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Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:06 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 296):
The relative performance does not seem to correlate with net debt, or not so far

FWIW, our public debt is really not that large. Sure, $8 trillion is a lot... for an average country. For us it is less than it was during the 1950s, when it was a greater percentage of GDP (i.e., a more serious debt given our income).

Here's a nice essay about it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17050732/
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:55 pm

The debt is far, far larger than I'm comfortable with and we're going in the wrong direction. When does it become a "problem"?

Here's another way of looking at it, external debt per USD of GDP. We are 51st on the hit parade as of June 2007. I've listed the Top 75.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ec...rgdp-economy-debt-external-per-gdp

Quote:
#1 Ireland: $7.58 per $1 of GDP
#2 Liberia: $7.14 per $1 of GDP
#3 São Tomé and Príncipe: $5.13 per $1 of GDP
#4 United Kingdom: $3.87 per $1 of GDP
#5 Guinea-Bissau: $3.36 per $1 of GDP
#6 Netherlands: $3.29 per $1 of GDP
#7 Belgium: $3.01 per $1 of GDP
#8 Switzerland: $3.00 per $1 of GDP
#9 Hong Kong: $2.90 per $1 of GDP
#10 Austria: $2.05 per $1 of GDP
#11 Mauritania: $1.84 per $1 of GDP
#12 Burundi: $1.83 per $1 of GDP
#13 France: $1.73 per $1 of GDP
#14 Sweden: $1.73 per $1 of GDP
#15 Denmark: $1.67 per $1 of GDP
#16 Portugal: $1.62 per $1 of GDP
#17 Spain: $1.61 per $1 of GDP
#18 Guyana: $1.53 per $1 of GDP
#19 Congo, Democratic Republic of the: $1.52 per $1 of GDP
#20 Sudan: $1.52 per $1 of GDP
#21 Gambia, The: $1.52 per $1 of GDP
#22 Sierra Leone: $1.50 per $1 of GDP
#23 Greece: $1.48 per $1 of GDP
#24 Germany: $1.44 per $1 of GDP
#25 Lebanon: $1.43 per $1 of GDP
#26 Norway: $1.40 per $1 of GDP
#27 Latvia: $1.39 per $1 of GDP
#28 Finland: $1.35 per $1 of GDP
#29 Kazakhstan: $1.32 per $1 of GDP
#30 Laos: $1.32 per $1 of GDP
#31 Estonia: $1.29 per $1 of GDP
#32 Qatar: $1.26 per $1 of GDP
#33 Italy: $1.17 per $1 of GDP
#34 Congo, Republic of the: $1.14 per $1 of GDP
#35 Kyrgyzstan: $1.13 per $1 of GDP
#36 Belize: $1.10 per $1 of GDP
#37 Hungary: $1.08 per $1 of GDP
#38 Madagascar: $1.05 per $1 of GDP
#39 Bulgaria: $1.01 per $1 of GDP
#40 Togo: $0.97 per $1 of GDP
#41 Croatia: $0.97 per $1 of GDP
#42 Australia: $0.93 per $1 of GDP
#43 Jamaica: $0.92 per $1 of GDP
#44 Mongolia: $0.91 per $1 of GDP
#45 Slovenia: $0.90 per $1 of GDP
#46 Bhutan: $0.88 per $1 of GDP
#47 Seychelles: $0.88 per $1 of GDP
#48 Uruguay: $0.87 per $1 of GDP
#49 Nicaragua: $0.86 per $1 of GDP
#50 Guinea: $0.86 per $1 of GDP
#51 United States: $0.86 per $1 of GDP
#52 Moldova: $0.83 per $1 of GDP
#53 Zambia: $0.82 per $1 of GDP
#54 Marshall Islands: $0.80 per $1 of GDP
#55 Cambodia: $0.80 per $1 of GDP
#56 Central African Republic: $0.80 per $1 of GDP
#57 Grenada: $0.80 per $1 of GDP
#58 Dominica: $0.79 per $1 of GDP
#59 Saint Kitts and Nevis: $0.79 per $1 of GDP
#60 Côte d'Ivoire: $0.78 per $1 of GDP
#61 Slovakia: $0.77 per $1 of GDP
#62 Rwanda: $0.76 per $1 of GDP
#63 Honduras: $0.76 per $1 of GDP
#64 Bahrain: $0.76 per $1 of GDP
#65 Ukraine: $0.75 per $1 of GDP
#66 Ethiopia: $0.75 per $1 of GDP
#67 Panama: $0.72 per $1 of GDP
#68 Argentina: $0.72 per $1 of GDP
#69 Canada: $0.70 per $1 of GDP
#70 Israel: $0.70 per $1 of GDP
#71 Solomon Islands: $0.69 per $1 of GDP
#72 Niger: $0.68 per $1 of GDP
#73 Lithuania: $0.68 per $1 of GDP
#74 Bolivia: $0.67 per $1 of GDP
#75 Jordan: $0.65 per $1 of GDP


