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stasisLAX
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Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:13 am

"Russia will not consult Western nations or Georgia when deciding how many troops to post in the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said the decision was down to Russia and the "states" involved.

Moscow recognised the two regions as independent following a brief conflict with Georgia last month.

The comments seem to disregard pledges made by Russia in the ceasefire agreement that ended that conflict.

As part of the deal Russia agreed that its troops should return to pre-conflict positions.

Moscow has already announced plans to keep about 8,000 troops in the regions - far more than were there previously.

And analysts say the comments from Mr Putin, who was speaking after meeting French Prime Minister Francois Fillon, appear once again to disregard the agreement.

"As you know, we recognised South Ossetia's and Abkhazia's independence in the same way as many European countries recognized Kosovo's independence," he told Russian TV.

"The question of our armed forces' presence on these territories will be agreed on bilateral basis, in line with international law and on the basis of agreements between Russia and the states in question."

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7627697.stm

Comrade Putin continues to display his total lack of regard for keeping Russia's word in diplomatic negotiations concerning the cease-fire agreement with Georgia. Immediate entry into NATO for Georgia is now required to protect Georgia from any future Russian aggression IMHO.  irked 
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:01 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Immediate entry into NATO for Georgia is now required to protect Georgia from any future Russian aggression IMHO.

Too bad most of the regular citizens in Georgia are against this. The West is so naive. Politics isn't everything. Think of the civilians. I have MANY close friends in Tbilisi. All they want is for this BS to stop. Both Putin and Saakashvili are making bad moves. And it needs to stop.

Aeroflot777
 
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OA260
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:40 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
"Russia will not consult Western nations or Georgia when deciding how many troops to post in the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia

And if the people of the break away states want the Russian troops there then it is up to them. The West cant change the rules everytime it suits them.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 1):
The West is so naive.

 checkmark   checkmark 
 
Gman94
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:41 am



Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 1):
Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 1):
The West is so naive.

checkmark checkmark

We are only naive in thinking that Russia had turned it's back on the past, their actions over the last few years show a return to the good old Soviet days. The paranoia that they have with anything regarding the West is quite frankly ridiculous and it is them trying to restart the Cold War age of mistrust and dishonesty.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:35 am

I read an interesting article in the German ultra serious "Zeit" weekly about the Ukraine.
Apparently radicals there on both sides are playing with matches besides gun powder kegs.
The current issue is the Crimean peninsula, which up to the early 19th century, belonged to the Ottoman empire.
It used to be inhabited until the 1940s by Crimean Taratrs, a predominantly Muslim people, who were deported to central Asia during WW2 on Stalin's orders and replaced by ethnic Russians from Russia proper. Stalin on the other hand made the Crimean peninsula a part of the Ukraine, to which it still belongs today.
Now Sewastopol on the peninsula is the headquarters of the Russian Black sea fleet, a fact going back to the Czarist days. After the Soviet Union broke up, there was a treaty between Russia and the Ukraine about continued use of the port by the Russian Navy.

The Ukraine has also a high number of ethnic Russians in the easterly industrialised provinces.
Now over the last few years Ukrainian nationalists (and the current president is one of them) have been actively discriminating against the Russians, banning Russian language and by introducing school history books, which apparently state that Russian language is based on Ukrainian and that Ukrainians are much more cultured than Russians and other nationalist BS.

At the same time the Russian government has been stirring up trouble by supporting Russian extremists demanding a secession of the areas inhabited by a Russian majority, with the aim of joining Russia. As in the case of Georgia, Russia has been handing out passports to ethnic Russians in the Ukraine.

Moderates on both sides are not being listened to, and the radicals of both sides are both in government positions and are spoiling for a fight.

Jan
 
BestWestern
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:44 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
mmediate entry into NATO for Georgia is now required to protect Georgia from any future Russian aggression IMHO

You must be joking. The Georgian President is temper prone, and I dont want to be going to war against russia just because Georgia fancies another excursion into Abkazia or Osettia.

Can someone tell me why Mikheil Saakashvili constantly broadcasts from an office with a Georgian and EU flag behind him. Georgia isnt in the EU, and it isnt even in Europe.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:35 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 3):
We are only naive in thinking that Russia had turned it's back on the past, their actions over the last few years show a return to the good old Soviet days.

You're wrong. The guy who's calling the shots in Kremlin is a "flawless democrat".  covereyes 
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:05 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 6):
LECTED TEXT _
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 4093 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted Sun Sep 21 2008 15:35:59 your local time (27 minutes 54 secs ago) and read 3 times:




the problem is that the other guy isn't a beacon of democracy either, but rather uses nationalism in an almost fascist way.

Jan
 
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OA260
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:09 pm



Quoting BestWestern (Reply 5):
You must be joking. The Georgian President is temper prone, and I dont want to be going to war against russia just because Georgia fancies another excursion into Abkazia or Osettia.

Exactly

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 5):
Can someone tell me why Mikheil Saakashvili constantly broadcasts from an office with a Georgian and EU flag behind him. Georgia isnt in the EU, and it isnt even in Europe.

I know I have said it many times. Its like the British Prime Minister sitting in front of a US flag...errr ok bad example LOL..... It does add to part of the Mikeil circus and performance though.
 
