U.S. Election - McCain/Palin Campaign - Part 7

AirCop · Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:57 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 296):
So now pointing out what your opponents policies really are is slinging mud or trying to create fear

Except McCain/Palin haven't done that. Calling your opponent a socialist, talking about Ayers, misinformation of Obama's tax plan, current ads, is nothing more than mud slinging and creating fear. Quite frankly what has McCain proposed to help the financial situation, military etc.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 297):
Do McCain and Palin actually ever talk about issues that effect us?

I haven't heard anything..

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 293):
So McCain has a long history of being practical senator working with the other guys to get things done. Nary a word about his many accomplishments.

After 26 years in Washington, and only one quasi -major accomplishment. His fellow party members in the Senate don't really care for him.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 293):
Historically, when one candidate offers hope and one offers fear, hope wins."

Here to hearing the American prayer of hope is answer on Nov. 4th.

Aaron747 · Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:22 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 291):
He now says that "Obama's taking your money to give to his welfare-lovin' peeps."

Actually, that's exactly what Obama's plan intends to do, race-baiting aside. Obama's tax plan TRIPLES the Earned Income Tax Credit - which is completely uncalled for given the success of the current program.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 292):
this ad along with Elizabeth Dole's for one

To paraphrase Ed Rollins: "What Elizabeth Dole allowed Charlie Black to do is desperate and despicable and she ought to be ashamed of herself"

Criticism is coming from her own party on that one. Say what you will about Rollins, when he was running Mike Huckabee's campaign, there was never any of that kind of nonsense.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=S3vYzZr80aI

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 294):
So to answer your question, no it was not wealth redistribution since the lower tax rate went up and the higher tax rate went down.

Dreadnought, aka Cfalk seems to disagree with you. The money is still coming from those paying higher tax brackets while giving breaks and added refunds to those in lower. How is that not "redistribution" by any measure? Again, how does that not add a 'socialist' element to Ford and Reagan tax policy? Be consistent please.

Dreadnought · Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:34 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 297):
Do McCain and Palin actually ever talk about issues that effect us? All I ever heard them do is browbeat Obama and Biden in there quest to take the limelight off of them!

I don't know what kind of coverage you watch. They talk about their program and their differences with Obama every single day. If you are only shown the attacks, I suggest you change your news sources.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 301):
Dreadnought, aka Cfalk seems to disagree with you. The money is still coming from those paying higher tax brackets while giving breaks and added refunds to those in lower. How is that not "redistribution" by any measure? Again, how does that not add a 'socialist' element to Ford and Reagan tax policy? Be consistent please.

I found the perfect explaination.

RJdxer · Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:52 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 299):
McCain is flip flopping more than an out of water fish

Really, care to name those?

Quoting AirCop (Reply 300):
Calling your opponent a socialist, talking about Ayers, misinformation of Obama's tax plan, current ads, is nothing more than mud slinging and creating fear. Quite frankly what has McCain proposed to help the financial situation, military etc.

Taking from the wealthy and giving to the poor via the federal tax system is......? The fact remains he was an aquantance of Ayers, has not repudiated the man, and continued to sit on boards and started his political career in his home. All documented. Ayers who as recently as 2001 said that his only regret is that he didn't do more. The fact remains that Sen. Obama and Osama Bin Laden have one thing in common, they both have friends who have bombed the Pentagon. How can one not spread misinformation on the Obama tax plan when it changes from week to week? Two weeks ago if you made below 250k you were safe, a week ago it was 200k. According to Biden over the weekend if you made below 150k, last night back up to 200k. His whole plan was overhauled 3 weeks ago so it would be easy to have an old ad with information tied to a previous version. What has McCain proposed, make the tax cuts permanent, do not throw out arbitrary dates of withdrawl from Iraq to name just a couple.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 300):
I haven't heard anything..

I'm sure you have been paying rapt attention.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 300):
After 26 years in Washington, and only one quasi -major accomplishment

Which is one more than his opponent can claim.

RJdxer · Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:59 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 301):
Again, how does that not add a 'socialist' element to Ford and Reagan tax policy? Be consistent please.

Because the EIC is only applicable to those below the poverty line. Neither party, nor Presidents Ford or Reagan, ever stated that they were against helping those that truly deserve help. Again, the Reagan tax plan of 1986 lowered top tax rates and raised lower tax rates. To avoid adding burden to those below the poverty line the EIC was changed. That does not mean that Reagan was socialist, far from it since once you got above the poverty line and were making a wage which could sustain you, you lost the EIC. Don't know how else to put it. Sen. Obama's plans go far beyond the EIC. Raising taxes on the wealthy to help pay for national health care and a multitude of other programs, with nary a cut in the bunch save for defense. The EIC was alwasy intended to take care of needy families and in that regard it is not socialist.

StuckInCA · Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:09 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 304):
The EIC was alwasy intended to take care of needy families and in that regard it is not socialist.

That's a pretty classic line.

RJdxer · Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:15 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 305):
That's a pretty classic line.

The detail of your replies is stunning. It shows such a depth of the subject, breadth of understanding and such. Socialists would not stop at the needy. As we have heard from Sen. Obama's own mouth, he wants to use the wealthies money to bring up all the little guys behind them. That means people above the povety line as well. Right up to that imaginary 250...200...150k and going down income line.

