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UAXDXer
Posts: 700
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:36 pm

RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:04 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 47):
I could go on, but doubt I'd get anywhere with you.

Address the point at hand! The LDS church has faced an enormous amount backlash over its position on Prop 8. The Senate Majority leader is democrat and he is also LDS. Why aren't gays protesting in front of his house and office, why are they not boycotting the state of Navada?

Seems it's way too convenient to leave out the little known fact about Mr. Reid.

Since we are posting links:

- Harry Reid
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
flynavy
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:09 am



Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 50):
Why aren't gays protesting in front of his house and office, why are they not boycotting the state of Navada?

Okay. I'll freakin' address it.

It might be due to the fact that Prop 8 was passed in CALIFORNIA, and the fact that Senator Reid is from NEVADA - you know, the state with legalized prostituion? I wonder which one of LAXintl's Judeo Christian values legitimized that?

But hey, at least we can agree that the LDS church played a major role in getting Prop 8 passed. BUT WAIT! Back in the Prop 8 threads, it wasn't the fault of the LDS church, but the fault of the African American vote!

You people can't pick one side of any argument. How pathetic, and yet, how entertaining.

 eyepopping   faint   Yeah sure
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LAXintl
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:16 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 49):
YOUR values, YOUR interpretation of the law, and the social norms you think everyone ELSE should be forced to live under are based around Judeo Christian teachings that YOU were brought up with.

No sir - you care to explain many of our laws? Are they based on Islam, or Buddhism?

While the Pilgrims were fleeing religious persecution, the society they founded and its rules and social norms very came from Christian beliefs. The base for most laws in this country were based on English common law - which had its place from the Church.

So as much as you might want to disassociate the fact that religion has played a major role in the history of American society - the fact remains that Judeo Christian teachings have been and continue to be the basis for our laws and social understandings.

Remember I'm not telling you to believe in religion or not. I know you dont. However you still live in a society that has its basic social principles derived from one.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
UAXDXer
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:17 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 51):
It might be due to the fact that Prop 8 was passed in CALIFORNIA, and the fact that Senator Reid is from NEVADA -

Didn't stop the protest in Utah!

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 51):
You people can't pick one side of any argument. How pathetic, and yet, how entertaining.

Ditto
 Yeah sure
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Tugger
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:20 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 46):
But our nations base values, its laws, and social norms like it or not are very much enshrined around Judeo Christianity teachings. Not Islam, Buddhism, or atheist views.

Let's take a look at our country's founding fathers values. While "based" might be valid, the freedom to believe differently and move the "base" was also a core value. Would they have been attacked mercilessly by the religious right if they ran today? Would the country be poorer for it if they these men had not been closely involved?
(sorry about the kinda crappy table)
U.S. Presidents

Actions: Communion, Confirmation, Church Attendance, Vocabulary
- - - - - - - - - - - -| Communion - - | Confirmation - | Attendance - | Vocabulary
Washington- - - | No - - - - - - - - -| No - - - - - - - - | Yes - - - - - - -| Mostly Deist
Adams, John- - | not applicable -| not applicable | Yes - - - - - - -| Both
Jefferson- - - - - | No - - - - - - - - -| No - - - - - - - - | Yes - - - - - - - | Deist
Madison - - - - - | No - - - - - - - - -| No - - - - - - - - | Yes - - - - - - -| Deist
Monroe - - - - - - | No - - - - - - - - | No - - - - - - - - | Yes - - - - - - - | Mostly Deist
Franklin - - - - - -| No - - - - - - - - | No - - - - - - - - -| Yes - - - - - - -| Deist
Paine, Thomas -| No - - - - - - - - | No - - - - - - - - -| No - - - - - - - -| Deist
Adams, Samuel | not applicable | not applicable -| Yes - - - - - - -| Orthodox