Mir
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:12 pm



Quoting BestWestern (Reply 5):
The Georgian President is temper prone, and I dont want to be going to war against russia just because Georgia fancies another excursion into Abkazia or Osettia.

If I am not mistaken, if Georgia is in NATO and decides to move offensively, the other members are not obligated to come to their aid, even against the Russian counteroffensive that would result.

But the more difficult issue is one where Georgia provokes Russia without using military means. Saakashvili is a bold guy, and I'm not sure a bold guy on the border of Russia is one you want in NATO.

-Mir
 
ALexeu
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:52 pm

Another precedent. Bush said that US army will supply weapons for the military of independent Kosovo. So, what do you expect now.

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Immediate entry into NATO for Georgia is now required to protect Georgia from any future Russian aggression IMHO. irked

Georgia will not be attacked, unless they provoke, which I doubt at this moment.
 
Blackbird
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:05 pm

To be honest, I don't know why this is perceived to be such a surprize, Russians (government) have rarely been all that trustworthy (at least since the days of the Soviet Union, and probably before)...


Blackbird
 
UN_B732
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:14 pm

All is fine and dandy; except it's very clear if you look at any objective timetable; that this was a Georgian attack on Russian citizens.

-a
 
BestWestern
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:31 pm



Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 12):
All is fine and dandy; except it's very clear if you look at any objective timetable; that this was a Georgian attack on Russian citizens.

Seems like the majority in the west have no interest in facts, just soundbites from someone who sits in front of random flags.
 
NAV20
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:38 pm

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Comrade Putin continues to display his total lack of regard for keeping Russia's word in diplomatic negotiations concerning the cease-fire agreement with Georgia.

I'm afraid that it's a matter of 'Realpolitik,' StasisLAX. The 'West' - which largely consists of the USA and Britain - has committed around 150% of it's military resources to unimportant places like Afghanistan and Iraq. Russia's resources are not extended in the least.

So what did you expect? Bushco and the likes of Blair and Brown have completely thrown away the 'balance of power' that kept Europe at peace from 1945 (and eventually even destroyed USSR domination of the whole of Eastern Europe).

Now 'we' (I include my own country, Australia, in the military equation) have applied all our military resources to irrelevant parts of the world, mostly in the Middle East. We've dropped our guard against the only potential enemies that count - Russia and China.

What did you EXPECT the Russians to do? Just put up with 'us' economically-colonising countries on all sides of them, and establishing military bases, naval bases, and missile sites on ALL their borders?

[Edited 2008-09-21 10:48:38]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Oss

Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:39 pm

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 12):
All is fine and dandy; except it's very clear if you look at any objective timetable; that this was a Georgian attack on Russian citizens.

-a

According to the German Spiegel weekly of two weeks ago (unfortunately I couldn't find an internet link), this was actually confirmed by NATO radio intercepts from both the Russian and the Georgian military.
At the same time the Russian forces have been found to have grossly exagerated the number of South Ossetian victims of the Georgian attack (acc. to NATO, instead othe official number of more than 1500 victims, there were only about 150).

Jan

[Edited 2008-09-21 10:40:44]
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Oss

Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:07 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
Bushco and the likes of Blair and Brown have completely thrown away the 'balance of power' that kept Europe at peace from 1945

If the pro-appeasement likes of you had their way, half of Europe would still be occupied by Russians. All for the sake of "balance of power" conceived in Yalta.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
What did you EXPECT the Russians to do?

Certainly not to ruturn to the typical Soviet way of bullying of what they call "near abroad"? But their inferiority complex is stronger than desire for prosperity and non-totalitarian society.

[Edited 2008-09-21 11:08:19]
 
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OA260
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:24 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 10):
Another precedent. Bush said that US army will supply weapons for the military of independent Kosovo. So, what do you expect now.

Why does the USA have to crap on everyone elses door step?? Its time to reduce USA influence in European matters dramatically.
 
Gman94
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:36 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
economically-colonising

No one in the West is economically colonising the former Soviet republics. What did you expect the republics to do when the Soviet Union fell, forgive the Russian's for installing communist governments that were basically dictatorships with the strings pulled by Moscow? They were always going to turn to Europe and the west, if I was Lithuanian, Georgian or Estonian I wouldn't want anything more to do with the Russian's anymore.

If the ethnic Russian's in the former Soviet republics aren't happy in their new countries then there is a nice big country called Russia they can go and live in that has plenty of space for them, it's a bit rich for Russian's after all their crimes over the decades against these people to be crying foul now.

The delusional and paranoid Russian's have also made up an imaginary threat from the West where there is none and if they are going to keep pushing us for no reason then we should give them what they want, we'll soon see how brave how Putin and his Stalinist friends really are.
 
NAV20
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:48 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 16):
If the pro-appeasement likes of you had their way, half of Europe would still be occupied by Russians. All for the sake of "balance of power" conceived in Yalta.

Comparing our respective ages, L410Turbojet, I'd guess that I probably paid a considerably-higher personal price for 'appeasement' than you did. As it happens, I also paid a (much smaller) personal price - mostly in terms of wet feet and incipient frostbite - helping to dissuade the Red Army from trying to fight their way through the Fulda Gap........

