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RJdxer
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:02 pm

I'm sure when this person gets to tell their tale in court it will be that he was just clowning around and didn't really mean any harm.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/obama-s...male-mccain-volunteer-in-new-york/
 
PSA727
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:10 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 198):
I am sorry for Joe, but I hope that the attacks continue so that Americans can see how mean-spirited the left in this country really is.

I hope they keep up the attacks, also. Don't forget "Joe" is from Ohio, and the average
person probably identifies more with him than with Obama, this also sounds condiscending
like the "guns and gods" comment, and most importantly... it highlights the reality of the
Obama Tax Plan. So keep it up.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 181):
McCain is well aware of his own past with the Keating Five. He kows Obama's camp, or the DNC, could develop some very powerful ads about McCian's "association" with Keating. Direct involvement, large campaign contributions, etc. McCain also knows that there would be funds available for major TV spending to run those ads.

Exactly!!! And Obama can get advice from a campaign supporter standing next to him on the
stage in Ohio...former Senator John Glenn, who was also one of the Keating Five. And was
also found not guilty, like McCain, by the congressional inquiry.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:11 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 200):
McCain & Obama should listen to the voice of the taxpayers, not the tax evaders.

'Fly, shame on you for doing the same thing. As a contractor who works sometimes independently, sometimes for another contractor, it is very easy to get sideways with your taxes. You don't get a regular paycheck with deductions already pulled out.

This guy, warts and all, is a regular citizen with dreams of making for himself a better future. He clearly is not afraid of hard work. So I would listen to his opinion far more readily than I would a lifelong politician who has never gotten his hands dirty.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:02 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 201):
He clearly is not afraid of hard work.

How in the world can you conclude that? Why doesn't he pay his taxes and go get a plumbing contractor's lisence if he's so ambitious?
 
md80fanatic
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:10 am



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 203):
How in the world can you conclude that? Why doesn't he pay his taxes and go get a plumbing contractor's lisence if he's so ambitious?

For goodness sake SIC, are you still harping about Joe? Do you realize just how irrelevant he is? Being a poor plumber or even not being one at all does not invalidate Obama's response. A reporter could have asked the same question as ole' Joe....and I presume the risen lord would have answered the same way.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:00 am



Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 204):
For goodness sake SIC, are you still harping about Joe? Do you realize just how irrelevant he is?

I think he's almost as irrelevant as McCain is. All the more reason to stop painting him as a hard working, honest business man who would be punished by Obama's evil socialist tax burden.
 
AirCop
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:01 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 201):
This guy, warts and all, is a regular citizen with dreams of making for himself a better future. He clearly is not afraid of hard work. So I would listen to his opinion far more readily than I would a lifelong politician who has never gotten his hands dirty.

Apparently he doesn't pay his court fines, owes $700 to the Mesa courts for traffic fines:
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/128323

No he's not a regular citizen, Joe the Plumber is just another irresponsible person that won't live up to his obligations.
 
Ken777
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:21 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 194):
When Pelosi, Reid, and Obama are in power, especially if they manage a filibuster proof Senate, you will most likely see a number of funding and election laws come down the pike

Sort of like after the 2000 elections when the Republicans were in total charge, including in charge of resetting congressional districts. "Gerrymandering" comes to mind.  Smile

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 197):
Yeah but see this is my problem with McCain - he feels free to take that stab at Obama, yet nothing in his record points to him being a consistent proponent of a fair flat tax, much less using his Senate clout to reduce the size of the IRS or simplify the progressive tax codes.

A fair flat tax is a long way in the future, if ever.

As for simplifying the tax codes, my brother-in-law is a tax attorney here and loves it. He says that when the politicians "simplify" the tax codes his incomes goes up.
 
md80fanatic
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:57 am

Gov. Sarah Palin to appear on SNL this Saturday night. Don't miss it.  Smile
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:34 am



Quoting AirCop (Reply 206):
No he's not a regular citizen, Joe the Plumber is just another irresponsible person that won't live up to his obligations.

