Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 191): It's not about just attacking people but maintaining a deterrent.

That's already taken care of, Sv7887 - in the form of 'M-A-D,' Mutually-Assured-Destruction.' The Russians (the only nation with the capacity seriously to damage the United States), will never dare to try it on - they know only too well that they'll be 'obliterated in short order,' as they used to say.

As to the rest - 'tactical resistance' - I got my share of the boredom and wet feet and frozen fingers that it took to discourage the Warsaw Pact from trying to bust through the Fulda Gap. But I think we all sort of knew in our hearts - the Russians and the East Germans as well - that it was never actually going to happen.............

Neither side could have 'won' - and that remains the case.

When we saw them through the Observation Post field-glasses, we used to wave. They used to wave back - but only after they'd glanced around to make sure that no officer was watching - and only with their hand low down in front of their chests so they couldn't be seen from behind.

Poor sods. We were maybe risking charges of 'conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline' - THEY were probably risking getting themselves shot at dawn...........

Increasingly feel that 'think yourself lucky' is the best advice that ancient bastards like me can offer to younger people.....

[Edited 2008-11-05 07:02:03]

Quoting NA (Reply 197): Bush

Pay attention to my question! I ask, again, if (IF) things become worse under OBAMA, then what?

I didn't ask about Bush, I didn't ask about the war, I didn't ask about the national debt, I did not ask for any of that. I asked, AGAIN, if (IF) things become worse under Obama, then what?

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 200): They key here is that we've been on quicksand for a long time since the mid 1990s.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 200): Bush certainly spent money like a drunken sailor and that is why the GOP deserved to lose. 9/11 would have forced Gore to attack Afghanistan. Pres Obama also seeks to focus on Pakistan and Afghanistan, so these worries won't go away.

Good comparison. Lets hope he ends like a drunken sailor, too. According to many articles I read the seed for the financial trouble was laid during Reagans reign, not in the mid 90s. That it dates back to a former Republic presidency also would partly explain why Bush did not correct it, as he would have done so if it would have been a fault of the Clinton aministration I would expect.
Of cause Obama can´t stop the war on terror completely. To find Bin Laden should be a task of Obama as well. What he can do ist to stop the unjust Iraqi war, which was wrong from the outset as it was built on pure lies, pure lies that remind me of the beginning of WWII.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 203): I didn't ask about Bush, I didn't ask about the war, I didn't ask about the national debt, I did not ask for any of that. I asked, AGAIN, if (IF) things become worse under Obama, then what?

Then it would mean Obama is just as bad as Bush, meaning he'll get re-elected in 4 years (seriously, how did he pull that one!?) and then we'll be in 8 years criticizing Obama. And hoping the next guy will do better.

No one is flawless, especially amongst politicians ... they all have a dark side, some more than others, but none of them are saints and they usually owe big favours here and there for being in office, but IMO with a positive apporach (that's the "change" that was much needed), things are bound to improve. I honestly can't believe he'll do worse, I think he'll be an improvment in many ways, but if he's not, history will judge him the same way it's going to judge W. (Again, how did he get 4 more years???!!)ç

rgds

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 192): If Obama proves to be the next Carter in terms of military, well, I'll let you talk to 2,000+ military personel I work with let you know their feelings on him during his administration.

I'm not sure why everyone is making such a fuss about military cuts. Our defense budget can stand a substantial cut, don't believe the right scare tactics. Even with a 20% cut our defense department will still be the best trained, best equipped military machine in the world! Now, it should be interesting to point out that under the Republican controlled Congress the Air Force was actually forced to cut down its personnel, something they called "Force Shaping". Curiously we didn't hear the right rise up in anger about that one, though. Guess military cuts are only bad if it's a Democrat proposing them.

It was very interesting to read this forum last night immediately after the results were announced. Folks calling the US a socialist country, the end of democracy, even one loon suggesting that Obama killed his own grandmother. Fact is the public made its choice very clear, signaling a general disappointment with the way things have been run for the last 8 years. It was a decisive victory and perhaps a turning point for our nation.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 190): This much is true. I may be "jumping the gun" as they say, but I know my history. If Obama proves to be the next Carter in terms of military, well, I'll let you talk to 2,000+ military personel I work with let you know their feelings on him during his administration.

Obama May Continue Defense Growth, Lifting Lockheed, Northrop

"He does understand the criticality of an adequate defense budget and importance of strong defense,'' said Marion Blakey, president of the Aerospace Industries Association, a trade group in Arlington, Virginia, that represents companies including Lockheed Martin Corp. and Northrop Grumman Corp."

Congrats to Obama!
And not to forget, Congrats to all Americans as I hope this will bring lots of good things for you and you families.

As US has a big impact on the rest of the world, I hope Obama will bring lots of sunshine around the world.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden

If the budget gained from cutting into the MIL spending is invested into new energy-research and alternative ,non-fossil ways to make electricity or power cars-what's wrong with it ?
Thousands of jobs can be created and compensate a natural fluctuation within the US armed forces.
It's different jobs and perspectives,but with a more balanced foreign policy, you need less military troops on the ground and abroad,since you start to de-escalate events.

Ha ha ha ha, apparently SKY News included me in their footage of celebrations in Times Square from last night. For all you Brits, if you saw an overjoyed guy in a bright pink t-shirt wearing an American flag as a cape, yuuup that's me!

