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EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4314
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:17 am

Just went to CNNs website and all I read is that lawmakers are now pointing fingers to place blame.

The way I see it is, STFU and get back to solving this f***in' problem. While these big babies in Washington cry over "they did it", "we didn't", "Democrats this..." or "Republicans that..." the economy goes further towards recession/depression.

Fix the damn problem and then play the your mature game of "Who really did it?". Enough playing folks. We, the people, are fed up.

:::stands off soap box:::
You can't cure stupid
 
StuckInCA
Posts: 1657
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:55 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:19 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 91):
Pelosi was an idiot to give this speech.

I think it's equally idiotic that it might have changed some Repulican's votes. The partisan BS on both sides is disgusting.

No doubt about it, Pelosi is a grade A moron. She should be sent back to the minor leagues. I doubt if anyone would miss her.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 98):
How damn greedy and short-sighted were most mortgage brokers and the overall banking industry?

My wife and I are pretty conservative with our money. When we finally decided that we'd buy a house, we went to talk to a guy at Countrywide. He asked us a few questions, copied our driver's licenses and then said we were preapproved for "pretty much whatever you want." He encouraged us to "reach" for the most house we could afford - - maybe a bit more than we were comfortable with and advised us to stretch our budget and do an ARM.

We thanked him for his time and walked out the door, never to return.

They would have easily lent us 3 or 4 times the amount we ended up borrowing (elsewhere). There's NO way we could have paid on it. No way. This was in Southern CA about 2 years ago. Refinancing would also not be an option. We'd be hopelessly under water and totally screwed.

Thankfully we're smart enough to know not to do that, but lots of people are easily overwhelmed by money and are horrible with numbers. I'm shocked how many people can't seem to do basic arithmetic.
 
StuckInCA
Posts: 1657
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:55 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:33 am



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 100):
Just went to CNNs website and all I read is that lawmakers are now pointing fingers to place blame.

The way I see it is, STFU and get back to solving this f***in' problem. While these big babies in Washington cry over "they did it", "we didn't", "Democrats this..." or "Republicans that..." the economy goes further towards recession/depression.

Fix the damn problem and then play the your mature game of "Who really did it?". Enough playing folks. We, the people, are fed up.

I couldn't agree more.

It's clear that there must be and will be some sort of intervention. The sooner someone sorts it out and makes it an organized, deliberate intervention, the better.
 
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seb146
Posts: 21430
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:06 am



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 102):
It's clear that there must be and will be some sort of intervention. The sooner someone sorts it out and makes it an organized, deliberate intervention, the better.

Why? Why should the American people give hundreds of billions of dollars that we don't have to people who pretty much lied to us and took billions from us in the first place? Why should we give hundreds of billions of dollars that are not there anyway when there are wars to pay for and bloated government to pay for? Let the market do it's thing. We, the lowly tax payer, can not afford to give anymore. We pay too much as it is. Let the Dow crash. Let the corporations go. Let's get back to the government doing government stuff instead of corporations and government being so tightly woven. Government and corporations are two different things. Just like churches, they should be separate from government.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 10531
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:17 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 99):
Or at least the real McCain's forte. I am just wondering where he has been over the past few weeks. And so does the Economist.

He's been following the advice of his moronic management team, and it's quickly killing his campaign with only weeks to go. So much for the Maverick!
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:25 am

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 98):
How damn greedy and short-sighted were most mortgage brokers and the overall banking industry?

Agree entirely, StasisLAX - but I think that you have to add to that the fact that the borrowers were at least equally 'greedy and short-sighted.' The whole crisis that 'we' face is based on an underlying mis-apprehension that house prices will always go up.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 98):
The complexity of these loans makes it difficult to forecast how many borrowers ultimately will default.

The 'Pay-Option Adjustable-Rate Mortgage' is a relatively-new invention - and certainly a remarkably-foolish one in light of recent events - but it is not incapable of valuation, since, by definition, each one relates to a specific property. The problem is that, because the rate of repayment is impossible to forecast, its true value to the lender at any one time cannot be assessed; nor can the cash flow it will generate from year to year. That's the basic reason why the banks are in so much trouble; they literally don't know how much cash they're going to get in tomorrow, let alone next month or next year....

The basic 'principles' (if you can call them that  ) of 'pay-option ARMs' are:-

1. A minimum annual repayment is preset in the agreement. A very low 'introductory rate' is often set for the first year or so.

2. Interest charges are not set at a specific rate - nor are they, as in a normal mortgage, subject to a rate set from time to time by the lender. Instead they are tied to published indexed rates - so they vary up or down depending on trends in the economy.

3. The borrower can choose to repay only at the minimum rate laid down in the agreement, or to pay at any of several 'accelerated-rate' plans (thus repaying the loan over a shorter period).

It's easy to see the thinking that influenced both parties to that sort of deal. The borrowers thought, "Hey - we can't lose on this. We repay as little as we can - then, in a year or two, we sell the house at a higher price, and use the money (and another loan) to buy an even better one." The lenders, in turn, thought, "We can't lose either. We get the business, our competitors don't. And there's no risk even if they fall down on the minimum repayments - we foreclose on them, get hold of the house, and sell it for a lot more than we lent them in the first place."

So it's greed all round, not just the brokers and the banks. All predicated on belief in a 'perpetual rising market.'

There IS a sort of solution, of course. But it can't be applied from Capitol Hill, nor can it be applied from Wall Street. Thing is, the property business is a unique field because every property is itself unique. The 'broad brush' doesn't work, all you can do is handle each case on its individual merits.

