buttered.

na · Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:05 am

One good thing the decision has, and that might be a decisive factor behind it (and not Ferraris rumoured influence): The championship remains a thriller.
The unprecedented superiority of the Ferrari/Schuhmacher era was not too much liked outside Italy and Germany. Gosh, there were times earlier this decade, were I, the Ferrari fan, did not watch too many races because a Schuhmacher victory was a given. Its not Ferrari winning that the FIA is after, its a thrilling championship to the very end.
So I hope for another Vettel win!

sudden · Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:04 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 38):
One good thing the decision has, and that might be a decisive factor behind it (and not Ferraris rumoured influence): The championship remains a thriller.

You can flip and turn this until you drop, but it wont change the outcome no matter how much of a Hamilton/Mclaren fan you are. Right or wrong, we can only tag along for the ride.

In theory, 6 drivers can actually grab the title. When did that happen the last time?

Aim for the sky!
Sudden

BlueElephant · Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:11 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 38):
Its not Ferrari winning that the FIA is after, its a thrilling championship to the very end.

If thats the case, then why wasn't Schumacher penalized the number of times he should have. I want the competition to be a thriller, and it WAS until Valencia, when Massa wasn't penalized as he should...and hten at SPA when Hamilton was penalized when he shouldn't.

The end result now may be thrilling, but it will be forgotten, IF Ferrari wins...because all of these controversies will have effected peoples outcome. In honestly....Hamilton should really have at LEAST i think 9 point advantage. So now the only really fair outcome for Massa to win the WDC is winning by more than 9 points over Hamilton.

EZEIZA · Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:37 pm

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 40):
....Hamilton should really have at LEAST i think 9 point advantage

wait, why 9 points? shouldn't it be 7 given the Monza result? or where am I confused?

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 40):
when Massa wasn't penalized as he should

If Massa should have been penalized for that then Lewis's penalty is valid too. I think neither cases deserved a penalty but oh well ...

off topic slightly, but in today's press in Argentina an interesting interview on Jaques Villeneuve where he says that "Hamilton talks as if he would have won 10 championships but he hasn't yet won anything", adding that "he is extremely fast, but still makes mistakes although he does not recognize them, therefore he does not learn from them", and that "British press talks alot about him, and he ends up believing everything they say".
That's a rough translation ... http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2008/09/24/automovilismo/01766782.html
seems like Lewis' comparison with MS and his claim that he has the balls Kimi does not is having some repercussion among former drivers that did win something Wink

[Edited 2008-09-24 05:50:05]

na · Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:54 pm

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 40):
If thats the case, then why wasn't Schumacher penalized the number of times he should have.

He was penalized several times, and severely too, can´t think of fouls the greatest racing champion of all time was not punished for.
But I can remember that the great Senna once won a championship by deliberately crashing into his opponents car and was not punished.

BlueElephant · Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:41 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 41):
wait, why 9 points? shouldn't it be 7 given the Monza result? or where am I confused?

Sorry you are correct. My Math was all messed up early this morning.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 41):
off topic slightly, but in today's press in Argentina an interesting interview on Jaques Villeneuve where he says that "Hamilton talks as if he would have won 10 championships but he hasn't yet won anything",

I take Villeneuve's comments with a grain of salt, because he's a bitter old man who was forced to drive NASCAR. He was a good driver in his prime, but now...not so much. Like Coulthard and Barrichello.

Not to mention, I think he's always hated Hamilton from the beginning, although I do agree with him...lately he has been talking with a sense of cockiness...I don't like it...But I still think he's one of hte best drivers out there right now.

Quoting NA (Reply 42):
He was penalized several times, and severely too, can´t think of fouls the greatest racing champion of all time was not punished for.

I'm not bad mouthing Schumacher...no doubt he's probably one of the best drivers ever. But...at the same time, I think he should have been Penalized more than he was. Had he been driving a silver car instead of a red one, things might have been a LOT different.

