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Alias1024
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:22 am



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 149):
plus the legal benefits that is really what at issue here, right?

No. The legal benefits are a part, but the bigger issue for many is the recognition of their relationship. Many homosexuals attend church, and for them marriage is a religious ceremony that they are now being denied the rights to. As with many straight people, the ability to get codify their relationship in front of God is of great importance. This is what has been denied to homosexuals in California.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:23 am



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 86):

I'm for gay marriage, but I don't think using this case helps the issue any. The second half of that sentence "fundamental to our very existence and survival" couches marriage as a means to an end---

But if you follow that logic, then infertile people should not be allowed to marry, either.

Should we require fertility testing and mandate that all people who get married must have children within X time or their marriages will be forcibly anulled?

No. Marriage is about more than children. Marriage is about declaring that this other individual is now part of your family and that this individual will share in everything that is yours and vice-versa, and that this individual will make decisions for you if you cannot.

CA still has civil unions. I have never felt a need to get married other than that it's simpler than a civil union. But this issue is about more than marriage.

Loving v. Virginia is relevant because the arguments against interracial marriage were the EXACT same arguments used against same-sex marriage.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 136):
My thinking is that many people were confused on the wording of it.
There were some people that thought a 'yes' vote would legalize same-sex marriage.

I doubt that. I think calling it the "Eliminates the Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry Act" was pretty clear.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 144):


However just because I might accept peoples choices as to sexual partners, does not mean I have to accept government validating such choices.

Big problem: it's not a choice.

Do you honestly believe that I would CHOOSE to be gay? Why would I CHOOSE a lifestyle that exposes me to ignorance, violence, and hatred? Why would I, a pediatrician who loves each and every child he meets, a man who wants nothing more in life than to be a father and husband, CHOOSE to be gay?

In fact, I CHOSE to be straight. Until age 25, I dated women, I had sex with them, and I hated it; sex was like a chore. But I thought that if I just tried hard enough and ignored it enough that it would go away. It didn't and finally I decided to simply accept what I was.

So it's not a choice any more than race is. But I do know what IS a choice: religion. So why can't we discriminate on the basis of religion?

I found myself last night wishing that someone would bomb a few Mormon temples and then had to chastise myself for it. Violence is counter-productive and wrong. But I DO wish a few well-placed meteors or tornadoes would do the job.
 
travelin man
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:28 am



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 146):
I believe that marriage is a religious matter (you know, holy matrimony) and I don't think that
any religious institution allows for gay marriage.

Honestly it doesn't matter what you believe.

"Marriage" as currently sanctioned by the government (and performed at courthouses throughout the country) has NOTHING to do with religion. It is called a "civil ceremony" for a reason.

Either a) get government OUT of the marriage business, or b) allow gay marriage. By having government IN the marriage business AND denying marriage to a certain segment of the adult population, it is discrimination plain and simple.
 
PSA727
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:35 am



Quoting Travelin man (Reply 152):
ither a) get government OUT of the marriage business, or b) allow gay marriage. By having government IN the marriage business AND denying marriage to a certain segment of the adult population, it is discrimination plain and simple.

YES...the government needs to get out of the marriage business. They usurped it from
religion and need to give it back. The government is secular. Civil unions are secular.
 
iairallie
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:36 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 32):
Do you still call it marriage when a man and a woman marry expressly for the purpose of expediting a visa for cash or satisfying conditions of a small business tax sheltering arrangement? People marry for those reasons too - I don't see the LDS donating money have ballot initiatives brought against that.

Those things are already technically illegal. Stupid comparison.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 40):
Utah has among the highest rates of divorce, child abuse, sexual abuse, etc., etc. in the country


If you are going to make claims like this you better back it up with links and evidence.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 40):
I seriously cannot remember the last time I came across anything from a higher up in the LDS church that stated that one of those issues should be attacked

At the LDS General Conference last year the issue of child abuse and sexual abuse was addressed in no uncertain terms. The other issues you mention are regularly addressed within the LDS church as well. I was going to post links showing this but there were too many articles, talks, transcripts, and resources on those topics on LDS.org to pick from.