[Edited 2008-10-06 15:17:50]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 10630
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:59 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 301):

Here's another way of looking at it, external debt per USD of GDP. We are 51st on the hit parade as of June 2007. I've listed the Top 75.

And yet another way of looking at it is that some of our largest creditors are nowhere to be found on that list.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
socalfive
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 5:37 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:30 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 298):
The problem with conspiracy theories is that even if they are true,people don't believe in them.. That simply shows the overriding power of our media- which, by themselves -are part of the conspiracy..
But then- that again ,would be called a stupid conspiracy theory..
The same groups that pull the strings on finance also pull the strings on media.

EXACTLY RIGHT

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 299):
Yes, the only way such a wide ranging looting could be pulled off, to have a skillfully crafted "matrix" built overtop of the "real" economy that projects all the "normal signposts" of financial health, while the system is in fact on life support and the priests have been called in for last rites.

EXACTLY RIGHT AGAIN
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:42 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 302):
And yet another way of looking at it is that some of our largest creditors are nowhere to be found on that list.

Wouldn't that be expected?  Wink

Please note France's royal 13th place. Considering French government's debt amounts to 65% of France's GDP, and the country's scary and plunging trade deficit, I would not call that a surprise at all...  sarcastic 
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 21661
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:49 pm

OK. I supported the bailout plan. Now the Dow just broke 10,000 in the wrong direction for the first time in a VERY long time.

I'm beginning to think I was wrong. Of course, we can never know if I was wrong or not, because maybe it would have been worse had it not passed. But I am definitely beginning to think I was wrong.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:15 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 305):
I'm beginning to think I was wrong. Of course, we can never know if I was wrong or not, because maybe it would have been worse had it not passed. But I am definitely beginning to think I was wrong.

What makes you think the Dow has any connection with....errrrrrrrrr....much of anything there Doc?

The Dow is kind of like the lemming-o-meter, methinks.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:30 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 305):
I'm beginning to think I was wrong. Of course, we can never know if I was wrong or not, because maybe it would have been worse had it not passed. But I am definitely beginning to think I was wrong.

Not a time for second thoughts Doc, no way to prove it, but it could and WOULD have been even worse.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 302):
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 301):

Here's another way of looking at it, external debt per USD of GDP. We are 51st on the hit parade as of June 2007. I've listed the Top 75.

And yet another way of looking at it is that some of our largest creditors are nowhere to be found on that list.

In particular you largest recipient of aid is better off!!

Is there a reason that link will not work Lumberton? I wanted to see the date to recalculate the Aus figure to todays exchange rate - we are probably about 20 places higher (worse) after the last month. Talk about a fluid situation.

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 303):
Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 299):
Yes, the only way such a wide ranging looting could be pulled off, to have a skillfully crafted "matrix" built overtop of the "real" economy that projects all the "normal signposts" of financial health, while the system is in fact on life support and the priests have been called in for last rites.