Why is it that I cannot take that comment seriously when coming from the side that gave us Charlie Rangle and doesn;t seem to give a damn about it?
 
L-188
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:51 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 194):
When Pelosi, Reid, and Obama are in power, especially if they manage a filibuster proof Senate, you will most likely see a number of funding and election laws come down the pike that will make the challengers job Herculean.

That is the really scary scenario, basicly you will end up having a very maxist agenda being passed unchecked and unvetted.

We need to elect McCain just to put a check on the government. It really works best when the branches are fighting and not "Getting anything done"
 
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Aaron747
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:53 am



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 205):
I think he's almost as irrelevant as McCain is.

Are you that far gone? McCain is irrelevant? Who's the war hero running for President again? 100% ridiculous post. More dumb partisan banter.

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 202):
it highlights the reality of the
Obama Tax Plan.

You mean the reality as put forth by the spin machine in the McCain campaign. How many facts from nonpartisan tax policy reform and advocacy groups need to be thrown your way before you stop believing that claptrap? It's not a blanket increase for small businesses - it entirely depends on how they file their income vs. profits. You probably still believe the McCain $42,000 tax increase claims as well.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:26 pm



Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 204):
For goodness sake SIC, are you still harping about Joe? Do you realize just how irrelevant he is?

I guess McCain still hasn't gotten the message.

In his weekly radio address today, John McCain uses the ubiquitous Joe the plumber to all but accuse Democratic rival Barack Obama of being a socialist.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...igence/2008/10/mccain_joe_the.html
 
md80fanatic
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:42 pm



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 212):
I guess McCain still hasn't gotten the message.

In his weekly radio address today, John McCain uses the ubiquitous Joe the plumber to all but accuse Democratic rival Barack Obama of being a socialist.

I cannot see why he continues to invoke Joe.....when he can nail Obama as a socialist on dozens of other points. Joe served his purpose, but now it's time to take Joe from the lips of liberals.
 
md80fanatic
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:34 pm

Don't you think someone from the Obama campaign would tell all of Barack's "terrorist" buddies to stop the chatter until after 11-4? For goodness sake Muammar, your will get your chance to sleep in the Lincoln bedroom.....just be patient.  Wink

Gadhafi praises Obama.  banghead 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojgJuxD87FU
 
NAV20
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:38 pm



Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 213):
Joe served his purpose, but now it's time to take Joe from the lips of liberals.

Sorry, MD80fanatic, have to disagree. Poor Joe got 'thrown to the wolves' by a real political howler - bringing a guy into the harsh glare of a national campaign without even having the common courtesy of asking him whether he minded, and ALSO checking whether he had any skeletons in the cupboard like operating without a licence, not being up-to-date with his taxes, not being entitled to a driving licence........

What saddens me above all is what appears to be a total misunderstanding of the two candidates' tax policies. As far as I know, Obama plans to reduce the taxes paid by anyone who earns less than $200,000 p.a. net (perhaps I'd better put the word "NET" in capitals and bold and italics, in the hope that it gets through) and raise the taxes of people who earn more than that (again, net). While McCain plans to leave taxes on net incomes below $200,000 as they are, and give the tax breaks to people who net more than $200,000.

I can't see how on earth giving people who earn less than that substantial amount a tax break can be construed as 'socialism.' And, conversely, I cannot see how promising NOT to can help McCain's electoral prospects.

Poor Joe presumably didn't understand the difference between gross and net. On present evidence, it's highly unlikely that he nets anything like $200,000 a year.

But never mind - if Obama wins, he'll at least get a tax cut in the end......  Smile
 
RJdxer
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:50 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 207):
Sort of like after the 2000 elections when the Republicans were in total charge, including in charge of resetting congressional districts. "Gerrymandering" comes to mind.

The Republicans were not in "total" charge after the 2000 elections. When Sen. Jeffords decided to drop the GOP the democratic party took charge once again. Gerrymandering happens once every 10 years after the census and it doesn't matter which party is in charge. If the DNC controls the state, want to guess how the districts get redrawn?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:59 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 215):
But never mind - if Obama wins, he'll at least get a tax cut in the end......

