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mariner
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:49 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 48):
We need more people like that in the military, and to try and block them out for something as silly as being gay isn't serving the country well at all.

Not to be crass and bring money into this, but there's also the cost of it:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2006/02/13/AR2006021302373.html

"The financial costs to the U.S. military for discharging and replacing gay service members under the nation's "don't ask, don't tell" policy are nearly twice what the government estimated last year, with taxpayers covering at least $364 million in associated funds over the policy's first decade, according to a University of California report scheduled for release today."

That was at 2006. I doubt it's gotten cheaper.

mariner
 
flynavy
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:20 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 43):
What I wonder is what part of the rules he didnt understand when he signed up?

These kind of statements from you are ridiculous.

He, probably just like myself, wanted to be part of something larger than self. He probably, like me, wanted to contribute something to his nation by serving in the military.

The DADT policy isn't a BAN on gays, rather it doesn't allow you to serve openly. I knew damn well what I was getting into when I was sworn-in. I knowingly and willfully made the personal sacrifices to do so.

If someone wants to give their life in the defense of this nation, so be it. Our enemies don't care who you sleep with. They see only one thing: us all as Americans, and we need everyone who wants to serve to do so. The least this country could do would be to let them live some form of normal life when off duty without fear of persecution from it.

Let us serve.

[Edited 2008-11-20 02:33:38]
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:51 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 43):
Nor would I expect you too. What I wonder is what part of the rules he didnt understand when he signed up?

That's just it, as he explained to me, "Being gay is only a single aspect of who I am."

If you go back about 3 years ago, and read my posts regarding DADT, you will see that I didn't think it was an appropriate time to repeat the policy. But when I found out that a close friend, and a person I deeply respect, was gay, I reevaluated everything I believed.

Here was everything a soldier and a pilot, should be. And he was gay. Yet that didn't define him. What defined him was his character, his loyalty, his professionalism, and his selflessness. He joined because there were a greater calling for him, one that transcended his orientation.

I was shocked to learn he had been living with the same man - his partner - for over six years. I realized how much he was forced to keep his life secret, and I felt ashamed. Ashamed for having supported a policy that kept him relegated to a life of secrecy.

You are absolutely right, he knew the rules when he joined, and he lived fastidiously to them. But that does not erase how completely wrong that policy was, and does not erase how wrong it is to force him into lead a double life. And if anything, the fact that he was willing to sacrifice more than the average soldier, in order to answer that calling, is honorable.

What's even worse, gay soldiers can play by the rules, keep their lives private -- and still risk being exposed, and getting kicked out. You make it sound like if they simply stay low-key, then there will never be a problem. But you ignore the fact that if exposed by another - they can lose everything.

It does not change the fact that we are kicking people out, for an outdated and bigoted reason.

Quoting DXing (Reply 43):
If you can find a thread where I made that statement please bring it forth. The gay life style is a choice just as the married life style is a choice as is the single life style a choice. With each choice comes a different set of restrictions.

You said:

Quoting DXing (Reply 39):
Sexual preference is that, sexual preference.

I called it an orientation, you called it a preference. A preference is a choice of freewill. As thought a person who is homosexual, chooses, or PREFERS, to be gay.

An argument, which of course, is laughable.

-UH60
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:37 pm



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 46):

Well. There's always Michael Jackson. Wink

He's neither white nor black. He's made of tofu.

Quoting DXing (Reply 39):
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Let's have a look at that for a minute. What are the first three words in the Constitution? Who appoints the President?

The Military serves to protect the civilians of the United States through defending the Constitution. The civilians elect the President, who is the CIC of the armed forces.

If the oath were to be taken for its word, then then a servicemember would not have any allegiance to the U.S., only its Constitution (a sheet of old parchment). Clearly, the oath runs deeper than that. Multiple legal precedents and opinions have upheld the view that the U.S. Armed Forces serve the United States, although they do not take orders from any civilian except for one: the President.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 51):

He, probably just like myself, wanted to be part of something larger than self. He probably, like me, wanted to contribute something to his nation by serving in the military.