As things stand, both sides of most of these mortgages are in trouble. The sensible thing would be for them to get together, case by case, throw away the original agreement, and negotiate a compromise solution that (as far as possible) limits the damage to both of them.

[Edited 2008-09-29 20:36:32]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
StuckInCA
Posts: 1657
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:55 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:31 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 103):
Why? Why should the American people give hundreds of billions of dollars that we don't have to people who pretty much lied to us and took billions from us in the first place? Why should we give hundreds of billions of dollars that are not there anyway when there are wars to pay for and bloated government to pay for?

Fair questions. Hell if I know the answers. When I got home from work I read a bunch and watched the evening news. All I got from it is that something will probably be done. Is that a fact? Hell if I know. It may not be a large scale bailout, but I'd bet a beer that the government's going to do something.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 103):
Let the market do it's thing.

Yeah, I think we'll see a bunch more of that tomorrow. I think that within a short period of time, enough minds will be swayed by the drama unfolding that some sort of plan will come together.

Here are some options presented by U.S. News & World Report
http://biz.yahoo.com/usnews/080929/2..._next.html?.&.pf=banking-budgeting
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:54 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 103):
Why? Why should the American people give hundreds of billions of dollars that we don't have to people who pretty much lied to us and took billions from us in the first place?

Short answer, Seb146, is that if the banks 'fold,' so do we. At present the ones which are short of cash can't borrow - because the ones who still have cash won't take the risk of lending to them.

Back in 1929 the problem was immediate - people went to the bank to draw out their money and found the doors locked. Nowadays it's more likely that you'll find one day soon that your credit card's stopped working - or your boss will tell you that he's sorry, he can't pay you this month, the bank's called in his loans......

But the effect will be the same. The whole 'economy' will come to a dead stop. Nobody earning, nobody spending..........

I'd love to see guillotines set up in Times Square, Trafalgar Square, and Federation Square here in Melbourne, and lines of bankers and other 'financial geniuses' getting 'topped.' But that wouldn't keep the economic wheels turning............
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:54 am



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 105):
As things stand, both sides of most of these mortgages are in trouble. The sensible thing would be for them to get together, case by case, throw away the original agreement, and negotiate a compromise solution that (as far as possible) limits the damage to both of them.

We did that here thirty years ago, Tony, with farm foreclosures. It's still on our statute books. Any lender attempting to foreclose a farm debt of more than $20,000 must accept mandatory mediation with the debtor as the price of admission.

It's simply not in the banks' interest to have foreclosed homes on the books in a down market. The problem is that the banks are kind of doing this limbic system, lizard brain response when a customer gets the shorts. They're trained only to think of problems in terms of foreclosures.

So what we told them was, before you can proceed to foreclose you must sit down-you, the debtor, and a trained mediator-and determine if there is a workable solution that lets the bank recover more than they'd get in a foreclosure, and lets viable farm operations that can cash flow stay on the farm and continue to operate.

As a practical matter, what it did is it weeded out the loans that were never going to cash flow and let them proceed to foreclosure, but the ones that could and the debtors were willing and the banks were willing, then solutions were worked out on the spot. The people representing the banks were pretty much told, don't send anyone who doesn't have the direct authority to approve a workout agreement.

Right now the banks have a terrible problem. They wrote huge numbers of loans that'll never cash flow because the value of the underlying asset was never even close to what they lent. They're going to end up with a lot of inventory that'll have to be disposed of at fire sale prices. Their stockholders (that's us) are going to end up taking it in the shorts as a result. The banks right now are not conditioned to think in terms of loss mitigation. It's going to take them a while to come around.

All of which has me baffled when I hear people saying "Hell. Let em fail, Let em crash." That's going to hurt everyone who's got an IRA, a 401K, or money in a pension plan like millions of government employees that hold stocks as investments.

It's more lizard brain thinking. Something simply has to be done with these questionable assets so that businesses can use credit to operate which they obtain from banks. If they don't get it, jobs will be lost-a lot of them.

So it makes sense to do what we can to weed out the loans, keep as many viable ones as possible, liquidate the others and move on.

Ultimately, people will realize this. When the banks give their officers the authority to restructure loans that can save an investment on the spot, then we'll be getting somewhere.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:56 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 104):
He's been following the advice of his moronic management team, and it's quickly killing his campaign with only weeks to go. So much for the Maverick!

I believe you are right, and I think it is really bad not only for Republicans but for Americans in general (not the fact that you are right  Wink , the fact that indeed the real McCain has been AWOL).

The current McCain/Palin thread is starting to narrow down the criticism around both candidates' management team and advisors for the declining quality of the debates over the past few weeks.

You could make a case that a competent ruler, whether he/she is a manager, a high-ranking soldier or a lawmaker should know how to surround him/herself with competent people.

It's a shame because I still think both Obama and McCain are competent and keen to get things moving. I am hopeful, though, that the current turmoil will force them to get out of their shell of advisors and state clearly what they propose to do.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 106):
It may not be a large scale bailout, but I'd bet a beer that the government's going to do something.

 checkmark  Agreed. Although I do not really fancy the idea of a blank check to save people from themselves, I think we would struggle mightily without a substantial bailout effort.

What I am MUCH more concerned about is the way forward after the bailout. Basically, now what? How do we intend to either implement the rules that were overlooked prior to last month in terms of basic banking common sense (as in "there's no way you can repay such a loan so we won't give it to you"), or come up with responsible banking rules which we will strictly enforce?
 
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Dreadnought
Posts: 10202
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:25 am



Quoting Tugger (Reply 48):
Actually I would say that it's everyone who created this mess that should be held accountable for this crisis:

Politicians created this mess by artificially creating a market for sub-prime mortgages repriced at prime rates.