Beliefs: Resurrection, Christ-Divinity, Trinity, Belief in Miracles
- - - - - - - - - - - -| Resurrection -| Christ-Divinity -| Trinity - | Miracles
Washington - - - | ? - - - - - - - - -| ? - - - - - - - - - - | ? - - - - -| ?
Adams, John - - | Yes - - - - - - -| Yes - - - - - - - - | No - - - -| Yes
Jefferson - - - - - | No - - - - - - - -| No - - - - - - - - - | No - - - -| No
Madison - - - - - -| ? - - - - - - - - -| ? - - - - - - - - - - | No - - - -| ?
Monroe - - - - - - -| ? - - - - - - - - -| ? - - - - - - - - - - | ? - - - - -| ?
Franklin - - - - - - | No - - - - - - - -| No - - - - - - - - - | No - - - | ?
Paine, Thomas -| No - - - - - - - - | No - - - - - - - - - | No - - - | No
Adams, Samuel | Yes - - - - - - - | -Yes - - - - - - - -| Yes - - | Yes

Quote:
Given what we currently know, all of the first five presidents and most, if not all, of the Founding Fathers believed in God. Atheism was mostly unknown among the writers of Constitution and was very rare among those of European descent in the 18th- Century. However, it is not always easy to ascribe a particular denomination to an individual. Because of the rural nature of early America, many in colonial times chose churches based on convenience. Where they went to church regularly may not be a perfect indicator of what faith they considered themselves. Thomas Jefferson, for example, was raised Episcopalian, donated a significant amount of money to building Episcopalian churches, attended a Episcopalian church, and yet is not considered an orthodox Episcopalian by any historian of note. His views would be considered heretical by today's orthodox standards.
.....
George Washington: Since he attended an Anglican church fairly regularly, some historians spend a great deal of time making Washington's God a personal one (in order to separate it from the impersonal god of Deism). I think the safest definition is to say Washington was a Christian with Deistic tendencies or a Deist with a very Christian God and Christian-friendly attitude.
....
John Adams: Adams was, simply put, a Unitarian. Unitarianism, however, needs some context in the colonial period. The theology of Unitarianism is far removed from Anglican orthodoxy. It did not believe in the Holy Trinity and was opposed to the priests and bishops of Anglican and Roman Catholic churches. Unitarianism was the most liberal arm of Calvinism %u2013 which spawned Puritans, Baptists, and Presbyterians %u2013 but was clearly outside their beliefs in many ways. Since like all Calvinist religions it had no priesthood, there was no "sacramental" communion.
....

Thomas Jefferson: Jefferson was, by most accounts, a Deist. He is sometimes referred to less commonly as a Unitarian, and even occasionally an Anglican. Jefferson did remain loyal to his AnglicanEpiscopal upbringing and had an Episcopal minister at his bedside before he died. He believed in the moral leadership of Christ but was highly critical of Christianity in general. Jefferson did not believe in the miracles of the Bible, the virgin birth, the resurrection, or the divinity of Christ. Those beliefs alone would make him decidedly non-Anglican by today's standards.
....

James Madison: He was known to use a Deistic vocabulary in his writings and speeches, and his references about the Holy Trinity mirror Jefferson%u2019s almost identically %u2013 %u201Cmindless jargon%u201D as he referred to it. Madison, perhaps more than any other president, believed strongly on the separation of church and state and was influential in his writings on the subject.
....

James Monroe: There are a few things of note concerning his beliefs. Madison was never Confirmed even though he was Episcopalian. He used Deistic vocabulary whenever possible, and he was an established Freemason. It has also been quoted that Monroe once went to a visiting church with a friend only to discover an intense Calvinist preacher who %u201Ctook him by surprise%u201D much to the chagrin of his Unitarian friend.

It appears Monroe had nothing in his background to suggest any orthodox Christian values, and what few snippets there are suggests a UnitarianDeistic quality.
....
Benjamin Franklin: Franklin is clearly a Deist in most of his views and confesses as much in his writings. Unlike Deists like Thomas Paine or Ethan Allen, however, Franklin was pro-Christian. He attended church and supported churches monetarily. He believed religion played a positive role in society, and the Bible was a strong moral guide. Like most Deists, he questioned the Trinity and the resurrection, and was skeptical of the miracles of Jesus. Most of Franklin%u2019s thoughts on religion were not professed openly, but were generally inferred from the sheer volume of his philosophical writings and his satirical comments on religion.
....
Samuel Adams: Adams played a very important role in the founding of this country. He may have been a prime instigator in both the Boston Massacre and the Boston Tea Party. He served on the Continental Congress from 1774-1781. He was entirely orthodox in his beliefs and was raised in a Puritan household. He worshipped daily and led prayer before every meal. He was against Freemasonry.