Ahhhh, the morning after... SOOOO GOOOOD!!!!!!!!!

Quoting NA (Reply 202): According to many articles I read the seed for the financial trouble was laid during Reagans reign, not in the mid 90s.

The finacial trouble may go back alot further . Like the New Deal and its long reaching effects for instance ... We now have a dependent minded electorate ,and it serves only to create a larger and larger central federal governemnt.

"Yes We Can" !! I say , you could have all along ... you dont need Obama to help you.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 205): Oh, how touching... I almost shed a tear.

Oh how annoying...you're not even old enough to have adult memories of what he's talking about!  

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 207): It's different jobs and perspectives,but with a more balanced foreign policy, you need less military troops on the ground and abroad,since you start to de-escalate events.

A good start would be telling Japan to get off its ass and amend Article 9, so we can pull everything but the bare essentials out of here and let them take care of themselves.

It's getting so bad locally the USMC issued a mandatory order last week that servicemen on Okinawa are not permitted in any public areas other than their residences. They can use local roads for transportation but otherwise cannot mingle with the public in places like shopping areas, parks, schools, etc.

Congratulatons to President-elect Obama and all of you who worked toward this. He won, in large part because you were all very serious about it. In the final days of the campaign I had two or three Obama campaigners a day knock on my rather Republican-looking door. You did well.

I wish him well. I can't recall a time when being President looked like less fun than today but he wanted it. I have a feeling that he is going to get a "thank you" note from Senator McCain before too long. The outgoing administration will have kicked over the barrel of snakes on their way out the door. (in fairness the (D) Congress put quite a few of those snakes in the barrel in the first place.

A couple of thoughts:

1. Those of you expecting a miraculous new age for America are exhibiting the childlike naiveté that keeps the two-party system alive.

2. Those of you who are expecting disaster: in the words of your mouthpiece Limbaugh: "ditto" Don't believe everything you tell each other in emails!

The truth is circulating out there in one of those crap emails that we all get. It says, summing up, that all our problems are the RESULT OF Democrats and Republicans. One or the other has controlled our government for longer than any of us can remember and NEITHER party has ever actually made anything better - only more profitable for their friends. But go ahead - believe. It isn't fashionable to believe in a Deity anymore so by all means, believe in a political party with all the fervor and zeal you would have given to religion in another age. One myth is as good as another.

The most fascinating aspect of this election, to me is this. If our "prejudices" are supposed to be a major factor, what does it say about voting Americans that we would have a black male President before we would have a white woman President? It is an interesting question, perhaps worthy of a thread of its own.

BTW, I won my bet. I've been saying for more than six presidential elections now that America will NEVER have a Vietnam veteran for President. It is one of our secret prejudices. I think McCain was probably the last one to have a shot. We are getting too old now.

I wonder if it will curse the Iraq veterans too?

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 170): And we are expanding and profitable currently. I expect all that will change soon.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 174): I've effectively lost my job (defense contractor.)

I hope this s**t doesn't happen to you.

But to blame it on Obama (he doesn't take over until Jan.20) is bizarre. And it's time for a reality check and a lowering of expectations. All this s**t is going to happen regardless of who occupies the White House, and neither McCain, nor Obama, nor the House, nor the Senate can do much to stop it.

The US and the world are going to be in a recession for a while. Obama's (or McCain's had he won) ability to do anything about that is severely limited by a decade or so of fiscal mismanagement, out-of-control debt growth, and continuous deficit financing. There is very little maneuvering room, and there is no money. They keep talking about another economic stimulus package as though there's some magic vault somewhere stuffed with dollars ready for the taking.

Tax cuts? The conservative dogma that lowering taxes will stimulate economic growth and raise revenues isn't going to work this time. Raise taxes? That won't work either. Incur more debt? Gee, just what the country's balance sheets need. This is a rock and a hard place era.

Obama may be a one-term president not because he screws up, but because he can't stop the tide from going out. This "messiah" image is grossly unfair. I wish him all the best, but I sure don't envy him.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 211): 1. Those of you expecting a miraculous new age for America are exhibiting the childlike naiveté that keeps the two-party system alive. 2. Those of you who are expecting disaster: in the words of your mouthpiece Limbaugh: "ditto" Don't believe everything you tell each other in emails!

I fully agree with you. There will be change, but less than many expect or hope for. The problems are too big, the money too small for a dramatic quick change. But there will be a changer to a more united, more socially responsible and less cold and reckless society.

What bugs me is the constant media message that the US has its first black president. He is as much black as he is white. The statement that he is black is somewhat racist in my opinion. He is the perfect expression of a multicultural society, much more than the white anglo-saxon men before him.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 211): A couple of thoughts: 1. Those of you expecting a miraculous new age for America are exhibiting the childlike naiveté that keeps the two-party system alive. 2. Those of you who are expecting disaster: in the words of your mouthpiece Limbaugh: "ditto" Don't believe everything you tell each other in emails!

You do have a point. I honestly don't believe Obama will have a strong effect on the country either way, except PR-wise and political awareness-wise. Our energy problems won't get better, our healthcare system won't change, and our taxes will still be high for everyone. Gays won't legally be allowed to marry. Illegal immigration will remain unchecked. Don't ask-don't tell will still be in effect in the military. We will still have problems in the Middle East, and conflicts will still ensue with people we consider our enemies. Our economy will still ebb and flow as usual.


