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iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:24 am



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 197):
Legitimate in the eye of the filer, frivolous in court.

No legitmate in the eye of the court. These cases exist and they are legitimate in the eye of the court where they are happening.
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22347
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:31 am



Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 194):

Unfortunately, that view is a bit naive. Even though the Founding Fathers warned against a "tyranny of the majority," the fact of the matter is that sometimes, overcoming that tyranny can take a lifetime.

And yet no majority voted for any other minority's civil rights.

We'll overcome that tyrrany. And I hope we do it within 10 years. Why? Because I've met a man who I think I'd like to marry some day.

And then we'll see who is naive.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 17988
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:04 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 164):
The funny thing here is the gay agenda wants "normal acceptance" from all of socity, but when socity rejects them, they go "straight" (pun accepted) to court.

Where's the agenda in wanting to affirm lifelong commitment to someone you love?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 166):
The hypocracy is stunning. The same so-called "Conservatives" who want smaller government are using that same government to do stuff like this.

Until this crap is cast out of the Republican party, I'll continue registering independent and voting Libertarian.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 167):
Exactly, where will it stop?

This problem for gays is most people don't see them as a "minority" with disadvantages that merit a special consideration. In my opinion the Yes to prop. 8 means most Americans see gay is a lifestyle for which everyone else now has to make special laws to accommodate a sexual preference.

Slippery slope fallacy, yet again. When will the fallacious arguments absent of any logic against gay marriage stop?

As for the lifestyle argument - screw that!  no  My aunt hasn't been with her partner for 19 years because they're after some kind of "lifestyle". What lifestyle are they talking about? Homeownership? Planning for retirement? Raising children? They're doing all three - yet their neighbors aren't running for the hills because of some creepy "lifestyle" next door. Lifestyle is a section in the newspaper people read to check where a movie is playing  Yeah sure

Sullivan's got it right - once people have a more personal experience with this, they will be more open-minded about it.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 167):
I don't understand the hate and bitterness for the will of the majority.

I don't understand the resistance to and lack of compassion for who want to legally affirm their lifelong commitment and love to another.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 176):
The only solace I have is that the young people (who overwhelmingly opposed Prop 8) are going to replace the old people who are for Prop 8. Time is on our side, it is just a matter of when....

Got that right - another 20-30 years, and this generation will be out, and a more accepting one in. Just like the civil rights era.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 177):
I oppose redefining marriage though.

Where's the redefinition? Churches aren't held to any new standards and marriage before the law would be simply two adults who want to officially unionize. If anything, it's a reaffirmation of what marriage stands for, in a time where marriage is becoming more and more irrelevant as time passes.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 196):
Gay marriage makes a joke out of our moral values. What's a society w/out values? Of course, gays that are pushing for this could care less about values

Right, they don't care about values, which is why they want inclusion in the ability to affirm their commitment and love for one another for life. Nice attempt at a non sequitur.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 198):
discriminating against fellow human beings makes a joke out of any claim to have moral values

hear, hear!
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:13 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 154):
Doubt this very much. I saw nothing of the sort at any of my church meetings nor have I even heard rumors of this. Proof?

How about I saw the members carry out the signs from the ward after their services ended.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 154):
Again if you are going to make claims like that you need to back it up with evidence and links.

Personally, supervised a sex offender unit in the 2nd largest city, host of a Mormon Temple, in Arizona. Stepdaughters were the ones at the highest risk..or how about the Scoutmaster getting caught red-handed by this wife giving one of his scouts a blow job in the ward building located at Mesa and Main in Mesa. Then there was the Mormon teacher at a charter school that was giving the girls extra attention, if you know what I mean. Sorry links aren't available for every offense investigated. Or why Graham County in Arizona, on their pre-sentence reports list your religion in bold print? Utah is actually worst than Arizona for Sexual Abuse etc. which is confirmed by the fact One third of Utah inmates are sex offenders, the highest percentage in the nation. Source:http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695261701,00.html
Here is an article where the LDS is over joyed about the defeat of Prop 8: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705260852,00.html
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:54 pm



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 132):
But modern science has made surrogate embryo-bearers possible. I would think the law would take modern developments into account. Gay people can "procreate", indirectly.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 151):

But if you follow that logic, then infertile people should not be allowed to marry, either.

Yes, people, which is why I made the statement at the end of the post that things have changed in the modern era in terms of marriage and children and procreation. The case reflected a time prior to medical advancement, a time when married people generally had children.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 151):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 136):
My thinking is that many people were confused on the wording of it.
There were some people that thought a 'yes' vote would legalize same-sex marriage.

I doubt that. I think calling it the "Eliminates the Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry Act" was pretty clear.

Of course they knew what they were voting for. Just because SF is liberal doesn't mean the rest of the gigantic state of California is. In fact it might as well be 2 states.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 151):
I found myself last night wishing that someone would bomb a few Mormon temples and then had to chastise myself for it. Violence is counter-productive and wrong. But I DO wish a few well-placed meteors or tornadoes would do the job.

Wow. You are as bad as some of the hate groups.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 166):
I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. I got hurt yesterday. A lot of us got hurt. And YOU DID IT TO US.

This is a genuine, not smart-aleck question: Why is it that you were "prepared to move out of the country" if McCain won, but you're not going to take the same action with this, considering that this affects you directly?