The only thing anyone needs to say about NATO policy in the 1950s/60s - of confrontng Russia, all day, every day, no compromise (except, now and again when no officers were watching, exchanging waves with your opposite number) - is, "It bloody worked - well enough, anyway. The bastards didn't even try........."

Conversely, my guess is that's what's been being said in Whitehall and the Pentagon (until very recently, anyway) is, "We've won, the Russians are f*****d, under-equipped, powerless, we can walk all over them...." AND afford to divert almost all their resources to what Commonwealth armies, anyway, have always irreverently referred to as 'wog-bashing."

But that what is being said by the NATO guys closer to the Russian border is, "Hey - wait on! I'm not at all sure about this any more. The Russians are getting more organised by the week, and there are less and less of us - I'm not sure how much longer we can afford to go on ignoring them........."

The 'Muslim militants' are not, never have been, and never will be, any sort of credible threat to the Western democracies. They can be contained by 'police action' and diplomacy. In my opinion, it is madness to commit most of the Western world's miiltary forces to fighting what amounts to 'bands of brigands' - a load of bloody amateurs.

The armed forces of the West should, again in my opinion, be kept in reserve so that they reamin capable of countering the only armed forces that can seriously threaten us. Those of Russia and China.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:51 pm

Quoting Oa260 (Reply 17):
Why does the USA have to crap on everyone elses door step?? Its time to reduce USA influence in European matters dramatically.

No, it's time that Moscow keeps it diplomatic word to the EU, the U.S. and the rest of the world by respecting and recognizing Georgia's territorial integrity. Russia's influence in the world is decreasing as its bullying of small neighboring nations like Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova increases. The stationing of Russian troops and handing out Russian passports to biased citizens in these nations is just a few of Russia's transparent ploys.

Comrade Putin hates Georgian President Saakashvili with a burning passion. Why? Because oil and natural gas can transit through Georgia, without any control or profit-taking by Putin's key supporters, the Russian oil oligarchs. Putin wants to be threaten Europe with economic blackmail in order to influence political and economic decision-making in Russia's favor.

That's the real purpose for Putin's actions - not the desire for Abkhazia and South Ossetia citizens to have the right of self-determination. These citizens are now merely Moscow controlled pawns in Putin's geopolitical chess game.

[Edited 2008-09-21 12:52:30]
 
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OA260
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:03 pm



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 20):
Russia's influence in the world is decreasing as its bullying of small neighboring nations like Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova increases.

All thats happening is that one super power is weakening whilst another is getting stronger and enforcing their will on the rest of the world. Both super powers are as bad as eachother and both ignore international law and wishes. None of the two have the high ground although one claims to.
 
Scotty
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:06 pm

Read between the lines. This is not the USSR. Russia today is not a communist state full of "comrades". It is a democracy of a sort in which the power game, recognisable to US politicians as what goes on in Washingotn is being played out big time in the Kremlin.

What is going on in Russia is a power struggle between the "democratic" forces as typified by Medvedev and Putin and the military like the generals who want go and sink the NATO ships in the Black Sea to prove that Russia is BACK! Russia is using its oil revenue to fund improvements in the military to keep the military from kicking out the Putin/Medevedev civilian government. Meanwhile these two play good cop/bad cop to do the balancing act that is needed to stay in touch with the EU whilst playing to the audience back home.

So when Saakashivilli did his sums he predicted the Russians would not get involved but Putin and Medvedev knew that to maintain the confidence of the military, they would have to order Russian forces to respond in kind and plus.

I do not believe Medvedev is anything other than a liberal reformer - Putin also but to a lesser degree and being highly adept at the politicians skill of keeping his friends close and his enemies closer.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:14 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 19):
The 'Muslim militants' are not, never have been, and never will be, any sort of credible threat to the Western democracies. They can be contained by 'police action' and diplomacy. In my opinion, it is madness to commit most of the Western world's miiltary forces to fighting what amounts to 'bands of brigands' - a load of bloody amateurs.

Sir, with all due respect, how can you say that? The "load of bloody amateurs" brought the U.S. to its knees when these so-called "amateurs" hijacked 4 airliners and killed 3,000 U.S. citizens in the destruction of the World Trade Center, the crash of United 93, and the attack on the Pentagon.

[Edited 2008-09-21 13:22:24]
 
Scotty
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:25 pm



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 23):
Sir, with all due respect, how can you say that? The "load of bloody amateurs" brought the U.S. to its knees when these so-called "amateurs" hijacked 4 airliners and killed 3,000 U.S. citizens in the destruction of the World Trade Center, the crash of United 93, and the attack on the Pentagon

Some would say it was an inside job......

Not me I have to add
 
tu204
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:45 pm

Why I do not see a problem? Abkhazia and South Ossetia are sovreign states. It is up to the states involved to decide.
Does the United States government care what Russia thinks about putting missile defences in Poland? Poland is a sovreign state and so is the United States, it is up to them to decide. We may be against it, but thats life.
Abkhazia and South Ossetia are sovreign states, it doesn't matter who is against it, thats life.
 