Before watching this video, you might want to wrap your head in duct tape to prevent your head from exploding in anger.

Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
StuckInCA
Posts: 1657
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:55 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:34 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 110):
Before watching this video, you might want to wrap your head in duct tape to prevent your head from exploding in anger.

I'd recommend something stronger. Maybe something high-tech. Kevlar or the like.

 Angry

That's it. All politicians should be banished to an island. Australia, maybe?

I do wonder though, what some of the backstory might be. If some of it could be edited to tell the story a bit differently. Looks unlikely on the surface of it.
 
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stasisLAX
Posts: 2964
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:51 am



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 109):
Ultimately, people will realize this. When the banks give their officers the authority to restructure loans that can save an investment on the spot, then we'll be getting somewhere.

I agree with your theory, but the problem is this - those risky loans weren't almost never held and serviced from the original mortgage lender. That's why their risk-management procedures allowed them to underwrite the initial loan. The originating lenders had "no skin in the game". Traditionally, people got mortgages from their local banks after a thorough assessment of their credit risk. The original lender held the mortgage, serviced the mortgage, and tried to be a good partner in the hopes that the borrower would come back to that same bank for personal loans, auto loans, and so on. These modern sub-prime mortgages were bundled together (sometime with conventional traditional mortgages) and sold to other lenders, like the major investment banks. These bundled sub-prime mortgages were then repackaged, and sold, and sold again. The so-called "toxic" mortgage debt isn't held anymore by one bank - the bad debt is held by the individual and institutional investors that bought it.

It's a capitalist society based on open and free markets - you make your own assessment on how much risk you are willing to accept (and still sleep at night) and invest according. The same goes for the mortgage borrowers. I say let the markets hit their natural (unsupported with taxpayers monies) bottom, stabilize themselves, and then repair the damage themselves. We as a nation simply cannot afford to bail-out Wall Street!
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
StuckInCA
Posts: 1657
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:55 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:57 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 112):
I say let the markets hit their natural (unsupported with taxpayers monies) bottom, stabilize themselves, and then repair the damage themselves. We as a nation simply cannot afford to bail-out Wall Street!

Is there a bottom that you'd say is too deep?

What if unemployment hits 30%, people are starving, rioting, cities are burning, etc. I don't think it would come to that, but is that OK with you if that's the "natural bottom?" I don't think the natural bottom of this would be "a tough year."

I like the ride it out idea, but I think this one's too big.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:08 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 6):
Why can we not let the markets correct themselves? Isn't this just a correction in the market?

I wish we would, the more we manipulate it the more then we end up having to continue to mess with the system.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 21):
The House Republicans killed the bill.

Bull, it was nice an bi-partisan.

Quoting Derico (Reply 22):
When that didn't pass, the IMF decided not to bailout the country, and the economy collapsed for a year. 2002 was a very horrible year.

And then the economy started recovering.

It was a good move, all economics are cyclic, and based on perception.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 63):
They have consistently overspent and overconsumed and over-tinkered with our economy for so long that now, finally, their Keynesian chickens are coming home to roost.

I am not going to throw Keynes out on his arse yet, but Hayak is a much better path to follow.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 73):
I cannot imagine how p*issed off Ms. Pelosi is right now....

Wonderful thought isn't it?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 109):
All of which has me baffled when I hear people saying "Hell. Let em fail, Let em crash." That's going to hurt everyone who's got an IRA, a 401K, or money in a pension plan like millions of government employees that hold stocks as investments.

Only if they sell before the market recovers, might be a year, might be 10 years, but I am willing to wage it will happen in the 30 years I have before I retire.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
socalfive
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 5:37 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:27 am

I've been saying it for a year now, in June I predicted it would be within six months that this economy will crash. "Bailing" these criminals out will NOT save the economy, it WILL finally deep six it. There will be a slight uptick, then the crash is coming, prepare for it. The "FED" which anyone with a half a brain knows is a private corporation that has nothing to do with the Federal government is a syndicate of Criminal banking empires that include Chase, BofA, JP Morgan, CitiBank (Rockefeller) and the Rothschild family in Great Britain. They're "Saving" us from their own friggin blunders? C'mon, get a clue, forget the Republicans VS Democrats arguments, it's all bullshit, these people are effectively transferring all wealth out of our pockets into theirs, they're ELIMINATING the true strength of American; the middle class. ALL retirements tied to the markets will be lost, ALL OF THEM. Meanwhile, the FED is pumping billions into the markets RIGHT NOW (without congressional approval because after all they own Congress) and are further diluting the value of the dollar, there is NO RESERVES, there is no money, they PRINT the money they "need" and then send us the Bill. That's how it's always been and it needs to be stopped. The BAILOUT bullshit is merely going to add another trillion (before it's over) of fake printed money created out of thin air that will go to select "interests" that will transfer the cash to gold and wait out the crash. It's coming, it can't be avoided, VOTE DOWN THE BAILOUT and let's get the crash over with WITHOUT adding to the wealth of these criminals and STOP getting your news from CNN. It's time to no longer be naive.
 
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stasisLAX
Posts: 2964
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:28 am



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 113):
Is there a bottom that you'd say is too deep?

The economy is in trouble, but the wrong economic policy could make things even worse than they already are. This bail-out has alot of independent-minded critics, both within the government and Wall Street. With general American public sentiment being very deeply divided over the proposed bailout, and the future structure of our economy at stake, Congress must stop and take a deep breath before rushing such a far-reaching plan into law. Their decision will affect far more than this week's Dow Jones and S&P averages and will not instantly undo the current credit crunch.