How do you figure? He has book royalties and the Presidential salary is $400,000.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 215):
What saddens me above all is what appears to be a total misunderstanding of the two candidates' tax policies.

Partisans don't check facts, period. And sometimes even though they do, they ignore them and continue believing the invented ones from their favorite quarters. It's the sad reality of modern day American political life...critical thinking has all but been abandoned.
 
NAV20
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:01 pm

This comment by US journalist Michael Tomalsky (about whether Colin Powell will endorse Obama) is intriguing in any case - hope it interests people.

But the tabulation on the right, from RealClearPolitics (an 'authoritative' source, as far as I know) is also interesting. It shows that, for the first time in this campaign (and, as far as I can recall, in any previous campaign) Barack Obama now has a clear lead in the polls in every one of the 12 'battleground' states:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...oct/17/uselections2008-barackobama
 
NAV20
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:03 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 217):
How do you figure? He has book royalties and the Presidential salary is $400,000.

I meant Joe, Aaron747.  Smile
 
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Aaron747
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:13 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 219):

I meant Joe, Aaron747.

I knew that...bloody internet! FYI, RealClearPolitics is only one of many such sites, but it's difficult to refer to them as 'authoritative' since they rely heavily on a smattering of polls with similar methodologies. A more diversified polling pool would be better if they wanted their maps to be more meaningful.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:55 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 211):
Are you that far gone?

I thought that was an obvious joke. I didn't realize that you were so dilligent in your self appointed duties as partisan police that light hearted comments would meet your wrath.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:25 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 198):
Like hell, the clip of his exchange with Obama was making the rounds on the net and TV well before the debate.

And if it hadn't been brought up at the debate it would have faded into irrelevance in a couple of days, like most of the other similar stuff that's happened over the campaign.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 210):
We need to elect McCain just to put a check on the government. It really works best when the branches are fighting and not "Getting anything done"

By that logic, I assume that you supported John Kerry in 2004, on the grounds that you needed a Democrat in the White House to balance the GOP-controlled Congress. But something tells me that you didn't.

-Mir
 
md80fanatic
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:43 pm

You folks may have already heard this Howard Stern show audio, but for those that haven't it's worth a listen.

http://www.rense.com/general83/hs_sal_in_harlem_100108.mp3
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:07 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 215):
Sorry, MD80fanatic, have to disagree. Poor Joe got 'thrown to the wolves' by a real political howler - bringing a guy into the harsh glare of a national campaign without even having the common courtesy of asking him whether he minded, and ALSO checking whether he had any skeletons in the cupboard like operating without a licence, not being up-to-date with his taxes, not being entitled to a driving licence........

You are entirely missing the point, and the Obamatons are attempting to (largely successfully, I might add) to deflect the real issue by bringing up Joe's deficiencies.

Joe asked a valid question for millions of Americans who aspire to higher incomes by working hard and building a business for themselves. Such small businesses are the powerhouse of the economy, creating far more jobs than any other segment of the economy.

In answering the question, Obama commited a gaffe - telling the truth, in this case. He wants to provide people with equal RESULTS, rather than equal opportunities. He considers fairness as everyone have closer to the same amount of money, regardless of who earned it.

This flies in the face of what most Americans believe, and most educated persons know that the rich already get soaked in this country. The top 5% (the ones Obama wants to hit) already pay 60% of all the income taxes in the country (up from 55% in 2000).

So faced with the fact that he had a rare moment of honesty, and that it might cost him heavily in the polls, Obama and his lapdog media buddies decided to attack the messenger.

Even if Joe the Plumber was a wife-beating pedophile, how does that somehow negate the validity of his question, or the substance of Obama's answer?
 
md80fanatic
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:14 pm



Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 223):
You folks may have already heard this Howard Stern show audio, but for those that haven't it's worth a listen.

http://www.rense.com/general83/hs_sa...8.mp3

Could we have an answer in this document?

http://www.pennypresslv.com/Obama%27...sis_techniques_in_His_Speeches.pdf

Stranger things have happened. Humanity's behavior towards Obama has been awfully peculiar, to say the least.
 