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 182):
I don't want to see churches that do not perform gay marriages be forced to do so or lose their tax exempt status as is already happening in areas where gay marriage and civil unions are legal.

Churches should lose their tax exempt status the minute they lobby or contribute to legislation. Besides, if they have funds to put behind legislation, they can afford to pay taxes.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 196):
Gay marriage makes a joke out of our moral values.

How does 2 committed, loving adults make a joke out of "our" moral values? Would you rather they stay single and screw everything in sight? That makes no sense at all.
 
travelin man
Posts: 3272
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:12 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 182):
don't want to see churches that do not perform gay marriages be forced to do so or lose their tax exempt status as is already happening in areas where gay marriage and civil unions are legal.

FALSE FALSE FALSE. This is absolutely false (even though it has been repeated by the pro-Prop 8 crowd ad nauseum in their (effective) false advertising. That, and "it will make schools teach about gay marriage". FALSE.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 196):
Gay marriage makes a joke out of our moral values. What's a society w/out values? Of course, gays that are pushing for this could care less about values

People like you make a joke out of "moral values". People who confuse "gay" with "immoral" are what is wrong with this country today.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:34 pm

The worse of it is that Proposition 2 - Standards for Confining Farm Animals passed with 63% approval.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:22 pm



Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 196):
Gay marriage makes a joke out of our moral values.

How so? I've heard people throw that claim out a lot, but I've never heard them back it up.

-Mir
 
slider
Posts: 7791
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:45 pm



Quoting San747 (Reply 99):
The most disturbing implication of Prop 8 passing, to me, is the dangerous and disturbing new precedent being set, where a group awarded with a right or freedom has it voted away... I don't want to live in an America where if enough people decide that certain citizens should be denied rights/freedoms that others have, they can be taken away, and that is EXACTLY what just happened yesterday.

Rights are given by God and governments are instituted among men to allow a mechanism to enforce and secure those rights.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 100):
As the vote counting continued this morning, opponents of Prop. 8 filed a lawsuit directly with the state Supreme Court - whose May 15 ruling legalized same-sex marriage - asking the justices to overturn the measure.

The suit argued that Prop. 8 would change the California Constitution in such fundamental ways - taking important rights away from a minority group - that it amounted to a constitutional revision, which requires approval by the Legislature before being submitted to the voters. The case was filed by the American Civil Liberties Union, Lamda Legal and the National Center for Lesbian Rights.

This is how it works in CA and seemingly other places now. The voters have spoken. They already spoke on this issue. But the will of the people doesn’t mean anything as long as the result is something you don’t personally like, is that it? So in CA, they run it up the flagpole to the lawyers, the leftist judges, like the 9th, and they get the answer they want. So why even vote? Just have judicial activist judges rule on high and not based on law.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 159):
And only a fool would say that marriage is defined soley on procreation.

Not necessarily. As I stated above, most Americans believe that marriage is a bond between one man and one woman and nothing else. And Christians would tend to believe that marriage is a sacrament by God, ergo procreation is intrinsically tied to that. But ‘solely’ is the key word and I agree with you there.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 166):
Really? Do you regularly hurt people who you "love"?

I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. I got hurt yesterday. A lot of us got hurt. And YOU DID IT TO US.

When you hurt someone, it is an act of hate. Religious people have tortured and killed out of "love." Do you know what the phrase "words without works" means? Reflect on it.

Wow, pack your bags everyone, “WE” are going on a guilt trip. First of all, “WE” didn’t do anything TO you. The voters of California have spoken. Again. For someone who is an atheist, you should pose your rant next to a cross, because the crucifix would be a good prop for your martyr routine. If you feel so passionately about this, then a more rational and less emotional argument might get a better response.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 194):
I'm hopeful that won't be the case here, but for now Prop 8 has passed.

For now...



Not just for now. But AGAIN. They already voted on this.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 17988
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:52 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 207):

How so? I've heard people throw that claim out a lot, but I've never heard them back it up.

Different year, same story:









 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:01 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 161):
For example, one may be a Mormon, but that same person may also be gay, blond, a motorcycle rider, a former boy scout, and several other factors. So, the 30% being Mormon is meaningless.

Again you're showing your ignorance. Have you ever worked in the field? Of course not.
But to straighten your comments out; very few sex offenders are out of the closet gay folks, to say that gay folks are looking for children is nothing more than a myth. Well since the boy scouts are the only approved activity for LDS males, (are you aware that every mormon male child is registered in the BSA) yes, then one can make the leap from BSA to sex offender in the community that we are talking about, although its not based on BSA activities but rather the actions of troop leaders. Based on my experience, very few sex offenders ride motorcycles..and yes sex offenders cross both sexes. Research also shows if a kid is a victim of a sexual act, then he/she will be more likely to commit a similar offense.

Now, KC if you take the time to read the link that I posted above, it shows that Utah has the highest rate of sexual abuse in the nation. Utah = Mormons. I rest my case.
 
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n229nw
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Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:21 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 184):
That's not a benefit. It's redefining. Marriage has a definition wanting it to mean something else does not make it so.



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 182):
I don't think marriage as it has been defined since it's institution should be redefined.



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 177):
Yes, I want my gay loved ones to be able to enjoy the same BENEFITS of marriage that I have the option of enjoying. I oppose redefining marriage though.