Quoting F9Widebody (Reply 43):
I can understand how people might feel entitled to the rights and privileges afforded to those who are married, and I believe that all people, regardless of sexual preference, are entitled to those rights

Agree 100%

Quoting AirCop (Reply 49):
Same here, what is worse is that the signs were passed out at the ward, after services..

Doubt this very much. I saw nothing of the sort at any of my church meetings nor have I even heard rumors of this. Proof?

Quoting AirCop (Reply 49):
Sexual abuse runs rampant through the LDS church here in Arizona, nearly 30% of all registered sex offenders in the Grand Canyon State are Mormons and the number of offenders are even higher since the "church" tries to take care of it "in house".

Again if you are going to make claims like that you need to back it up with evidence and links.

re: taking care of it in house... per LDS.org "Part of the repentance process may also include accepting whatever penalties are imposed by law. " For things that are illegal one cannot repent unless they accept responsibility for their actions that includes legal penalties. A huge part of the faith is being accountable for ones actions and choices. Covering something up would do nothing to help the guilty party properly repent.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:48 am



Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 150):
No. The legal benefits are a part, but the bigger issue for many is the recognition of their relationship. Many homosexuals attend church, and for them marriage is a religious ceremony that they are now being denied the rights to. As with many straight people, the ability to get codify their relationship in front of God is of great importance. This is what has been denied to homosexuals in California.

Frankly, if that's what people are after, then they should be going after churches, not the government.

While acceptance is obviously important, equal recognition in the eyes of the law is even more important. Opposing Prop 8 doesn't mean that you want the government to force churches to marry gay folks - that's not the government's business. It's about having the equal opportunity (in the eyes of the law) to marry someone whom you love.

You're never going to get everyone to accept something - it just won't happen. But creating a separate but equal situation (civil unions) isn't the answer either.
 
Alias1024
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:48 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 154):
If you are going to make claims like this you better back it up with links and evidence.

Agreed, there has been some terribly inaccurate and in some cases hateful speech made toward the LDS Church and its members on this thread. If it doesn't stop I'm sure the mods will step in soon.
 
iairallie
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:04 am



Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 150):
Many homosexuals attend church, and for them marriage is a religious ceremony that they are now being denied the rights to. As with many straight people, the ability to get codify their relationship in front of God is of great importance

They aren't being denied the ability to codify their relationship in front of God. You can be married/joined in union by a religious leader it just isn't legally binding.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 151):

I found myself last night wishing that someone would bomb a few Mormon temples and then had to chastise myself for it. Violence is counter-productive and wrong. But I DO wish a few well-placed meteors or tornadoes would do the job.

That's a disgusting thing to wish. I am disapointed in you.

We don't hate you. We feel no malice towards people with same gender attractions. There are many gay people in my life whom I love dearly.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 88):
Polygamy and other variations are not viable in the discussion because they don't involve two consenting adults. It's always the same tired fallacies time and again.

Polygamy involves consenting adults. The comparison is valid.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 79):
nor the fact that conservatives are on record in opposition to stripping people of their rights in the state of California

It's very interesting that I keep hearing the how this is the fault of the conservatives. It passed in California. There had to be an awful lot of liberals voting for it because conservatives are the minority in California.
 
Alias1024
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:21 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 157):
They aren't being denied the ability to codify their relationship in front of God. You can be married/joined in union by a religious leader it just isn't legally binding.

The legal recognition of marriages performed by some churches, while calling invalid the marriages performed by other churches would seem to be a governmental approval of some religious views over others. Would that not be a violation of the US Constitution?
 
RJdxer
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:27 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 142):
I think your argument does not hold ground.

When you can show the science of how to same gender people can produce an offspring using only themselves as donators then your argument will hold ground.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 143):
Defining marriage solely on the ability to procreate seems quite arbitrary.

And only a fool would say that marriage is defined soley on procreation. It is however part of the mix that makes marriage what it is and for that to occur you need a man and woman.

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 145):
Which one of a couple that adopts a child produced the egg? Which produced the sperm?