11Bravo
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:01 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 224):
This flies in the face of what most Americans believe, and most educated persons know that the rich already get soaked in this country. The top 5% (the ones Obama wants to hit) already pay 60% of all the income taxes in the country (up from 55% in 2000).

If you think that "most" Americans are deeply concerned about the plight of those in the 5% income bracket, you are seriously delusional. All McCain's phony concern for poor Joe the Plumber does is reinforce the belief that what the GOP is really all about is making life easier for the wealthy and corporate America. That is the very core of it's ideology. That is what it's been doing for the last 50 years. If the top 5% are taxed another 5 or 10 percent, I don't really care, and I don't think most other Americans will either.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:12 pm



Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 226):
If you think that "most" Americans are deeply concerned about the plight of those in the 5% income bracket, you are seriously delusional.

Deeply concerned, maybe not. But the desire to 'stick it to 'em' is the kind on unconstructive, jealousy-based class warfare that simply leads nowhere.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 226):
All McCain's phony concern for poor Joe the Plumber does is reinforce the belief that what the GOP is really all about is making life easier for the wealthy and corporate America.

Did Joe look wealthy or corporate to you???

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 226):
If the top 5% are taxed another 5 or 10 percent, I don't really care, and I don't think most other Americans will either.

Considering that the top 5-10% of earners are the ones who hire people, they might pay attention when unemployment stabilizes around 8-10% under the new tax regime.
 
Ken777
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:19 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 215):
While McCain plans to leave taxes on net incomes below $200,000 as they are, and give the tax breaks to people who net more than $200,000.

Of course he's going to give a tax break to the rich - have you noticed how much his wife make a year? $5+ million average per year for the last two years. Poor thing needs a tax break far more than the average hard working plumber.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 224):
Joe asked a valid question for millions of Americans who aspire to higher incomes by working hard and building a business for themselves. Such small businesses are the powerhouse of the economy, creating far more jobs than any other segment of the economy.

Obama's tax plan is to start with a 10% tax rate at the lower end which cuts every ones taxes through $250,000 a year. The top tax rate goes back to the one set by Ronald Reagan - and everyone knows what a radical socialist he was.

People who now fear the potential of Obama's "redistribution of wealth" conveniently forget that the last 8 years have seen the greatest redistribution of wealth in our lives - but the shift has been towards the rich. Maybe it's time to get back to a "rising tide raises all boats" approach with Reagan's top tax rate and tax cuts for those that have lost buying power during the Bush years. As bad as the last 8 years have turned out Obama's approach can't be any worse.

As for "socialist" agendas, I lived with my family in Australia for 8 years where they had the "socialist" program program called child endowment. Each month the mother of the children received a check (actually a cheque) from the government to help take care of the kids. We don't have that level of socialism in the US. Instead we have a tax credit for each child to help take care of the kids.

To compare Australia's "socialism" to American conservatism assume the child endowment is $100 per month and the tax credit is $1,200 per year. At the end of the year both countries have $1,200 less in their accounts per child and each family received $1,200 in their bank account per child. Actually, I'm still trying to figure out how the conservatives child tax credit is different than Australia's "socialists" program.  Yeah sure
 
L-188
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:22 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 222):
By that logic, I assume that you supported John Kerry in 2004, on the grounds that you needed a Democrat in the White House to balance the GOP-controlled Congress. But something tells me that you didn't.

Hell no.

He is left wing scum also.

That and his behavior after he weaseled his way out of Nam was unacceptable.
 
baroque
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:51 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 228):
To compare Australia's "socialism" to American conservatism assume the child endowment is $100 per month and the tax credit is $1,200 per year. At the end of the year both countries have $1,200 less in their accounts per child and each family received $1,200 in their bank account per child. Actually, I'm still trying to figure out how the conservatives child tax credit is different than Australia's "socialists" program.

