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bill142
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:21 am

if Bernies system had been in place during 2008, Massa would have been WDC not Hamilton as Massa had more wins. The medals system rewards pot luck rather than hard fought consistency.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:43 pm



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 49):
It can be quite different to the points system.

My point was quite simply that with either system it's perfectly feasible for the WDC to be decided several races before the end of the season.

People should not forget that the last two seasons have spoiled us in terms of "last-minute champions". Of course, if the FIA and stewards had not gotten involved, things would have been wrapped up sooner!  duck 

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 49):
Under Bernie's plan driver A could win 6 races and DNF the other 12, driver B might win 5 be 2nd 3-4 times and 3rd a few more. Driver A is the champion, is he really a more deserving champion?

Not IMHO, no.

My reasoning is fairly simplistic on this topic. IN GENERAL, the driver winning the most races SHOULD (most seasons) end up being the WDC. However, in order to prevent "freak" results, the point-scoring system should simply reward race winners more than it currently does. However, not to the extent that the driver winning the most races is guaranteed to win the WDC - which is effectively what Bernie is proposing.
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scbriml
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:45 pm



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 50):
if Bernies system had been in place during 2008, Massa would have been WDC not Hamilton as Massa had more wins. The medals system rewards pot luck rather than hard fought consistency.

Indeed. Massa's one extra race victory would have been the one he was gifted by the race stewards at Spa!  banghead 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:26 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 48):
Which is actually no different to the points system, is it? If one driver/car combination is dominant, the WDC is likely all over several races before the end of the season.

Not really. Let's assume LH has the best combination for 2009 and Massa is just behind. And by mid season LH won 7 races and Massa came 2nd in all of them. The season would be over, yet by points they would have a few points difference that one DNF by LH could change the whole thing. In the MS days, the season would have been even less competitive.
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B747forever
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:57 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 47):
Save the best for last

Hehe, so true.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 51):
My reasoning is fairly simplistic on this topic. IN GENERAL, the driver winning the most races SHOULD (most seasons) end up being the WDC.

Well I think that the driver that takes the most points is the one that should win the WDC. I think that as it is today is good. Maybe a point or two extra for the race winner, so drivers will fight for first place. Otherwise quite good
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scbriml
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:59 pm



Quoting B747forever (Reply 54):
Well I think that the driver that takes the most points is the one that should win the WDC.

Somewhat stating the obvious.  smile 

I'm not actually disagreeing with you, and I thought I'd made my position clear - IN GENERAL, most seasons the driver winning the most races SHOULD end up being champion.

I surprise myself by agreeing with Bernie on this - the current point system devalues a race win. Winning a GP should be worth more than 2 extra points over 2nd place. IHMO, a win is worth 50% more points than 2nd place.
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EZEIZA
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:23 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 55):
I surprise myself by agreeing with Bernie on this - the current point system devalues a race win. Winning a GP should be worth more than 2 extra points over 2nd place. IHMO, a win is worth 50% more points than 2nd place.

I agree the winner should have more points. at least 5 over 2nd place, and also the top three should have a greater difference compared to 4th place. Winners should have more, but the podium should also have more difference. In any case, I don't like the medal system  Smile
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B747forever
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:26 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 56):
also the top three should have a greater difference compared to 4th place. Winners should have more, but the podium should also have more difference.

True there is just one point between 3rd and 4th. It should be at least 2.
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TIMC
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:23 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 42):
Scott Dixon should be given an F1 drive, he's probably a lot better than many of the drivers currently in F1. Plus it might get the US market interested if the (even thought he's a Kiwi) IRL champ performed well in F1.

Always makes me laugh when people say that. Anyone remember Christiano di Matta? He claimed he was better than most of the drivers in F1 at the time, came over to F1 and in two seasons never made an impact.

Then we have Bourdais - how many times has he been champion in the American series? Comes to F1 and he was comprehensively outclassed by a 21 year old who came through the European single seater series.

I'm sorry, but American single seat racing doesn't produce drivers anywhere near the same quality as European racing does.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:39 pm



Quoting TIMC (Reply 58):
came over to F1 and in two seasons never made an impact

And there are others.. Zanardi, Andretti(Michael) even Montoya.