Irelevant as is the argument about a man who has lost his testicles or a woman that has lost her ovaries. The percentage of those kinds of hetrosexual couples would be minute versus the 100% chance that two same gender people cannot reproduce between themselves even if everything is working perfectly.

There is much more to marriage than procreation but procreation has been one of the driving forces behind marriage for eons. We've been round this circle before to. Redefining marriage to suit a small minority in this country is just wrong. There are plenty of legal remedies available to homosexual couples already so it is not discrimination either. We will continue to disagree on this I'm sure. I hold no ill will toward any homosexual member of our community but neither do I wish to see one of the oldest traditions in western civilization upended just to make a small minority "feel good". Life is unfair, everyone gets dealt some cards that they don't want, need, or care for. Anyone who told you or promised you differently lied to your face.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:31 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 154):
Those things are already technically illegal. Stupid comparison.

As previously pointed out, while they may be illegal, they are quite commonplace. Where's the outrage? Where's the funding drive? Where's the ballot initiatives to require background checks and verification that married people are indeed, doing what they stated when they applied?

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 152):
Either a) get government OUT of the marriage business, or b) allow gay marriage. By having government IN the marriage business AND denying marriage to a certain segment of the adult population, it is discrimination plain and simple.

When option A happens, I'll shut up about this. But given the large entanglements between compensation, benefits, medical rights and taxation with regard to government's longstanding affiliation with marriage, it's very hard to see A happening anytime soon.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:45 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 154):
Quoting OA412 (Reply 40):
Utah has among the highest rates of divorce, child abuse, sexual abuse, etc., etc. in the country


If you are going to make claims like this you better back it up with links and evidence.

I agree. A quick check on google, I find Nevada to win this catagory at 7.1 per 1000. California is # 19 (4.3) , and Utah is # 23 (4.1).
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/lif_div_rat-lifestyle-divorce-rate

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 154):
Quoting AirCop (Reply 49):
Sexual abuse runs rampant through the LDS church here in Arizona, nearly 30% of all registered sex offenders in the Grand Canyon State are Mormons and the number of offenders are even higher since the "church" tries to take care of it "in house".

Again if you are going to make claims like that you need to back it up with evidence and links.

I think I can help out AirCop, too. Most sex abusers, child abusers and registered sexual offenders fall into several catagories per each person. For example, one may be a Mormon, but that same person may also be gay, blond, a motorcycle rider, a former boy scout, and several other factors. So, the 30% being Mormon is meaningless. I wonder how many sexual offenders in Arizona are former cops?

back to the topic.californians have a right to decide if they want to pass Prop 8, or not. The voters have spoken. Simply because you or I may or may not agree with the decision, we do have to live with it.
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:59 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 159):
When you can show the science of how to same gender people can produce an offspring using only themselves as donators then your argument will hold ground.

My argument holds ground, and some posters have stated similar positions. Why would you not bar infertile couples from getting married? After all, "science" prevents them from procreating, right? What is the obsession with the "same sex" aspect of it?

 Smile
 
iairallie
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:08 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 160):
Where's the ballot initiatives to require background checks and verification that married people are indeed, doing what they stated when they applied?



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 160):
Where's the outrage?

I find those behaviors repugnant. I am outraged by people attempting to skirt the law. However there is no need for ballot initiatives as laws already exist. It would be redundant. There are background checks and verification already. It is a difficult thing though to prove a fake marriage and the law is limited to prosecuting what they can prove.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 161):
and Utah is # 23 (4.1).

Putting Utah squarely in the divorce rate middle.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:33 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 162):
My argument holds ground, and some posters have stated similar positions. Why would you not bar infertile couples from getting married? After all, "science" prevents them from procreating, right?

That is about the stupidest think I have ever read on any a.net board. Infertile couples cannot repoduce because of some medical condition with either the man or the woman, or both. These couples may, or may not know of their medical condition before marrage. Every gay couple who wants to get married already knows they will never be able to repoduce a baby together.