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OA260
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:54 pm



Quoting Tu204 (Reply 25):
Why I do not see a problem? Abkhazia and South Ossetia are sovreign states. It is up to the states involved to decide.
Does the United States government care what Russia thinks about putting missile defences in Poland? Poland is a sovreign state and so is the United States, it is up to them to decide. We may be against it, but thats life.
Abkhazia and South Ossetia are sovreign states, it doesn't matter who is against it, thats life.

100% correct and right . Great post.  checkmark   checkmark 
 
tu204
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:14 pm



Quoting BestWestern (Reply 5):
You must be joking. The Georgian President is temper prone, and I dont want to be going to war against russia just because Georgia fancies another excursion into Abkazia or Osettia.

Can someone tell me why Mikheil Saakashvili constantly broadcasts from an office with a Georgian and EU flag behind him. Georgia isnt in the EU, and it isnt even in Europe.

You have to understand something, Saakashvili is a dog and a pawn of his sponsors. He also wants to be remembered. And he wants to look like something is being done. Since the collapse of the USSR, Georgia has been in ruins, then comes Saakashvili promising the world to his people during the revolution. Obviously, he could not make good on any of the promises of boosting the economy, improving quality of life. He also promised to return Abkhazia and Ossetia under Tbilisi's control. Anyone that has been to these regions knows it is impossible. But since he has full controll of the media in Georgia, after HE ATTACKED Ossetia, Georgians STILL think that we attacked them. I would not be suprised if his popularity has grown after this disaster that he caused.
As for the EU flag. Read above, he is a dog. He has to make sharp statements that do not necessarily have to make any sense. As long as he is seen and heard. He is a dog and a little child that wants attention.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 11):
To be honest, I don't know why this is perceived to be such a surprize, Russians (government) have rarely been all that trustworthy (at least since the days of the Soviet Union, and probably before)...

What?

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 20):
Comrade Putin hates Georgian President Saakashvili with a burning passion. Why? Because oil and natural gas can transit through Georgia, without any control or profit-taking by Putin's key supporters, the Russian oil oligarchs. Putin wants to be threaten Europe with economic blackmail in order to influence political and economic decision-making in Russia's favor.

No, Putin does hate him, but because he is a dog and a little child seeking attention, who continously makes absurd statements accusing Russia for all of his problems.
Note how our forces never tried to reach the pipeline through Georgia. How the hell can you say that we wanted the pipeline? We have more than enough export routes for our oil and natural gas.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 20):
That's the real purpose for Putin's actions - not the desire for Abkhazia and South Ossetia citizens to have the right of self-determination. These citizens are now merely Moscow controlled pawns in Putin's geopolitical chess game.

No, our desire is to not let another idiotic crusade from Saakashvilli take any more lives of Russian citizens.

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Comrade Putin continues to display his total lack of regard for keeping Russia's word in diplomatic negotiations concerning the cease-fire agreement with Georgia. Immediate entry into NATO for Georgia is now required to protect Georgia from any future Russian aggression IMHO.

No, This is the six point peace plan. Tell me what we violated.

1. No recourse to the use of force.

2. Definitive cessation of hostilities.

3. Free access to humanitarian aid

4. The Armed Forces of Georgia must withdraw to their permanent positions.


5. The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation must withdraw to the line where they were stationed prior to the beginning of hostilities. Prior to the establishment of international mechanisms the Russian peacekeeping forces will take additional security measures.


6. An international debate on the future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia and ways to ensure their lasting security will take place.


We withdrew out of Georgia, to where they had been prior to the conflict. Then we took additional measures to protect our forces (which we ambushed by Georgia on Aug 8th).
Then, we established an International Treaty of Friendship between the Russian Federation and the Republic of Abkhazia (and Republic of South Ossetia) which is considered an INTERNATIONAL MECHANISM.
So please tell me, what did we violate?
As to your comment about allowing them into NATO because it will prevent RUSSIAN AGRESSION? Where have you been. THEY ATTACKED US. Then they fooled all of the west for a good week or two that WE attacked THEM. Why don't you offer Hezbollah NATO membership if you think that NATO has the responsibility to defend agressors in conflicts.
I am sure the members of NATO have more sense than to let a modern day Adolf Hitler into the alliance.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:22 pm



Quoting Tu204 (Reply 27):
Saakashvili is a dog and a pawn of his sponsors



Quoting Tu204 (Reply 27):
You have to understand something, Saakashvili is a dog and a pawn of his sponsors. He also wants to be remembered. And he wants to look like something is being done. Since the collapse of the USSR, Georgia has been in ruins, then comes Saakashvili promising the world to his people during the revolution. Obviously, he could not make good on any of the promises of boosting the economy, improving quality of life. He also promised to return Abkhazia and Ossetia under Tbilisi's control. Anyone that has been to these regions knows it is impossible. But since he has full controll of the media in Georgia, after HE ATTACKED Ossetia, Georgians STILL think that we attacked them. I would not be suprised if his popularity has grown after this disaster that he caused.
As for the EU flag. Read above, he is a dog. He has to make sharp statements that do not necessarily have to make any sense. As long as he is seen and heard. He is a dog and a little child that wants attention.