EXACTLY RIGHT AGAIN

That link I provided a while ago about the Florida mortgage agents and their criminal records also had the phrase that the "perpetrators of the various schemes expected to be able to cut and run before midnight struck and they all turned into pumpkins and mice". Which suggests they knew what the results would be.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:36 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 305):
OK. I supported the bailout plan. Now the Dow just broke 10,000 in the wrong direction for the first time in a VERY long time.



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 306):
What makes you think the Dow has any connection with....errrrrrrrrr....much of anything there Doc?

Yes - no-one need expect share prices in general necessarily to stop falling - still less to resume the too-rapid upward path they have followed for the last few years - for quite a while. On past experience, not for a year or two. Shares and investment funds are basically part of the same market, and shares in particular have been the subject of ridiculous levels of speculation and inflationary growth in recent years.

One bit of good news, though. It looks as if the banks are setting avbout that 'mortgage re-negotiation' path we discussed earlier on:-

"Bank of America has agreed to rework the terms of up to 400,000 distressed mortgages nationwide starting Dec. 1 to settle lawsuits and investigations pending against one of its subsidiaries.

"Bank of America will suspend foreclosure proceedings against borrowers who are likely to qualify.

"About 8,000 homeowners in Virginia, 7,000 in Maryland and 500 in the District could benefit, said Dan Frahm, a Bank of America spokesman. The settlement covers customers whose accounts are managed by Countrywide, even if they originally took out the loan from another lender.

---------------

"Under the deal, the first-year payments of principal, interest, taxes and insurance will be targeted to equal 34 percent of the borrower's income, or 25 percent of income for borrowers for whom taxes and insurance are not escrowed.

---------------

"The modification plan is more aggressive than the one recently started by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. after it took over California-based IndyMac and decided to restructure 25,000 loans, said Benjamin Diehl, a California deputy attorney general.

--------------

"For instance, the FDIC deferred principal payments on option adjustable-rate mortgages, whereas Bank of America agreed to permanently lower the principal on those loans, Diehl said. Borrowers can also get an interest rate reduction on top of that."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...R2008100601150_2.html?hpid=topnews

The 'new' (and very welcome) point is that these proposed deals will not only 're-schedule' repayments but also reduce the principal outstanding. To my mind that's essential in today's special circumstances.

Huh - "Stop the presses!" - here comes the bad news. The Reserve Bank of Australia just cut our basic interest rate by a full percentage point, from 7% to 6%. That strikes me as a 'panic measure' - and most unwise on the face of it.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
CupraIbiza
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:55 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:04 am



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 308):
Huh - "Stop the presses!" - here comes the bad news. The Reserve Bank of Australia just cut our basic interest rate by a full percentage point, from 7% to 6%. That strikes me as a 'panic measure' - and most unwise on the face of it.

Lets hope its a panic measure. The other option is the latest stats that the RBA are looking at with are far far less "robust" than we have been told and our "strong economy" is actually heading for the crapper.

Last time the RBA slashed by 1% in a single bound was 1992.....You know the one "we had to have"
Everyday is a gift…… but why does it have to be a pair of socks?
 
Derico
Posts: 4317
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:11 am

Wow, I just checked the exchange rates and last summer the Brazilian real was at 1.59 for a dollar, and the Chilean peso was at 480 per dollar.

Now it's at 2.21 reals per dollar and and 590 chileans!!!

Considering the argentine peso has stayed at around 3.15 for the last year, if things stay like this argentines are going to find the beaches of those countries cheap for the first time in almost a decade!
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:48 am



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 309):
Last time the RBA slashed by 1% in a single bound was 1992.....You know the one "we had to have"

It certainly explained the 5 c drop in the Aus $ overnight, but does that not smack of a bit of a leak?

It might be best to put on blinkers and ear muffs for a month, but then it might take another two months to "catch up again".