It's interesting, Flynavy. You and I have different views on this issue. I have a graduate degree in molecular biology with research experience in bacterial genetics. I also am a physician. I'm also a competitive swimmer and quite physically fit. Thus, on several occasions I have attracted the attention of military recruiters who have made many attractive offers to me to have me serve as a medical officer. The military can get pretty aggressive about recruiting medical students. Interestingly, the CDC has also recruited me, and joining the CDC requires that I become a commissioned officer, I think under the USN, but I'm not quite sure.

(And then there was one rather dodgy incident in which I had an odd feeling that I was being recruited to help develop biological weapons, but that was just a gut feeling and I wouldn't put too much stock into it. The recruiter just seemed very interested in the fact that I had worked on various aspects of antibiotic resistance in E. coli and he seemed a little...cloak-and-dagger.)

In all cases, I have declined these offers because I am gay and I have told the recruiters that I am unqualified to serve because of my sexual orientation. On some occasions, they thanked me very much, expressed their regret that I disclosed this, and then left. On other occasions, I have been informed that arrangements could be made to get around DADT as long as I remained discreet. I found it rather shocking that this supposedly hard-and-fast regulation could be pushed aside if the Navy found it convenient.

My view is that until I feel that the U.S. and its armed forces are willing to treat me as a full citizen, that I will reserve my services and skills for civilian patients. My view is that if you want to hire me, you get the whole package, including my sexual orientation. I keep it a non-issue at work, but I am open about it.

As for you, Flynavy, I respect your commitment to do what you did. I have many gay friends who have served or are serving in the military and I think that their decision is a brave one, since they have more to fear than their heterosexual counterparts.

On the day that LGBT Americans are granted full rights of citizenship (marriage and protection from discrimination in both civilian and military life) then my services will be at the disposal of the Armed Forces. But not one minute sooner.
 
flynavy
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:50 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 53):
As for you, Flynavy, I respect your commitment to do what you did.

Call me Chris. And thank you for your the kind words. I respect your decision to abstain from military service in the interim. It is a volunteer force, after all. I don't think any less of you because of it.

Back in 2002 when I enlisted, I felt it was the right thing to do. I sacrificed a lot in doing so, more than I would be willing to disclose on an open forum such as this.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:17 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 43):
If you can find a thread where I made that statement please bring it forth. The gay life style is a choice just as the married life style is a choice as is the single life style a choice. With each choice comes a different set of restrictions.

This brand of thinking, thankfully, will soon be obsolete.
 
dxing
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:50 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 52):
Quoting DXing (Reply 39):
Sexual preference is that, sexual preference.

I called it an orientation, you called it a preference. A preference is a choice of freewill. As thought a person who is homosexual, chooses, or PREFERS, to be gay.

An argument, which of course, is laughable.

I think you are nit picking at the use and meaning of my words their my friend as is Doc when he says:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 53):
The Military serves to protect the civilians of the United States through defending the Constitution. The civilians elect the President, who is the CIC of the armed forces.

But I will grant him his leave that in the long run the military is there to serve the interests of the United States even though the oath does not specifically say that. When I use the term prefers I do not discount orientation and I have used both interchangeably before. I am orientated towards women but if I so chose to I could prefer to spend my time with a man. So people can choose, we do have free will, but I don't buy that argument that gays could just simply "choose" to live straight either.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 53):
If the oath were to be taken for its word, then then a servicemember would not have any allegiance to the U.S., only its Constitution (a sheet of old parchment).

The Constitution is hardly just a sheet of old parchment. The oath is taken to defend the ideals laid down in the words and thoughts on that sheet of old parchment.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 55):
This brand of thinking, thankfully, will soon be obsolete.

I don't see how since they are basic truths. Every life style brings with it its own set of benefits and restrictions. I as a married man can't just up and leave my wife with no penalty. A single man can't legally claim his girlfriend on his taxes without penalty. Just two examples.
 
flynavy
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:09 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 56):
The oath is taken to defend the ideals laid down in the words and thoughts on that sheet of old parchment.