I think he's a good man, I think he represents a lot of good ideals, but he is the consummate politician, who will be too busy trying to pander to everyone to really take a hard line on anything.

In other words, I don't see my life or the lives of the sick and impoverished really changing all that much in the next 4 years. But overall I think electing him was a good thing in terms of energizing people who felt disenfranchised previously.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 196): You'll call for his head too just like Bush or continue to think Obama is the best thing since slice bread?

If he proves to be a naive simpleton who repeatedly shows poor judgment and surrounds himself with incompetents, we should all "call for his head".

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 196): FYI, the Democrats have NOTHING to fall back on now. Blaming Republicans anymore is mute, since its the Democrats who now control all of congress. So if things start becoming worse, blaming Republicans isn't going to fly anymore (but they are still going to do it anyway.)

I think you're wrong. Just because the fire department has arrived on the scene, that doesn't mean those who lit the house on fire are off the hook and blameless.

This election is not a magic reset button that transfers responsibility for years of deeply flawed leadership and inept governance. Some of Bush’s more serious mistakes will take considerably longer than one, or even two, Obama terms to correct. Some of those failures, particularly 4,190 dead Americans in Iraq, can never, ever be fixed.

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 67): I don't understand why people are calling Obama a socialist/communist

Because he hates free enterprise and people that make a lot of money. He wants to tax them to death to give to the lazy people that don't like to work and cry they have nothing.

Quoting Dw9115 (Reply 74): I hope everyone enjoys their new taxes

How about the jobs that get lost when the businesses that don't want to pay the higer taxes flee to India and Malasia? That will be fun.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 86): I can be proud of America again...

Guess you went to the Michelle Obama school.   

Quoting Arrow (Reply 91): I'm delighted to see the first step has been taken to restore America to its role as a beacon of freedom

Freedom? We had it, a place where you can make your fortune through hard work but now you will have to give some of it to the people who want to sit on the couch all day. Freedom was lost last night.

Quoting Flymia (Reply 117): Lets see if its 4% and with how the economy is going right now yes this will hurt. People who are making $250,000 are still struggling and this is only going to hurt. Also the raise in capital gain tax. This is not the time to raise taxes on anyone!

Try 10%, its the only way he can do the things he has promised, which I think he will reneg on anyway.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 129): Congrats to Obama.....Now it would be interesting to see what happens on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. regds

Absolutely nothing. Or codepink will begin to picket in front of Obama's house. We have an administration that will do nothing militarily simply to appease the anti-war groups and we are a lot less safer than yesterday as a result. I would def avoid NYC for a long while. Al Qaida has to be very happy today. Unless they got the invite from Obama to "talk".

We will discuss the Obama presidency in 4 years. I am sure he will be a one termer. Should be fun.

While I didn't vote for him, I can support him because he is OUR president.

Having said that, it seems that this election had a ring of "style over substance" to it.

That was my perception. McCain made some mistakes, probably the most blatant was cowing to the extreme right wing of the GOP and picking Gov. Palin. If it was necessary to pick a female VP, there were many, many more qualified candidates out there that could easily have filled the bill.

I've always been a Republican, but I usually split my ticket because I'm not so naive to think that one party has the best candidates. I just wonder where and how did the "born again" right wingers hijack my party? If anything, it was their control of the GOP that lost it for McCain. Most independents either voted for a third party candidate or for Obama because they couldn't stomach the right wing stuff.

Anyway, good luck to OUR president. You'll need alot of help and I hope you're up to it. Remember to listen to both sides and take what Pelosi and Reid tell you with a grain of salt.

Quoting NA (Reply 213): The statement that he is black is somewhat racist in my opinion

I was thinking that too ... why so much emphasis on "black" president all the time ... I understand it's an important thing, but the most important thing is that he is the next President, not the "black President" ...

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Reply 24): It blows my mind the we just elected a man that would have a hard time passing the background check to become a FBI or CIA agent. I

Quick! better tell the intelligence community before it's too late! 


Obama to begin intelligence briefings

By NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer

CHICAGO – Barack Obama will begin receiving highly classified briefings from top intelligence officials Thursday, as the rush of his campaign gives way to intensive preparations to take over as commander in chief and build a Democratic administration

more...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081105/ap_on_el_pr/obama

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 203): Then it would mean Obama is just as bad as Bush, meaning he'll get re-elected in 4 years (seriously, how did he pull that one!?)

Because the serious f**k ups Bush pulled didn't happen until his second term.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 204): I'm not sure why everyone is making such a fuss about military cuts. Our defense budget can stand a substantial cut, don't believe the right scare tactics.

When your job is possibly on the line next time, we'll see where you stance shall be. History has proven otherwise.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 204): Even with a 20% cut our defense department will still be the best trained, best equipped military machine in the world!

Already operating 15+ year old machines, and you need to cut the budget even MORE? Eventually, our equipment will wear out, and we'll have nothing left, because chances are the 20% you are saying will be cut from development projects, and the rest of the money will have to be pooled to keep old equipment operational. Development division will be the hardest hit here.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 204): Now, it should be interesting to point out that under the Republican controlled Congress the Air Force was actually forced to cut down its personnel, something they called "Force Shaping".

Source please.

Quoting AirportSeven (Reply 205): Obama May Continue Defense Growth, Lifting Lockheed, Northrop

Hope its true, but again, history has said otherwise.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 212): I hope this s**t doesn't happen to you. But to blame it on Obama (he doesn't take over until Jan.20) is bizarre.