The financial crash is the result of a whole series of stupid federal policies that were happily manipulated by the banking and mortgage lobbies - this is how our (mostly) corrupt Congress works. Giving Washington even more authority is not a viable solution at all - it will serve to make problems even worse, IMHO. The last couple of administrations, banking lobbies, and the Congress got us into this mess along with greedy Wall Streeters - I for one am not going to trust them to get us out of it. And a large portion of responsible rational Americans feel the same way, based on the flood of calls and emails to our elected federal officials demanding that they vote "no" on the bail-out.

Last point: The Treasury Department and the Federal Reserve cannot eliminate financial losses and should not be allowed to even attempt to. The federal government can only help to shift the financial burden -- in this case, so-called "toxic" mortgage loans - from greedy, irresponsible and uninformed lenders, investors - and yes, even BORROWERS - to American taxpayers. Keeping any of these three group's "walking dead" on economic life support will only serve to slow the required market adjustments that are necessary to resolve - and move past - the current credit situation.

The federal government's highest responsibility at a time of financial crisis is to support sound financial institutions by providing them with sound national security and monetary liquidity, and nothing more in my opinion.

But I'm a Libertarian, so I am sure that some people would consider me a "radical"....

 crazy 
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:50 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 114):
Only if they sell before the market recovers, might be a year, might be 10 years, but I am willing to wage it will happen in the 30 years I have before I retire.

30 years does seem to give you a reasonable chance of getting it right, L-188. Might require some careful timing late on, though.

Past history suggests that 'corrections' tend to occur at intervals of 11-12 years on average. 1973 (oil crisis), 1987 (share market), 1997 (mainly Asia), and now 2008 (oil crisis, share market, AND Asia).  Smile

So arguably, over the rest of your working life, you're likely to have to live through further crashes in say 2019, 2030, and 2041. Better plan on keeping your retirement options open from about 2035, though, just in case the 2041 one looks like arriving a bit early!  Smile
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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keesje
Posts: 13563
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:32 am

IMO it was the widespread USA believe that consuming more and more was OK because the neighbour does too & everybody else don't understand.

And no its wasn't only politics & companies.

Now its pay day.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 21654
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:31 am



Quoting Commavia (Reply 51):
I am so thrilled by this news.

This bill was a total waste of my money.

A lot more of your money is about to be wasted. That is, if there is still such a thing as the U.S. Dollar.

And no, I don't think it's going to be replaced with the Amero.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 100):
The way I see it is, STFU and get back to solving this f***in' problem. While these big babies in Washington cry over "they did it", "we didn't", "Democrats this..." or "Republicans that..." the economy goes further towards recession/depression.

What are they supposed to do? Our government is so ineffective at this point that we couldn't save our butts from a hurricane. Oh wait... we did fail to save our own butts from a hurricane. Twice. And now a gas crisis. And now an economic crisis.

The ONLY reason I have to hope that we can avoid a violent revolution is that election day is so close.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:41 am



Quoting Socalfive (Reply 115):
I've been saying it for a year now, in June I predicted it would be within six months that this economy will crash. "Bailing" these criminals out will NOT save the economy, it WILL finally deep six it. There will be a slight uptick, then the crash is coming, prepare for it. The "FED" which anyone with a half a brain knows is a private corporation that has nothing to do with the Federal government is a syndicate of Criminal banking empires that include Chase, BofA, JP Morgan, CitiBank (Rockefeller) and the Rothschild family in Great Britain. They're "Saving" us from their own friggin blunders? C'mon, get a clue, forget the Republicans VS Democrats arguments, it's all bullshit, these people are effectively transferring all wealth out of our pockets into theirs, they're ELIMINATING the true strength of American; the middle class. ALL retirements tied to the markets will be lost, ALL OF THEM. Meanwhile, the FED is pumping billions into the markets RIGHT NOW (without congressional approval because after all they own Congress) and are further diluting the value of the dollar, there is NO RESERVES, there is no money, they PRINT the money they "need" and then send us the Bill. That's how it's always been and it needs to be stopped. The BAILOUT bullshit is merely going to add another trillion (before it's over) of fake printed money created out of thin air that will go to select "interests" that will transfer the cash to gold and wait out the crash. It's coming, it can't be avoided, VOTE DOWN THE BAILOUT and let's get the crash over with WITHOUT adding to the wealth of these criminals and STOP getting your news from CNN. It's time to no longer be naive.

Sounds about right - too many people have no clue that the FED is a private money-printing machine and not really interested to help Mr. and Mrs. Smith in their savings.
Just do some research on who is really behind the FED.. it's not so difficult to understand that we've been f.ucked for much too long-and since it's the same who vote and approve the gangsters who run the FED that impose media-pressure-it's a no-brainer to understand we are going right into the wall !
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:18 am

MUST READ white paper delivered to Congress

http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/files...ents/Final-Bailout-White-Paper.pdf

Proposed $700 Billion Bailout Is
Too Little, Too Late to End the Debt Crisis;
Too Much, Too Soon for the U.S. Bond Market
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 21654
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:48 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 114):

Bull, it was nice an bi-partisan.

Oh, I LOVE this game! It reminds me of back when Bill Clinton was impeached. At that point, about 95% of Dems voted against it and 95% of GOP voted for it.

When a reporter asked a GOP talking head about it, he said something like "It was clearly bipartisan. No fewer than 12 Democrats crossed the aisle and voted for the impeachment!"

I am not sure that there has ever been a vote 100% along party lines. That doesn't mean that there has never been a partisan vote.

The NUMBERS are that 60% of Dems were Ayes. And 70% of GOP's were Noes.