No kidding. We are not debating the merits of the Constitution. We're talking about the DADT policy.

Quoting DXing (Reply 56):
I don't see how since they are basic truths.

 redflag  Of course you don't see how. Why? Because it suits your argument. And, tell us, did you ever make a choice to be straight?
 
mt99
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:58 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 56):
I am orientated towards women but if I so chose to I could prefer to spend my time with a man.

Prove it then. Go out and date men for a month. After, come back and tell us about your choice.

Wouldnt that make a great documentary (or a Porno): "Heterosexual on a mission to prove that homosexuality is a choice, chooses to date men for a month"

[Edited 2008-11-20 09:08:55]
 
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seb146
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:12 pm



Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 24):
it was just like any other job as it depends on your boss and if no one in your group complains it's a non issue. It's when someone else or a superior makes it an issue.

15 years ago (give or take) I was fired from Subway. My boss said I was not working well; not doing what I was supposed to be doing. The real reason? I am gay and my best friend (also gay) would come in sometimes and talk with me. We never did anything other than talk. Even outside of work. The only ones who cared were my superiors. The customers didn't notice. My co-workers didn't care. I was working at the radio station, too. Oddly, I never got fired from there. Why?

I never made it an issue. It was no one's business what happened on our down-time. Some of my co-workers were using drugs on their down-time and everyone knew it. But, because I was thinking of dating another man, that was reason enough to be fired.

All that being said: I will never understand two things:

1. If the military is defending the rights of EVERY American, wouldn't that include gays as well?
2. If soldiers top priority is to keep themselves alive for the freedom of ALL Americans everywhere, why does it matter who they love on their down-time?

If DADT continues to be enforces, why not enforce it the whole way? Don't tell your CO if you are a man dating a woman. Don't tell your CO if you are a woman dating a man. If you do, you will be discharged. Equal protection, right? That sounds fair. Besides, who, in their daily life goes around saying "Hi! I am straight/gay. My name is..."?
 
flynavy
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:16 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 59):
If the military is defending the rights of EVERY American, wouldn't that include gays as well?

Maybe we gays don't belong to the right-wings "real America"? That would be my guess.  Wink
 
dxing
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:39 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 57):
No kidding. We are not debating the merits of the Constitution. We're talking about the DADT policy.

Well back up and read the previous posts and if you still want to make a comment how about a constructive one?

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 57):
Of course you don't see how. Why? Because it suits your argument

Then tell me what life style does not come with restrictions and benefits then? You seem to have troublearguing that point for some reason.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 57):
And, tell us, did you ever make a choice to be straight?

Yep, first time I had sex with a girl and that felt right.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 58):
Prove it then. Go out and date men for a month. After, come back and tell us about your choice.

So in order to prove that I'm not a bank robber I have to go out and rob a bank? Now that is some different kind of logic.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 58):
Wouldnt that make a great documentary (or a Porno): "Heterosexual on a mission to prove that homosexuality is a choice, chooses to date men for a month"

Of course here we go with the can't argue the merits so we'll just make up ridiculous challanges.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 59):
1. If the military is defending the rights of EVERY American, wouldn't that include gays as well?

I guess it would also include serial killer death row inmates since if they were born in this country they are Americans as well. Want to continue to state the obvious?
 
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mariner
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:46 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 61):
Yep, first time I had sex with a girl and that felt right.

You needed to do it to know you were attracted to women?

I didn't need to do it to know I was attracted to men. I wasn't capable of doing it when I knew.

mariner
 
ual777
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:02 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 36):

I also have no problem with women serving in combat, hell for the most part, they already do! As long as they meet the physical requirements, then more power to them.

I have flown into combat on numerous occasions with females. I have had female PICs, and as a PIC myself, I have had female PIs. If I did not have confidence in their abilities, I would not have gotten into that cockpit.

I would disagree on SF, Force Recon, and infantry. However for positions like ARTY, armor, motor-t, etc etc. I have no issue with it.