Should note I am not directly blaming him. However, now a fully controlled Democrat congress, do not be surprised to see many in the military or work for the military out of a job within the next 2 to 3 years. Then again, with McCain, its possible he would have cut the defense budget too, so either way I could be screwed.

It should be noted that while it may appear I hate Obama, I do not. I just strongly disagree with his views.

Quoting NA (Reply 213): What bugs me is the constant media message that the US has its first black president. He is as much black as he is white. The statement that he is black is somewhat racist in my opinion. He is the perfect expression of a multicultural society, much more than the white anglo-saxon men before him.

NA, ideally we would have had two Americans running for President; unfortunately, we are so obsessed with race, skin color, and labels that we make such a big deal about it. Make no mistake, we still have serious issues in this country with racism and discrimination. The recent crackdown on illegal immigrants actually surfaced a culture clash in many parts of the country. And to be honest the biggest problem is that we do not allow a proper dialogue to take place. We need to come together and get rid of the labels, and simply have legal statuses describe us (U.S. citizen, legal resident, legal alien, illegal immigrant, etc). Beyond that, NO ONE should care one iota whether somebody else is white, black, hispanic, asian, native, mixed, gay, straight, woman, man, etc.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 216): Because he hates free enterprise and people that make a lot of money.

Of all the lowest common denominator (read: stupid) partisan commentary on this site...we have a new winner. That's why exit polling indicates he did rather well among people making over $250,000 and those with postgraduate education nationwide.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 216): We had it, a place where you can make your fortune through hard work but now you will have to give some of it to the people who want to sit on the couch all day.

Hard work...like playing golf? Maybe your history books didn't mention it, but we've had progressive taxes for the last ten+ administrations.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 216): We have an administration that will do nothing militarily simply to appease the anti-war groups and we are a lot less safer than yesterday as a result.

And your extensive military and anti-terrorism experience that qualifies you to make this statement is....?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 216): I would def avoid NYC for a long while.

Now who's kowtowing to the terrorists...look at that folks. They hate our freedom, so he's restricting his own travel movements. Brilliant.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 222): Of all the lowest common denominator (read: stupid) partisan commentary on this site...we have a new winner. That's why exit polling indicates he did rather well among people making over $250,000 and those with postgraduate education nationwide

Oh yea I noticed all the people cheering for him last night made over a 250,000 a year.   . Trust me pal the people that put him over the top are not making that much. Not even close. It was the ones that think he is going to give them free education and health care.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 222): Hard work...like playing golf?

Ahh the personal attacks. So typical.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 222): And your extensive military and anti-terrorism experience that qualifies you to make this statement is....?

Don't need any to see the relationship between the DNC and codepink or moveon.org. Unless you don't want to see it.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 96): I actually thought McCain gave a great speech congratulating Obama he even told the crowd to calm down, he even gave credit to Obama during the race on occasion doespite the differences. Regardless of what party you are it says a lot about a persons character.

I agree wholeheartedly. McCain's speech hit exactly the right note. I feel bad for the guy. Had McCain been the candidate eight years ago, the world would be a much different place, and the Republican Party would likely be in much better shape than it is today.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 140): Quoting 767Lover (Reply 73): Knock it off, you sound arrogant. Got that right. I've got words for anyone who's going to stand around and bloviate in gloating manner about the intellectual fortitude of anyone who didn't vote for Obama. I didn't vote for Obama either, and consider myself, my friends, and millions of other independent voters slightly less than dumb. In other words: shut up.

I think you're both misreading what I said. I wasn't impugning the intellects of all people who voted for McCain. In fact, it's quite a stretch to turn that quote into that meaning. Hell, I might even BE one of those intellectuals who voted for McCain. I'm certainly no Democrat. What I was reacting to was the persistent attitude I have seen embodied in some of the supporters of Bush and Palin that multiple academic degrees and the ability to form cogent, well-reasoned arguments is somehow suspect. There are literally dozens of people I know who are both much more intelligent than myself and solid McCain voters. Unfortunately, I sense that relative to the present GOP voting bloc as a whole, this slice is relatively small. Perhaps more than any other present political phenomenon, the rise of this anti-intellectual tide bothers me greatly. While I see some of the reasons for it (yes, there are too many academics who sit in their big chairs and pontificate about how everyone else should do things in a certain field without ever having done much of anything themselves in it - law professors in particular), reaction against Obama as a group-based affective judgment tied to dislike of people like Samantha Power seems a bit much to me.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 165): It's impossible for people outside of an industry, with little working knowledge or experience of it, to anticipate, much less safeguard, all possible 'emergency' scenarios that may or may not come to pass. The SEC and other institutions are tasked with monitoring and oversight of regular activities to a sufficient degree - individual regulations may certainly be lacking, but until lobbying is banned outright, that will never be fully rectified. So, ostensibly, that only leaves us with what officials will do within the bounds of their power when confronted with something that looks like wrongdoing.