The GOP decided to stick it to Pelosi and Bush. But what they did was they stuck it to all of us. And I sincerely hope that with this next election, America sticks it to them.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:34 am

Has anyone ever heard about an Arab Bank going bust ????
Well- they do business the old fashioned way - and do a TRUE risk management.
To those of you who ever lived in an Arab country and know how people spend,it's quite different from us "Westeners" - they only spend what they have.Credits for cars and housing are a quite recent discovery in those areas-maybe that's why the local financial markets are more stable and less volatile-and I do not speak about oil-rich countries,but even those countries who don't have oil-income.Maybe the Americans should learn from the Arabs how to deal with money...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
ltbewr
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:44 am

Those Congress members that voted no were just listening to the most vocal voters in their districts, fearful of losing their re-election. Sometimes you have to shut out the voters on some issues so critical and right in the long term and vote against them. What if in the 1960's they voted against the civil rights laws for example?

Another problem here is that people want miracles. They want the government to bail them out personally for their financial bad judgment, to find the money from all of the 'rich', not have to make changes in their lifestyles, not have to pay more in taxes, get raises in pay at works, put those that sold crooked mortgages go to jail but not those that got them with fraud. People wanted huge houses, prices never going down and never accept a reasonable lifestyle.

Further making things worse, is that most of the public doesn't trust the government or it's politicians anymore, especially as they seem to only listen to the rich and corporate powers lobbyists and took their campaign contributions rather than the public. They removed protections and rules to prevent the abuses that in part led to our current problems.

This is a complicated issue that has had a generation in development. The cure will not be easy, it will mean people will have to live more frugally, more like our parents and grandparents in the 1950's to early 1970's.
 
Elite
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:07 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 123):

It was a result from the NINA loans - no income, no assets loans. Anyone could just walk into a bank and get a loan, and then they would have no way to pay it back.
 
Flighty
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:59 pm

A very interesting day in financial history.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 123):
Maybe the Americans should learn from the Arabs how to deal with money...

Oh come on... credit has its downsides but it also allows people to do things like own houses before the age of 50.

But I appreciate the notion that it is possible to run our economy without so much credit. I believe it would, in fact, be healthier.


Sometimes the hard decision -- the strong decision (like rejecting the $700B bailout) -- carries with it a little bit of pain. Less credit. But you know what, if that's capitalism, I will take it. We don't need socialist support of our over-inflated credit markets. That money was mostly going into mortgage DERIVATIVES, not mortgages as noted by a column in Time this morning by a famous UIC economist. A bailout would help derivatives gamblers but do nothing for mortgage borrowers or even lenders.

My friend got a home loan (his first) just last week. So don't tell me home loans are impossible to get. He even got a good rate. He has a decent job and banks were happy to loan him money. Maybe mortgage loans are impossible for poor people with zero income. You know what... that's a good thing.
 
sv7887
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:08 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 122):
I am not sure that there has ever been a vote 100% along party lines. That doesn't mean that there has never been a partisan vote.

The NUMBERS are that 60% of Dems were Ayes. And 70% of GOP's were Noes.

The GOP decided to stick it to Pelosi and Bush. But what they did was they stuck it to all of us. And I sincerely hope that with this next election, America sticks it to them.

Give me a break....Dems have the MAJORITY in Congress. What's the excuse for Pelosi not getting 40% of her own members in line on this? Those who voted against it (both GOP AND DNC) are running in tight elections.

It's pure politics on BOTH sides..

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 124):
Those Congress members that voted no were just listening to the most vocal voters in their districts, fearful of losing their re-election. Sometimes you have to shut out the voters on some issues so critical and right in the long term and vote against them. What if in the 1960's they voted against the civil rights laws for example?

That's exactly what is going on...

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 124):
Another problem here is that people want miracles. They want the government to bail them out personally for their financial bad judgment, to find the money from all of the 'rich', not have to make changes in their lifestyles, not have to pay more in taxes, get raises in pay at works, put those that sold crooked mortgages go to jail but not those that got them with fraud. People wanted huge houses, prices never going down and never accept a reasonable lifestyle.

It was part government policy that started this mess (Barney Frank, the expansion of the CRA, etc), but you're 100% right..Greed took over from there.

There is no "Main Street" and "Wall Street" it is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Over 50% of Americans have money invested in the stock market. Most Americans have credit card debt, a mortgage, a car payment. Most companies borrow from the capital markets. What's going to happen to companies like GM, Ford, Chrysler, American, and United that rely heavily on those "evil" banks for credit to run their business?
 
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moo
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:14 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 127):
What's the excuse for Pelosi not getting 40% of her own members in line on this?

Maybe they don't like the plan?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:16 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 122):

The GOP decided to stick it to Pelosi and Bush. But what they did was they stuck it to all of us. And I sincerely hope that with this next election, America sticks it to them.

Wrong. The GOP hard-liners, voting ideologically and nothing else as they may have been, were in the right on this one. Why should any of us be paying more than we already have and will when there are better ways of going about this?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 126):
Oh come on... credit has its downsides but it also allows people to do things like own houses before the age of 50.

What is that, an American birthright? We need to get off this tired notion of homeownership being the end-all be-all achievement in American life.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 126):
But you know what, if that's capitalism, I will take it.

Amen to that. There are better solutions that have been proposed anyway - Washington's just too bull-headed to consider them where they won't benefit their friends and Ivy League classmates first.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
md80fanatic
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:24 pm



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 113):
What if unemployment hits 30%, people are starving, rioting, cities are burning, etc. I don't think it would come to that, but is that OK with you if that's the "natural bottom?" I don't think the natural bottom of this would be "a tough year."

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I think it is high time the US faces such a challenge. It would benefit everyone to actually learn to be self-sufficient again. Do you think the Amish are squirming because of a wall street downfall? Nah....life goes on there without a hiccup.