The "grunts" are in a totally different world.
 
mt99
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:03 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 61):
Yep, first time I had sex with a girl and that felt right.

I sure hope you were married. Sex outside marriage is sin.

How do you know whats "right". Try it with a guy then tell us. Then you can compare.

Gay relationships are more than just sex. I hope you know that.

Quoting DXing (Reply 61):
So in order to prove that I'm not a bank robber I have to go out and rob a bank? Now that is some different kind of logic.

Ahhh so the fact that you would not even consider robbing a bank to prove a point, means that inherently (or naturally) you are not a thief. Wouldn't the same logic apply to sexuality?

Quoting DXing (Reply 61):
Of course here we go with the can't argue the merits so we'll just make up ridiculous challanges.

Why ridiculous? It gives you a chance to prove your point once and for all. Make an earnest choice to be gay for a month. Report back, then we promise to accepts your premise.

Any one else joins me in challenging our friend?
 
flynavy
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:08 pm

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 63):
The "grunts" are in a totally different world.

Strange. I know quite a few gay infantry who are just as good at their jobs as their straight comrades in arms.

[Edited 2008-11-20 10:19:27]
 
dxing
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:22 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 62):
I didn't need to do it to know I was attracted to men. I wasn't capable of doing it when I knew.

Well lets call it conformation then.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 63):
The "grunts" are in a totally different world.

I would disagree. I served as an Airborne Ranger and Ranger Instructor. I met several female college ROTC students during my Instructor period that probably had a better grasp of fire and manuver as well as leadership than some of their male counterparts. They were fully capable of humping the gear as well.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 64):
I sure hope you were married. Sex outside marriage is sin.

And if I were a truly religious person that might bother me. Since I am not, it doesn't.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 64):
How do you know whats "right". Try it with a guy then tell us. Then you can compare.

Again, the ridiculous challange. If you know anything about me you know that I am and have been married for a long time. To please you I am to give that up? I hate to bruise what appears to be a tender ego but you're not that important.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 64):
Gay relationships are more than just sex. I hope you know that.

But in the same regard you cannot discount the sexual part of the relationship either.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 64):
Wouldn't the same logic apply to sexuality?

Sure and where you are getting the notion that I feel that gays "choose" to be gay is beyond me. Perhaps you should back up a bit and read reply 56.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 64):
Any one else joins me in challenging our friend?

Can't stand on your own two feet? You have yet to discredit that I could choose if I wanted to other than to toss out a ridiculous challange based on where I am in life. Are you saying now that a gay person could never choose to live as straight person? I think there are plenty of examples in the public domain that would refute that.
 
mt99
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:39 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 66):

Sure and where you are getting the notion that I feel that gays "choose" to be gay is beyond me. Perhaps you should back up a bit and read reply 56.

Please.. stop trying to have it both ways. ( no pun intended)

Quoting DXing (Reply 66):
Again, the ridiculous challange. If you know anything about me you know that I am and have been married for a long time. To please you I am to give that up?

Out of respect for your wife...let me change the question then: Would you have done it before you where married? Would you have considered to be gay for month?

Quoting DXing (Reply 66):
Are you saying now that a gay person could never choose to live as straight person? I think there are plenty of examples in the public domain that would refute that.

Not a complete life. Just ask Sen. Larry Craig about his "choices"...
 
TSS
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:42 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 59):
If DADT continues to be enforces, why not enforce it the whole way? Don't tell your CO if you are a man dating a woman. Don't tell your CO if you are a woman dating a man. If you do, you will be discharged. Equal protection, right? That sounds fair.

Possibly even eliminate the pay raises and other benefits associated with getting married?

I'm just sayin'...
 
dxing
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:45 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 67):
Would you have considered to be gay for month?

Sure, I had gay friends back then and we were close, and interestingly enough we had the same arguments over the exact same things. I could have seen myself in that life style, we got along very well, but fate intervened and I ended up moving a thousand miles away from them.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 67):
Not a complete life. Just ask Sen. Larry Craig about his "choices"...