While in many aspects you are correct, the EU and NATO are not really willing to have a rabid nationalist with fascist tendencies to join the club.
While a democratic Georgia would most probably be welcome, we don't want an idiot to pull us into a war with Russia (see my post about NATO having intercepted Russian and Georgian military radio transmissions during the war, which clearly showed that the Georgian military started the war, though the Russian government has also not alwys spoken the truth).

Jan
 
tu204
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:32 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 28):
While in many aspects you are correct, the EU and NATO are not really willing to have a rabid nationalist with fascist tendencies to join the club.
While a democratic Georgia would most probably be welcome, we don't want an idiot to pull us into a war with Russia (see my post about NATO having intercepted Russian and Georgian military radio transmissions during the war, which clearly showed that the Georgian military started the war, though the Russian government has also not alwys spoken the truth).

Exactly. I am sure that NATO does not want Georgia as a member. And you are right. Most NATO memebers realise that Georgia will bring you into a conflict with Russia. Especially because they still consider it's two neighbours as Georgian sovreign territory that they will try to invade them again.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:41 pm



Quoting Tu204 (Reply 29):
Exactly. I am sure that NATO does not want Georgia as a member. And you are right. Most NATO memebers realise that Georgia will bring you into a conflict with Russia. Especially because they still consider it's two neighbours as Georgian sovreign territory that they will try to invade them again.

Moment, Georgia is a souvereign country. As such Georgia can join any international organisation she likes.
But a precondition for Georgia to join NATO or the EU would be that Georgia has no border disputes with other countries and also fullfills certain standards of democracy and protection of minorities. This means once Georgia accepts the loss of South Ossetia and Abkhasia, they are free to join NATO.
They don't have to ask Russia for permission.
The same applies to the Ukraine.
E.g. they'll have to stop discriminating against the ethnic Russian part of the population and the Crimean issue would have to be resolved (where kleaves this the Crimean Tartars?), but once they do it they are welcome.

Jan
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:12 pm

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 27):
Note how our forces never tried to reach the pipeline through Georgia. How the hell can you say that we wanted the pipeline? We have more than enough export routes for our oil and natural gas.

With all due respect, that statement is wrong. There were several bomb craters right next to the BTC oil pipeline in Georgia. The Russian air force attempted to bomb the pipeline - but fortunately missed. There's photos of the damage somewhere on the BBC News website - a much more trustworthy news source than the surviving news (Putin-propaganda) outlets inside Russia.

[Edited 2008-09-21 16:41:08]
 
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:34 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 23):
Sir, with all due respect, how can you say that? The "load of bloody amateurs" brought the U.S. to its knees

I'm not saying that we shouldn't do everything we can to ensure, as far as possible, that nothng like that ever happens again, StasisLAX. I'm just saying that military action is no part of the solution. Terrorism is basically a threat posed by civilians, and therefore has to be countered by civilian agencies - in the case of the USA, the FBI, the police, and the immigration people. Threats located overseas have to be countered by the diplomats and the intelligence services.

In the case of 9/11, it was carried out by a group of Saudi-Arabian civilians living openly in the United States, and at least partly funded by the Saudi-Arabian royal family. Al Queda's front-man is also a Saudi.

So what was our response? Fomenting, and giving military support to, a coup d'etat in Afghanistan; then carrying out a full-scale invasion of Iraq; and now, it very much appears, bombing Pakistani towns on an increasing scale.

Military action cannot combat terrorist threats; all it can do, by killling large numbers of innocent civilians, is make us yet more millions of enemies; a proportion of whom will of course become active 'terrorists' - though they, naturally enough, will consider themselves to be a 'resistance movement.'

And an increasingly important side-effect is that virtually the whole resources of NATO have had to be committed to the pointless, unwinnable wars in Afghanistan and Iraq; when their proper role is (was) to maintain the 'balance of power' in Europe.

No wonder the Russians are beginning to throw their weight about. Not only did we leave the door wide open for them by virtually dismantling NATO; we surrendered the moral high ground to them by invading both Afghanistan and Iraq for no reason, and setting up puppet governments in both places. We can't complain that the Russians are now doing the same thing.
 
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:51 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
The same applies to the Ukraine.

Ukraine was heavily leaning towards NATO membership, but is now under growing pressure from Russia to abandon those plans or face a possible movement to annex Crimea. Here's an recent article from McClatchy Newspapers (dated 9/19/2008) on this disturbing topic:

"Some Ukrainian politicians worry that Russia will stoke anti-Western sentiments in Sevastopol and cities around it on the Crimean peninsula to create an opportunity to annex the area, the same way Moscow did with two breakaway provinces in Georgia last month, or at least use its considerable influence here to push the central government in Kiev to drop plans to join the European Union and NATO.

Either move would heighten the rising tensions between Russia and the United States, which have returned to Cold War levels over the past year.

Georgia and Ukraine, with American backing, angered the Russian leadership with their NATO aspirations. If they were to join, Russia's Black Sea coastline would be surrounded by members of the military organization.