Adams was also respected by nearly everyone, and not just because of his leadership in congress. Even the anti-Christian Thomas Paine spoke to him with a certain respect. There was nothing phony about Adams, and his piety in all matters did not go unnoticed. He could "walk the walk" as they say.

http://www.earlyamericanhistory.net/founding_fathers.htm

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:23 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 2):
Just how have these evil folks effected your life ? Is it best that all opposition just goes away in your opinion ?

What are you dieing to do in life that the religious right has effected so drastically ?

...amused us with the inability to differentiate "effected" vs "affected", spell "dying", or pronounce "nuclear"?

My bad, couldn't resist 

Quoting RSWA330 (Reply 37):
then Huckabee wouldn't have been as successful as he was

...which in the grand scheme of things, amounted to what, a block-filler show on FoxNews that practically no one watches?

Quoting RSWA330 (Reply 37):
Out of curiosity, why are the religious-right so feared?

...same reason Muslims in America are.
Or does "John SIDNEY! McCain" just not have the same ring to it?  

Quoting RSWA330 (Reply 37):
the traditional form of marriage?

Which is what exactly?
...because if you're actually so naive as to believe that it's 1 adult man + 1 adult woman, in a mutally-concented monogamous relationship; as promoted by neo"C"onservative fearmongering--- then your ignorance of history makes Palin's, well, pale.


[Edited 2008-11-22 00:28:03]
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flynavy
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:35 am

Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 53):
Didn't stop the protest in Utah!

Or Florida, or Michigan, or Alaska, or New York, or Washington, or Maine, or Delaware. What is your flippin' point? Are you advocating attacking Senator Reid because of his religious views? This whole guilt-by-association nonsense is getting old, if not fascinating.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 52):
Remember I'm not telling you to believe in religion or not.

I certainly believe in religion. I also believe that religion has been used to start countless wars and millions, if not billions of people have been killed because of it since the dawn of time.

For the record, I'm not an atheist, but an agnostic. But, thankfully, I'm not on topic here.

Religion, as I have found, is inherently and utterly dangerous part of our society, and has been for thousands of years. Your assertion that our country is based on Christianity isn't accurate. Involving religion in politics and governance sets us all on a path towards failure, if not creating an America that looks nothing like the one we enjoy today.

Freedom of, or freedom from (depending on your beliefs, or lack thereof), was important enough for the founding fathers so much that they felt it necessary to include in in the Constitution. What Judeo Christian value did they use to legitimize that?

[Edited 2008-11-22 00:37:45]
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flynavy
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:37 am



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 55):
...amused us with the inability to differentiate "effected" vs "affected", spell "dying", or pronounce "nuclear"? My bad, couldn't resist

You elitist! How dare you correct a Republican's spelling?!  rotfl 
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
UAXDXer
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:51 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 51):
It might be due to the fact that Prop 8 was passed in CALIFORNIA, and the fact that Senator Reid is from NEVADA



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 56):
Or Florida, or Michigan, or Alaska, or New York, or Washington, or Maine, or Delaware. What is your flippin' point? Are you advocating attacking Senator Reid because of his religious views?

Not at all... but prop 8 protest happened at mormon churches in Utah. Harry Reid is a mormon, do you see the correlation yet?
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
flynavy
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:57 am



Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 58):
Harry Reid is a mormon, do you see the correlation yet?

Of course I see the correlation. But I don't see your point. I'd argue it really isn't relevant to the topic at hand.

Is it slightly ironic that Harry Reid's church financed the advertising that ultimately helped get Prop 8 passed, given the fact that he's a Democrat? Of course it is.

Is that what you were looking for from me?

We're all human - even Harry Reid and the rest of us elitist Democrats.
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LAXintl
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:02 am

Sure religion has had its hand in terrible events globally but so have mad men and societies that had no religious connections. Religion at the same time has also aided and brought comfort to billions of people over millennia, so to says its more bad then good is not something I can judge.

But anyhow back with a bunch of examples around us to show that this nation does have a biblical Judeo Christian base.