Well, there's two sides to this coin. I think one of the biggest problems isn't that outsiders do the regulation. It's actually quite the opposite. There is no better qualification to do securities law work in DC than having been an SEC regulator, and it's incredibly common career path for folks to work at law firms for a year or two, then head to the SEC (or whichever body regulates whichever field they're in), and then head back, all as a planned path. There are therefore substantial incentives to use the experience at the regulatory agency to find loopholes to help future clients, and additionally to preserve said regulatory structures rather than fixing them. Either way, the result comes out the same way as you had called it, and as for the rest of your comment, spot on.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 172): Palin not only has experience as governor but has been a good manager who doesn't even fit the republican stereotype: Put the people first and the oil companies second. That's what should matter. One would imagine she would have gotten praise by the media, instead it was all about the Tina Fey mockery and then how much her dress cost...

I never saw the Tina Fey mockery and don't give a crap about her dress (I think it's sad that such things even mattered at all). I couldn't care less what the woman looks like, and I do think her challenging the oil companies took some guts. That said, I could never figure out exactly what was the basis for any of her opinions; everything she said seemed to be jingoistic, rather than resting on any specific facts, and I was getting awfully tired of her frequent invocations of religion.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 214): Our energy problems won't get better, our healthcare system won't change,

Here I disagree. I think that indeed he will take action in these tow fields. The energy problem of the US is mostly due to the waste, waste, waste policy of recent times. The average German uses, how much?, a quarter or one third of energy of the average US citizen. That can´t be too difficult to achieve. The country is so big and partly emty that literally thousands of solar and wind energy powerplants could be built. Oil is not everything.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 216): Because he hates free enterprise and people that make a lot of money. He wants to tax them to death to give to the lazy people that don't like to work and cry they have nothing.

What a naive statemment. What is wrong about raising the tax for people who earn millions in a single year? Ok, these people won´t be able to pay the second gardener in their 3rd house anymore. But is that bad in the light of millions of impoverished? Someone who earns 5 millions in a year can pay 50% tax and he´ll stay rich.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 110): I'm not surprised that you'd rather avoid assigning responsibility where it obviously belongs.

You still don't get it. I'm was not talking about political policy, I was and am talking about Americans as citizens. What the citizens have done is told their political leaders that they no longer want to strive for and attain personal liberty and pursue happiness based on their own drive but that they are willing to sit back and allow the government to assign liberty and happiness as the government best sees fit. That will not happen immediately nor in 4 years but what was concieved back in the 1930's with the new deal, born in the 1960's with the great society, has now reached adolesence in the 2000's. How quickly it will reach maturity will depend on how fast the people decide they want to bankrupt the nation.

BTW, the housing meltdown actually has its roots in the Carter administration with the Community Reinvestment Act and was further driven on by the changes made to the CRA in 1995 and further regulatory changes made in 1999 and again in 2005 when thrifts meeting certain asset availabilities were allowed into the CRA group of lenders. It has very little to do with Reaganomics and regulation. The lenders were, for the most part, following the guidelines laid down by the government. That is one of the reasons there has been no rush to have hearings into what went wrong. Elected officials don't want a bad light shown on them and several that are in charge now in Congress would be blinded by that light in a large way.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 111): As part of the 3% or so of Black Americans who voted for McCain, I am certainly NOT excited about That One.

      I would buy all the drinks and even dinner to see the argument between you and Superfly. Heck, if the measure passed to allow legal prostitution in SFO I'd pay for Superfly's hooker as well.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 124): Taxes should be as low as possible. But in a deep crisis the lowest possible level can still need a raise, unfortunately.

Yeah, we wouldn't want to talk about cutting anything, not when it is so easy to just raise taxes. Of course that's what the average Joe does, just goes into the bosses office and says "I don't feel like giving anything up so you're going to pay me more starting now".

Quoting Klaus (Reply 124): At some time even for the rowdiest party somebody has to pick up the tab, but some people have apparently deluded themselves into the idea that it was actually a free-for-all.

And it continues for the next four years at least.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 128): But I'd say the transition to an Obama administration and his policies might still provide sufficient friction with at least the american right-wingers to keep things going...

Nope, it's out of control, time to pull the firefighters, stand back and just let it burn. Shame we the taxpayers will have to wait at least 4 years for the insurance settlement.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 134): Meet the new boss Same as the old boss

When it comes to spending you got that one right.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 150): You keep saying this: specifics, please. Like direct quotes.

To Joe the plumber....It not that I want to punish your success(even though he is). I just want to make sure that everybody behind you has a chance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA

And what some people expect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI

"I don't have to worry about buying gas, I don't have to worry about paying my mortgage, Obama is going to help me do that."

Of course they are going to be sorely disappointed and in that President Elect Obama has sown some seeds of discontent.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 37): A couple of thoughts: 1. McCain is pure class. He's a statesman, a hero, and a patriot, and the type of man who just doesn't come around in great supply. Arizona is lucky to have had his representation. 2. The U.S. Presidential election cycle is just plain cool no matter who wins. In January, we will witness the 44th peaceful transfer of power in accordance with the will of our populace as we have done for the last 220 years. No other power on Earth has that kind of tradition. 3. I'm personally disappointed at the outcome, but it's obvious the U.S. political tone has shifted to the left in the last 2-4 years. I can only hope that Obama's administration acts rationally in confronting the problems that lie ahead of us.

Perfectly put, and sums up my feelings exactly. Thank you for saving me the need to read through the entire thread!  

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 47): The election is over. It's time to stop being focused on being a Republican or Democrat and to return our focus on simply being Americans.

Yes, because that worked so well the last 8 years.  