The funny thing here is the gay agenda wants "normal acceptance" from all of socity, but when socity rejects them, they go "straight" (pun accepted) to court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_agenda
 
ual777
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:04 am



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 153):

YES...the government needs to get out of the marriage business. They usurped it from
religion and need to give it back. The government is secular. Civil unions are secular.

I agree.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:12 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 157):

We don't hate you. We feel no malice towards people with same gender attractions. There are many gay people in my life whom I love dearly.

Really? Do you regularly hurt people who you "love"?

I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. I got hurt yesterday. A lot of us got hurt. And YOU DID IT TO US.

When you hurt someone, it is an act of hate. Religious people have tortured and killed out of "love." Do you know what the phrase "words without works" means? Reflect on it.

We weren't hurting you. We weren't affecting you in any way. But you reached out and did this. That's hate. That is pure, unbridled hate. Call it what you will, but it's hate.

I hate organized religion. And this is why. And maybe a well-placed meteor might register God's opinion on the issue.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 164):

The funny thing here is the gay agenda wants "normal acceptance" from all of socity, but when socity rejects them, they go "straight" (pun accepted) to court.

Yup. Just like women, blacks, and other minorities have had to do to protect their rights.

The hypocracy is stunning. The same so-called "Conservatives" who want smaller government are using that same government to do stuff like this.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 161):
So, the 30% being Mormon is meaningless.

Not necessarily. In fact, it might be meaningful. You would expect that sex offenders would occur at an equal frequency in all segments of the population if it were a random phenomenon. If a given group is overrepresented in this group, then that indicates that a given group is more likely than the general population to commit sex offenses. If 30% of the state were Mormon then it would be meaningless. But I don't think 30% of Arizona is Mormon.
 
miamix707
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:49 am



Quoting Diamond (Reply 3):
This isn't just a California issue. Every similar ballot measure in other states had the same result.

I'd just like to ask: what does this tell us?

The people have spoken. They just voted for Obama, and now they voted against gay marriage, overwhelmingly. Furthermore, the term "gay marriage" is a travesty in itself

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 77):
If we should accept a same sex marriages, then we should also suppose accept polygamy, arranged forced marriages, group marriages, henogamy, child marriage, human-animal and other historical or religious variations and make them legal also no?

Exactly, where will it stop?

This problem for gays is most people don't see them as a "minority" with disadvantages that merit a special consideration. In my opinion the Yes to prop. 8 means most Americans see gay is a lifestyle for which everyone else now has to make special laws to accommodate a sexual preference.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 166):
I hate organized religion

I don't understand the hate and bitterness for the will of the majority. It's called a democracy, and with such an that attitude, don't expect much sympathy for your agenda either.

Also, if people choose to name the homosexual lifestyle "gay", shouldn't they just be happy??

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 146):
Well California is also my home state, I'm Catholic, and I'm gay and I would have voted Yes.
I believe that marriage is a religious matter (you know, holy matrimony) and I don't think that
any religious institution allows for gay marriage. I also believe that the government should
be issuing civil unions, not marriages, regardless of sexual orientation, because the state
is secular. Now if they want to have a ballot measure to allow gay civil unions, then I would
vote for it, as i think the majority Californians would also.

finally, someone with a sensible view

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 108):

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 107):
try hiding black.

and that looks like a McCain Halloween mask!
 
PSA727
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:55 am

When you make comments like this...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 166):
I hate organized religion. And this is why. And maybe a well-placed meteor might register God's opinion on the issue.

It makes statements like this seem stupid....

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 166):
We weren't hurting you. We weren't affecting you in any way. But you reached out and did this. That's hate. That is pure, unbridled hate. Call it what you will, but it's hate.

Here's a history lesson: The State took the concept of marriage from religion, not the other
way around. Marriage for centuries has been a religious ceremony. Then not so long ago,
the state began performing marriages when they should have been called civil unions instead.
So maybe this is religion's way of getting marriage back.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:59 am



Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 167):

The people have spoken. They just voted for Obama, and now they voted against gay marriage, overwhelmingly.