StuckInCA · Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:36 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 306):
The detail of your replies is stunning.

It doesn't take much more than that. Furthermore, many times that I make long posts with links and data, nobody on your side of the argument replies. That, or it's only to dismiss the source or put some demented spin on one small part of the argument.

I think it's ridiculous to claim that Obama is a socialist and hilarious to watch you (and others) argue that point.

I mean, you're now saying that any program targeting people below the poverty line is OK. Right? Even if it's funded by taxes from people making more money? And even if the people at the higher end are paying a larger percentage (as they are... and were)?

But Obama is a socialist.

It's just fun to watch.

The absurdity of this has had me thinking. I don't recall McCain or Palin (or you) frothing at the mouth about Obama being a socialist several weeks ago. Back then, it was that he "pals around with terrorists" and isn't experienced enough. That he would be willing to have talks with other countries without preconditions (which is labeled naive by McCain). None of this worked. So... now he's a socialist, jew-hating, muslim who's going to give all of Joe Six-Pack's money to his welfare lovin' peeps

LOL.

WunalaYann · Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:05 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 294):
Agreed. mad The majority of it though was in the latter 90's after the Clinton Justice department threatened to prosecute mortgage lenders that were thought to be practicing "red lining" that being not giving loans to people who live in certain areas regardless of their income due to the uncertainty of the value of the property.

Pretty messy, indeed. Sad

My general point is because it is a bi-partisan mess, then surely it has to be a bi-partisan solution. Labelling the different steps of the mess-up as "market fundamentalism" or "socialism" or "that's it, the US is like France" (ultimate insult in some circles Wink

) is nonsense, because both sides of the aisle joyfully took part in the ride.

Therefore, and a the risk of being repetitive, I think the critical aspect of this coming presidency will be the President's ability to govern in a bi-partisan way. I don't think there is such a thing as a "Republican economic crisis", any more than a "Democratic economic crisis". There is an economic crisis, full stop, and one that, in my opinion, requires solutions and input from both sides of the aisle.

I think it includes a much, much, much stricter enforcement of banking/loans prudential rules, a clarification of the role played by Fannie and Freddie with the necessary adjustment and reform of their status for them to hold such role, and maybe some form of oversight/capping of executive bonuses/pay packages.

Time to stow away the ideologies and dogma, and to look at pragmatism.

Just my $0.02.

Smile

luv2fly · Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:16 am

She is a fine one to talk!

No pun intended though talk bout the pot calling the kettle black!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081030/ap_on_el_pr/palin

Palin says Obama infomercial short on specifics

"The Alaska governor said Obama had "wrapped his closing message in a warm and fuzzy scripted infomercial intended to soften the focus in these closing days. He's hoping that your mind won't wander to the real challenges of national security, challenges that he isn't capable of meeting."

She said Republican presidential candidate John McCain is ready for that challenge."

Well GOD help us if he dies cause that leaves her in his place and here is the problem, McCain yeah he might be ready though his second in command is no way ready to do the job of President, and considering McCain's age and health concerns this is a vital problem with him selecting her. That is why he campaign is going down like it is, the public see's what an empty shell this woman is.

luv2fly · Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:20 am

Now when Palin calls Biden to congratulate him and starts out with calling him Joe he can quickly cut her off and tell her its Mr. Vice President Biden to you!

RJdxer · Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:33 am

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 307):
I mean, you're now saying that any program targeting people below the poverty line is OK.

Which it always has been. What Sen. Obama is proposing goes far beyond helping those below the poverty line. The EIC program is more about charity than socialism since there is no way a person getting the EIC is going to become the equal of even someone in the upper middle class without working for it.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 307):
It's just fun to watch.

It's also fun to watch Sen. Obama suppoters try and claim he isn't when he has made statement after statement, speeches, and given interviews where his intent is clear.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 307):
Back then, it was that he "pals around with terrorists

Which is still a valid point and still just as wrong.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 307):
isn't experienced enough.

Which hasn't changed.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 307):
That he would be willing to have talks with other countries without preconditions (which is labeled naive by McCain).

Which he absolutely said he would do in the primary debates and did not completely repudiate in the Presidential debates.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 307):
None of this worked

Yep, he's just blowing Sen. McCain away. What's the supposed spread today? Anywhere from 2-10 percent depending on which poll you look at which of course are all biased in their own way.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 307):
So... now he's a socialist, jew-hating, muslim who's going to give all of Joe Six-Pack's money to his welfare lovin' peeps

Your words not mine, at least not the first 3 references. Aircop before you even begin to type you know full well that was a sarcastic reply to a charge that you could not back up about Sen. Palin.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 308):
My general point is because it is a bi-partisan mess, then surely it has to be a bi-partisan solution.

But it won't be if the democratic party gets 60 seats in the Senate. They won't need the other side then.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 308):
because both sides of the aisle joyfully took part in the ride.

Some of them yes, those that are RINO's.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 308):
Therefore, and a the risk of being repetitive, I think the critical aspect of this coming presidency will be the President's ability to govern in a bi-partisan way.