From the moment Bush was elected in 2000, the left has been against "unity". Do you really think that, in electing what is probably going to be our most left-leaning president ever, we're going to suddenly see change?

I really wonder what people are thinking? The greatest thing that Obama can do is continue speaking eloquently and inspiringly, which we certainly have lacked since Clinton left office. But that doesn't change how people actually feel about things like taxes, abortion, spending, military, health care, etc etc etc. Once he is in office, and there is only him and not an opponent to spar with, it will be a different story.

I personally believe we needed a president that would be more moderate/centrist. I'm not sure what another 4 years of division are going to bring, but we're about to find out.

-Dave

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 216): Because he hates free enterprise and people that make a lot of money. He wants to tax them to death to give to the lazy people that don't like to work and cry they have nothing.

Oh come on ... it's Obama, not Stalin

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 216): Freedom was lost last night.

yeah right, as opposed to 8 years of no phone tapping, of anything is ok as long as its in the name of national security, of civil rights being torn apart because maybe everyone is a terrorist?
I thought it was only in the photography forum that I disagreed with you but I see it's everywhere.
And btw, I'm neither a commie nor a socialist, on the contrary, but I am someone that is smart enough to see when a change is needed.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 223): Trust me pal the people that put him over the top are not making that much. Not even close. It was the ones that think he is going to give them free education and health care.

The polling data doesn't agree with you at all, and neither do a lot of Republican strategists who were surprised he did as well as he did with that demographic.

Anecdotally, I heard virtually the entire law firm I used to work for back in college donated to Obama's campaign. They're an old guard insurance defense firm in San Francisco with profits per partner over $400K per annum. Not exactly blue territory in the halls of that office, but I'm sure it was out and out revolt against Bush, his legacy, anyone associated with him and little else.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 223): Ahh the personal attacks. So typical.

Not much more to go on with the overt lack of substance in your posts. See, there's complaining about the virtues of hard work...and then there's actually working hard.

Quoting Oa260 (Reply 193): Not true. Why not put Mickey Mouse there then?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 229): Anecdotally, I heard virtually the entire law firm I used to work for back in college donated to Obama's campaign. They're an old guard insurance defense firm in San Francisco with profits per partner over $400K per annum. Not exactly blue territory in the halls of that office, but I'm sure it was out and out revolt against Bush, his legacy, anyone associated with him and little else.

Sounds like blue territory to me. SFO legal firm involved in insurance litigation? Which side of the litigation doesn't matter, as long as lots of suits are filed. Obama's election should be very good for their business.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 226): Quoting Klaus (Reply 110): I'm not surprised that you'd rather avoid assigning responsibility where it obviously belongs. You still don't get it. I'm was not talking about political policy, I was and am talking about Americans as citizens. What the citizens have done is told their political leaders that they no longer want to strive for and attain personal liberty and pursue happiness based on their own drive but that they are willing to sit back and allow the government to assign liberty and happiness as the government best sees fit. That will not happen immediately nor in 4 years but what was concieved back in the 1930's with the new deal, born in the 1960's with the great society, has now reached adolesence in the 2000's. How quickly it will reach maturity will depend on how fast the people decide they want to bankrupt the nation.

Sorry I usually do try to rebut point by point but that is so ridiculous it hardly bears bothering about. Of course that is not what the electorate said or expects. It does expect its government to function a tad more effectively than has been the case for a while. Stand by for the odd surprise.

Also I hope this democratic congress with President Elect Obama does not end the patriot act because guess what it WORKS. I don’t care if the FBI is listening to my phone calls I have nothing to hide. Also please consider Nuclear Power and drilling a bit off the coast. We need the economic boost and the Nuclear power is so nice and clean! If France does it I am sure the US can figure out how to make some new plants.  

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 125): Out of all things possible that's all you care about, guns?. What ever happened to getting a dog, learning martial arts or something... A society where everybody is armed is frankly scary to live in and does more harm than good. Ideally, only the police should be carrying guns, maybe...

Well I did say some other issues, I am a very moderate republican I think some things President Elect Obama does while he is in office will be great, I hope for gay marriage and less war, not a cut in funding of defense but less fighting would be nice. But yea I think the second amendment is pretty important, I do think its too easy to buy a gun in the US but I would never want this right restricted which I dont believe it ever will be. Police cant be there all the time, the bad guys will always find a way to get a gun. The more lawful good citizens who have some type of way to protect themselves the less crime there will be. I agree with better gun control but I also agree with right to carry and right to have in your home and car as long as you have a crystal clear criminal record.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 149): 8 years of Bush hurt everyone, including his Party and its candidate. I can't imagine how many people voted for Obama as a way of being against Bush's "continuation". Maybe, probably IMO, Obama would have won anyway, but this certainly made things easier for him

I think if Bust was a half way decent president this would have been an easy victory for John McCain do to the little experience President Elect Obama has. But the country was desperate for change and it has spoken. Now when the same problems occur with a democratic congress we might just see another change in power who knows. Lets all just hope for the best.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 170): military budgets get cut,

This is something which I hope does not happen, we just cant afford this as of now, maybe if things calm down but for now I cant see this happening.

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Reply 24): It blows my mind the we just elected a man that would have a hard time passing the background check to become a FBI or CIA agent. I hope my fears of what his vision of America should be are unfounded.