Doesn't matter. The Framers made it clear that there are some things that should never be left up to a majority vote to avoid a "tyrrany of the majority." Civil rights are one of those things.

Women didn't get the right to vote by majority vote. Nor did African-Americans. Interracial marriage wasn't legalized by popular vote.

In fact, never in history has a minority group been granted equal rights by popular vote.

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 168):
Then not so long ago,
the state began performing marriages when they should have been called civil unions instead.
So maybe this is religion's way of getting marriage back.

That's fine with me; as soon as those same churches now pass ballots to ban all marriage as a legal entity.

And that won't happen.

And if someone ripped your family apart for no reason, would you hate them? If someone arbitrarily decreed that you could never marry, would you hate them? I have trouble believing that you wouldn't.
 
iairallie
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:06 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 166):
YOU DID IT TO US.

I did nothing to you I don't live in California. And I don't hate you or any other gay person.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 166):
When you hurt someone, it is an act of hate

I disagree. There are lots of examples of how this statement is incorrect.

You are a doctor, some medical treatments hurt but administering them is an act of love not hate.

Some people are hurt incidentally through the selfish behavior of others. The selfish person was most likely indifferent not hateful to the person(s) hurt by their action.

Parents at some point must let their children make choices and mistakes that will hurt.

In some cases one must choose beween protecting their family and hurting another person.
 
PSA727
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:10 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 169):
And if someone ripped your family apart for no reason, would you hate them? If someone arbitrarily decreed that you could never marry, would you hate them? I have trouble believing that you wouldn't.

Somehow I think that for people who would react that way, marriage is not the biggest of
their problems that they need to address. It goes deeper than that. Many straight couples
who are living together aren't even married, so it can be done. This is actually becoming
quite a common practice in Western Europe as well as in the States.

BTW, many countries that allow the legal homosexual partnership call them civil unions.
 
travelin man
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:11 am

It is interesting that all the people saying "yay, the gays can't get married" have probably NEVER had a right taken away from them at the ballot box.

I guess it's easier when it's not YOUR rights.

So 18,000 couples who are married and love each other got put in limbo, possibly facing a government-sanctioned divorce.

Hooray for "family values"....
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:13 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 157):
There are many gay people in my life whom I love dearly.

Love them enough to want to enjoy the same benefits of marriage you do/would?

Maybe marriage should be just a religious ceremony, only acknowledged by their religion and no where else. With that comes no recognition from the government (local, state and federal) for purposes of tax breaks/benefits etc.. You don't get to file jointly, everyone files as a single person, tax laws get rewritten to reflect this, etc..

If this were to happen, there would be a huge uproar. God forbid you upset that apple cart.

However, the government does sanction marriages, civil and religious. If your religion choses not to perform or recognise a same sex marriage, fantastic. I, for one, don't need approval from that religion (or any religion) to justify my marriage. The state, however, should provide for all, not some or a select few, to be able to enjoy benefits extended to those who wish to marry, regardless of whom they do.

Same sex marriage only affects those who are getting married as a same sex couple. No one else. The fact that same sex marriage exists in other places and your (those opposed) marriage is still intact and strong shows that (unless you have a flawed relationship and then it is your undoing, not from a gay couple enjoying theirs).

I always find it interesting that 90% of people care that much about 10% of the rest wanting to get married, when those 90% screw marriage up in the first place (50% divorce rate).

Great role models.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:17 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 170):

You are a doctor, some medical treatments hurt but administering them is an act of love not hate.

I don't EVER intentionally harm a patient. I may do things that cause pain, but NEVER harm. I never intentionally harm ANYONE. Prop 8 harmed me. If you intentionally harm someone other than out of defense, that is an act of hate.

Was Prop 8 an accident? No. Was it an act of defense? No. Was it a decision made by children? No.

It was intentional harm.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 170):

I did nothing to you I don't live in California. And I don't hate you or any other gay person.