Or the former Gov. of New Jersey James McGreevy.
 
mt99
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:53 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 69):
Or the former Gov. of New Jersey James McGreevy.

Exactly. Sad sad ending for everyone involved..

Quoting DXing (Reply 69):
I could have seen myself in that life style, we got along very well, but fate intervened and I ended up moving a thousand miles away from them.

Ahh - i see.. hmm. .i can now understand better where are coming from.. interesting... Around what year was this if you don't mind me asking...
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:00 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 57):
did you ever make a choice to be straight?

I most certainly never chose to be straight. It just happens to be this way. I never pondered the question at length, wondering if I could decide to become bi-sexual or homosexual. I am simply attracted to women, without any conscious thought behind my attraction, and that's pretty much the end of it.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 64):
How do you know whats "right".

I think he meant it in the sense that it felt right for him, because he is attracted to women.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 67):
Would you have considered to be gay for month?

That's the thing - it would not cross my mind to try because I simply have no attraction for it. For the sake of exercise I have of course pictured myself with a man but, well, the thought is not exactly arousing for me...  silly 
 
mt99
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:09 pm



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 71):
That's the thing - it would not cross my mind to try because I simply have no attraction for it. For the sake of exercise I have of course pictured myself with a man but, well, the thought is not exactly arousing for me... silly

Thank you ..My point exactly!
 
dxing
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:43 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 70):
Around what year was this if you don't mind me asking...

In the early 80's in New Orleans.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 71):
For the sake of exercise I have of course pictured myself with a man but, well, the thought is not exactly arousing for me...

I've had the same thoughts of being with an obese woman as well as a stick woman. Neither are arousing for me. There is a lot to sexual preference.
 
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seb146
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:29 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 61):
I guess it would also include serial killer death row inmates since if they were born in this country they are Americans as well. Want to continue to state the obvious?

Now, you are just being silly. A death row inmate is quite different than Susie Domestic. The death row inmate has very few (if any) rights.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 62):
Quoting DXing (Reply 61):
Yep, first time I had sex with a girl and that felt right.

You needed to do it to know you were attracted to women?

I didn't need to do it to know I was attracted to men. I wasn't capable of doing it when I knew.

mariner

Nicely put.

People in the military, they follow orders from their CO, if I am not mistaken. What difference does it make who they are dating or have a legal agreement with back home? Why should a man recieve any more money for having a wife when another man has a male partner but gets less money for a stable relationship? Symantics?
 
dxing
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:48 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 74):
The death row inmate has very few (if any) rights.

But correct me if I am wrong, you said:

Quoting DXing (Reply 61):
Quoting Seb146 (Reply 59):
1. If the military is defending the rights of EVERY American, wouldn't that include gays as well?

Which would include death row prisoners as well since even though incarcerated are still Americans are they not?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 74):
What difference does it make who they are dating or have a legal agreement with back home?

Again, correct me if I am wrong but aren't their companies and government agencies here in the United States that have policies on dating inter/intra office or inside the company?
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:00 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 75):

All you're doing is denigrating this thread, by throwing absurd examples, and debating semantics with people. And while I understand that it's easier to do so, then to face the human side of this issue... I don't think we need this silly argument over death row inmates.  Yeah sure

-UH60
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:14 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 62):

You needed to do it to know you were attracted to women?

I didn't need to do it to know I was attracted to men. I wasn't capable of doing it when I knew.

I did have sex with women. Several of them. I was 16 the first time. I chose to be straight. And it felt like a duty, a chore, and not anything like the mind-blowing experience my friends said it was. Got down to the point where I dreaded sex.

First time I did it with a man, it was everything it was supposed to be. Amazing, mind-blowing, fist-pounding, moaning, groaning and all the rest.

I wish it was that way with women for me. Would mean that I wouldn't have to go through all this absurd discrimination. Would mean that by now I'd probably be married and a father, which is all I ever wanted to be. But it's not that way. So no, it's not a choice.

Quoting DXing (Reply 75):

Again, correct me if I am wrong but aren't their companies and government agencies here in the United States that have policies on dating inter/intra office or inside the company?