Sergei Zayats, the administrator of Sevastopol's largest district, said he thought the Russians would be willing to resort to force to keep their ships docked in Crimea, where their fleet has operated since the 1780s. "The events in Georgia show that this may happen at any time," said Zayats, who was appointed by Kiev.

Russia has said it has no plans along those lines."


Source: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/52808.html

[Edited 2008-09-21 21:01:24]

[Edited 2008-09-21 21:02:30]
 
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:24 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 33):
"Some Ukrainian politicians worry that Russia will stoke anti-Western sentiments in Sevastopol and cities around it on the Crimean peninsula to create an opportunity to annex the area, the same way Moscow did with two breakaway provinces in Georgia last month, or at least use its considerable influence here to push the central government in Kiev to drop plans to join the European Union and NATO.

But according to this "Zeit" weekly article, Ukrainian ultra nationalists are actively stoking the fire by e.g. forcing members of the Russian minority to "ukrainise" their names, by banning Russian language (even though according to an Ukrainian friend of mine it is very close to Russian) etc.. The Russian minority in the Ukraine is so big that the country is practically bilingual and bi-cultural.
They also publish ultra nationalist propaganda in schoolbooks, basically stating that Ukrainian culture is superior over the one of the Russian "barbarians" and openly praise e.g. the members of the former Nazi SS division Gallizien, which consisted for a big part of Ukrainians and committed various attricities against Jews and Russians.

According to this article, the current Ukrainian president is using the support of the Ukrainian ultra nationalists, while at the same time the Russian government stirs up unrest among the Russian minority.
Nobody listens to moderates of both sides.

Jan
 
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:45 pm



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 20):
No, it's time that Moscow keeps it diplomatic word to the EU, the U.S. and the rest of the world by respecting and recognizing Georgia's territorial integrity. Russia's influence in the world is decreasing as its bullying of small neighboring nations like Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova increases.

And the USA bullying Iraq, Serbia and so on... Again, this is an indirect precedent used by both Russia and west. Face it, Abkhazia nor South Ossetia were never under Tbilisi control. Russia recognized Georgia's territorial integrity for almost 17 years, and in return Tbilisi attacked Tshinvali.
 
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:47 pm



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

A politician reneging on a promise? Like its the first time that's happened!
 
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:31 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 35):
Russia recognized Georgia's territorial integrity for almost 17 years, and in return Tbilisi attacked Tshinvali.

Wrong - and in return, Moscow armed and funded the South Ossetia mafia, I mean "separatists"....
 
soyuzavia
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:01 pm

The opening post in this thread says that Russia's decision goes against the Medvedev-Sarkozy deal. Can someone please explain what part of the plan it goes against? Because the fact is, that plan was so vaguely worded, that the Russians are full within their rights to deal with Abkhazia and South Ossetia based upon the Montevideo Convention. One may note that in the plan only the sovereignty of Georgia was mentioned, nothing was said about the territorial integrity of Georgia - both are very distinct concepts in international law.
 
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:59 pm

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Immediate entry into NATO for Georgia is now required to protect Georgia from any future Russian aggression IMHO.

Sorry indeed that we seem to be disagreeing so often, StasisLAX.

But please have a look at a map of the region. The Black Sea is completely-dominated by Russia's second biggest naval base - Sevastopol. There is no way NATO could get so much as a rowing-boat through the Sea of Marmara and the Dardanelles, and into the Black Sea, to support Georgia (or the Ukraine) without express Russian (and Turkish) permission.

Not 'impossible' - nothing is 'impossible' in military terms. But, given that we'd almost certainly be kicking off WW3, a bit of time spent in preparation - say about five years planning the venture and building up our resources to fight our way through by sheer force - would probably be time well spent.

The best - or possibly the worst - thing about the study of history (particularly military history) is that most of the ideas that occur to you have been tried before. At least once, if not several times   :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gallipoli

The British and French also tried to capture the Crimea and Sevastopol in the Crimean War, 1854-56. That was a total failure, too..........

[Edited 2008-09-23 07:06:14]
 
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:15 pm



Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 38):
Can someone please explain what part of the plan it goes against?

Russia agreed that its troops should return to pre-conflict positions - meaning outside of Georgian sovereign territory. Keeping 8000 Russian troops (far exceeding the previous number of "peacekeeping" forces in South Ossetia and Abkhazia) is the deal-breaker.
 
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:32 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
Georgia is a souvereign country. As such Georgia can join any international organisation she likes.
But a precondition for Georgia to join NATO or the EU would be that Georgia has no border disputes with other countries and also fullfills certain standards of democracy and protection of minorities. This means once Georgia accepts the loss of South Ossetia and Abkhasia, they are free to join NATO.

Nevertheless, you have to remember that everytime a former Soviet Republic joins NATO or the EU, Russia immediately starts bitching and moaning about it, because then they see themselves in danger by "Western" invaders. This kind of paranoia that goes around in the Kremlin has been there since the times of Boris Yeltsin, even though since Putin, Russia made an even bigger deal out of this. I recall complaints from Moscow about Poland and the Baltic states joining the EU, because this would effectively cut off even more the Russian exclave of Ostpreußen Kaliningrad from continental Russia, due to the surrounding borders becoming EU borders and thus subject to EU immigration and customs regulations.