Cheers
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LTU932
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:01 pm



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 59):
And there are others.. Zanardi, Andretti(Michael) even Montoya.

Out of all those, I say Montoya was the worst. A polarising figure who has nothing but hate for most of F1.

Recently I saw in a TV show that he does not want to have anything to do with F1 anymore, meaning that even if someone does offer him the chance for a comeback, he'll still stay in NASCAR.

I say let Montoya stay in NASCAR. Formula 1 doesn't need assholes like him, who show nothing but contempt for everything, including their own teammates.
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EZEIZA
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:20 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 60):
I say let Montoya stay in NASCAR. Formula 1 doesn't need assholes like him, who show nothing but contempt for everything, including their own teammates.

... and F1 already has Alonso for that ... Wink
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Kiwirob
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:25 pm



Quoting TIMC (Reply 58):
I'm sorry, but American single seat racing doesn't produce drivers anywhere near the same quality as European racing does.

True but Dixon is a Kiwi and wouldn't have the attitude that the Amewrican drivers come over with.

Also don't forget Jacques Villeneuve was a champion first in CART then won the F1 Championship in 97.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:59 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 61):
... and F1 already has Alonso for that ...

Alonso isn't nearly as bad as Juan Pablo Montoya was. At least Alonso has success that backs him up, unlike that wannabe driver JPM.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:51 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 63):
Alonso isn't nearly as bad as Juan Pablo Montoya was. At least Alonso has success that backs him up, unlike that wannabe driver JPM.

That's true, but what I know for sure is that I could not handle both of them together. I hope JPM never comes back ... but if he ever has to, I'd love to see him in the same team as Alonso ... it will be an ego war all season!
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bill142
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:38 am

Bah! Formula One needs Juan Pablo Montoya. Purely for his personality. Otherwise we're stuck with these boring monotone robots ruled by the PR department. Bring on Formula Juan.
 
jush
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:15 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11):
I doubt that. Aerodynamic adjustments are a big part of motorsports in general, and what FIA is doing is killing another true motorsports aspect of F1, just as they killed lots of F1 over the years and keep doing.

Absolutely wrong. By forbidding the aerodynamic helps the teams invented over the years and reintroducing only a proper front wing and rear spoiler they will bring back racing altogether.

You will have slipstream overtakes again. You will see faster corner drive throughs because of the slicks. And yes you have to get used to the new looks but the races will be much better.

I fully agree with the new rules as the sissy rules of the 90s are banned more and more.
The tyres were a pain in the ass and looked just ridiculous. Thank god we are back to slicks.

And in my opinion the cars looked shit with all these aerodynamic tweaks they had.
Hopefully they will ban the "hubcaps" on the rims as well, as they look like ass to me.

Regds
jush

[Edited 2008-11-28 02:25:34]
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jush
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:24 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 34):

I've heard about it, andI also believe that Bernie has once again lost his mind.

Wrong!

Making this ridiculous point structure we have now is a result with which the FIA tried to help the competitors of Michael Schumacher. By giving more points for the second place they tried to give other people chances to win.

Giving Olympic style medals for race positions is great and will bring winning a grand prix back to another level. Hopefully we won't see this Hamilton shit again as he was deliberately not trying to win this last year in favour of getting a second place.

What has become of racing when you are calculating in the cockpit instead of trying to win.
Apparently you all in this thread have gotten used to the sissy Formula One and I can't believe that you like even like it.

I would say reintroduce the old point structure with only 6 points for the second place or put the medal thing into place.

Bernie is a boner but some of his new ideas are good and this is one of them.

Regds
jush
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EZEIZA
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:34 pm



Quoting Jush (Reply 67):
Giving Olympic style medals for race positions is great and will bring winning a grand prix back to another level. Hopefully we won't see this Hamilton shit again as he was deliberately not trying to win this last year in favour of getting a second place.

Jush, I agree with you that LH played safe and not to win the last few races, but the medal system could have him (or anyone else that has won 6 or 7 races not even needing to finish all together.

Quoting Jush (Reply 67):
I would say reintroduce the old point structure with only 6 points for the second place or put the medal thing into place

Everyone is agreeing that the point structure should be revised, but not taken away. Keep a point structure with more points for the winner, and also with more pints for the podium compared to the rest.