Hmmm. The only "redefining" I see is a bunch of states changing their constitutions to "redefine" marriage where there was no definition before. Marriage is a word that has meant different things at different times in different societies. In some societies, marriage has meant basically ownership of the woman by the man. Governments have constantly changed the rules around "marriage."

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 144):
Again it seems its the tail wagging the dog. Whats next? Vegans forcing a ban on the sale on of steaks at restaurants?, fair skin folks that burn easily get roofs built on our outdoor pools?, Orthodox Jews getting a ban on cars in our cities for the weekly Sabbath?

You simply don't understand, do you? All of those things affect the rights of others. Gay people getting married has zero effect on the rights, or lives, of others. REPEAT: Gay people getting married has zero effect on the rights, or lives, of others.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 180):
Interesting. The "bigots" you refer to aren't who you'd think they are - white folks. They voted 50/50 on the issue.

No, the "bigots" you refer to are Latinos and African-Americans, who voted overwhelmingly against gay marriage:

A bigot is a bigot is a bigot. Doesn't matter what race, gender, sexual orientation, or whatever that person is.

(Oh, I see why you might have thought I meant white people because of the tongue-in-cheek comment about Prussian Blue being from Bakersfield, CA...but I didn't mean that any one group has a monopoly on bigotry, only that it exists in California just as everywhere else.)

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 198):

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 196):
Gay marriage makes a joke out of our moral values.

discriminating against fellow human beings makes a joke out of any claim to have moral values

great post!

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 196):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 169):

In fact, never in history has a minority group been granted equal rights by popular vote.

you're not a minority, get over it

So you think they are a majority? Guess you are even more paranoid that you seem...
 
diamond
Posts: 2999
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:25 pm

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 167):
they voted against gay marriage, overwhelmingly


We define 'overwhelming' differently.

8.9 million people voted to protect gay rights from suppression as opposed to 11.7 million who voted to suppress gay rights. The decisions were clear, yes. But let's not ignore 8.9 million people.



The fact is that the conservatives are the ones who have made gay rights their issue to fight. When gay and gay-friendly people make it their issue to win, the job will be done.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:32 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 185):
They're welcome to their views; they are NOT welcome to push it on me.

Yes Doc. This we both agree on --

So then in the same light its not right for a special interest group to push its views on broader society and force them accept something that is against most peoples core social, historical and religious beliefs.

There is a reason why state after state has passed constitutional amendments in the last decade -- the GLBT community continues to try to hijack one of the most basic corner stones in our society.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:39 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 214):
So then in the same light its not right for a special interest group to push its views on broader society and force them accept something that is against most peoples core social, historical and religious beliefs.

There is a reason why state after state has passed constitutional amendments in the last decade -- the GLBT community continues to try to hijack one of the most basic corner stones in our society.

Look at the last cartoon...marriage has already been hijacked by pop culture and this that and the other. If anything, the fact that gays so desperately want the same status is a reaffirmation of the sanctity of marriage in the face of its increasing irrelevance to society as something of value.

How many times does history need to be brought up in this thread for you to get it? Broader society has favored many things in our past on the basis of longstanding and deeply-held beliefs that are now deemed wrong and blatantly un-American - how is this issue any different? STILL waiting for an answer to that question. STILL want to know how two adults of the same sex swearing their commitment and love to each other for life has any impact on your life OR rights whatsoever aside from affronting your sensibilities about homosexuality and/or offending the tenets of your faith.
 
slider
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Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:53 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 214):
Yes Doc. This we both agree on --

So then in the same light its not right for a special interest group to push its views on broader society and force them accept something that is against most peoples core social, historical and religious beliefs.

There is a reason why state after state has passed constitutional amendments in the last decade -- the GLBT community continues to try to hijack one of the most basic corner stones in our society.

Checkmate...

Very well said. And without fanning flames, I think there is a valid point here. We (I use that term loosely to mean any non-gay person in this instance who’s being branded a hater) are labeled as bigots but the same behavior by the gay community is labeled as something totally different…heroic, crusading for rights, what have you….
 
mt99
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Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:36 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 214):
basic corner stones in our society

Why is it the one of the most basic corner stones in our society?

Why do we have divorce then?

Gay Marriage was legal for a few months in CA. Can anyone tell us how their "traditional" marriages changed during these months? Anyone?

[Edited 2008-11-06 09:42:47]
 
NIKV69
Posts: 15067
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:57 pm



Quoting Planespotting (Reply 111):
Um, you're the one condemning something that

What did I condemn? Can you post that please? CA did buddy.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 111):
is a free choice by folks who are of legal age to make it

Which is also governed by state law thus went to a vote just like the Presidency did.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 111):
doesn't affect you or anyone else in the slightest

Neither do a lot of things but this one again falls under state staute.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 111):
makes a lot of people happy

Not the question here.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 111):
- is basically no different from heterosexual marriage

Its totally not different. Point? It still is subject to state vote.

You the one that has lost, and all your straws are gone so stop grasping.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:14 pm



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 146):
Well then they're stupid or don't have a television, because about $70 million was spent
on this measure by both sides (coming in second only to the Presidential race). I believe
the "yes" was used to affirm what was passed in the previous election and later overturned
by the State Supreme Court.

I agree but you need to keep in mind that there are millions of voters that don't follow politics as much as we do. I've talked to several people before the election that were about to vote 'yes' on prop 8 thinking it would grant same sex marriage. Once I explained to them what prop 8 was about, they decided to vote 'no'.