Are you Mormon? If you donate money to the LDS Church, then you donated to the campaign. So you personally, IAirAllie, helped do it to us. Everyone who donated to any organization that funded the pro-Prop 8 campaign personally did it to me. Some may not have done it knowingly, so I don't hold them against it. But if you knew that your church was supporting it and you continued to donate, then you personally helped the effort. And that was an act of hate.

If you did not donate to an organization that supported Prop 8, then accept my apologies.

For the record: I am an Eagle Scout. I have not donated a single cent to BSA since their decision barring gay Scoutmasters. BSA became a hateful organization on that day and I will not support it. I expect other people to hold themselves to the same ethical standard that I do:

DO NO HARM.
 
PSA727
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:17 am



Quoting Travelin man (Reply 172):
It is interesting that all the people saying "yay, the gays can't get married" have probably NEVER had a right taken away from them at the ballot box.

You mean like smoking in a restaurant?

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 172):
So 18,000 couples who are married and love each other got put in limbo, possibly facing a government-sanctioned divorce.

When this started back in June, they knew what the consequences would be. They were
taking a chance.
 
travelin man
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:17 am



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 173):
I always find it interesting that 90% of people care that much about 10% of the rest wanting to get married, when those 90% screw marriage up in the first place (50% divorce rate).

The only solace I have is that the young people (who overwhelmingly opposed Prop 8) are going to replace the old people who are for Prop 8. Time is on our side, it is just a matter of when....
 
iairallie
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:18 am



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 173):
Love them enough to want to enjoy the same benefits of marriage you do/would?

Yes, I want my gay loved ones to be able to enjoy the same BENEFITS of marriage that I have the option of enjoying. I oppose redefining marriage though.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 173):
Maybe marriage should be just a religious ceremony, only acknowledged by their religion and no where else. With that comes no recognition from the government (local, state and federal) for purposes of tax breaks/benefits etc.. You don't get to file jointly, everyone files as a single person, tax laws get rewritten to reflect this, etc..

I agree with this.
 
travelin man
Posts: 3272
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:19 am



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 175):
You mean like smoking in a restaurant?

Nice comparison. Unfortunately smoking affects the health of others. Gay marriage does not.

Try again.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:23 am



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 175):

You mean like smoking in a restaurant?

Please list the court case, law, or constitutional clause that defined smoking as a right.

As soon as you can produce it, I will lead the parade in demanding that smoking bans be repealed.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:28 am



Quoting N229NW (Reply 36):
That really sucks.

A bunch of bigots who have nothing better to do but spend time actively trying to ruin other peoples' lives.

Interesting. The "bigots" you refer to aren't who you'd think they are - white folks. They voted 50/50 on the issue.

No, the "bigots" you refer to are Latinos and African-Americans, who voted overwhelmingly against gay marriage:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/70-of-african-a.html

California's black and Latino voters, who turned out in droves for Barack Obama, also provided key support in favor of the state's same-sex marriage ban. Seven in 10 black voters backed a successful ballot measure to overturn the California Supreme Court's May decision allowing same-sex marriage, according to exit polls for The Associated Press.

More than half of Latino voters supported Proposition 8, while whites were split.


Quoting DocLightning (Reply 151):
I found myself last night wishing that someone would bomb a few Mormon temples and then had to chastise myself for it. Violence is counter-productive and wrong. But I DO wish a few well-placed meteors or tornadoes would do the job.

I'm no fan of the Mormon Church either, but you're wishing death and destruction on people over this?

How "progressive" of you.  sarcastic 

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 166):
I got hurt yesterday. A lot of us got hurt. And YOU DID IT TO US.

You, who? African-Americans? Latinos? Because that's who did it.
 
PSA727
Posts: 921
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:32 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 179):
Please list the court case, law, or constitutional clause that defined smoking as a right.

You're saying that smoking is a privilege...like eating burgers or drinking kool-aid?
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:34 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 174):
If you intentionally harm someone other than out of defense, that is an act of hate.

The people who voted for prop 8 viewed it as an act of defense. The purpose was not to intentionally harm anyone.

I don't want to see churches that do not perform gay marriages be forced to do so or lose their tax exempt status as is already happening in areas where gay marriage and civil unions are legal. I don't want religious beliefs to be de facto dictated by the secular world. I want to be left alone to worship as I see fit.