Quoting Jush (Reply 67):
Apparently you all in this thread have gotten used to the sissy Formula One and I can't believe that you like even like it.

But you have to admit that because of the point structure or because the drivers' / cars have more or less the same levels, the last two sesons were decided in the last lap of the last race, so the excitment part of F1 was there, and IMHO with the medal system you have a high chance of losing this in favour of having a season decided with 3 or 4 (or even more) races left.
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B747forever
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:17 pm



Quoting Jush (Reply 67):
put the medal thing into place.

Bernie is a boner but some of his new ideas are good and this is one of them.

What are you kidding?? So you want to see the F1 season be won by a driver in maybe 8races?? That would be soooo boring
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GrahamHill
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:51 pm



Quoting Jush (Reply 67):
Bernie is a boner but some of his new ideas are good and this is one of them.

I disagree with that. If a driver wins 8 races and DNFs 8 times, he would probably be world champion without completing half of the season, which would be quite unfair for all the others who battled during 16 races.

Win is important, but the overall performance should also be taken into account. Point system has worked for the last 60 years in Formula one and in other disciplines, why would you change something that is working?
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LTU932
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:34 pm



Quoting Jush (Reply 67):
Bernie is a boner but some of his new ideas are good and this is one of them.

I'm sorry, but I beg to differ. As far as the medal system is concerned, I still stand by what I said, Bernard Charles Ecclestone has lost his mind, just as his mate Max Mosley did when he played Nazi with a group of expensive whores.

The medal system will only cause F1 to become more and more strategic than it already is. Just think about it. Re-introducing the old system of a four point difference between first and second is a more wise idea. Given the system of today, you could as well make it a 12-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 system. Otherwise, if it ain't broken, DON'T FIX IT!

Another proof of Bernie losing his mind is his idea of introducing the Einheitsmotor or standard engine for all teams. This isn't the A1 Series or Indycar, this is Formula 1, the pinnacle of automobile development. Bernie and Max have damaged the series too much with their restrictions on engines. I only agree on the rules of durability, which means that an engine has to last 2 races, next season it's 3 races in which the engine has to last, crashes being exempt from that rule though.

This is where my plan, which is based on rules from F1 seasons past, is better. Re-introduce V10 engines or even V12 engines, ban fuel stops and thus force teams to make more fuel efficient engines, where a whole tank lasts the entire race, and finally make more restrictions on tyre changes, where you can only change the compound before the race and only change tyres because of either wear and tear, or because of weather, but NOT change compounds during the actual race.
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BlueElephant
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:31 pm

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72309

Sato's getting another Test...looks like Buemi isn't...

If what was said earlier is true then It is likely that Buemi and Sato will be the Torro Rosso drivers although it has been stated that Barichello might get a seat too.

I would still like to see Sato and Bourdais at Torro Rosso...I think that would be great.


Anyone know whats going on at Honda?...Looks like Button is retaining his seat but what about the second?...I think it was between DeGrassi and Senna?

I think that makes up the remaining Driver spots?
 
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scbriml
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:15 pm

The BBC is reporting that Honda is about to announce their withdrawal from F1. If a buyer for the team cannot be found by the end of March, the team will shut down.

If one of the sport's giants, with a proud history, is pulling out, is this the begining of the end of F1 as we know it?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7766092.stm

Quote:
Honda will quit Formula One on Friday, BBC Sport understands.

The Japanese car manufacturer are set to announce that they are selling their team, with a view to closing it down by the end of March if no buyer is found.

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BlueElephant
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:16 pm

 
bapilot2b
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:24 pm

IF Honda pull out I can see Toyota doing the same within a week.

It will be a very sad day when/if Honda pull out but it has happened in the past....

The grid will be very thin come the first round of the 2009 season, maybe all this crap about consumer cars can be dumped in the FIA's rubbish bin along with Moseley and Ecclestone.
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Stealthz
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:42 am



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 73):
is this the begining of the end of F1 as we know it?

Perhaps as we have known it recently.. but the end?

I doubt it.