The yes on 8 campaign used all sorts of dirty tactics down in southern California to get potential no voters to vote yes.
Pretty sick if you ask me.
 
solarix
Posts: 839
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:56 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:40 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 219):
The yes on 8 campaign used all sorts of dirty tactics down in southern California to get potential no voters to vote yes.
Pretty sick if you ask me.

Like what? Most of the violence and vandalism has been coming from the No on 8 crowd. A simple Google search proves this.

The No on 8 people need to man up, stop being sore losers and just accept the fact a majority of California voted Yes.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:47 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 166):
The hypocracy is stunning. The same so-called "Conservatives" who want smaller government are using that same government to do stuff like this.

I'd like to hear the explanation of how smaller government equates to the relaxation of the definition of marriage? It is apples and oranges.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:53 pm



Quoting Solarix (Reply 219):
Like what? Most of the violence and vandalism has been coming from the No on 8 crowd.

I am talking about the proponents lies & scare tactics. Some ads were saying that it would allow gay teachers to teach gay sex to grade school students. That is the kind of lies & scare tactics.
A lot of voters made an uninformed choice.
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5352
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:00 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 208):
So in CA, they run it up the flagpole to the lawyers, the leftist judges, like the 9th, and they get the answer they want. So why even vote? Just have judicial activist judges rule on high and not based on law.

Don't you get that Courts are the "check and balance" on the legislature? What you deride as judicial activism is one of the cornerstones of American Constitutional law. Without "judicial activism" do you have any idea where this country would be? Say hello to a more industrialized version of apartheid-era South Africa with Jim Crow alive and well. It's the role of the Courts to engage in judiical review to determine the Constitutionality of laws, lest the rights of a minority be stamped out by a tyrrany of the majority. I would hope that a basic entry-level civics or US Government course would stress that.
 
Alias1024
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:12 pm

I do have real concern if this is not struck down by the California Supreme Court, as prop 8 is nothing more than an end run around the equal protection clause contained within both the state and US constitutions. Want to take away a right from a protected class? Just change the definition and you can claim that everyone is being treated equally.

The argument prop 8 supporters will likely use in court is that no class is being denied the right to marry, and therefore the proposition does not violate the equal protection clause. Homosexuals can still marry, but it must be someone of the opposite gender because nothing else is by definition 'marriage'. Proposition 8 reads "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California".

So, here is my question, what if in the next election cycle voters approve amending the language introduced by proposition 8 as follows: "only marriage between a man and a woman of the same race is valid or recognized in California"? The same argument would apply. Nobody is being denied a right. An inter-racial couple could not marry because it would not by definition be 'marriage'. Everyone could still get married to someone though, so a right isn't being denied, right?

This redefinition of a word to avoid the equal protection clause is a slippery slope that could undo many of the civil rights advances our society has made if the majority is so inclined.
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2366
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:23 pm

Look, the majority don't like it. Simple as that. Get over it.

And before any of you call me the majority, I'd like to tell you that I am exactly the opposite.
Nothing about me is "majority", but I acknowledge that the majority should rule. When the gays do the same (submit to majority rule) they can go back to work, love their partners and families, and make a life for themselves they can be proud of.


Calling Doctor Lightning, Calling Doctor Lightning.

Did you happen to see the slew of articles recently blaming teenage pregnancy on the media and TV? When I first saw that, I thought immediately of you.  Wink
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:37 pm



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 204):

This is a genuine, not smart-aleck question: Why is it that you were "prepared to move out of the country" if McCain won, but you're not going to take the same action with this, considering that this affects you directly?

Because I firmly believed that a McCain administration, as it appeared that he was going to run it (especially with his choice of Palin), would have destroyed the country. I didn't want to live in a country that was spiraling to economic and political collapse.

This marriage issue is temporary. Gays will have the right to marry before Obama leaves office in eight years.

Now, if an FMA were to pass, then I would move. Spain recognizes gay marriage and they have a critical shortage of pediatricians; and I happen to be a pediatrician.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 220):

I'd like to hear the explanation of how smaller government equates to the relaxation of the definition of marriage? It is apples and oranges.

Simple. A small government doesn't govern marriage and CERTAINLY doesn't decide who can marry who other than obvious stuff like statutory rape and incest.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 213):

So then in the same light its not right for a special interest group to push its views on broader society and force them accept something that is against most peoples core social, historical and religious beliefs.

LAX, I've addressed this same thing so many times, I'm not going to dignify it with a response.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 204):

Wow. You are as bad as some of the hate groups.

Not nearly. I accept and appreciate that my wishes and fantasies are evil and wicked. None of the hate groups would admit that. I'm only human, though. And if someone had done this to you, you would probably have similar fantasies.

Furthermore, I just want to live my own life and not bother anyone else. No hate group, including the various religious organizations that supported these measures, can make that same claim.

Quoting Slider (Reply 208):

Wow, pack your bags everyone, “WE” are going on a guilt trip. First of all, “WE” didn’t do anything TO you.

Really? Did you donate money, directly or indirectly, to the campaign?

Hurts for someone to tell you that you did something very wrong, doesn't it? Makes you defensive. Makes you try to justify your offenses. But now that I've put a human face on it, I can see that you DO feel guilty, but that your pride will not allow you to admit that you've intentionally harmed another human being.