As stated above, if the Senate becomes 60 seats to the democratic party he won't have too. Then again he will have to play ball with Pelosi and Reid and that may even be worse.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 308):
Time to stow away the ideologies and dogma, and to look at pragmatism.

You are about to see idealogies and dogma come out of the woodwork in this country.

luv2fly · Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:38 am

Well the show me state is leaning towards Obama!

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 311):
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 307):
Back then, it was that he "pals around with terrorists

Which is still a valid point and still just as wrong.

Then so is Palin and Stevens and McCain and Keating 5

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 311):
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 307):
That he would be willing to have talks with other countries without preconditions (which is labeled naive by McCain).

Which he absolutely said he would do in the primary debates and did not completely repudiate in the Presidential debates.

And he explaned why as it would be a way to extend a olive branch to open up talks, and the old way is not exactly burning down the house now is it.

RJdxer · Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:48 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 310):
Now when Palin calls Biden to congratulate him and starts out with calling him Joe he can quickly cut her off and tell her its Mr. Vice President Biden to you!

You mean Mr. Vice President HidinBiden.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 312):
Then so is Palin and Stevens and McCain and Keating 5

Which of the 8 was wanted for domestic terrorism?

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 312):
And he explaned why as it would be a way to extend a olive branch to open up talks,

Which sounds as stupid coming from you as it did from him. The only difference is he is naive enough to want to try that.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 312):
and the old way is not exactly burning down the house now is it.

Oh, I don't know, maybe because it works?

luv2fly · Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:56 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 313):
You mean Mr. Vice President HidinBiden.

And how long was it before Ms. Palin sat down with the press. Or should I say WEEKS!

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 313):
Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 312):
and the old way is not exactly burning down the house now is it.

Oh, I don't know, maybe because it works?

Really not talking to us is working, sanctions our working! Can I get some of whatever your smoking, cause it must be some damn good stuff if you believe what you post at times.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 313):
Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 312):
Then so is Palin and Stevens and McCain and Keating 5

Which of the 8 was wanted for domestic terrorism?

And how much time did they serve, remind me of that?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 313):
Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 312):
And he explaned why as it would be a way to extend a olive branch to open up talks,

Which sounds as stupid coming from you as it did from him. The only difference is he is naive enough to want to try that.

Why don't we just keep up the Bush way and invade countries based on false information.

RJdxer · Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:01 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 314):
And how long was it before Ms. Palin sat down with the press. Or should I say WEEKS!

Yet now she is out everywhere and where is Sen. Biden? Scranton?

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 314):
Really not talking to us is working,

Just ignore North Korea.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 314):
Can I get some of whatever your smoking, cause it must be some damn good stuff if you believe what you post at times.

Yet another sign of the love and feel good vibrations that eminate from the Obama crowd. Never a negative word.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 314):
And how much time did they serve, remind me of that?

For one who complains about deflections when they are nothing but comparisons...how about if you answer the question? Which of the 8 were wanted for domestic terrorism?

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 314):
Why don't we just keep up the Bush way and invade countries based on false information.

Or we could sit down with any Tom, Dick, or Harry, give them credibility and let them lie to the Presidents face. Yep that makes sense.

luv2fly · Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:09 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 315):
For one who complains about deflections when they are nothing but comparisons...how about if you answer the question? Which of the 8 were wanted for domestic terrorism?

Let's see Keating is serving time and Ayers is not, who was found guilty and who was not.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 315):
Or we could sit down with any Tom, Dick, or Harry, give them credibility and let them lie to the Presidents face. Yep that makes sense.

Sure let's not even try anything different, let's us just do what has not worked in the past.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 315):
Yet another sign of the love and feel good vibrations that eminate from the Obama crowd. Never a negative word.

If I said what I felt one of us would be banned.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 315):

Yet now she is out everywhere and where is Sen. Biden? Scranton?

Out everywhere in her $150,000.00 wardrobe. Yeah she is one of us. I know the consultants are to blame for herdressing like this. If she feels so strongly and such a strong woman they why did she not open her pie whole.

RJdxer · Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:19 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 316):
Let's see Keating is serving time and Ayers is not, who was found guilty and who was not.

He is? Last I checked his original convictions had been overturned. Of the 73 original counts he made a plea deal on 4 of them and was sentenced to time served. An appeals court threw out the state convictions and he was never re-tried. He is a free man today. Ayers has admitted his deeds time and time again. He spent as much time or more underground running from the authorities as Keating did in jail. One person cost people money, the other cost someone his life. Which is more important to you? I know I can make more money.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 316):
Sure let's not even try anything different, let's us just do what has not worked in the past.

Yep, North Korea has not agreed to any of our demands.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 316):
If I said what I felt one of us would be banned.

Yet another sign of the love and feel good vibrations that eminate from the Obama crowd. Never a negative word.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 316):
Out everywhere in her $150,000.00 wardrobe.

I see, like SuperFly impressions are of more importance to you, unless they include counting a self admited domestic terrorist, and a racist pastor as friends and mentors.

[Edited 2008-10-30 18:35:14]

[Edited 2008-10-30 18:35:35]

AirCop · Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:49 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 317):
He spent as much time or more underground running from the authorities as Keating did in jail. One person cost people money, the other cost someone his life. Which is more important to you? I know I can make more money.