What I'm actually wondering about now is...Bourdais.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70807

He's been rotted with bad luck this season...just all around. I think he deserves a second year.
Sutil earned his spot from his Monte Carlo Race, and if anything Bourdais showed us what he had in Australia, Belgium and Qualifying at Monza. Seems he's come to grips with the new car...So I wish him the best in Singapore.

GO BOURDAIS!....Bon Chance!

EZEIZA · Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:30 pm

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 43):
Sorry you are correct. My Math was all messed up early this morning.

My math is usually messed up, period. Big grin

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 43):
although I do agree with him...lately he has been talking with a sense of cockiness...I don't like it...But I still think he's one of hte best drivers out there right now

He is one of the best, but still far behind being a "great" driver, although he has the potential. IMO the average is low. There are several drivers that are good, but there are no two great drivers now. Massa is good and very fast in dry conditions, but when it rains he could be driving a skateboard and he would probably go faster. Kimi too, but in his case my impression is that there are some limitations because of the car. I think Kimi overall is a much more "complete" driver than Massa. Lewis, as said, has all the potential, but he is still young and will keep on making mistakes for some time. Time will tell what he's capable of. Kubica, Vettel ... a lot of potential too. Alonso with a decent car is probably the best driver (based on when he wasn't driving the current taxi he is now), but all in all, the average seems low. This makes it interesting though because you can expect a mistake by anyone at anytime

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 43):
But...at the same time, I think he should have been Penalized more than he was. Had he been driving a silver car instead of a red one, things might have been a LOT different.

Well he did win twice with a non-red car Wink

legoguy · Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:05 am

I'm amazed that following the outcome of the trial, McLaren may have to dish out up to $1m in court costs to the FIA as well as....Ferrari! Simply stunning. Yet again Ferrari benefiting, this time from costs recouped from McLaren.

Why didn't the FIA just save all the hassle weeks ago and say the penalty was un-appealable. Why bother wasting so much time with courts when they knew that they would not allow McLaren to appeal.

Up until now, I wouldn't have minded seeing Hamilton, Massa or even Raikkonen win the championship as all 3 drivers deserve the championship, however now, I'd be more interested in Hamilton winning. That would be a big middle finger up to the FIA. Max Mosley would not be impressed.

EZEIZA · Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:43 pm

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 45):
Why didn't the FIA just save all the hassle weeks ago and say the penalty was un-appealable

I might be way off here since I lack of knowledge on this, but when a team appeals, aren't they aware that if they lose they are held accountable for all expenses? In a normal trial it sort of works like that, no? just asking!

na · Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:10 pm

There is an Interview with Eddie Jordan today were he says the conspiracy theory (mainly existing in English-speaking countries and stirred up by the notoriously biased British Media) is rubbish. He also says that from the 5 penalties Hamilton got this year 4 were fully justified - but not the Spa affair.

Stealthz · Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:38 pm

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 45):
I'm amazed that following the outcome of the trial, McLaren may have to dish out up to $1m in court costs to the FIA as well as....Ferrari!

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 46):
but when a team appeals, aren't they aware that if they lose they are held accountable for all expenses?

I can't find anything that justifies Ferrari claiming expenses for this ICA appearance, ICA rule 24 does not seem to allow for the appellant to pay costs for 3rd parties(but it might!!)
Having said that I can also see no reason why Ferrari was involved in the case at all, the appeal was on behalf of McLaren to the FIA ICA.
Why was Ferrari there at all unless it was to tick off the options & colour chart for the new 599GTB & 612 Scagliettis that they will soon be delivering to Messrs Harris, de Coninck et al

BlueElephant · Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:58 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 48):
Why was Ferrari there at all unless it was to tick off the options & colour chart for the new 599GTB & 612 Scagliettis that they will soon be delivering to Messrs Harris, de Coninck et al

Hahaha...good one...btw....McLaren should lose all the time, so that the "other" should win.

Now Can I have my 599GTB in Blue please...or SILVER if Possible Smile

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