I've never intentionally harmed another human being (well, not since 6th grade when I needed to beat the crap out of the class neo-nazi after he shoved me, nose-first, into a locker). I've never voted for a proposition that would curtail the rights of others. I've never worked or knowingly donated to a campaign or organization that works to harm others in any way. In fact, I even refuse to buy from certain companies because I don't like their human rights practices in other countries.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 214):

How many times does history need to be brought up in this thread for you to get it?

He can't get it, Aaron. He won't get it. His entire world view is based around being told what to believe and what to do by a religious organization. Disagreeing with them would be too scary, too threatening to his beliefs.

He's welcome to his beliefs; but when he and his ilk push it on us, we're going to fight back. And we're going to fight hard. We'll get this overturned; we have a Democratic congress and a Democratic President. I'm not worried. But I'm still enraged and I will be until I get my basic rights back.

Quoting Slider (Reply 215):
We (I use that term loosely to mean any non-gay person in this instance who’s being branded a hater) are labeled as bigots but the same behavior by the gay community is labeled as something totally different…heroic, crusading for rights, what have you….

Slider, please list a single right of yours that the gay community has threatened. Please provide the legal clause to demonstrate that it is a right.

No, don't answer with a question and don't change the subject. Answer my question. Be a man, Slider. Answer it. Or show that you have the cojones to admit that you're wrong.
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5352
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:45 pm



Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 224):
Look, the majority don't like it. Simple as that. Get over it



Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 224):
Nothing about me is "majority", but I acknowledge that the majority should rule.

Uh huh. And at one time the majority didn't like the fact that I, as a biracial man, and my girlfriend, a white woman, could potentially marry and to that end passed laws against it. Are you suggesting that had Loving not been decided as it was that I should just "get over" the fact that I was barred from marrying the person I loved and cohabitated with?
 
EISHN
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:46 pm

I don't understand how this is not being fought like Black Civil Liberties in the 60's, it's absolutely ridiculous, how is a gay person any different to those who aren't gay? While you're at it, ban Black people from getting married, and Jewish people from buying a home. This is Nazi-esque shit. They make it seem like it's some kind of a disease.

Land of the free- I don't think so.

EISHN- Michael (a straight, US citizen living in Ireland)
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:47 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 225):
Simple. A small government doesn't govern marriage and CERTAINLY doesn't decide who can marry who other than obvious stuff like statutory rape and incest.

Well I hate to bust your bubble but marriage is a function of the State, not the federal government. Even if it were, having a statute on the books that says that marriage shall be between one man and one woman does not need a bearucratic staff to back it up. Again, you're talking apples and oranges. When fiscal conservatives speak of a smaller less intrusive government we mean the physical size and cost of that government.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:58 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 228):

Well I hate to bust your bubble but marriage is a function of the State, not the federal government.

So you support large state governments and a small federal government.

Now, when we get this overturned, may I remind you of this post when you support the FMA?

Or can I expect you to be standing by my side as we protest it?
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5352
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:05 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 228):
Well I hate to bust your bubble but marriage is a function of the State, not the federal government.

But when how the States define marriage potentially violate the Equal Protection Clause, it becomes the role of the Federal government to step in.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:14 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 229):
So you support large state governments and a small federal government.

Absolutely. Although I don't support large state governments I do support more power being invested with the states than with federal government as the founders envisioned.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 229):
Now, when we get this overturned, may I remind you of this post when you support the FMA?

Absolutely because once again you are talking apples and oranges. If the FMA were enacted how much would that cost to implement and maintain every year versus say Medicare? I would remind you again that a fiscal conservative is more concerned about cost.

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 230):
But when how the States define marriage potentially violate the Equal Protection Clause, it becomes the role of the Federal government to step in.

And therin lies the ongoing argument I have had running with Ali for years. At what point does the 14th amendment interfere with those powers not enumerated in the Constitution belonging to the people and the states? Is marriage or any regulation of marriage enumerated in the Constitution? If not, where does the federal government have power of its regulation by a state?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:18 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 231):

Absolutely because once again you are talking apples and oranges. If the FMA were enacted how much would that cost to implement and maintain every year versus say Medicare? I would remind you again that a fiscal conservative is more concerned about cost.

The FMA would cost nothing per year. And not having the FMA would cost nothing per year.

This has nothing to do with money.

And, RJdxer, there are things in this world more important than money.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:47 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 232):
And, RJdxer, there are things in this world more important than money.

Agreed but you have been hinting that someone who believes in smaller government should somehow be for gay marriage. My believing in smaller government has more to do with cost and the Constitution than philosophy. Since the FMA would not cost anything, and I don't believe in redefining marriage the answer on how I would view the FMA should be pretty easy to answer.
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:13 pm



Quoting AirCop (Reply 203):
Personally, supervised a sex offender unit in the 2nd largest city, host of a Mormon Temple, in Arizona. Stepdaughters were the ones at the highest risk..or how about the Scoutmaster getting caught red-handed by this wife giving one of his scouts a blow job in the ward building located at Mesa and Main in Mesa. Then there was the Mormon teacher at a charter school that was giving the girls extra attention, if you know what I mean. Sorry links aren't available for every offense investigated.