You do realize that Ayers was brought into court to face charges, but due to misconduct on the government part the charges were dismissed, so officially as far as the legal system is concern Ayers committed no crime and didn't kill anyone. Anyways, in 1999, Keating pleaded guilty to a more limited set of wire fraud and bankruptcy fraud counts, and was sentenced to the time he had already served, therefore Keating is a convicted felon, whereas Ayers is not.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 317):
and a racist pastor as friends and mentors.

I wouldn't call this guy racist, until you walked in a black man shoes, living or worked in a ghetto, you should refrain from making an opinion like this.

StuckInCA · Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:14 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 311):
Your words not mine

Not my words. These are things people on the right are claiming. Your choice of words makes it seem that you agree with those assertions but are, perhaps, afraid to say it.

mt99 · Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:30 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 313):

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 312):
Then so is Palin and Stevens and McCain and Keating 5

Which of the 8 was wanted for domestic terrorism?

Shall we add G.Gordon Liddy to make it 9? You know McCains friend. The self confessed domestic terrorist?

PSA727 · Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:57 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 316):
Let's see Keating is serving time and Ayers is not, who was found guilty and who was not.

Ummm, let's see...Ayers indictment was dismissed because of a technicality involving a
wire-taping issue, and more importantly, Ayers admitted that he was guilty by his "guilty as
sin,free as a bird, isn't America wonderful" comment in 2001. And BTW, John McCain was
found not guilty by a congressional (Democrat no less) investigation into his involvement with
Keating. So what's your point (if that's what you were actually trying to make)?

NAV20 · Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:04 am

Can this really be true?

Excerpt from 'The Australian':-

"However, the Joe the Plumber trump card failed at an earlier rally, when Wurzelbacher was nowhere to be seen when asked to step forward.

“Joe's with us today. Joe, where are you? Where is Joe?” McCain asked, only to be greeted by an awkward silence. “Is Joe with us today? Joe, I thought you were here today.”

"McCain swiftly brushed off the moment however. “Well, you're all Joe the Plumbers!” McCain said. “So all of you stand up!”

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...story/0,25197,24580195-601,00.html

This sort of organisational stuffup seems to be happening to McCain all the time. - first the failure to check out Sarah Palin's 'skeletons in the cupboard, then the failure to find out that Joe hadn't been paying his taxes anyway, now not even checking that he'd turned up before making him the centrepiece at a rally.

'Check, double-check, triple-check.....' is - or should be - the golden rule in all forms of publicity events.

If McCain loses a lot of the blame will fall on his campaign 'minders' for not doing the simple 'legwork' that is all it takes to avoid embarrassing stuff-ups like that - which tend, in the TV-and-soundbyte-dominated campaigns nowadays, to be the centrepiece of the evening's news bulletins.

RJdxer · Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:10 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 318):
You do realize that Ayers was brought into court to face charges, but due to misconduct on the government part the charges were dismissed, so officially as far as the legal system is concern Ayers committed no crime and didn't kill anyone.

If you read what I wrote, that is essentially what I said. There is also Ayers quote on the way out of the courtroom, "Guilty as hell, free as a bird". Not to mention his numerous admissions of guilt in the bombings. Or are you going to discount those facts as well? He admitted he took part in those actions of his own free will.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 318):
Anyways, in 1999, Keating pleaded guilty to a more limited set of wire fraud and bankruptcy fraud counts, and was sentenced to the time he had already served, therefore Keating is a convicted felon, whereas Ayers is not.

Which does not change the fact that by his own admission Ayers was a part of the group that bombed both the Pentagon and targets in New York City. That he never served any jail time does not change that.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 318):
I wouldn't call this guy racist

Sorry, I forgot, blacks can't be racist.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 319):
These are things people on the right are claiming.

And of course everyone on the left is completely free of saying anything negative about Sen. McCain or Gov. Palin and are just pure as the driven snow.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 319):
Your choice of words makes it seem that you agree with those assertions but are, perhaps, afraid to say it.

I'm not to afraid to say what I think if that is what you are driving at. Senator Obama has laid out policies that are socialist in nature, if he attempts to implement them then he becomes a socialist. If he loses I'm sure that tape of him clapping at those comments will surface as the democratic party seeks to explain why yet again they have managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I have only used the Muslim context in reply to another who used just as outlandish a claim against Gov. Palin. As he described very well to Joe the plumber, he wants to give those behind Joe a leg up with his tax policy. Can't deny what he clearly said on tape although it provides some interesting posts to read.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 320):
Shall we add G.Gordon Liddy to make it 9? You know McCains friend. The self confessed domestic terrorist?

So the head of a burglary ring now falls in the same lot with a domestic terrrorist that bombed the Pentagon and killed a person with bombs in New York? Careful you don't hurt yourself stretching.

mt99 · Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:15 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 323):

So the head of a burglary ring now falls in the same lot with a domestic terrrorist that bombed the Pentagon and killed a person with bombs in New York? Careful you don't hurt yourself stretching.

Yes, Yes it does. The ties between McCain and Liddy are much closer than Obamas with Ayers

RJdxer · Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:47 am

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 324):
Yes, Yes it does.