Us socialist, oh no, that could not be. Heavens to Betsy NOT THAT!  wink 

I know someone who had been a socialist and Labour party member all her life and in about 1990 or 1991 was so irritated at the desertion of socialist principles by the then Labor government that she tried to join the Australian Communist Party only to discover it had been disbanded about 6 months before.

Still, these days, there is always the Green party.
 
11Bravo
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:01 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 227):
Deeply concerned, maybe not. But the desire to 'stick it to 'em' is the kind on unconstructive, jealousy-based class warfare that simply leads nowhere.

Nowhere? I think it leads to some very important opportunities to reform energy policy, education, and healthcare among others. Of course those issues don't really matter to the GOP leadership because they have enough money to pay for all that stuff and still buy the new winter house in Florida and send Jr. to a $40,000 a year private college.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 227):
Did Joe look wealthy or corporate to you???

No he didn't, because he's not. As a matter of fact, as it turns out, Joe wasn't at all what he said he was. He wasn't a plumber, he doesn't make anything even remotely resembling the tax bracket he was asking about, and either did the business he was allegedly going to buy. Now that the actual facts of Joe's horrible situation have come to light, it is quite obvious that Joe would actually fare better under Obama's tax plan than he would under McCain's.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 227):
Considering that the top 5-10% of earners are the ones who hire people, they might pay attention when unemployment stabilizes around 8-10% under the new tax regime.

There is absolutely no evidence that would happen. You are just flat out making that up in the finest tradition of Republican fear-mongering. If we see sustained unemployment like that in the next few years it won't be because of Obama's tax policy; it will be because the greed and orgy of irresponsibility perpetrated by the current Republican administration as severely damaged the economy.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:07 pm



Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 231):
Nowhere? I think it leads to some very important opportunities to reform energy policy, education, and healthcare among others.

You (and Obama) underestimate the opposition to wealth distribution in this country.









http://www.gallup.com/poll/108445/am...me-redistribution-fix-economy.aspx

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 231):
He wasn't a plumber,

He's a plumber working under someone else's license, which is generally allowed. He is studing to pass his own license so that he can go into business himself.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 231):
he doesn't make anything even remotely resembling the tax bracket he was asking about

He clearly said that he was hoping to buy a business. He never said "I make XXX much"

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 231):
and either did the business he was allegedly going to buy.

Source?

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 231):
Now that the actual facts of Joe's horrible situation have come to light, it is quite obvious that Joe would actually fare better under Obama's tax plan than he would under McCain's.

You assume that he wants the help. I remember my grandfather back in the 80s getting very upset at the government sending him a social security retirement check. He tried to get them to stop sending them, "I don't need this, I saved up for my own retirement." Of course the government would not listen to him so he ended up forwarding 100% of his social security to the American Red Cross every month.

Not everyone is looking for a handout.
 
kappel
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:48 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 207):
As for simplifying the tax codes, my brother-in-law is a tax attorney here and loves it. He says that when the politicians "simplify" the tax codes his incomes goes up.

LOL, I'm one too. We get more work when there's ANY change in tax policies, doesn't matter if it's a simplification or not...

Quoting L-188 (Reply 210):
very maxist agenda

Oh please, so I guess he's the second coming of Lenin huh? Gimme a break...

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 215):
without even having the common courtesy of asking him whether he minded, and ALSO checking whether he had any skeletons in the cupboard like operating without a licence, not being up-to-date with his taxes, not being entitled to a driving licence........

Hmmm, now why does that sound familiar?

BTW, why is Palin STILL refusing to answer any questions to reporters? They keep asking who is Barack Obama, who is the real Sarah Palin?
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:17 am



Quoting Kappel (Reply 233):
Oh please, so I guess he's the second coming of Lenin huh? Gimme a break...

More like Nero or Mussolini.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 232):
Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 231):
He wasn't a plumber,

He's a plumber working under someone else's license, which is generally allowed. He is studing to pass his own license so that he can go into business himself.

Yup, I am sure he can sweat joints with the rest of them.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 232):
Not everyone is looking for a handout.