You can only say, "What next?"
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:12 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 311):
It certainly explained the 5 c drop in the Aus $ overnight, but does that not smack of a bit of a leak?

Not even a leak, Baroque - they practically 'announced' it last week (see Post 183 above). But only 0,25%-0.5% was expected.

Of all places, Iceland appears to be the first place facing a true 'meltdown'..............

"Iceland had ousted Norway from the head of the UN's league table of 177 countries that compared per-capita income, education, health care and life expectancy – which, at 80.55 years for males, was third highest in the world.

"This was only one in a string of glowing assessments of a country (population 313,000) which had pulled off a modern-day economic miracle. No wonder they are also said to be the happiest people on the planet. The inhabitants of this newly discovered Utopia, with its much-admired free health and education systems, bought the most books, owned most mobile telephones per head, and included the highest proportion of working women in the world.

"Iceland had also presided over the fastest expansion of a banking system anywhere in the world. Little did anyone know that the expansion once so admired would go on to saddle the country with liabilities in excess of $100 billion – liabilities that now dwarf its gross domestic product of $14 billion.

"Iceland overreached itself in spectacular fashion, and the party is coming to a messy end.

"Yesterday, trading in the shares of six major financial institutions was suspended as the government sought to avert meltdown."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...celands-dreams-go-up-in-smoke.html

This paragraph is interesting. Their government's reaction is precisely the opposite of our own one's............

"Meanwhile, Icelandic interest rates have been catapulted to 15.5 per cent, peaks not seen in Britain since Black Wednesday, in an attempt to rein in inflation. The krona's freefall on the international currency markets is surpassed only by the catastrophic failure of Zimbabwean currency."

The late Milton Friedman has a lot to answer for. I hope that a squad of angels is, at this very moment, telling him to collect his belongings and move to a much smaller, harder, dirtier cloud than the one he's been sitting on since he died.......with lots of Icelandic neighbours.  Smile
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:38 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 307):
Is there a reason that link will not work Lumberton? I wanted to see the date to recalculate the Aus figure to todays exchange rate - we are probably about 20 places higher (worse) after the last month. Talk about a fluid situation.

Just checked it and it works fine for me. Maybe if you cut and paste in your browser? If you still can't get it running, give me a shout.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:58 am

I am not sure if this was posted before...

http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2008/20081006150152.aspx

Knock Out: CNBC Confirms Lehman CEO Punched at Gym

Network verifies reports Richard Fuld was attacked for financial institution's bankruptcy.

It seems anxiety from the financial crisis is reaching new highs, but the tipping point for one individual came at the Lehman Brothers gym in the midst of the company’s collapse.

 bigmouth 
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:19 am



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 312):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 311):
It certainly explained the 5 c drop in the Aus $ overnight, but does that not smack of a bit of a leak?

Not even a leak, Baroque - they practically 'announced' it last week (see Post 183 above). But only 0,25%-0.5% was expected.

Well up to 0.5% expected, but overnight, the A$ went down another 6%, seems like someone knew 1.0% was coming as the 0.5% had been built in already.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 313):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 307):
Is there a reason that link will not work Lumberton? I wanted to see the date to recalculate the Aus figure to todays exchange rate - we are probably about 20 places higher (worse) after the last month. Talk about a fluid situation.

Just checked it and it works fine for me. Maybe if you cut and paste in your browser? If you still can't get it running, give me a shout.

Thanks, yes it does now. I think the site must have died when I tried. Oddly passive NO it was giving. There certainly are some odd things about the list. I wonder where Aus is now after the 6% drop in the exchange rate mentioned above - later bounce back of 2 to 3 %.

Interesting times as they say!
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:40 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 315):
Interesting times as they say!

Yair - don't think we've seen the half of it yet........