Quoting BAPILOT2B (Reply 75):
maybe all this crap about consumer cars can be dumped

Absolutely, The current crisis in F1 can be squarely layed at the feet of Messrs. Ecclestone and Mosely, not the Global economic crisis or credit crunch.
Over a period of many years they have, with others, orchestrated(conspired) the demise of the real F1 constructors, the "garagista" so hated by Enzo Ferrari.
It is time this trend was reversed and the likes of Red Bull, McLaren, Williams(perhaps the last of the garagista) able to sell customer cars.
It might even be time to rewrite the rules regarding who can build F1 cars, perhaps time we had Lola, Dallara and others building cars but not actually racing them.
One of the downsides in the new found power of FOTA is that they are about protecting their status quo and will probably not like this suggestion but I think it is time to try something radically new(or old!).

Cheers

Chris
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B747forever
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:14 am

If Honda really will quite to race in F1, we need a new team. Without Honda we will be down to only 18 cars!
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LTU932
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:40 am



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 73):
The BBC is reporting that Honda is about to announce their withdrawal from F1.

So Honda wants to quit F1. Hell, they didn't even give Ross Brawn enough time to build them a half-way decent car, so they can progressively climb as far as their performance is concerned.

Oh well, Max and Bernie can thank themselves for this, after all they've done to hurt what used to be the pinnacle of all racing.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 73):
If one of the sport's giants, with a proud history, is pulling out, is this the begining of the end of F1 as we know it?

Probably. Honda is, along with Mercedes-Benz and Ferrari one of the big players as far as history is concerned. If they pull out and don't even remain as engine supplier (like during the Renault pullout in the 90's), then this could hurt F1 a lot.
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scrubbsywg
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:16 am

honda has announced the immediate withdrawal from f1.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72322

Quote:
Honda have announced their immediate withdrawal from Formula One, the Japanese manufacturer's president and CEO Takeo Fukui confirmed on Friday morning.

wow. i am surprised. this will shake things up. who buys the team?

Honda have a long history in f1, so this is a sad day.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:33 am

Mosely proposes standard Cosworth built engine ....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72324

Not sure about this but I think it has some merit, to me(at first glance) it looks like a better plan than the 1.8L turbo proposal that FOTA floated.

It does seem to throw a crumb to the manufacturers that had concerns about standard engines.
It will be an interesting story to follow over the coming weeks.

Cheers
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:49 am



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 79):
honda has announced the immediate withdrawal from f1.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report...72322

I will miss them greatly during the next season at the next Monaco GP.

The Aguris are gone, now Honda is also leaving F1.
This is bad news.

R.I.P. Honda F1 team. You have always done great work.

All the latest F1 news make me hate the Max and Bernie duet a little more each day.
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scrubbsywg
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:52 am

i

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 81):
All the latest F1 news make me hate the Max and Bernie duet a little more each day.

to be honest, and i have said this before, i am almost more fearful of the future of f1 if max and/or bernie are gone. F1 is dynamic, and it has changed for the good and bad throughout its history. If someone else was running f1, what would it be like? Better? worse? It is the evil you know vs. the evil you don't.
 
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:28 am



Quoting B747forever (Reply 77):
If Honda really will quite to race in F1, we need a new team. Without Honda we will be down to only 18 cars!

Make that 16 when Toyota follow Honda in a pull out....

Nobody is going to start up a new team for the next couple of years unless the customer car deal is reversed or massive cost cuts are implemented and implemented fast rather than being discussed endlessly.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:02 am

I fear more teams are going to leave...  confused 

MyEarthDream You will be greatly missed...
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Your 2007 blue car was simply awesome, a true beauty.  crying 
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GrahamHill
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:37 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 78):
Oh well, Max and Bernie can thank themselves for this, after all they've done to hurt what used to be the pinnacle of all racing.

Exactly!

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 81):
You have always done great work.

Not really! Apart from 2006, which was their best year, they never achieved anything decent in 2007 and 2008, finishing 9th in 2008 with 14 points and finishing 8th in 2007 with only 6 points. For a manufacturer like that, second biggest in Japan behind Toyota, they were more ridiculous than anything else.

I'm just sad for Brawn as he did not have the time to achieve something in this team. I'm sure he could have put Honda back on the first part of the ranking table.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 81):
All the latest F1 news make me hate the Max and Bernie duet a little more each day.