So you are actually suggesting that someone who headed a burglary ring is on the same level as someone who bombed the Pentagon as well as several targets in New York that ended up in the death of one individual? That is what you are seriously suggesting? You think being associated with murder and terrorism is on the same level criminally with planting bugs and rifling through some files? Your sense of proportion is completely out of whack.

Dreadnought · Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:21 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 318):
You do realize that Ayers was brought into court to face charges, but due to misconduct on the government part the charges were dismissed, so officially as far as the legal system is concern Ayers committed no crime and didn't kill anyone.

Leding to his famous line walking out of the courthouse, "Guilty as hell and free as a bird - what a country!"

Technicalities aside, Ayers is a POS who committed acts of terrorism.

Aaron747 · Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:54 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 326):
Ayers is a POS who committed acts of terrorism.

Indeed, but McCain advisor and longtime Washington insider lobbyist Charlie Black is no less a POS who has made a fortune serving less than American interests. Why is this guy still on the team?

We can also note that BKSH (Black's lobbying firm) and their contemporaries—Republican and Democrat—have galloped through decades of military coups and bloody civil wars, advancing the agendas of Saudi princes, oil sheiks, and numerous dictators at the peril of U.S economic and national security...

Americans might have expected that a candidate who claims “it’s over for the special interests” would refuse to play the lobbyists’ game. Just the opposite: John McCain seems to think that foreign agents make ideal advisers. So it should come as no surprise that, from Tbilisi to Tel Aviv, he has trouble distinguishing other countries’ interests from our own.

http://www.amconmag.com/article/2008/oct/06/00023/

NAV20 · Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:31 pm

Really, guys.........

Obama was eight years old when Bill Ayers was active with the Weathermen. By the time he (Obama) met the guy, he was Professor of Education at the University of Illinois in Chicago.

Ayer's Honors and Awards include:-

2005-6 - Randolph Distinguished Visitng Professor, Vassar College
2005 - Distinguished Scholar, McKissick Museum of Education, University of South Carolina
2003 - Visiting Scholar, Lesley University
1999 - Distinguished Professor of Education
1997 - Senior University Scholar
1996 - Doctor of Humane Letters (Honorary), Nazareth College

Perhaps you should check out and 'witchhunt' all the people who appointed Ayers to his high positions and also conferred all those honours on him?

At a guess, all of them are as old as, or even older than, Ayers - and will have known full well not only what Ayers was involved in, but also the atmosphere of the times.

As far as I'm concerned, on the principle of 'innocent until proved guilty,' there is no justification, in our society, for ostracising Ayers - even though I'm older than he is. And that goes double for Obama, who was a small child when Ayers was an 'activist.' I expect that you guys were happy enough about the whole Bush Administration hopping into political bed with Muammar Ghadafi of Libya just recently - who committed much more serious terrorist attacks a lot more recently than anything the Weathermen did.

In any case, just on the basis of practical business/politics, harping on about Ayers doesn't seem to be doing McCain/Palin any good at all. Not surprising to me - my impression is that, like the sensible people they are, a majority of the US public are bothered about what is going to happen in the future - not about what may or may not have happened in the distant past.

johnboy · Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:42 pm

Florida GOP County Chair: Help! Black People are Voting!!!

This guy sounds like a real piece of work.

(there are links in the story to other more "palatable" MSM outlets for those who get their panties in a wad hearing any news reports from Daily Kos)

mt99 · Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:16 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 325):
So you are actually suggesting that someone who headed a burglary ring is on the same level as someone who bombed the Pentagon as well as several targets in New York that ended up in the death of one individual?

McCain's pall advocated the killing of Federal Agents:

""Now if the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms comes to disarm you and they are bearing arms, resist them with arms," ... "Kill the sons of bitches""

Sounds like basis or Republican family values..

[Edited 2008-10-31 07:18:07]

santosdumont · Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:52 pm

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 330):
McCain's pall advocated the killing of Federal Agents:

""Now if the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms comes to disarm you and they are bearing arms, resist them with arms," ... "Kill the sons of bitches""

You forgot the "head shots" part of the G-man's tirade.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 323):
So the head of a burglary ring now falls in the same lot with a domestic terrrorist that bombed the Pentagon and killed a person with bombs in New York? Careful you don't hurt yourself stretching.

Liddy was no cat burglar. Among the recommendations he made during his tenure on Nixon's Committee To Re-elect the President: firebombing the Brookings Institution in Washington, and kidnapping anti-war protesters and taking them to Mexico. In his autobiography, he also admitted plotting to kill famed muckracker Jack Anderson.

RJdxer · Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:22 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 328):
Obama was eight years old when Bill Ayers was active with the Weathermen.

Which makes his association all the much worse since by the time he met Ayers, Ayers reputation and past were documented and admitted to by Ayers himself.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 328):
At a guess, all of them are as old as, or even older than, Ayers - and will have known full well not only what Ayers was involved in, but also the atmosphere of the times.

And are the 60's "wannabes" that never were and still idolize Ayers.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 328):
As far as I'm concerned, on the principle of 'innocent until proved guilty,' there is no justification, in our society, for ostracising Ayers - even though I'm older than he is

When a person freely admits participation, even revels in it by saying they wished they could have done more, what is there to prove? OJ Simpson was not proved guilty by a jury of his peers, yet he is an outcast for that crime to this day. If here were still free why not pal around with him?