What does that have to do with your partner back home?
 
Mir
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:23 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 75):
Which would include death row prisoners as well since even though incarcerated are still Americans are they not?

Yes. If push came to shove, the military would be forced to defend those inmates.

Now what the hell does that have to do with gays in the military? Nothing at all. I'm going to assume that you're not implying that gay people have the same societal worth as death row inmates, but that's how it comes across.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 76):
All you're doing is denigrating this thread, by throwing absurd examples, and debating semantics with people.

 checkmark  If you want to propose a legitimate argument for why gays should not be allowed to serve openly, do so. But all I've seen so far is just endless "it's against the rules for them to serve" speeches, which dont' say anything about the question at hand, which is whether the rules should change.

-Mir
 
ADXMatt
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RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:36 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 43):
If the rules are changed I abide by the new rules.

Are you for or against the rules changing. Hypothetically how would you vote if you had the choice?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 59):
Don't tell your CO if you are a woman dating a man. If you do, you will be discharged. Equal protection, right? That sounds fair. Besides, who, in their daily life goes around saying "Hi! I am straight/gay. My name is..."?

People do all the time, but not with those exact words. I know so and so is straight as he talks about his wife and kids at the water cooler or at lunch, or with the pictures of his family on the desk.

With DADT you either have to lie and change genders of who you talk about or apear to have no life.


DXing works fine next to gay co-workers. He treats everyone at work with respect. I don't know what goes on at his home or at the bar but that is not my business. Just as people in the private sector work fine with gay/lesbians and the military is already working alongside them the policy needs to go away. I know for me after coming out I was healthier and was able to live and work better not having to hide and not let anyone find out.


As far as woman and transgendered people are concerned, If they are qualified and capable of doing the job then let them.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:37 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 76):
All you're doing is denigrating this thread, by throwing absurd examples, and debating semantics with people

As I've said before, I give back what i am getting. There are examples above.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 77):
What does that have to do with your partner back home?

I was refering to inside the military. As in "dating".

Quoting Mir (Reply 78):
If you want to propose a legitimate argument for why gays should not be allowed to serve openly, do so. But all I've seen so far is just endless "it's against the rules for them to serve" speeches, which dont' say anything about the question at hand, which is whether the rules should change.

And all I've seen here are the same arguments that have been put forth for years and are still wanting, namely, "just because we say we should". As I've said there are restrictions on every type of life style. Right now DADT is the policy. If it changes, which I don't think it is going to do given the other politics that the President-elect seems to be putting a priority on, then that will be the new rule and I'll be just as content as I am now. I don't think it's a good idea but I am just one in a nation of many. If I am not entitled to voice my opinion simply because some people find it grating, tough. It works both ways and with that I'll bid adue so you can have a one way thread which seems to be the focus and intent of several members. Enjoy!
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:41 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 80):
As I've said before, I give back what i am getting. There are examples above.

Come'on. You're like, what, twice my age? Do I really need to spell it out?

Just because you get absurd arguments, does not mean you need to spew out your own. Be the better person, the better debater, the better intellect.

When you entertain silly arguments with your own immature arguments, all you do is bring down the debate, putting it on a path where it will become so convoluted that it gets locked. I dunno... maybe that's your intent?

-UH60
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:02 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 6):
As for Obama, I believe that he will remember the problems Clinton had with this issue and he will avoid it for a while.

I agree, and agree with UH60 on the timetable:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
So I honestly don't think the policy will be repealed for at least another two years.

I agree. I think he wants to consolidate his tenure in the White House first-and really deal with the more serious issues before the nation right now. That isn't the over-riding issue of the day.

But I do think it's time the brass in the military realize that they simply look foolish with this old homophobia. It's outdated, and it does keep out-and throw out-some very fine people in the military for no good reason.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:26 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 82):
I think he wants to consolidate his tenure in the White House first-and really deal with the more serious issues before the nation right now. That isn't the over-riding issue of the day.