Me too, but it's not a new feeling for me Big grin
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
ltbewr
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:45 am

With the Honda pullout, who know how many other companies may consider withdrawing from F1 and other areas of auto racing. I think F1 will have to make radical changes to stay alive especially to reduce the costs and excessive technology. The cars are ugly, there is no real competition as maybe 3 companies really in competition. That F1 has given up on the North American markets for the Middle East and South Asia is a disturbing trend. The deep pockets of tobacco are now gone for good reasons and there has been no compatable replacement major sponsors.

Auto racing has become very distant from production cars and the need to product more fuel efficient or non-oil based fuel using vehicles. We need family sized cars that get 35+ MPG not ones that can go 0-60 mph in 8 seconds or less or can go over 100 mph. That is not what racing cars are about. All car makers in the US and EU are facing 20% or more declines in sales due to employment insecurity, tighter or no credit available and more questioning the need for new cars. That could be a permenant trend as fewer will be able to afford new cars or more profitable larger cars.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:09 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 86):
With the Honda pullout, who know how many other companies may consider withdrawing from F1 and other areas of auto racing.

I believe the Honda announcement is just the beginning, many point to Toyota following suit but what of BMW, Mercedes, Renault etc... even Ferrari.
If Mercedes decide times are tough.. what of McLaren?
Will they allow McLaren to continue, will they write off their ownership or will they insist the team quit altogether. Similar issues at BMW/Sauber.
Were these questions asked before the teams made their pacts with the devil?

Racing survived many economic downturns during the 20th century, perhaps because it wasn't beholden to big business. Now may be the time to cut those ties again.

Big business will get involved when it suits and pull out .. as we have seen today.. when it suits.
The small teams that made F1 what it was in the '60s-'70s were in it for the passion and only left when they ran out of support or were driven out by the Max/Bernie meglomania.

Perhaps there is a new generation of Colin Chapman, Guy Ligier, Alexander Hesketh, Eddie Jordan, Ken Tyrell, Giancarlo Minardi, Robin Herd/(dare I say it?.. Max Mosely) clones ready to take up the challenge.

Cheers
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:29 pm



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 80):
Mosely proposes standard Cosworth built engine ....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72324

Well, at least it's not being forced upon teams like it was originally being made out to be.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 85):
Not really! Apart from 2006, which was their best year, they never achieved anything decent in 2007 and 2008, finishing 9th in 2008 with 14 points and finishing 8th in 2007 with only 6 points. For a manufacturer like that, second biggest in Japan behind Toyota, they were more ridiculous than anything else.

Shame to hear about Honda pulling out. I wonder if Jenson Button is now starting to regret buying out his Williams contract a few years ago so he can stick with Honda.  Wink
 
Gman94
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:55 pm

I feel most sorry for the Ross Braun and the guys who took the decision to write off this season beofre it had started in favour of concentrating everything on making and developing the 2009 car. I was looking forward to see what they had come up with but I guess it's not to be unless someone steps in to takeover. Sad day, I agree with others that this is more to do with the Bernie and Moseley's meddling rather then the credit crunch.
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cornish
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:41 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 89):
Sad day, I agree with others that this is more to do with the Bernie and Moseley's meddling rather then the credit crunch.

Really ? I may not be a fan of Bernie and Max but i won't lay this at their door.

Problem is that Honda are seeing their global sales falling dramtically. They are already halting production temporarily at some of their plants, including their UK one. They are spenidng an absolute fortune on F1 and running round at the back of the grid. No company board is going to continue approving such expenditure indefinitely in that environment. Fine if you are winning, but propping up the back of the grid.

Its been said for a long time that as the sport moved from specialist constructors to manufacturers while the rewards would be that much greater, the flip side is the risk would be that much greater. An old fashioned team like Williams, or many of the others over the years existed only for racing in F1. Manufacturers like Honda are in F1 to sell road cars. When they are not winning and they are not selling road cars then they will logically start to pull out and spend their money elsewhere. Sad but true.

And so for that reason, Toyota is likely to go, Renault may not be around long term either....