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 330):
McCain's pall advocated the killing of Federal Agents:

""Now if the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms comes to disarm you and they are bearing arms, resist them with arms," ... "Kill the sons of bitches""

Sounds like basis or Republican family values..

Sounds like he was talking about the raid on the Branch Davidians which virtually everyone agrees was mounted incorrectly. If you are going to quote Carl Bernstein why not give him some credit?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-b...-and-the-mccain-g-go_b_134256.html

You cold also give him credit for passing on misinformation:

"Kill him," a man in the crowd responded last week, when Palin declared -yet again - "He's palling around with terrorists who would target their own country."

Wonder what else he got wrong in the article? By his own admission he picked up some of the info off left wing blogs.

The Liddy-McCain symbiosis has been mentioned in a number of posts on the Internet - mostly by bloggers and sites identified with The Left.

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 331):
In his autobiography, he also admitted plotting to kill famed muckracker Jack Anderson.

Ayers actually did help kill someone.

Liddy's crimes did not include anything that could be argued as "terrorism" domestic or othewise. Nice try at deflection though.

santosdumont · Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:32 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 332):
Ayers actually did help kill someone.

Liddy's crimes did not include anything that could be argued as "terrorism" domestic or othewise

Al Capone was nailed for tax evasion, so I guess by that logic he wasn't a terrorist either.

Liddy's proposed modus operandi (firebombing, kidnapping, murder) leaves no doubt as to where he stands.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 332):
Nice try at deflection though.

Ditto.

mt99 · Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:36 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 332):
The Liddy-McCain symbiosis has been mentioned in a number of posts on the Internet - mostly by bloggers and sites identified with The Left

Lets use a source you are a bit more familiar witth:

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Oct17/0,4670,McCainLetterman,00.html

"McCain said he knew him. Then, after a commercial break, McCain said, "I know Gordon Liddy. He paid his debt, he went to prison ... I'm not in any way embarrassed to know Gordon Liddy."

He is not embarrassed by someone who is on the record saying those terrible things? Even proud?

From your own link:

"McCAIN: Well, you know, I'm proud of you. I'm proud of your family. I'm proud to know your son, Tom, who's a great and wonderful guy. And it's always a pleasure for me to come on your program, Gordon. And congratulations on your continued success and adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great."

I guess being a small time burglar is "what keeps our nation great"

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 332):
everyone agrees was mounted incorrectly.

So its OK to encourage people to kill because of things that are mounted incorrectly?

RJdxer · Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:50 pm

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 333):
Al Capone was nailed for tax evasion, so I guess by that logic he wasn't a terrorist either.

Nope, he was a murderer and a rackateer. He did not seek to overthrow the legitimate standing government as the Weathermen did.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 334):
I guess being a small time burglar is "what keeps our nation great"

Can you provide a quote where LIddy has advocated the radical overthrow of the government of the United States? I can provide several from William Ayers circa 1968.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 334):
So its OK to encourage people to kill because of things that are mounted incorrectly?

If someone is trying to knock down your door and have not correctly identified themselves and you are in fear for your life then yes, it is ok to open fire. Of course wasting your time learning the facts of that raid would be too much to ask for I guess. sarcastic

luv2fly · Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:58 pm

First the McCain camp does not fully vet Paln and now he firmly embraces Joe the plumber! My god you can not make this stuff up.

Olbermann: Who does Joe think heâ?Ts fooling?

Oct. 29: In a Special Campaign Comment, Keith Olbermann asks â?oJoe the Plumberâ? to give up playing the role of McCain/Palin campaign prop because he is either supplying false information or making a fool of himself.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27445243#27445243

santosdumont · Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:24 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 335):
Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 333):
Al Capone was nailed for tax evasion, so I guess by that logic he wasn't a terrorist either.

Nope, he was a murderer and a rackateer. He did not seek to overthrow the legitimate standing government as the Weathermen did.

Al was never convicted of murder or racketeering. But history has still proven him a terrorist.

Since when has seeking to overthrow a government been the sole litmus test for terrorism?

By that logic, narco-traffickers aren't terrorists...

If memory serves, Ayers wasn't convicted of anything. So, presumably McCain's ditty about an individual having "paid his debt" to society applies here as well.

RJdxer · Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:44 pm

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 337):
But history has still proven him a terrorist.

It has? A political terrorist? Source?

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 337):
Since when has seeking to overthrow a government been the sole litmus test for terrorism?

Ummm, what else would you call a person seeking to violently overthrow a democratically elected government that has the support of the population?

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 337):
By that logic, narco-traffickers aren't terrorists...

Correct, they are criminals, not terrorists.

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 337):
If memory serves, Ayers wasn't convicted of anything. So, presumably McCain's ditty about an individual having "paid his debt" to society applies here as well.

You can't have paid your debt if you never went to jail. Ayers has however freely admitted his role in the Weathermen and only regrets not having been able to do more.

You can continue down this line if you wish but unless you wish to try and twist or change several well cemented definitions of accepted words and their meaning it's rather pointless.

santosdumont · Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:02 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 338):
Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 337):
But history has still proven him a terrorist.

It has? A political terrorist? Source?