Those are anectdotal. The religion is incidental not causal. I could give you at least as many examples of non-mormons doing the same things. There are scummy people born and raised in every religion or non-religion. Unless the church has intitutionalized abuse you cannot say the religion is to blame. The LDS church has spoken out time and time again against abuse. LDS.org had tons of information about the topic. There is a large percentage of LDS in Arizona. It only makes sense that proportionaly there are going to be sex offenders that are LDS is a state with an LDS population that large.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 203):
Or why Graham County in Arizona, on their pre-sentence reports list your religion in bold print?

Why does it list that religion in bold print? Do they list all the religions in bold print because there are sex offenders of every creed in the world. If my religion is being singled out it seems to me that there is some bigotry afoot.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 203):
Utah is actually worst than Arizona for Sexual Abuse etc. which is confirmed by the fact One third of Utah inmates are sex offenders, the highest percentage in the nation.

The percentage of sex offender in the Utah prison system does not indicate that there are a higher percentage of sex offenders in the mormon population or that Utah is worse than Arizona for sex abuse. It only indicates that we have more sex offenders behind bars (where they should be)

It could indicate that Utah has tougher sex offender laws and sentencing guidelines.

"Utah tends to keep sex offenders locked up longer than other criminals. More than a third of those incarcerated are first-degree felons serving up to life sentences." from your linked article
"The number of sex offenders imprisoned on first-degree felony convictions doubled after Utah changed its sentencing laws in 1996. In 1995, under minimum mandatory sentencing guidelines, 13 percent of felony sex offenders received the maximum sentence of life in prison. In 2006, 26 percent received life sentences"

It could indicate that sex offenders are more likely to be reported or caught and convicted in Utah.

It could indicate that Utah has lower rates of the other crimes measured. Thus skewing the proportions.

It could indicate a lot of things.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 205):
FALSE FALSE FALSE. This is absolutely false (even though it has been repeated by the pro-Prop 8 crowd ad nauseum in their (effective) false advertising. That, and "it will make schools teach about gay marriage". FALSE.

A google search of the topic shows that it is not false. That there have been lawsuits filed against churches that do not believe in same sex marriages.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 210):
Well since the boy scouts are the only approved activity for LDS males, (are you aware that every mormon male child is registered in the BSA)

HA HA HA I'm sorry where are getting this stuff? LOL too funny. A) LDS males can be involved in any activity they want. My little brother plays soccer, and is involved in other activities. The LDS church does not dictate what organizations you can be involved with. B) it is not required and not every male mormon is registered in the BSA. Plenty are not. My brother is a cub scout by choice not by mandate.

BSA fosters values that are shared by members of my faith. There are a lot of mormons voluntarily involved in BSA for that reason not because someone is ordering them to do it.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 210):
it shows that Utah has the highest rate of sexual abuse in the nation

No, it doesn't. It shows that Utah has the highest percentage of sex offenders in prison. These are two very, very different things.

I think it is fantastic that Utah has the highest percentage of sex offenders in prison it means we are catching sex offenders and locking them up like we should be.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 212):
The fact is that the conservatives are the ones who have made gay rights their issue to fight. When gay and gay-friendly people make it their issue to win, the job will be done.

If it were only conservatives supporting these measures in states like California they would not pass. And I disagree with your anti-gay, pro-gay headings. Whether or not you want to believe it a lot of the people who voted for prop 8 were not anti-gay.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 225):
Gays will have the right to marry before Obama leaves office in eight years.

What does Obama have to do with it? There is no difference between his stand on the issue and that of McCain.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 204):
Churches should lose their tax exempt status the minute they lobby or contribute to legislation. Besides, if they have funds to put behind legislation, they can afford to pay taxes

I agree with this contribution portion. However, the LDS church did not donate funds.

"the church, as an institution, did not contribute directly but did pay for hotel and travel expenses for him and other leaders who participated in the effort."
From aircop's linked article

The donations came from individual members not the organization.

Anyone should be allowed to lobby on behalf of their values.



Quoting AirCop (Reply 203):
Here is an article where the LDS is over joyed about the defeat of Prop 8:

I don't see the overjoyed anywhere in the article. It just seems to articulate the LDS churches stance on the issue. There is no partying in the street or celebrating or gloating.
 
san747
Posts: 4367
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:36 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 235):

Quoting Diamond (Reply 212):
The fact is that the conservatives are the ones who have made gay rights their issue to fight. When gay and gay-friendly people make it their issue to win, the job will be done.

If it were only conservatives supporting these measures in states like California they would not pass. And I disagree with your anti-gay, pro-gay headings. Whether or not you want to believe it a lot of the people who voted for prop 8 were not anti-gay.

I'm not sure where people get this myth that California is a "liberal" state. Yes, they have consistently voted Democrat in recent presidential elections, but that's about it. Southern California (with the exception of LA) is arguably the most conservative area in the country outside of the Texas and the Deep South. Also the Central Valley (from Palmdale to Modesto) is almost exclusively conservative.

There is a strong evangelist, non-denominational Christian element in these regions who believe in no uncertain terms that homosexuality is wrong, and you'd be foolish to believe that they didn't vote for Prop 8 because of that. Whether or not YOU want to believe it, I know personally (I've lived in SoCal for 17 years) that a lot of the people who voted for Prop 8 WERE anti-gay.
 
diamond
Posts: 2999
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:49 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 235):
Whether or not you want to believe it a lot of the people who voted for prop 8 were not anti-gay.