Russia should just drop the act and instead of trying to go at things alone, as if they were still the Soviet Union, try to be more cooperative. They should just stop being so selfish. Granted, the EU and NATO have their flaws, but at least we're willing to cooperate, unlike Russia most of the time.
 
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:16 pm



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 40):

Russia agreed that its troops should return to pre-conflict positions - meaning outside of Georgian sovereign territory.

Did it? Care to show me where they agreed to this? I would suggest that people read the actual agreement, because there is no such agreement from Russia on this.

http://www.kremlin.ru/eng/text/speec...912type82914type82915_206283.shtml

"Point two. Russia will withdraw in full its peacekeepers from the zones adjoining South Ossetia and Abkhazia to the positions where they were stationed before the start of hostilities. This withdrawal will be carried out within ten days following the deployment of international mechanisms in these zones, including at least 200 observers from the European Union, no later than October 1, 2008, taking into account legally binding documents guaranteeing non-aggression against Abkhazia and South Ossetia. "

This doesn't state anything about "Georgian sovereign territory", or its territorial integrity. As Medvedev, Lavrov, Rogozin, Putin and Churkin have said, Georgia can forget about Abkhazia and South Ossetia being part of Georgia in future; their attacks against the civilian population in Tskhinvali (in the middle of the night, whilst people were sleeping [a war crime]), has put a complete halt to the desire of both Abkhazia and South Ossetia ever wanting to be part of a nation that will do that to them. As was opined by a Russian news outlet, "Saying to Ossetians and Abkhazes that they must live inside Georgia is paramount to telling Jews to voluntarily present themselves at the gates of a concentration camp in Nazi Europe and smilingly accept the precept that Arbeit macht frei."
 
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:25 pm



Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 42):
As was opined by a Russian news outlet, "Saying to Ossetians and Abkhazes that they must live inside Georgia is paramount to telling Jews to voluntarily present themselves at the gates of a concentration camp in Nazi Europe and smilingly accept the precept that Arbeit macht frei."

Regardless of what you think of Medvedev/Putin and Saakashvilli, you do not start a war over this, period. It's not like Georgia invaded Russia just to piss Putin off (in fact it was Russia which invaded Georgia, which is one of the reasons why many side with Georgia on this).

And forget about news from Russian media outlets, because they're under the state censorship of the Kreml and thus easily manipulated. The news are nowadays probably like the old Soviet newscast Vremya, only with a slightly more modern touch.
 
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:37 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 41):
Russia should just drop the act and instead of trying to go at things alone, as if they were still the Soviet Union, try to be more cooperative. They should just stop being so selfish. Granted, the EU and NATO have their flaws, but at least we're willing to cooperate, unlike Russia most of the time.

Riiiight, Russia should just shut the f' up and allow their security to be threatened. The Russians received assurances that there would be no eastward movement of NATO towards Russia. This promise was broken when Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were admitted. The US states that they require missile defence to protect against Iran and North Korea - instead of placing it in Azerbaijan, as offered by the Russians, they sign deals to place them in Poland and Czech Republic - making it evident that this is not for protection against Iran and North Korea (which don't have missiles capable of hitting Europe anyway), but a provocative move to threaten Russia's security. The US tells Moscow that Russia has no "special interests" in its near abroad, yet Washington openly declares that Georgia is of the US' national interest (of course being located next to Iran is why). Since the fall of the USSR, the west has lost a perfect opportunity to treat Russia as an equal partner; and they stuffed this up, and the total disregarding of Russian objections over the NATO bombing of Serbia (which is far, far, far worse that anything Russia did in Georgia), disregarding the sovereignty and territorial integrity of a UN member against Russian objections (Serbia)....the West, particularly the US has done all of this....yet Russia allows NATO to transit Russian territory for its Afghanistan war (something that very much surprised the Russian public when Putin agreed to this), has allowed the US to have bases in Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan from which to launch attacks into Afghanistan. If anything, Russia has co-operated with NATO and the EU; it's the EU and NATO which have acted unilaterally since 1991, and Medvedev has basically put his foot down and has said enoughs enough; the world will no longer be unipolar but multipolar - this is not a throw back to the USSR era, but simply stating that no longer will Russia idly sit by whilst the US runs around the world acting only in its own interests, with scant regard for the interests...I suggest the world realise that fact.
 
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:44 pm

The Russian media is easily manipulated? ALL media is easily manipulated. Do you really think the western media wasn't manipulated by Saakashvili? When he wasn't busy eating his own tie....



he was busy manipulating the media; so much so that the EU is quite pissed that he lied to them on so many levels; unlike the US which blindly led the Suckmywilly cheerleader squad. Putin made mention how even he was amazed by the strength of the western propaganda machine...and on Putin, what about the interview he gave to a German news channel, and the interview was drastically editted; so much so that the entire meaning of his answers were changed by their selective editting. So please, don't tell me that the Russian media can't be trusted, because frankly the western media isn't much better.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:56 pm



Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 44):
Riiiight, Russia should just shut the f' up and allow their security to be threatened.

Please tell me when has NATO directly threatened Russia? And don't come with the missle shield in Poland, because that's to defend itself from potential missle attacks FROM Russia.