We have forgotten how to grow food, slaughter livestock, construct buildings, hunt, fix machines.....the women are frail and the men are heading in that direction too. We are ripe for conquest.....and that is NOT what being an American is supposed to be.

Rather than watching reality TV, we need to return to a reality lifestyle else someone somewhere will be able tell us to jump.....and we will have no other option but to say how high.
 
sv7887
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:27 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 129):

Quoting Flighty (Reply 126):
Oh come on... credit has its downsides but it also allows people to do things like own houses before the age of 50.

What is that, an American birthright? We need to get off this tired notion of homeownership being the end-all be-all achievement in American life.

This was the crux of the problem, between the expansion of the F Twins, suing banks to make them give loans to poor homebuyers, and irresponsible banks and people with this sense of entitlement.

I walked into a car dealership the other day. I was offered a ridiculous loan more or less on the spot..They kept asking me what my credit score was..I have a good one, but doesn't mean I actually have the means to pay for a large loan. What would happen if I lost my job tomorrow? It would make more sense for them to ask for a letter from my employer confirming I am employed and make an eligible salary in addition to my credit score.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 129):
Quoting Flighty (Reply 126):
But you know what, if that's capitalism, I will take it.

Amen to that. There are better solutions that have been proposed anyway - Washington's just too bull-headed to consider them where they won't benefit their friends and Ivy League classmates first.

What are the other viable options out there? Let the market work is one, but I cringe at the thought of people getting ready to retire seeing their 401Ks wiped out by this one. At least I have another 30 yrs to go, but what becomes of the elderly?
 
Flighty
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:37 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 129):
What is that, an American birthright? We need to get off this tired notion of homeownership being the end-all be-all achievement in American life.

No, it's a healthy credit market. Some credit is healthy. Rational humans do choose to borrow money. This is their choice. Let's say for example you need to borrow $3,000 to buy life-saving medication so you can continue working. Or, let's say you want to borrow for a mortgage for a place to live. Both are healthy. It is called consumption smoothing.

There is a reason money lending has been around for thousands of years. It leads to higher economic activity and greater survival. Countries that have outlawed money lending (due to Islamic law for example) have suffered bitterly.
 
Flighty
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:41 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 131):
but what becomes of the elderly?

Elderly Americans are generally very wealthy people, compared to others on this planet. I guess they will be fine.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 129):
Washington's just too bull-headed to consider them where they won't benefit their friends and Ivy League classmates first.


Ahahaha... agree with this!!
 
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RayChuang
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:47 pm

In my humble opinion, the US$700 bailout plan as it current stands is a horrible idea.  thumbsdown 

A better solution should be this five-point plan:

1) Create the equivalent of the Resolution Trust Corporation to buy up and sell off in an organized manner all the bad mortgage loans.
2) Temporarily suspend the mark-to-market valuation section of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act (that right there would clean up 80% of the mess, according to some estimates).
3) Impose strict margin requirements on any derivative or hedge fund trade--30% at minimum. That right there will discourage the type of out-of-control speculation that drove up the price of oil to ridiculous levels earlier this year and drove down the price of financial stocks through naked short selling recently.
4) Break up both Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae into 12 competing companies that have NO direct Federal involvement.
5) In the longer run, throw out our current Federal income tax system and start over from scratch with the consumption-based FairTax system.
 
mt99
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:52 pm

Why blame Republicans or Democrats? Its the people who do not want it. The ones that called into their representative and told them to vote "no"
Step into my office, baby
 
md80fanatic
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:52 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 132):
There is a reason money lending has been around for thousands of years. It leads to higher economic activity and greater survival. Countries that have outlawed money lending (due to Islamic law for example) have suffered bitterly.

It also leads to usury. A well-educated populace is a check against this thievery. Is that really the case in the USA? Are we well educated enough to avoid the pitfalls of unrestricted lending? Apparently not. You won't hear a peep from Wall Street on this point, that's for sure.

The only ones defending the latest trends in lending are those in a position to profit the most from them. This constitutes about 3% of the population, while the other 97% lose big time. It's not really a coincidence that those top 3% also hold positions of power in government and finance.

The less well-off countries are perfectly happy in their lives.....not particularly anxious to become like the good ole' USA (in fact they are probably getting a laugh out of the hopeless situation we are in).....life goes on there without a hitch. So they don't have the latest iPods, or plasma TVs....they really could care less about those gadgets.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:56 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 131):

What are the other viable options out there? Let the market work is one, but I cringe at the thought of people getting ready to retire seeing their 401Ks wiped out by this one. At least I have another 30 yrs to go, but what becomes of the elderly?

Just one option:

http://www.rgemonitor.com/roubini-mo...me_home_owners_mortgage_enterprise

And another: (see 'Opportunities Lost' at bottom)

http://www.rgemonitor.com/us-monitor/253806/panic
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
baroque
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:56 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 109):
All of which has me baffled when I hear people saying "Hell. Let em fail, Let em crash." That's going to hurt everyone who's got an IRA, a 401K, or money in a pension plan like millions of government employees that hold stocks as investments.

Too many video games Dougloid. Some think that consequences can be undone by pressing the "Play again" button. Just a week of living with the outcome would bring most around to backing even that plan - you have to suspect.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 107):
Short answer, Seb146, is that if the banks 'fold,' so do we. At present the ones which are short of cash can't borrow - because the ones who still have cash won't take the risk of lending to them.

It reminds me of the supposed story of a plane taking off from Heathrow that lost some power and advised the tower that it was not going to turn to avoid passing over Windsor Castle and would dump fuel. The tower was supposed to be upset and advised against this as Her Majesty was in residence. Ask Her Majesty whether she wants the plane AND the gas, or just the gas?