I don't think marriage as it has been defined since it's institution should be redefined.

I do think that committed gay couples should have all the financial, civil and legal benefits granted married straight couples.
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4323
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:34 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 177):
Yes, I want my gay loved ones to be able to enjoy the same BENEFITS of marriage that I have the option of enjoying.

Just don't call it the same. They aren't worth that benefit.
 
iairallie
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:40 am



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 183):
They aren't worth that benefit.

That's not a benefit. It's redefining. Marriage has a definition wanting it to mean something else does not make it so.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:40 am



Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 180):

I'm no fan of the Mormon Church either, but you're wishing death and destruction on people over this?

Nope. Just the Church. Preferably when empty. It's a fantasy, my friend. If someone had done this to you, you might be fantasizing far worse things than the destruction of an empty building.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 180):

You, who? African-Americans? Latinos? Because that's who did it.

Every single INDIVIDUAL who voted yes or knowingly supported the campaign did it. There are a LOT of hateful people in the world. They're welcome to their views; they are NOT welcome to push it on me.

If you put a proposal on the ballot to ban interracial marriage, it would probably garner 30% of the vote in CA and it might even pass in some states.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 180):

Interesting. The "bigots" you refer to aren't who you'd think they are - white folks. They voted 50/50 on the issue.

Why do you assume that I or anyone would think that only white people can be bigots? The most bigoted people I've met have not been white. I'm not a bigot because I know that bigotry and prejudice know no bounds.

Just because you think something is wrong doesn't mean you should try to ban it. I personally think that organized religion is unethical (propogating a myth to get people to give you money), intellectually offensive (insisting that people have faith and reject clear and sound facts as a condition of that faith), and quite often hateful (supporting Prop 8, supporting torture, supporting slavery, opposing interracial marriage, opposing women's suffrage, etc.). But I would never support banning it.

I *WOULD* support a law mandating that no religious organization may provide any material support to any political cause or candidate, either directly or indirectly.
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:47 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 182):
I don't want to see churches that do not perform gay marriages be forced to do so or lose their tax exempt status as is already happening in areas where gay marriage and civil unions are legal.

They shouldn't be penalised either. If they don't perform one, then they don't perform one. Find one that does. Why the hell would anyone get married in a place (church) that does not believe in what you do (your marriage and your family). I do not want any religion recognising my marriage. I want the state to, so I can be treated as an equal. As a religion, it can deny my marriage all it wants. It affects me in no way.
 
iairallie
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:53 am



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 186):
They shouldn't be penalised either. If they don't perform one, then they don't perform one

It's nice that you feel that way but all it takes is one person who feels otherwise and decides to file a lawsuit against a church that doesn't do gay marriages.
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:54 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 184):
It's redefining.



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 184):
Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 183):
They aren't worth that benefit.

Let me reword it then: Just call it something else, then. Equal, but separate.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:54 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 185):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 180):

You, who? African-Americans? Latinos? Because that's who did it.

Every single INDIVIDUAL who voted yes or knowingly supported the campaign did it. There are a LOT of hateful people in the world. They're welcome to their views; they are NOT welcome to push it on me.

Please understand that I say this as someone who supports gay rights and is saddened by your loss:

"You mean like your vote for Obama shouldn't mean you can impose your President-elect on me, a McCain supporter?"

Obviously I'm being facetious, but I'm sure you see my point.

Like it or not, we live in a country where sometimes the majority rules - even when it sucks. Hopefully things change in time, like they did last night after over 200 years of sadness. But for right now, rightly or wrongly, the majority has spoken.

I disagree with their voice on Prop 8. But they've spoken, and in this country that has to count for something.

At least for now.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 185):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 180):

Interesting. The "bigots" you refer to aren't who you'd think they are - white folks. They voted 50/50 on the issue.

Why do you assume that I or anyone would think that only white people can be bigots?