This is true, he would have some problems with since he lived abroad for a period of time, his association with known terrorist etc.. But I think he still could have been granted top secret clearance if he did ever apply for a job like that.
PS: There is no such thing as a special agent in the CIA.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 229): The polling data doesn't agree with you at all,

Oh yea exit polls are so accurate.   

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 229): See, there's complaining about the virtues of hard work...and then there's actually working hard.

I guess you know how many hours I put in a week? My line of work entails much more than just playing golf. Then again how would you know this behind that desk of yours?

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 228): Oh come on ... it's Obama, not Stalin

Time will tell.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 227): From the moment Bush was elected in 2000, the left has been against "unity". Do you really think that, in electing what is probably going to be our most left-leaning president ever, we're going to suddenly see change?

They do, it will be interesting to hear the excuses when none of his plans come to pass.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 227): I really wonder what people are thinking? The greatest thing that Obama can do is continue speaking eloquently and inspiringly, which we certainly have lacked since Clinton left office. But that doesn't change how people actually feel about things like taxes, abortion, spending, military, health care, etc etc etc. Once he is in office, and there is only him and not an opponent to spar with, it will be a different story

Well that is what happens when you vote for an idealogy.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 227): I personally believe we needed a president that would be more moderate/centrist. I'm not sure what another 4 years of division are going to bring, but we're about to find out

Yep we will.

Fantastic!

Barack Obama is eliquent, young and in-tune with politics.
What a day for the world!
Stock up on the local newspapers and keep them somewhere safe!!

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 233): Well that is what happens when you vote for an idealogy.

No it is what happens when you vote for an ideologue:
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ideologue.htm
The most common variants of Ideologue are conservative and liberal. Smug and self satisfied in their certitudes, Ideologue's opinions are merely a loose collection of intellectual conceits, and he is genuinely astonished, bewildered and and indignant that his views are not universally embraced as the Truth. He regards the opposing point of view as a form of cognitive dissonance whose only cure is relentless propagandizing and browbeating. The conservative iteration of Ideologue parades himself as a logical, clear thinker, while the liberal version trumpets his higher level of mental, spiritual and social awareness.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 226): You still don't get it. I'm was not talking about political policy, I was and am talking about Americans as citizens. What the citizens have done is told their political leaders that they no longer want to strive for and attain personal liberty and pursue happiness based on their own drive but that they are willing to sit back and allow the government to assign liberty and happiness as the government best sees fit.

Generic cardboard cutout propaganda with no relationship to my points.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 226): Quoting Klaus (Reply 124): Taxes should be as low as possible. But in a deep crisis the lowest possible level can still need a raise, unfortunately. Yeah, we wouldn't want to talk about cutting anything, not when it is so easy to just raise taxes. Of course that's what the average Joe does, just goes into the bosses office and says "I don't feel like giving anything up so you're going to pay me more starting now".

You don't get something for nothing. I'm sorry to bust your illusions there.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 226): Quoting Klaus (Reply 128): But I'd say the transition to an Obama administration and his policies might still provide sufficient friction with at least the american right-wingers to keep things going... Nope, it's out of control, time to pull the firefighters, stand back and just let it burn. Shame we the taxpayers will have to wait at least 4 years for the insurance settlement.

Okay. So you are the guy who warms his hands at the house on fire while the rest of us are trying to salvage as much as possible and to rescue the inhabitants.

But we're probably just sentimental idiots. Never mind. The sentimental idiots now are in charge after the cynical ones have set the house on fire in the first place.

At least I am quite certain about which group of people I'd rather be a part of.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 223): Not even close. It was the ones that think he is going to give them free education and health care. Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 222): Hard work...like playing golf? Ahh the personal attacks. So typical.

Its you who is accusing others, just one sentence before you attack someone else of what you do yourself. You seem to be full of prejudices. Its as much true that millionaires get their money while playing Golf as is that the poor are poor because they are lazy. Most of the poor are poor because they have no chance.
All the young, the welleducated I saw at Obamas party. In Phoenix there were idiots crying Obama is a communist or other rubbish, or rednecks with Stetsons, people of yesterday.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 233): I guess you know how many hours I put in a week? My line of work entails much more than just playing golf. Then again how would you know this behind that desk of yours?

My line of work doesn't involve any kind of 'playing' - just number-crunching, interviews with local executives, and several months at a time working on consulting projects that often shift 180 degrees in a week's time and require considerable expense on my part to keep up with the changes. All this to fund a return to flight school at that. The kicker is my father's been making more than $250K since I was in primary school, but aside from two years doing high school in Hong Kong in the mid-90s, I've never been the recipient of handouts. So it sticks in my craw just a little when ideologues go bleating on about this or that when it's not readily apparent they know the first thing about it.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 233): Time will tell.

Yeah, he's planning on opening concentration camps in Alaska ... come on, you can't be serious.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 233): Well that is what happens when you vote for an idealogy.

Which would be what exactly?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 233): Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 228): Oh come on ... it's Obama, not Stalin Time will tell.

Ok, The shelf-life of the Right's shrill, corrosive, jingoistic, hare-brained, hateful, and sophomoric rhetoric -- exemplified by the post above -- permanently expired at 0400 Zulu on 5 November 2008.

I hope the Republicans see the proverbial writing on the wall and chisel the following in their "lessons learned" file: "Going thermo-nucular (sic) on your opponent with backwater, hick-spawned rhetoric that appeals to the ugliest, basest instincts of human nature no longer works."