A person who says, " ... I have nothing against gay people, as long as they don't move into the house next door to me ... " is anti-gay.

A person who says, " ... I have nothing against gay people as long as they stay away from my church ... " is anti-gay.

So a person who says " ... I have nothing aginst gay people as long as they don't expect to get married in my state ... " is anti-gay.


Any attempt to dress their yes-to-Prop-8 vote as pro-gay is false.
 
slider
Posts: 7791
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:03 pm



Quoting Diamond (Reply 240):
A person who says, " ... I have nothing against gay people, as long as they don't move into the house next door to me ... " is anti-gay.

A person who says, " ... I have nothing against gay people as long as they stay away from my church ... " is anti-gay.

So a person who says " ... I have nothing aginst gay people as long as they don't expect to get married in my state ... " is anti-gay.


Any attempt to dress their yes-to-Prop-8 vote as pro-gay is false.

And to think the right wingers get accused of being the radical zealots around here…

What you’re failing to see (and from the sounds of it a lot of emotive responses herein from members of the GLBT community are clearly a bit emotional and understandably so right now), is that there are many of us who are truly ambivalent. I for one have gay friends, gay fraternity brothers, co-workers, hell what people want to do in their bedroom is their business. Morally, I have my own beliefs but it doesn’t preclude me from being friends with them (akin to the old ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ line). I also have gay people at my church and it even has a ministry devoted to them! My former neighbors about 5 years ago were lesbians. And one had a son from a prior marriage.

But I’ll repeat my original statement that I believe and my basic Christian faith contends that marriage is a gift from God and something that is sacred for a man and woman. That’s the equation. I didn’t write it, but I believe it. It’s something that ALL of the world’s major religions and pretty much every denomination concur with. I despise organized religion in its general format too, having broken from Catholicism ages ago, but there are foundational tenets of Christianity and marriage between a man and woman is one of them.

You don’t have to agree and that’s cool, we’ll agree to disagree. But I would respectfully tell you that you’re swimming up the current here since we have thousands of years of human history on our side.

And I am sick and tired of the portrayal of anyone who simply wants to disagree as bigots or homophobes or whatever. I’m not homophobic, I just don’t like it. And that’s my prerogative.
 
san747
Posts: 4367
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:14 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 242):

And I am sick and tired of the portrayal of anyone who simply wants to disagree as bigots or homophobes or whatever. I’m not homophobic, I just don’t like it. And that’s my prerogative.

That's great, but just because you don't like the idea of gay marriage doesn't mean you have the right to deprive homosexuals of that right. That's the whole point. I think a lot of people are making a big deal of this because people's rights were taken away because enough other people felt they don't deserve them.

That is not an American value. That is not a moral value, and frankly, it's not a value that I was taught any time during my 10-year tenure as an Episcopalian.
 
diamond
Posts: 2999
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:15 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 242):
But I’ll repeat my original statement that I believe and my basic Christian faith contends that marriage is a gift from God and something that is sacred for a man and woman.

I'ts more than what your Christian faith causes it to mean to you.

Marriage is not only a religious thing, it's a legal thing. This is a nation that is supposed to provide the same rights, protections and opportunities for all - whether they are a member of your faith or not.

Quoting Slider (Reply 242):
And I am sick and tired of the portrayal of anyone who simply wants to disagree as bigots or homophobes or whatever. I’m not homophobic,

And I am sick and tired of people who have homophobic beliefs, and want everyone to excuse their views as some sort of a religious-based exception - so they can continue to falsely congrulate themselves for not being homophobic.

Yes, you have a perogative to believe what you want. And you can choose not to support gay marriage for the rest of your life, if that's what your conscience says to do. But the fact is that it is a clear example of homophobia. You just don't want anyone to call it that.

If you'd simply be able to say, "yes, I'm homophobic when it comes to gay marriage" it would seem far more genuine.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:19 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 242):
And I am sick and tired of the portrayal of anyone who simply wants to disagree as bigots or homophobes or whatever. I’m not homophobic, I just don’t like it. And that’s my prerogative.

Its like saying I don't like Baptist. So we should ban the Baptist religion. After all Its choice to be a Baptist no?
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:24 pm



Quoting San747 (Reply 237):
that a lot of the people who voted for Prop 8 WERE anti-gay.

That may be so I didn't say anything to contradict that. Many of the people who voted for prop 8 are not anti-gay.

I know there are swaths of conservatism in California. But if the conservative alone were passing prop 8 then McCain would have won California. Are you telling me that the black voters who overwhelmingly supported prop 8 are all conservatives?

Quoting Diamond (Reply 240):
A person who says, " ... I have nothing against gay people, as long as they don't move into the house next door to me ... " is anti-gay.

Many of the people who voted for prop 8 would never say this.

My next door neighbor is a gay man. My former roomate and close friend was a gay man.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 240):
A person who says, " ... I have nothing against gay people as long as they stay away from my church ... " is anti-gay.

As much as my church has been bashed on this thread. You can be gay and Mormon. You should read what we actually believe on the church website. LDS.org

Quoting Diamond (Reply 240):
So a person who says " ... I have nothing aginst gay people as long as they don't expect to get married in my state ... " is anti-gay.

I still have nothing against gay people I just don't think that marriage should be redefined.
 
slider
Posts: 7791
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:30 pm



Quoting Diamond (Reply 244):
Marriage is not only a religious thing, it's a legal thing.