I don't think Obama will push for the repeal of DADT. I think it'll have to work its way up within the military to the point where it's the Joint Chiefs telling Obama "we think we should repeal this" and him saying "ok, let's do it". That's probably the best way of going about this.

And it does seem to be working its way up through the military, so I would look for a repeal in the second half of Obama's term.

-Mir
 
Ken777
Posts: 10203
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:14 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
"The army came out in style this weekend when it launched a recruitment drive aimed at tempting more gays, lesbians, transvestites and even transsexuals into the ranks.

Good on the Brits. The only question I have is if the transvestites are allowed to choose which uniform they wear.

Quoting DXing (Reply 29):
Why not let women serve in combat units on the front line or in the Special Forces?

Women are already serving in combat situations. I can't think of anything more terrifying in combat than a Special Forces gal with a serious case of PMS.
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4323
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:44 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 84):
transvestites

Don't you mean transexuals? Transvestites are those (men and women) who dress is the clothing of the opposite sex.

Like this quote from "To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything, Julie Newmar":

"When a straight man puts on a dress and gets his sexual kicks he
is a transvestite. When a man is a woman trapped in a man's body
and he gets the surgery, he is a transsexual. When a gay man has
way too much fashion sense for one gender, he is a drag queen."

[Edited 2008-11-20 21:45:48]
 
LH423
Posts: 5924
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:42 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 12):
I wonder what that survey would show if it were taken only within the military? Those are the people who will have to deal with the policy, not some societal idealist walking the streets of New York.

As has said, if they have a problem with it, they are free to see their way out. Again, it's a two-way street.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 14):
All he has to do is not enforce it. He is Commander in Chief after all.

I recall something being said on the news about part of the compromise that brought about DADT is that Congress now has control over this issue. That while ultimately the President alone can decide whether to repeal it or not, it must first be permitted by Congress.

In fact, here's the CNN article I was referring to: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/...nt.tell/index.html?iref=newssearch

Quoting DXing (Reply 61):
So in order to prove that I'm not a bank robber I have to go out and rob a bank?

Quite simply, yeah. To continue using your parable, anyone can SAY they're a bank robber but never having committed an act to that effect means that what you say is nothing more than words. With this, I'm not saying you have to go out and lay the first man you see, but recognizing that there is also more to attraction than just getting it up and going through the motions. I mean, I'm fairly certain that I could theoretically have sex with a woman. I could just close my eyes and do it and that would be that. In fact, I did when I was 16. However, I would never want to since I'm just not that way. For as long as I could remember, that's just the way I felt.

Quoting DXing (Reply 80):

And all I've seen here are the same arguments that have been put forth for years and are still wanting, namely, "just because we say we should".

OK. Well, what about the argument set forth earlier that it cost American tax payers over $300 million last year because of DADT? Or how about the fact that it unequal? Why are straight men and women allowed to talk about their sexual conquests or boy/girlfriends or have their wives and children live with them on base, but a gay or lesbian cannot? Your right, forget the argument that we should "just because". I can think of a hundred more compelling reasons before "just because".

LH423
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:26 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 65):

Strange. I know quite a few gay infantry who are just as good at their jobs as their straight comrades in arms.

I was referring to females.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:32 am

I still dont understand why someone would want to risk their lives to defend a country that doesnt want to defend them ?
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:38 am



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 88):
I still dont understand why someone would want to risk their lives to defend a country that doesnt want to defend them ?

The country DOES want to defend them. The issue is state's rights and civil unions vs. marriage.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22286
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:27 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 80):

I was refering to inside the military. As in "dating".

What has that to do with DADT? I don't know if the military has an anti-fraternization policy, but it would seem to me that it might be a good idea.
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:43 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 90):
I don't know if the military has an anti-fraternization policy, but it would seem to me that it might be a good idea.

It does. Fraternization is a violation Article 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:01 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 80):
I was refering to inside the military. As in "dating".

Just because you are gay and in the military does not mean that your partner must also be gay and in the military.