As late as the morning of 4 November, that Right-wing yenta on "The View" was screeching about Ayers, and McCain went for broke by seeking to link President-Elect Obama to Fidel Castro...a pathetic gesture if there ever was one.

Game Over. Obama 1 -- Helms, Wallace, Atwater, Hannity 0.

And throughout the campaign, Sarah Palin engaged in the very nasty practice of seeking to lump the next president into a group of people who somehow are not "real Americans" because of what they believe -- demonstrating beyond a shadow of a doubt that anti-intellectualism is alive and well.

So I guess a guy who thinks that an Obama presidency is the death knell for Israel is a real American?

Let's face it, the Right knew that it couldn't (publicly) use the N-word, so they went for code words like "socialist", "communist", and "Marxist".

It's no coincidence, by the way, that Palin was vetoed from speaking after McCain's concession. In effect, the McCain camp concluded -- a day late and a dollar short -- that she was a loose cannon; oh, and some more clothing bills from Saks and Neiman Marcus are still coming in...

As for Joe the Plumber, look for him to take up the square left vacant by the late Charles Nelson-Reilly.

Quoting Derico (Reply 122): I think was has been confirmed is that Europe is more progressive than the United States in social constructs, but the US is far more dynamic in ethnic ones.

I that's a bit unfair, in the UK, we've only had numbers of people of African/Caribbean descent for 60 years, in much smaller numbers too, here they make up less than 2% of the population.
And they've always had the right to vote.

So we are not comparing like for like, for all that though, Obama's election is a massive and positive affirmation of the US.
Martin Luther King's dream has been realised.

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 240): Game Over. Obama 1 -- Helms, Wallace, Atwater, Hannity 0.

Not necessarily Wallace, Santosdumont. Interesting opinion piece by his daughter.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/...3/wallace.kennedy.obama/index.html

He's not my president and I'll never give him the respect that the title of the office deserves, he doesn't deserve it.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 243): He's not my president and I'll never give him the respect that the title of the office deserves, he doesn't deserve it.

Well, you're free to pass judgment about yourself that way if you absolutely must...   

Sad for you, largely meaningless for Obama and the world.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 243): He's not my president and I'll never give him the respect that the title of the office deserves, he doesn't deserve it.

You must be talking of Bush. I fully agree with you then, thank god that fool is (bad) history now.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 231): Stand by for the odd surprise.

Oh I'll standby but I don't expect any real surprises. What will suprise me is how long people will allow this ship to take on water until they decide it's time to plug the holes which are only getting larger every year.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 236): Generic cardboard cutout propaganda with no relationship to my points.

Granted. Unfortunately your points have nothing to do with my original statement. I've tried to get you to understand what I'm refering too but you either choose to ignore or just don't understand since you are not an American citizen and I mean that in a polite way since I have no idea what is to be born and raised a German citizen.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 236): You don't get something for nothing. I'm sorry to bust your illusions there.

We should be looking to offload somethings, not take more on. What part of that don't you quite get? Let's try this. If a business has too much inventory and it is not moving, what do they do? Do they increase the price of the inventory on hand while ordering more? That is just about where we are and it should be easy to see which way we are headed.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 243): He's not my president and I'll never give him the respect that the title of the office deserves, he doesn't deserve it.

I wish this kind of posting would stop. He is your President. He was fairly elected by the people. You may not agree with his principles and policies but you cannot deny the election was fair and as such he is the President Elect of the United States. He deserves the respect and courtesey the office commands.


BTW I see the stock market is overjoyed today. As of now it's down $296.

Even baseball player reps are wising up that it's time to wind up negotiation.

http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/p...e?AID=/20081105/SPORTS06/811050357

Looking ahead to an Obama administration, some baseball agents already are thinking about trying to beat a possible tax increase for their well-paid clients.

President-elect Barack Obama has proposed increasing the top federal income tax rate from 35 percent to 39.6 percent, where it was under the Clinton administration. If signing bonuses are paid before Jan. 1, they likely would be taxed at the current rate and would not be subject to any tax increase.

I wonder if the price of the Miami Dolphins has been adjusted today?

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 243): He's not my president and I'll never give him the respect

He IS you president , the majority of your countries citizens have voted him in and by the defaults of democracy he IS the President of the United States and as you are an American he IS your president whether you like it or not.

Just a shame about your statement. It says more about you than it does about Obama.

Respect or lack of it goes both ways.

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 242): Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 240): Game Over. Obama 1 -- Helms, Wallace, Atwater, Hannity 0. Not necessarily Wallace, Santosdumont. Interesting opinion piece by his daughter. http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/....html

Yeah, I thought about that after I posted...maybe I should have replaced Wallace with Lott 

Quoting Klaus (Reply 236): Okay. So you are the guy who warms his hands at the house on fire while the rest of us are trying to salvage as much as possible and to rescue the inhabitants. But we're probably just sentimental idiots. Never mind. The sentimental idiots now are in charge after the cynical ones have set the house on fire in the first place.

Unfortunately the people in charge now are going to take more fuel and toss it on top of the already out of control fire. As to setting the fire, I would remind you that the last time the United States had an actual budget surplus, not one on paper that discounts the effects of Social Security in the general fund, but an actual bonafide balanced budget that was in surplus was during the Johnson Administration the year before the Great Society programs kicked in. So you might want to revise just who started the fire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GAO_Slide.png