You're probably blind with rage right now and overlooked the fact that this comment wasn't directed at you. And while you're correct in that anyone - not just white people - can be 'bigots' the classic stereotypical bigot is a white person who fears what is different from themselves.
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:57 am

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 187):
It's nice that you feel that way but all it takes is one person who feels otherwise and decides to file a lawsuit against a church that doesn't do gay marriages.

There will always be one turd in the bowl to spoil it. A judge should know the difference and throw a lawsuit like that out.

There are churches that would more than happy recognise same sex marriages and most gay people know that. The one that feels the need to buck the system will have karma to face. Lawsuits already exist for crap like this (bucking the system). It is nothing but a bump in the road and things eventually smooth out in the end.

[Edited 2008-11-06 03:02:15]
 
iairallie
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:00 am



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 190):
A judge should know the difference and throw a lawsuit like that out.

Not if there are legitimate grounds and with a legal redefinition of marriage there would be.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:05 am



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 181):

You're saying that smoking is a privilege...like eating burgers or drinking kool-aid?

I am not answering your question until you answer mine.

Please list the court case, law, or constitutional clause that defined smoking as a right.

As soon as you answer my question, your answer will also answer your question.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 189):

You're probably blind with rage right now

Rage, yes. Blind no. I see quite clearly.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 189):

Like it or not, we live in a country where sometimes the majority rules - even when it sucks.

No we don't. We live in a country where the Founders repeatedly warned against a "tyrrany of the majority" and that is EXACTLY why majority rule should never decide civil rights. Prop 8 shouldn't have been on the ballot.

If you put a ban on interracial marriage on the ballot and it passed, it would be struck down, majority or not. The same needs to happen here. This country is not and should not be run by majority rule. Officials should be elected by majority rule.
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4323
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:07 am

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 191):
Not if there are legitimate grounds and with a legal redefinition of marriage there would be.

Hardly. Where are the lawsuits now that people file against churches for not recognising their legal (one man/one woman) marriages (interfaith religions, for example (some religions frown/ban that))?

Who cares if there were? Precedence gets set and then we move forward, preventing further frivolous suits. It'll work itself out in the end.

[Edited 2008-11-06 03:09:27]
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:12 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 192):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 189):

Like it or not, we live in a country where sometimes the majority rules - even when it sucks.

No we don't. We live in a country where the Founders repeatedly warned against a "tyrrany of the majority" and that is EXACTLY why majority rule should never decide civil rights.

Unfortunately, that view is a bit naive. Even though the Founding Fathers warned against a "tyranny of the majority," the fact of the matter is that sometimes, overcoming that tyranny can take a lifetime.

I'm hopeful that won't be the case here, but for now Prop 8 has passed.

For now...
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:14 am



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 193):
Where are the lawsuits now that people file against churches for not recognising their legal (one man/one woman) marriages (interfaith religions, for example (some religions frown/ban that))?

I'm not talking about forcing recognition. I am talking about forcing the performance of said weddings. and those lawsuits are already happening. Do a google search.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 193):
Who cares if there were? Precedence gets set and then we move forward, preventing further frivolous suits.

When you redefine marriage these suits are not frivolous they become legitimate.
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:15 am



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 168):

It makes statements like this seem stupid....

 checkmark 

Hypocrisy more than anything

Claiming to want "love" while giving hate. Not very effective

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 169):

In fact, never in history has a minority group been granted equal rights by popular vote.

you're not a minority, get over it

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 178):
Nice comparison. Unfortunately smoking affects the health of others. Gay marriage does not.

Gay marriage makes a joke out of our moral values. What's a society w/out values? Of course, gays that are pushing for this could care less about values

...or the rest of society for that matter
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4323
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:18 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 195):
When you redefine marriage these suits are not frivolous they become legitimate.

Legitimate in the eye of the filer, frivolous in court. This is where precedence is to be set and further similar lawsuits can be tossed.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:21 am



Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 196):
Gay marriage makes a joke out of our moral values.

discriminating against fellow human beings makes a joke out of any claim to have moral values
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4323
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:22 am



Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 196):
Gay marriage makes a joke out of our moral values.

What does divorce do?

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