Fine, then use the various legal contracts and mechanisms at your disposal to legally secure what you want. “Marriage” in word, ceremony and such is not the way to do that. And the people of CA have once again affirmed that. But don’t worry, like I said, it’ll get rammed through eventually. I’ll bet you.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 244):
If you'd simply be able to say, "yes, I'm homophobic when it comes to gay marriage" it would seem far more genuine.



Not really. The word homophobic means “fear”. I have no fear, I just don’t agree with it. Not agreeing with the tenets of GLBT lifestyle or gay marriage is NOT equivalent with being homophobic.
 
Alias1024
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:36 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 247):
I still have nothing against gay people I just don't think that marriage should be redefined.

Prop 8 redefined marriage in California. The definition of marriage under California law prior to the passage of Prop 8 did not specify gender. The first attempt to redefine marriage was struck down as unconstitutional. Prop 8 is the second attempt.
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:37 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 164):
That is about the stupidest think I have ever read on any a.net board.

You're not helping your case by writing that sort of things. Great. Honestly. If this is the kind of reaction this thread is going to produce, I'm stepping out. Your post is disgusting.

Other people have posted very similar arguments on this board. You choose to ignore them.

Being gay is not any more of a choice than being infertile.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5563
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:39 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 242):
I despise organized religion in its general format too, having broken from Catholicism ages ago, but there are foundational tenets of Christianity and marriage between a man and woman is one of them.

But the state government is not a messenger of the Christian church.

Quoting Slider (Reply 242):
But I would respectfully tell you that you%u2019re swimming up the current here since we have thousands of years of human history on our side.

Would you have said the same thing to African-Americans when they were trying to end slavery? There was thousands of years of history on the side of slavery and even the most people still supported it, it was outlawed.
 
san747
Posts: 4367
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RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:44 pm



Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 249):

Prop 8 redefined marriage in California. The definition of marriage under California law prior to the passage of Prop 8 did not specify gender. The first attempt to redefine marriage was struck down as unconstitutional. Prop 8 is the second attempt.

If the first attempt was struck down as unconstitutional, that should have been the end of it, unless there was LEGAL recourse to reverse that decision, which there is none in the first place.

There is NO way you can legally justify to a court that adding language that makes marriage only between a man and a woman is NOT gender discrimination and therefore, unconstitutional.
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2854
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:52 pm



Quoting San747 (Reply 252):
If the first attempt was struck down as unconstitutional, that should have been the end of it, unless there was LEGAL recourse to reverse that decision, which there is none in the first place.

There is NO way you can legally justify to a court that adding language that makes marriage only between a man and a woman is NOT gender discrimination and therefore, unconstitutional.

The argument is that changing the definition does not deprive anyone of the right to marriage. Everyone can get married, as long as it is to someone of the other gender. Anything else would be by definition not marriage and nobody could get a marriage license for anything other than a marriage.

This has scary implications for equal protection if the court does not reject Prop 8. The majority could revoke virtually any rights from the minority with carefully crafted definitions of rights.
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 26371
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:59 pm



Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 222):
It's the role of the Courts to engage in judiical review to determine the Constitutionality of laws,



Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 223):
I do have real concern if this is not struck down by the California Supreme Court

Amendments to the constitution - or basically an all new clause to constitution is something courts rarely question let alone reverse. The courts primary guidance after all are the words written in the constitution by its citizens.

The CA Supreme Court matter in fact while tossing of Prop-22 statue actually suggested the remedy that voters could come back with a amendment.

Prop-22 was a much softer family code statute which the court found fault with that it was in violation of the states existent constitution -- Its no coincidence this time around voters have chosen to modify the constitution itself and constitutional amendments by their nature are much stronger and above court and legislature tinkering and successfully enacted in near 30 other states.

Now at some point - someone might want to question the legality of these ammendments to the US Supreme Court - however such a challenge could be fraught with danger also as if the court refuses to hear the case, or finds in favor of the individual states the door for future recourse would be slammed shut. Really be the ultimate gamble.
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3262
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Californias Day Of Shame - Prop 8 Passes

Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:12 pm



Quoting Diamond (Reply 212):

8.9 million people voted to protect gay rights from suppression as opposed to 11.7 million who voted to suppress gay rights.

Or . . . 8.9 million voters voted for same-sex marriage and 11.7 voted to uphold/protect what marriage has always been defined to be.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 212):
The decisions were clear, yes.

 checkmark 

Quoting Diamond (Reply 244):
And I am sick and tired of people who have homophobic beliefs

"Homophobic" - sometimes, I don't think that term is quite accurate, since some people think it means "fear of gay people", of which I'm not, but I understand the context. Beyond that, it's quite possible that many of the 11.7 million voted because their beliefs have Scriptural foundations beyond the same ol' Leviticus argument (like Romans 1, 1 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy).

Quoting Diamond (Reply 244):
This is a nation that is supposed to provide the same rights, protections and opportunities for all - whether they are a member of your faith or not.

True, but homosexuality is something that involves behavior, which reflects choices, responsibility, morality, etc. Being of a certain color or gender is not in the same category - these are obviously inherent qualities to who individuals are - and until there's absolute scientific proof that homosexuality is purely an inherent part of who an individual is, those 11.7 million and more will continue to conclude that same-sex relations are a matter of behavior.
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