Too many people these days are, and to them Obama is a godsend.

Personal responsibility is not a big deal in the Democratic party. JFK is no doubt rolling in his grave.
 
11Bravo
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:43 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 232):
You (and Obama) underestimate the opposition to wealth distribution in this country.

The data you present there is what is called a "Forced-Choice" query in the polling industry. It is presenting the options as a choice between two different policy possibilities. In this case "distribute wealth" vs "improve economic conditions".

If you look at polls that examine approval/disapproval for specific tax policy positions you get very different results:











http://www.gallup.com/poll/106813/Ma...ericans-Increasing-Taxes-Rich.aspx

Looking at both our data sets it would seem that people would like to see better over-all economic conditions, but when it comes to the specifics of tax policy, they overwhelmingly agree that rich people don't pay enough taxes and would prefer a situation where "the government should redistribute wealth by heavy taxes on the rich."
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:15 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 224):
Even if Joe the Plumber was a wife-beating pedophile, how does that somehow negate the validity of his question, or the substance of Obama's answer?

It doesn't. But when you figure out that Joe the Plumber would get a tax cut under Obama, the question is answered, and continuing to ask it is pointless.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 229):
Quoting Mir (Reply 222):
By that logic, I assume that you supported John Kerry in 2004, on the grounds that you needed a Democrat in the White House to balance the GOP-controlled Congress. But something tells me that you didn't.

Hell no.

May I then assume that you voted against Stevens in 2002 and against Murkowski in 2004?

-Mir
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:50 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 236):
But when you figure out that Joe the Plumber would get a tax cut under Obama, the question is answered, and continuing to ask it is pointless.

Not if he buys the business he wants.

Let's remember that you have a lot of people who are looking for the person who will do the right thing, not send them a check. Not everyone is looking for a handout.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:21 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 237):
Not if he buys the business he wants.



Seems like there would be a tax cut for him, even if he does buy that business.

-Mir
 
PSA727
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:31 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 211):
You mean the reality as put forth by the spin machine in the McCain campaign. How many facts from nonpartisan tax policy reform and advocacy groups need to be thrown your way before you stop believing that claptrap? It's not a blanket increase for small businesses - it entirely depends on how they file their income vs. profits. You probably still believe the McCain $42,000 tax increase claims as well.

The reality of Obama's Tax Plan is that it highlights it's socialist tenets, hench Obama's
response to Joe's question saying it's about "sharing the wealth". The only way he can pay
for his middle-class tax cuts is by taxing the higher income earners. If the middle class gets a tax cut, then so should the higher income earners. If the higher income earners get a tax
increase, then so should the middle class. That would be more "patriotic".

And the fact that Obama keeps saying that 95% of Americans would get a tax break, well
does he mean 95% of tax payers (which is not 95% of Americans) or will those who work
and do not pay taxes now get a tax credit, because that reflects socialism.
 
Ken777
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:48 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 227):
Did Joe look wealthy or corporate to you???

No. Joe looked like a guy that didn't understand the difference between sales and taxable net profit. Basically it means he won't be in business long if he doesn't get an accountant to work with him before he buys any business. The say part is that Mccain's understanding of the difference is either as bad as Joe's or he's intentionally misleading the public. Either way it's not impressive.

By the way, who really believes that McCain will be concerned about old Joe after the election?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 230):
Us socialist, oh no, that could not be. Heavens to Betsy NOT THAT!   


You'll notice that I kept socialists in quotation marks.  Smile

While there is no difference between the child endowment and child tax credit programs can you see the screaming of "socialists" if the Democrats had come out with the child endowment program during the Clinton Administration? Conservatives would have been stroking out right, not left and center.  Big grin
 
NAV20
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:05 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 240):
Basically it means he won't be in business long if he doesn't get an accountant to work with him before he buys any business.