Playing fast and loose as always, RJ. I didn't say anything about politics, although one could conceivably argue that all terrorists are, ultimately, driven by politics; Al Capone certainly had his eyes on the political machinery at some level.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 338):
Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 337):
Since when has seeking to overthrow a government been the sole litmus test for terrorism?

Ummm, what else would you call a person seeking to violently overthrow a democratically elected government that has the support of the population?

That wasn't my question. Let's try again. So terrorists necessarily must seek the violent overthrow of a democratically elected government? Otherwise they are common criminals?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 338):
Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 337):
By that logic, narco-traffickers aren't terrorists...

Correct, they are criminals, not terrorists.

Play academic word games at your own peril. Colombian narco-traffickers are pure terrorists, as are the Russian mafia.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 338):
You can't have paid your debt if you never went to jail.

So in that regard, Ayers already has a leg up on the G-man.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 338):
Ayers has however freely admitted his role in the Weathermen and only regrets not having been able to do more.

But he wasn't convicted of anything. The question is moot. Liddy admitted to his crimes, has shown no remorse for his conduct, and publicly called for the murder of federal law enforcement officials. The G-man, mind you, isn't some granola head in the wilderness of academia. He is a public figure with easy access to the corridors of power.

As others on the board have no doubt pointed out, the Right is just using Ayers as Obama's post September 11th Willie Horton.

Dreadnought · Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:47 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 328):
Perhaps you should check out and 'witchhunt' all the people who appointed Ayers to his high positions and also conferred all those honours on him?

No need to witchhunt them. Just make sure that those institutions never get a single charitable donation or any sort of cooperation of any kind as long as those people have positions of responsibility there.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 328):
As far as I'm concerned, on the principle of 'innocent until proved guilty,' there is no justification, in our society, for ostracising Ayers - even though I'm older than he is.

So, let's say you know a guy who is a child molester and killer. He got released because the police screwed up the evidence, but he fully admits doing it, and continues to talk about how proud he was about it, how it made him feel good and that he wishes he could have molested more children.

On the basis that the court let him go, you would have no problem with associating yourself with him, both personally and professionally?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 328):
And that goes double for Obama, who was a small child when Ayers was an 'activist.'

Would you willingly associate yourself with a proud nazi (make him a Auschwitz Sondercommando - the guys who handled the gas chambers), just because that happened before you were born?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 328):
I expect that you guys were happy enough about the whole Bush Administration hopping into political bed with Muammar Ghadafi of Libya just recently - who committed much more serious terrorist attacks a lot more recently than anything the Weathermen did.

When talking about heads of state, it's a different situation. It is the duty of a government to deal with people that you would not trust with your children in order to defend/advance the interests of your country. I recall a quote from a former president - can't remember who - who commented on the absurdity of having to smile and be diplomatic with leaders he knows are crooks and liars and who in a civilized country could not be elected as janitor.

Arrow · Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:49 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 338):
Ummm, what else would you call a person seeking to violently overthrow a democratically elected government that has the support of the population?

Salvador Allende could give you a good answer to that one. By your definition, all the founding fathers are terrorists.

I still don't get why Ayers is an issue. I thought guilt by association was a failing of communist societies, not democratic ones.

PSA727 · Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:10 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 341):
I still don't get why Ayers is an issue. I thought guilt by association was a failing of communist societies, not democratic ones.

Bill Ayers, Tony Rezko, Rashid Khalidi, et al, are more than associations of Obama. They
all helped Obama move up politically. And people are looking at these associations the
wrong way. It should be: why did these people choose to associate with Barack Obama?
Do you think that Bill Ayers would help launch Obama's State Senate run if he didn't feel
"comfortable" with Obama? Remember, Ayers dedicated one of his first books to the
assassin of RFK, Sirhan Sirhan. Do you really think that Tony Rezko would have offered
Obama a job out of law school and help him fundraise for his campaigns if there wasn't a
benefit for Rezko himself? Why don't you ask him, he's in a federal prison awaiting his
sentencing for corruption and bribery charges, so he's got plenty of time for it.

StuckInCA · Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:28 pm

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 342):
Rashid Khalidi

Please explain to me what the problem with this man is? And more importantly, how his "association" with Obama is a problem?

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 342):
et al

Such as?

AirCop · Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:34 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 343):
Please explain to me what the problem with this man is?

Very good question, considering how Senator John McCain served as chairman of the International Republican Institute during the 1990s which provided grants worth $500,000 to the Center for Palestine Research and Studies which Khalidi co-founded

Dreadnought · Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:45 pm

Quoting AirCop (Reply 344):
Very good question, considering how Senator John McCain served as chairman of the International Republican Institute during the 1990s which provided grants worth $500,000 to the Center for Palestine Research and Studies which Khalidi co-founded

That was back in the days when the PA was getting started, and the PLO and various sub-groups had, it seems, renounced terrorism and were working towards democratic elections. Those funds were to assist in organizing elections.

It was later, around 2000 that the whole thing fell apart, and it became apparent that the earlier renunciations of terrorism were a sham.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 343):
And more importantly, how his "association" with Obama is a problem?