There are many complaints at the "cost" of the bail out, but not much acceptance of the real costs of not doing it. They should pay the 700 billion and then start working out how to fix the rest of the bad debt within the overall 41 trillion - probably a total of about 3 trillion. That is what to get upset about, not a "measly 700 billion".

Quoting L-188 (Reply 114):
but Hayak is a much better path to follow.

Is that the Hayek of whom Wiki reports?
The libertarian economist Walter Block has observed critically that while the The Road to Serfdom {by Hayek} makes a strong case against centrally-planned economies, it appears only lukewarm in its support of pure laissez-faire capitalism, with Hayek even going so far as to say that "probably nothing has done so much harm to the liberal cause as the wooden insistence of some liberals on certain rules of thumb, above all of the principle of laissez-faire capitalism" [8]. In the book, Hayek writes that the government has a role to play in the economy through the monetary system, work-hours regulation, social welfare, and institutions for the flow of proper information.

While Friedman might not have recommended it, Hayek presumably would have backed the 700 billion plan???

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 111):
That's it. All politicians should be banished to an island. Australia, maybe?

Thanks for the kind offer Stuckin, but as you know voting is compulsory in Aus, and we all had a quick electronic vote and decided you could use your Username for the location of your pollies, we have our own lot thanks very much.  Big grin And there are other spots than CA for sticking them! Skippy was especially insistent.
 
Dougloid
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:01 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 126):
My friend got a home loan (his first) just last week. So don't tell me home loans are impossible to get. He even got a good rate. He has a decent job and banks were happy to loan him money. Maybe mortgage loans are impossible for poor people with zero income. You know what... that's a good thing.


As a point of information I have an errand to run at the credit union today, so I intend to ask the guy who put together our house loan in March whether we'd get the same thing today. Our credit's very good, we pay our bills on time, and we have one credit card that gets paid off every month, usually about 15 or 20 dollars. I think it helped that the Dragon Lady works for the state.

It was our second house but might as well have been our first because the first was back in 1985.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 130):
We have forgotten how to grow food, slaughter livestock, construct buildings, hunt, fix machines.....the women are frail and the men are heading in that direction too. We are ripe for conquest.....and that is NOT what being an American is supposed to be.

Rather than watching reality TV, we need to return to a reality lifestyle else someone somewhere will be able tell us to jump.....and we will have no other option but to say how high.

Not all of us, friend, not all of us.

Fact is, self reliance and learning the mechanical arts is proving to be a smart economic choice for a lot of people who never lost sight of the utility of it. Recent events have proved it.

We're told that West Des Moines faces a lot of exposure because many of the people there work in financial services. Maybe if people in those industries had not looked down their noses at people who do honest work and told their kids there's nothing wrong and a lot right about being a mechanic, a baker, a chef or a gardener we wouldn't be in the pickle we're in.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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Aaron747
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:17 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 139):
Maybe if people in those industries had not looked down their noses at people who do honest work

As my grandmother taught me from, oh, 8 maybe: "anybody who works in a job moving money around all day isn't doing honest work"

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 134):
2) Temporarily suspend the mark-to-market valuation section of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act (that right there would clean up 80% of the mess, according to some estimates).

3) Impose strict margin requirements on any derivative or hedge fund trade--30% at minimum. That right there will discourage the type of out-of-control speculation that drove up the price of oil to ridiculous levels earlier this year and drove down the price of financial stocks through naked short selling recently.

That'd all almost be funny if it weren't so damned necessary and serious. Trouble is, who can we find in the halls of Congress to get all that done?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
baroque
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:53 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 140):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 139):
Maybe if people in those industries had not looked down their noses at people who do honest work

As my grandmother taught me from, oh, 8 maybe: "anybody who works in a job moving money around all day isn't doing honest work"

And ban those buggers from calling their shonky practices "products". That law should also apply to telephone companies. Telstra here has just revised something to do with prices, but after reading their website I have no idea what has been changed to which.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 134):
2) Temporarily suspend the mark-to-market valuation section of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act (that right there would clean up 80% of the mess, according to some estimates).

So mark to market is OK only when said market is going up. What you write is correct, but are you decreeing that markets are only allowed to go up? If not, exactly what are you going to decree by doing that? That cure might be worse than the disease.

You do recall why Sarbanes Oxley was put into law?
 
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Revelation
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:52 pm



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 55):
I'm still grappling with why saying no to this is a good thing despite the fact that it "feels" bad. What's the alternative hold that is so desirable?

My big problem is that the government (i.e. you and me) ends up holding the paper for the properties and ends up having to decide how much they are worth and how much to sell them for. Talk about a process that is exposed to corruption. I've heard a few interviews with economists, and at best, the gov't should loan money to the institutions and let them unwind the bad debt themselves otherwise they'll never learn. It's a terrible precident to just dump the debt on the taxpayers.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 101):
They would have easily lent us 3 or 4 times the amount we ended up borrowing (elsewhere). There's NO way we could have paid on it. No way. This was in Southern CA about 2 years ago. Refinancing would also not be an option. We'd be hopelessly under water and totally screwed.

Thankfully we're smart enough to know not to do that, but lots of people are easily overwhelmed by money and are horrible with numbers. I'm shocked how many people can't seem to do basic arithmetic.