But i wouldn't blame Bernie and Max for this particular one. after all, Honda have been concentrating on their 2009 car pretty much longer than anyone, once they wrote off the 2008 season months and months ago...
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:46 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 86):
That F1 has given up on the North American markets for the Middle East and South Asia is a disturbing trend

They are giving it up on the European market as well! Think about it: in 1998, 11 races out of 16 were in Europe (a bit less than 70%). In 2009, there will be 8 GPs out of 17 in Europe (47%)!
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
bill142
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:58 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 86):
That F1 has given up on the North American markets for the Middle East and South Asia is a disturbing trend.

Maybe for you in North America. South Asian and Middle Eastern economies are amongst the booming economies in the world. Even with all the financial crisis, they're still well placed. So it's easy to see why these markets are attractive. Money and People.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 83):
Make that 16 when Toyota follow Honda in a pull out....

I don't think we will see Toyota pull out. They're a much stronger company then Honda are. Toyotas Market cap is around US$171Billion compared to US$58 billion for Honda. Toyota just need to make their team work better on less.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 78):
Honda is, along with Mercedes-Benz and Ferrari one of the big players as far as history is concerned. If they pull out and don't even remain as engine supplier (like during the Renault pullout in the 90's), then this could hurt F1 a lot.

Probably not, they've pulled out before. I'm sure they'll come back again. If anything, Hondas pull out is a wake up call for the rest of the teams to get things in order and stop blowing money.
 
B747forever
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:23 pm



Quoting Cornish (Reply 83):
Make that 16 when Toyota follow Honda in a pull out....

But why Toyota too?? I dont really get it.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
Boeing74741R
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:17 pm



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 91):
They are giving it up on the European market as well! Think about it: in 1998, 11 races out of 16 were in Europe (a bit less than 70%). In 2009, there will be 8 GPs out of 17 in Europe (47%)!

To be honest, it was boring ten years ago when nearly 75% of races were being held in Europe as it kinda defeats the object of it being a 'world championship', nad instead more like a battle of Europe plus a few non-European races for good measure.

If I had my way there would be around 22 races a season, back to the old-style rear wing and a middle finger salute to Bernie's proposed medal system!
 
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LTU932
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:45 pm



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 85):
Apart from 2006, which was their best year, they never achieved anything decent

As an own team, you're right. But as an engine supplier, they've had a very successful history. Just remember the days when McLaren got its engines from Honda, when they were highly successful with drivers such as Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost. 44 wins and a total of 699 points during that time, as well as 4 WCCs in a row speak for themselves.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 92):
I'm sure they'll come back again.

If they do, then only as an engine supplier.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
Alessandro
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:04 pm

I think the talk of unifying the engines scared them off together with the cost.
BTW any takers for Mr Button, will he replace Webber at RBR?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
scrubbsywg
Posts: 1097
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:35 am

RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:23 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 96):

only if webber isnt back in time.

otherwise, i think he will wait to see what kind of future the former honda team has, and then possibly go to STR
 
Stealthz
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:36 pm



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 97):
only if webber isnt back in time.

Agreed, but that is not expected to be a problem at this point.
Certainly can't see a performance related reason to do it.

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: Formula 1: Official Off-Season Thread #1

Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:03 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 95):
As an own team, you're right. But as an engine supplier, they've had a very successful history. Just remember the days when McLaren got its engines from Honda, when they were highly successful with drivers such as Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost. 44 wins and a total of 699 points during that time, as well as 4 WCCs in a row speak for themselves.

You did not quote my whole sentence  Wink. I said "they never achieved anything decent in 2007 and 2008".

They were of course a fantastic engine supplier for McLaren back in the 80s.

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 94):
To be honest, it was boring ten years ago when nearly 75% of races were being held in Europe as it kinda defeats the object of it being a 'world championship', nad instead more like a battle of Europe plus a few non-European races for good measure.

True, but having 50% of races outside Europe is only recent in Formula One history. Should drivers like Ascari or Fangio be "European champions" then?  Wink

As long as the "historical" GPs (like France, Monaco, Great-Britain, Italy, etc.) are still in the championship, I'll be ok  Wink. By the way, France better quickly find a solution to keep its GP. Thank God, it won't happen in Disneyland (did you hear that, Bernie?!  laughing  ). That would have been the last straw...

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 94):
a middle finger salute to Bernie's proposed medal system!

I agree Big grin
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere

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