"Beforehand, there had been rumours of a possible £50bn injection into the banking sector. There was talk that three banks - Royal Bank of Scotland, Barclays and the combined HBOS and Lloyds TSB - would receive capital injections of up to £50bn........."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...7/royalbankofscotlandgroup.banking

Sudden vision of walking along Threadneedle Street in the City of London and seeing lots of unshaven bankers sitting on the pavement in their pinstripe trousers and black jackets, holding out their bowler hats and saying, "Buddy, can you spare a dime....?" Or whatever the British equivalent is nowadays.

Still remember my professional institute having a retired Chancellor of the Exchequer (British term for "Treasurer'), Sir Peter Thorneycroft, as a guest speaker once. Like so many retired politicians he turned out to be utterly charming face to face. I remember him saying over lunch with the committee how much he pitied the guys who'd come after him. "It was bad enough for me - the civil servants would come into my office at 8.30 in the morning asking me to sign off on yet more money - and say, 'It's only a million, Minister.' Nowadays I understand that they come in even earlier, or telephone the poor devils in their cars before they even arrive - and of course, nowadays they say, "It's only a BILLION, Minister."

To his credit, he resigned from the Macmillan Cabinet as a protest against unwisely-high levels of public expenditure. Lovely bloke, and what you could call 'principled,' as far as I could tell.

[Edited 2008-10-07 05:46:46]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:24 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 316):
Sudden vision of walking along Threadneedle Street in the City of London and seeing lots of unshaven bankers sitting on the pavement in their pinstripe trousers and black jackets, holding out their bowler hats and saying, "Buddy, can you spare a dime....?" Or whatever the British equivalent is nowadays.

Were you listening to Late Night Live tonight? Adams used to have Bach as the theme for the program, then he went to "Waltz of the Wombats" written by Ms Elena Kats-Chernin (she called it Russian Rag) but tonight to speak to Bruce Schapiro who was in Mexico (appropriate spot to discuss financial disasters perhaps) he specially changed to "Buddy can you spare a dime".

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 316):
Sir Peter Thorneycroft, as a guest speaker once. Like so many retired politicians he turned out to be utterly charming face to face.

Hmmm, that would be the Chancellor of the Ex who presumably approved the 1957 Sandys white paper that wrecked the UK aircraft industry.  Wow! Wonder how a monetarist like he would have gone in the roll up to this crisis?

Everything does seem to be linked. Apparently when news of the Aus rate drop arrived in NY, the Dow futures showed a significant positive blip.

Just hope it is not a case of "three in the bed and the little one said roll over"!
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:42 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 317):
Hmmm, that would be the Chancellor of the Ex who presumably approved the 1957 Sandys white paper that wrecked the UK aircraft industry.   Wonder how a monetarist like he would have gone in the roll up to this crisis?

Rumor has it, or as you fellows call it "rumour" ....where was I? Oh yes....rumor has it that a group of Boeing engineers were given a tour of the Hawker Siddeley works and thought the Trident was verrrrrrrrrry interesting indeed. Although I do have a little book entitled "How An Airliner Is Built" and of course it is about the Trident and from the works photos it looked pretty primitive.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:09 pm

Airline shares just tumbling excessively today..
UA minus 24% !!!
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Elite
Topic Author
Posts: 2297
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:30 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 319):

Everything is going down . . . watching Bloomberg and the DJI was depressing.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:57 am



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 318):
Oh yes....rumor has it that a group of Boeing engineers were given a tour of the Hawker Siddeley works and thought the Trident was verrrrrrrrrry interesting indeed.

Just as a matter of interest, Dougloid, it was more than a rumour! Geoffrey de Havilland's initial design concept was for a 120-seater. This would have required more powerful engines than those available at the time, which DH didn't see as a problem (he was quite capable of designing his own engines as well!). But the British Government took fright at the expected development cost and 'explored' the possibility of getting the Americans in as partners. So Boeing and US engine manufacturers were in fact given every detail of the initial Trident design.

Sadly, BEA (British European Airways) were the only source of orders in Britain, and they took it into their heads that they only needed an 80-seater (which could be achieved with existing engines). One suspects that that change may very possibly have been a money-saving gambit by government (which, of course, ran BEA as well).