Yes, and the system expects the PROFESSIONALS writing the loans to be able to do the math and not expose their employers to such risks, but it all broke down.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 105):
The whole crisis that 'we' face is based on an underlying mis-apprehension that house prices will always go up.

 checkmark 

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 105):
The problem is that, because the rate of repayment is impossible to forecast, its true value to the lender at any one time cannot be assessed; nor can the cash flow it will generate from year to year. That's the basic reason why the banks are in so much trouble; they literally don't know how much cash they're going to get in tomorrow, let alone next month or next year....

 checkmark 

Nor will the government know.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 109):
Right now the banks have a terrible problem. They wrote huge numbers of loans that'll never cash flow because the value of the underlying asset was never even close to what they lent. They're going to end up with a lot of inventory that'll have to be disposed of at fire sale prices. Their stockholders (that's us) are going to end up taking it in the shorts as a result. The banks right now are not conditioned to think in terms of loss mitigation. It's going to take them a while to come around.

And if the government does it for them, they'll never learn.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 112):
It's a capitalist society based on open and free markets - you make your own assessment on how much risk you are willing to accept (and still sleep at night) and invest according. The same goes for the mortgage borrowers. I say let the markets hit their natural (unsupported with taxpayers monies) bottom, stabilize themselves, and then repair the damage themselves. We as a nation simply cannot afford to bail-out Wall Street!

I tend to agree. The current bailout is a one-way flow from taxpayers to Wall Street. We have to come up with something better. As it stands, the current bailout is about as well thought-out as the plan to invade Iraq.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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RayChuang
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:55 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 140):
That'd all almost be funny if it weren't so damned necessary and serious. Trouble is, who can we find in the halls of Congress to get all that done?

We can suspend the mark-to-market valuation by Presidential Executive Order--and it could happen very soon. As for the 30% margin requirements, remember when the hedge fund managers drove up the price of oil and drove down the price of financial stocks they did it on a 5 percent margin requirement; by bumping it up to 30% that right there drives out most of the speculators except those with really deep pockets. The change in the margin requirements can be done through the SEC.
 
EA772LR
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:07 pm

THANKS TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY FOR OUR CURRENT SITUATION WITH FANNIE/FREDDIE..GOOD JOB! What a disgrace  banghead 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:05 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 142):
I tend to agree. The current bailout is a one-way flow from taxpayers to Wall Street. We have to come up with something better. As it stands, the current bailout is about as well thought-out as the plan to invade Iraq.

So the stock market dropped 778 points yesterday, and then turned around and gained 485 points today on the mere speculation that the Congress will somehow approve the bail-out package this week. President Bush stated that the drop yesterday cause the lost of $1 trillion dollars of wealth. Good. That's the upchuck that the market needs to help find its natural bottom and begin the process of SELF healing.

Bush stated this morning that "Our economy is depending on decisive action from the government. The sooner we address the problem, the sooner we can get back on the path of growth and job creation." Why is the federal government doing what free enterprise and open markets should do naturally themselves, over any given period of time? This manipulation of the markets known as the bail-out bill absolutely does not guarantee that the credit crisis will end - what reassurances does the banking sector provide to the American taxpayers that this will benefit average Americans? Will this make solid mortgage lending easier? Will this help small business that are good risks to get the money they need for expansion or daily operations? There are absolutely NO guarantees whatsoever that the banking sector will take this steps.

So now, the market has rebounded, the Federal Reserve is injecting more cash into monetary systems both domestically and abroad, and there's talk of a substantial cut in the Fed funds rate in October. I think that the Federal Reserves actions are more than enough at this time. Kill the bail-out bill, Congress - it will only serve as a band-aid and not solve the longer-time needs of Main Street. And the American public needs to continue its pressure on our federal elected officials to vote NO on the bail-out bill - or vote those politicians in the House and Senate that do support it out of office at the first available election.  irked 
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
EMBQA
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:08 pm



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 144):

EVERYONE needs to watch this and listen to what was said...and by whom.....
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
EA772LR
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:11 pm



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 145):
And the American public needs to continue its pressure on our federal elected officials to vote NO on the bail-out bill - or vote those politicians in the House and Senate that do support it out of office at the first available election. irked

God Bless you! Words of wisdom...actaully just common sense! Nice post  checkmark 
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:12 pm



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 145):
This manipulation of the markets known as the bail-out bill absolutely does not guarantee that the credit crisis will end - what reassurances does the banking sector provide to the American taxpayers that this will benefit average Americans? Will this make solid mortgage lending easier? Will this help small business that are good risks to get the money they need for expansion or daily operations? There are absolutely NO guarantees whatsoever that the banking sector will take this steps.

There are no guarantees, but I think some sort of "bailout" is required to do the things you mention.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 145):
So now, the market has rebounded, the Federal Reserve is injecting more cash into monetary systems both domestically and abroad, and there's talk of a substantial cut in the Fed funds rate in October.

The market rebounded because people are anticipating a revised bailout plan.

Rates for bank to bank lending went up today. A surge in the DOW shouldn't make you think that a little Fed injection is going to make this all go away.
 
md80fanatic
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:24 pm



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 144):
THANKS TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY FOR OUR CURRENT SITUATION WITH FANNIE/FREDDIE..GOOD JOB!

Hard for me to defend Democrats.....but it needs to be done. None of this is their fault....nor is it the Republicans fault.....it's OUR fault for trading our independence for easy cash. Now that the cash is not so easy to come by.....what do Americans do? They point fingers. All we had to do was say NO to easy home loans.....like the wise person (and his wife) somewhere above described yesterday.

Wanna lose the shackles? Work for what is eternal, and not for what is temporal. What is in your brain you can barter with, if the need arises. What is in your wallet has a contrived value, which depends on what others assign to it. As long as you toil for cash, you will always be a slave to those who possess real wealth. That wealth is knowledge....which can never be taken from you.
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