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 44):
Since the fall of the USSR, the west has lost a perfect opportunity to treat Russia as an equal partner; and they stuffed this up, and the total disregarding of Russian objections over the NATO bombing of Serbia (which is far, far, far worse that anything Russia did in Georgia), disregarding the sovereignty and territorial integrity of a UN member against Russian objections (Serbia)....the West, particularly the US has done all of this....yet Russia allows NATO to transit Russian territory for its Afghanistan war (something that very much surprised the Russian public when Putin agreed to this), has allowed the US to have bases in Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan from which to launch attacks into Afghanistan.

Oh, please. Russia has had plenty of opportunities to be an equal partner, even join NATO but it's the selffishness of the people in charge in Moscow, along with the strong nationalism that still persists until this day that has kept Russia from dropping its post-Soviet inferiority complex once and for all. No wonder Putin wants to establish the Soviet Union MkII. Like I said, NATO and the EU are not perfect, but that doesn't make Russia better than us.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:15 am

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 44):
this is not a throw back to the USSR era, but simply stating that no longer will Russia idly sit by whilst the US runs around the world acting only in its own interests, with scant regard for the interests...I suggest the world realise that fact.

Because Russia feels that the U.S. acting unilaterally in Afghanistan and Iraq, it gives Russia the right to invade Georgia? No bull about Putin was protecting Russian citizens by handing out Russian passports to the South Ossetians - Russia has pulled the same passport stunt in Moldova, Crimea, Abkhazia, and other former Soviet controlled nations.

Perhaps NATO and Poland should be acting like Comrade Putin and "liberate" Kaliningrad from Russian military control and deport the Russian population - especially since Russian First Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov declared that since the missile defense shield systems are going to be deployed in Poland, then nuclear weapons could be deployed in Kaliningrad? Highly dangerous diplomatic language on Russia's part, IMHO.   

[Edited 2008-09-23 17:29:06]
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:44 am



Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 44):
Riiiight, Russia should just shut the f' up and allow their security to be threatened. The Russians received assurances that there would be no eastward movement of NATO towards Russia. This promise was broken when Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were admitted. The US states that they require missile defence to protect against Iran and North Korea - instead of placing it in Azerbaijan, as offered by the Russians, they sign deals to place them in Poland and Czech Republic - making it evident that this is not for protection against Iran and North Korea (which don't have missiles capable of hitting Europe anyway), but a provocative move to threaten Russia's security.

I am worried that you actually believe the BS that you post. Do you care to offer any reasonable explanation as to how exactly the Baltic states (or Czech Republic or Poland, for that matter) would be any threat to Russia's security?

Do you seriously believe that these states would actually risk total annihilation by firing missiles towards Russia? Have you looked at a map?

Or have you conveniently forgotten the, ahem, treatment that Russia dispensed to these countries a few decades ago? Care to tell us what it was like to be Latvian in 1950?

As a side note, why don't you change your flag to Russia and at least not drag Australia in your paranoia?
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Putin Disregards Pledges On Abkhazia/South Ossetia

Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:12 am



Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 42):
As Medvedev, Lavrov, Rogozin, Putin and Churkin have said, Georgia can forget about Abkhazia and South Ossetia being part of Georgia in future; their attacks against the civilian population in Tskhinvali (in the middle of the night, whilst people were sleeping [a war crime]), has put a complete halt to the desire of both Abkhazia and South Ossetia ever wanting to be part of a nation that will do that to them

Excerpts from the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/19/wo...e/19russia.html?pagewanted=2&fta=y

"Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice gave a tough speech to the German Marshall Fund in Washington, saying the West must stand up to the Kremlin’s “bullying.” And European security officials walked away from talks with Russia about a proposal to place observers in South Ossetia, the breakaway Georgian enclave, over Moscow’s refusal to allow the observers to enter the territory.

In suggesting that Russia was not averse to putting pressure on NATO members, senior Defense Department officials traveling with Mr. Gates noted that Russia was already suspected of mounting damaging computer attacks on at least one of its Baltic neighbors, Estonia, which is in NATO."

The article goes on to state; "Meanwhile, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe announced that it had abandoned talks with Russia over observers in South Ossetia.

The two sides had worked together there since 1992, and eight observers were in its capital through heavy Georgian shelling last month. Since they left, Russia has denied them access to the area, agreeing only to deploy observers in the security zone on South Ossetia’s periphery.

The OSCE has not been able to assess physical damage from the South Ossetian war, the prospects for refugee return, or the fate of several of its projects.

Another question is what remains of South Ossetia’s Georgian neighborhoods and villages, many of which were burned, razed and depopulated as Ossetians flowed back into Tskhinvali, the capital.

“This is a very human concern,” said Antti Turunen, head of the permanent mission of Finland to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe in Vienna. “Whether they will ever come back, that is the question.”


So, what about the tens of thousands of Georgians that lived in peace with their law abiding South Ossetian neighbors, where there was many marriages between Ossetians and Georgians, many children from these mixed families - all relationships that were destroyed along with the burnt-out Georgian villages in South Ossetia.

There is more than enough blame on both sides of the war to go around.

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