-Mir
 
1stfl94
Posts: 1082
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:33 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:12 pm

I think there will be quite a big review of the Armed Forces once they are out of Iraq at least and possibly Afghanistan. This would be the chance to get DADT repealed. Besides if your in a combat situation are you really going to care about who the person next to you is sleeping with
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24174
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:19 pm



Quoting UAL777 (Reply 89):
The country DOES want to defend them. The issue is state's rights and civil unions vs. marriage.

Yes, that is one issue. There is also the issue of some states that allow people to be denied housing or employment because of sexual orientation; because they love someone of the same gender. I read somewhere that all gays are being asked to call in gay (instead of sick) sometime in December in protest of the states that do not allow equal protection under the law.

As far as DADT:

Quoting LH423 (Reply 86):
Why are straight men and women allowed to talk about their sexual conquests or boy/girlfriends or have their wives and children live with them on base, but a gay or lesbian cannot?

Exactly. What goes on off base between consenting adults is perfectly fine unless a person is gay. Then, that is grounds for discharge. That does not sound like equal protection to me.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:34 pm

My opposition on gays in the military goes back to the infamous Tailhook scandal some years ago, where members of the Navy were known to have mistreated women who were at the convention, and the brass stonewalled the investigation, and just put it down as "boys will be boys". And it was the same brass who upheld this idiotic ban on gays, most who have served more honorably than those idiots at Tailhook.

It is, still, a double-standard, int it has to go away. I think it will, more than halfway through Obama's first term.
 
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mariner
Topic Author
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:51 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 95):
It is, still, a double-standard, int it has to go away. I think it will, more than halfway through Obama's first term.

The Washington Post agrees with you and the others who have given that sort of time frame:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...elay-repeal-of-dont-ask-dont-tell/

"President-elect Barack Obama will not move for months, and perhaps not until 2010, to ask Congress to end the military's decades-old ban on open homosexuals in the ranks, two people who have advised the Obama transition team on this issue say.

Repealing the ban was an Obama campaign promise. However, Mr. Obama first wants to confer with the Joint Chiefs of Staff and his new political appointees at the Pentagon to reach a consensus and then present legislation to Congress, the advisers said."


mariner
 
cgnnrw
Posts: 1073
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 3:11 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:38 pm

I realize I'm late in joing this debate but just wanted to take a few minutes to voice my opinion on the DADT issue.

I agree it needs to go however I think it would be best not to make such a big deal getting it done. As some posters already mentioned Pres-elect Obama will have sooooo much on his plate after he takes office nobody should expect solutions to any of the many problems right away.

What Obama can do is make it clear to the military higher-ups that the DADT policy shouldn't be actively pursured. Let this trickle down the ranks and work itself out for a while. Then after having been "defacto" overturned the powers higher up can do the necessary legislation repealing it. No need for the gay and lesbian community to hold press conferences or parties. A simple "thanks" and getting back to business would be sufficient.

I remember when I was living in DC back in the early 90s I would see quite a few military guys in the numerous gay bars/clubs in SE. (usually out of uniform  Wink ).
They weren't hiding the fact they were going to a gay establishment either, they simply wanted to go out have some fun and if they got lucky well even better.  Wow!

Now to the issue of "if your gay then don't join". Well I don't think its that easy. Many recruits are only 18-19 years old when the join the military and whether you like it or not, not all are 100% clear on their sexuality. I didn't date much in high school, wasn't really interested in girls really but never gave much thought to being gay. I finally realized it when I was 20 that I was gay. Had I joined the military right after high school or during college I would have been in the same predictment many gay military personel now find themselves.

So there you have my  twocents 
 
Ken777
Posts: 10203
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:03 am



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 85):
"When a straight man puts on a dress and gets his sexual kicks he is a transvestite.

Which is why I mentioned being able to choose which uniform they want to wear. Should have put a  Smile in there somewhere.
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4323
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Obama And Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:09 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 98):
Which is why I mentioned being able to choose which uniform they want to wear. Should have put a in there somewhere.

Being a transvestite has nothing to so with being straight or gay, though. Just a desire to cross dress. Look at Klinger's character in M*A*S*H. It never got him his section 8.

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