Seen alone, it's not much a big deal - all of us have met with nasty people at some time or another. But when seen in context of Obama's other associations, it becomes another piece of a pattern of associations. Most decent people try to avoid such acquaintances. You smile and say hello and make a polite exit, but under your breath, you say, "I want nothing to do with this guy". The fact that Obama seems to know so many a$$holes and does not seem to have the instinct to stay clear indicates a lack of judgement and moral fiber. Does he have a concience? He's a lawyer, so that's already a bad indicator... Wink

StuckInCA · Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:53 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 345):
all of us have met with nasty people at some time or another

So, seriously... why is this guy "nasty?" Is it because he's Muslim? Is it because someone accused him of being a spokesman for the PLO?

What if I accuse you of that?

He's been critical of Israel and of Palestinians.

Respectable people are calling the McCain camp out for this character assassination. He's a respected professor, not a terrorist. Not a criminal.

Unless you have a better source.

StuckInCA · Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:05 pm

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 342):

Your "et al" comment reminds me of this exchange between CNN's Rick Sanchez and Michael Goldfarb (McCain's campaign spokesman):

GOLDFARB: Look. You are missing the point again, Rick. The point is that Barack Obama has a long track record of being around anti-Semitic and anti-Israel and anti-American rhetoric.

SANCHEZ: Can you name one other person besides Khalidi who he hangs around that is anti-Semitic?

GOLDFARB: Yes, he pals around with William Ayers.

SANCHEZ: No, no, the question I asked you is that can you name one other person who he hangs around with who is anti-Semitic? Because that is what you said.

GOLDFARB: Look, we know there are people who Barack Obama has been in hot water--

SANCHEZ: Michael, I asked you the name one person. One.

GOLDFARB: Rick --

SANCHEZ: You said he hangs around with people who are anti-Semitic. Okay. Khalidi and name other people that we all know about?

GOLDFARB: And rick, we both know who number two is.

SANCHEZ: Who? Would you tell us?

GOLDFARB: No, Rick, I think we all know who we are talking about here.

SANCHEZ: Somebody who is anti-Semitic that he hangs around with.

GOLDFARB: I think we all know who we are talking about.

SANCHEZ: Say it.

GOLDFARB: I think we all know who we're talking about, rick.

SANCHEZ: Well, you say that his policies differ from Barack Obama and many other people, and either way, we have the leave it at that.

Straight talk express, baby!

Here's a nice editorial on the "idiot wind" (McCain's attacks on Khalidi)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2008/10/30/AR2008103003244.html

WITH THE presidential campaign clock ticking down, Sen. John McCain has suddenly discovered a new boogeyman to link to Sen. Barack Obama: a sometimes controversial but widely respected Middle East scholar named Rashid Khalidi. In the past couple of days, Mr. McCain and his running mate, Gov. Sarah Palin, have likened Mr. Khalidi, the director of a Middle East institute at Columbia University, to neo-Nazis; called him "a PLO spokesman"

For the record, Mr. Khalidi is an American born in New York who graduated from Yale a couple of years after George W. Bush. For much of his long academic career, he taught at the University of Chicago, where he and his wife became friends with Barack and Michelle Obama. In the early 1990s, he worked as an adviser to the Palestinian delegation at peace talks in Madrid and Washington sponsored by the first Bush administration. We don't agree with a lot of what Mr. Khalidi has had to say about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict over the years, and Mr. Obama has made clear that he doesn't, either. But to compare the professor to neo-Nazis -- or even to Mr. Ayers -- is a vile smear.

PSA727 · Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:29 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 343):
Quoting PSA727 (Reply 342):
et al

Such as?

Well...if you insist...Khalid Al-Mansour, Jeremiah Wright, Father Pfleger, Bernadine Dohrn.
Now that I think about it, are there any mainstream associations of Obama from Chicago?

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 346):
Respectable people are calling the McCain camp out for this character assassination. He's a respected professor, not a terrorist. Not a criminal.

No he's not a terrorist or a criminal, but neither is David Duke. Does that make his viewpoints
more valid? Khalidi has some very interesting views on Israel, and if the L.A. Times releases
the video of his farewell dinner attended by Obama AND Bill Ayers (I guess it was the 2nd
time Obama had met with Ayers in his lifetime Yeah sure

) we all could settle this issue.

RJdxer · Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:50 pm

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 339):
Playing fast and loose as always, RJ.

Yes you are. You are smart enough to know full well the meaning of terrorist yet you choose to play dumb and now have painted yourself into a corner.

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 339):
Otherwise they are common criminals?

Yes.

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 339):
Colombian narco-traffickers are pure terrorists, as are the Russian mafia.

They are criminals looking to make money illegally, not overthrow governments. Their first choice is to pay off authorities. The Weathermens first choice was to blow them up.

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 339):
So in that regard, Ayers already has a leg up on the G-man.

Never said he didn't. Still does not change the fact that Ayers admitted his role in those crimes.

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 339):
G-man, mind you, isn't some granola head in the wilderness of academia.

? Perhaps you should look into Ayers involvement in Illinois politics. Now they have one of their own on the door step of the White House.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 341):
By your definition, all the founding fathers are terrorists.

Not true since the founding fathers were trying to overthrow a monarchy which had not been democraticaly elected by the people. The King ruled by "divine" right and "privilege".

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