Agreed. And the first thing said accountant will tell him is that a sound business delivering a secure net annual income of $250,000 is going to cost him between $2M. amd $2.5M. minimum.
 
md80fanatic
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:40 am

Did anyone see Palin on SNL tonight? Do you have a link to a video. Gosh Damn liberal Time Warner in Austin is no longer carrying the local NBC affiliate. Bastards!!!!!  Wink

Gimme my Palin!!!!!  Smile
 
baroque
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:46 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 240):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 230):
Us socialist, oh no, that could not be. Heavens to Betsy NOT THAT!


You'll notice that I kept socialists in quotation marks. Smile

While there is no difference between the child endowment and child tax credit programs can you see the screaming of "socialists" if the Democrats had come out with the child endowment program during the Clinton Administration? Conservatives would have been stroking out right, not left and center.

Ken, aside from the relatively narrow lines of thought in the main political field in the US (as opposed to the often brilliant and much more divergent lines of thought among your researchers, commentators and writers) the reliance on slogans is perhaps the main surprising and disappointing aspect of US politics.

Nav might like to comment, but it seems the ultimate in shallow thinking to dismiss a whole proposal with a single (commonly incorrect or at least inappropriate) slogan, rather than by a systematic argument. Someone is going to say it is the tyranny of the sound bite, which suggests that fame (and fortune) awaits the person who is able to break free from that tyranny.

It could be argued that Obama gets close to doing that, but of course at this distance, all we know of what either does is via the soundbites that the media see fit to serve up!

Interestingly, we get a much better view of what is happening with matters like Senate committees where extensive clips rather than sound bites are given. Apart from the grandstanding that is obvious in them at times, they do suggest that political debate in the US has a sound basis, and that it may be that it becomes corrupted largely when it faces the media through second guessing what the media will do to it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 240):
No. Joe looked like a guy that didn't understand the difference between sales and taxable net profit. Basically it means he won't be in business long if he doesn't get an accountant to work with him before he buys any business.

As soon as that happened, I thought, Aha, a.net previewed this very debate with the discussion where this not quite so subtle difference was clearly a bit of a shock to some!!
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:04 am



Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 242):
Gimme my Palin!!!!!

http://video.google.com.au/videosear...e=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv&st=day&start=0

Second one down on the left - the '6 min.' one.......

Blowed if I can tell them apart......  Smile
 
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Aaron747
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:29 am



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 239):
Obama's
response to Joe's question saying it's about "sharing the wealth".

I disagree with Obama, but according to the poll results in reply 235, that's what the majority of Americans are in favor of.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:11 pm

Well, well - CNN reports that Colin Powell just endorsed Obama/Biden.

Haven't lived in the United States for a long time. But I know a 'star' when I see one. And personally I reckon that Powell (despite his 'stumble' over WMDs) still commands a huge amount of respect across the whole spectrum of American society and American politics.

So this strikes me as a pretty important 'development'?

"Former Secretary of State Colin Powell says he is voting for Barack Obama.

"He has both style and substance. I think he is a transformational figure," Powell said on NBC's "Meet the Press."

"Obama displayed a steadiness. Showed intellectual vigor. He has a definitive way of doing business that will do us well," Powell said.

"Powell, a retired U.S. general and a Republican, was once seen as a possible presidential candidate himself.

"Powell said he questioned Sen. John McCain's judgment in picking Gov. Sarah Palin as his running mate because he doesn't think she is ready to be president."


http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/19/colin.powell/
 
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OA260
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RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:42 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 246):
Well, well - CNN reports that Colin Powell just endorsed Obama/Biden.

Yep its a great endorsement of the Obama campaign. It seems daily that Obama is gaining strength.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:43 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 246):
And personally I reckon that Powell (despite his 'stumble' over WMDs) still commands a huge amount of respect across the whole spectrum of American society and American politics.

He's pretty much the only major figure from the Bush Administration who the American people think highly of. His endorsement definitely carries clout.

-Mir
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1713
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 5

Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:31 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 248):
He's pretty much the only major figure from the Bush Administration who the American people think highly of. His endorsement definitely carries clout.

 checkmark 

Actually, I would go even further; he's a figure that carries clout on both sides of the aisle. I cannot think of any other person whose endorsement carries more weight.
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