So the Boeing 727 was not a follow-on from the Trident idea - it practically WAS the Trident as DH had originally designed it!

Typically, almost as soon as the cut-down, under-powered Trident 1 entered service BEA changed their minds and decided that they wanted a 'stretched' version. But then they decided that they didn't want to wait for years for it to be developed. And began begging the government to allow them to buy 727s......  Smile

This is the best summary of the (sad) story that I could find:-

http://www.dmflightsim.co.uk/hs121_trident_history.htm
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:31 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 321):
So the Boeing 727 was not a follow-on from the Trident idea - it practically WAS the Trident as DH had originally designed it!

Clearly they were not capable of moving the idea forward then. Remember if you build a better mousetrap the world will beat a path to your door but more than one of them will have larceny in mind.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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moo
Posts: 4898
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:59 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 322):

Clearly they were not capable of moving the idea forward then. Remember if you build a better mousetrap the world will beat a path to your door but more than one of them will have larceny in mind.

Consider the market the plane was conceived in - pretty much every aviation enabled European country had their own thumb in the pie, with markets for their aircraft essentially being limited to native airlines. In most cases the native aircraft were designed and developed solely with the native airlines in mind, mainly because it was the government funding both the development and purchase, so the airlines got what they wanted even if they didn't want it.

Several times you will find the same stories regarding the UK civil aviation market, that the native airlines were literally sabotaging the native manufacturers because they wanted other aircraft. Stories like this one, or the one where BOAC were to purchase VC-10s, until they leaked internal 'calculations' showing that the VC-10, which was designed to their operational requirements, was to be more expensive to operate than the 707, which BOAC wanted more of. Despite the fact that the 707 at the time could not operate the routes that BOAC had ordered the VC-10 for with the same capability that the VC-10 could...
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:26 am



Quoting Moo (Reply 323):
Several times you will find the same stories regarding the UK civil aviation market, that the native airlines were literally sabotaging the native manufacturers because they wanted other aircraft. Stories like this one, or the one where BOAC were to purchase VC-10s, until they leaked internal 'calculations' showing that the VC-10, which was designed to their operational requirements, was to be more expensive to operate than the 707, which BOAC wanted more of. Despite the fact that the 707 at the time could not operate the routes that BOAC had ordered the VC-10 for with the same capability that the VC-10 could...

The VC10 is the most beautiful airliner that ever took flight, but the only engine configuration that is more anti growth than four in the back is four in the wingroot ala Comet.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
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RE: $700 Billion Bail Out Plan

Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:00 am

Same sort of problem as the Trident, Dougloid.

The VC10 project started as an RAF 'expressions of interest' invitation for a military jet trooper/transport aircraft. The RAF naturally wanted 'short-field' capability. The transport project got to the prototype stage but was cancelled in a round of defence cuts.

Menawhile, though, Vickers had been talking to BOAC ('British Overseas Aircraft Corporation' - basically the government again) about a civil version. BOAC did the same thing with the VC10 as BEA did with the Trident, placed a small order and then set to work largely to ruin the design with one 'special requirement' after another.

In particular, their pre-occupation at the time was with the 'Empire routes' - which included South Africa. Those were 'bus stop' routes at the time, and stops on the way to Cape Town included Rome, Beirut, Cairo, and then a number of 'hot and high' airports all the way down through Africa. Almost unbelievably, they ALSO said that they didn't see much future in transatlantic services.....  Smile

So the VC10 finished up with a lot of power, but also a big wing area and an unbelievably-massive array of flaps and airbrakes. All of which cost performance, especially range.

True to form, when BOAC finally got the small numbers of VC10s they'd ordered, they found themselves having to rush it into service on the fast-expanding North Atlantic trade - for which, of course, thanks to them, it was pretty ill-suited. And beyond THAT, of course - you've guessed it!  Smile - they began imploring the government to let them buy 707s........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
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