-Why is Sunday the day of rest, and not Tuesday for instance?
-Why is the bible used in courts, or swearing ceremonies? Will Obama not be sworn in with a bible?
-What about the Pledge of Allegiance? "One nation under God"
-The Dollar bill in your wallet? - "In God We Trust"
-Christian based calendar and holidays
-Acceptance of the social tenants including those in the Ten commandments.


While religious pluralism(and atheism) is acceptable, its those Judeo Christian beliefs that have shaped European and eventually US society and governs the way we live.

[Edited 2008-11-22 01:10:46]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
flynavy
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:12 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 60):
Why is Sunday the day of rest, and not Tuesday for instance?

For most, but not all.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 60):
Why is the bible used in courts, or swearing ceremonies? Will Obama not be sworn in with a bible?

Obama will be sworn-in with a Bible, yes. However not all politicians swear-in with a Bible (btw, "bible" should be capitalized). Take Keith Ellison, D-Minn., the first Muslim elected to the United States Congress for example. He took his oath of office not with the Bible, but on the bible of Islam, the Koran.

When I swore-in upon my entrance into the military, a number of folks entering with me requested the use of other religious texts. The Muslims for the Koran, the Jews requested a Torah, etc.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 60):
"One nation under God"

This line was not in the original pledge. Under God was added in the 1950s.
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flynavy
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:19 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 61):
Jews requested a Torah

Correction: I meant to say Tanakh, which containts the Torah. I'm not by any means an expert in Judaism. Forgive my ignorance.
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LAXintl
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:49 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 61):
For most, but not all.



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 61):
Obama will be sworn-in with a Bible, yes.



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 61):
This line was not in the original pledge. Under God was added in the 1950s.

So do you accept then that for the US is primarily a nation built on and continues to espouse Judeo Christian tradition and beliefs?

If not then we need to change our calendars, much of our laws, and societal tenants and observances.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
UAXDXer
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:02 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 51):
Back in the Prop 8 threads, it wasn't the fault of the LDS church, but the fault of the African American vote!



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 59):
Is it slightly ironic that Harry Reid's church financed the advertising that ultimately helped get Prop 8 passed, given the fact that he's a Democrat? Of course it is.

Given the California mormon & black population numbers, the black vote played a much bigger hand in Prop 8 being passed than the mormon vote did, yet the mormons took the majority of the backlash. It seems to me that those who didn't support Prop 8 went after the easiest target, making them every bit as bigoted as they accused the mormons of being.

Gays called for everything Mormon & Utah to be boycotted, even the Sundance Film Festival which has nothing at all to do with the LDS church. In the spirit of those protest and boycots shouldn't Harry Reid not be included in those protest since he too belongs to the LDS church? That's all I am saying.
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
dl757md
Posts: 1483
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:04 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 51):
it wasn't the fault of the LDS church

Correct.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 51):
but the fault of the African American vote!

No.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 41):
Given the appalling political ineptitude of the HRC and other "gay leaders" in the recent Prop 8 battle



Quoting Tugger (Reply 45):
Can't argue with that. That leadership of the "No on 8" campaign and its actions or lack thereof to the "Yes" campaign was pathetic, shortsighted, and unresponsive

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Blame the right and all who voted for Prop 8 all you want. Doesn't change the fact that we live in a democracy. There are two sides to every issue and in this case case the "NO" side lost because they didn't as effectively campaign for their stand on the issue as the "YES" side did. It seemed as though they were so sure that the measure would be defeated that they became complacent.

Dl757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
flynavy
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:09 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 63):
So do you accept then that for the US is primarily a nation built on and continues to espouse Judeo Christian tradition and beliefs?

I would agree with you on that point. Would you agree with me, too, in that this isn't a Christian nation, as often suggested by folks on the right?

Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 64):
In the spirit of those protest and boycots shouldn't Harry Reid not be included in those protest since he too belongs to the LDS church? That's all I am saying.

I don't particularly care, honestly.

[Edited 2008-11-22 02:18:53]
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flynavy
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:13 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 65):

Can you not identify sarcasm? I was being sarcastic when I stated that. Lighten up.

In one of the Prop 8 threads, anti-Prop 8 folks said that it was solely the fault of the LDS church that Prop 8 got passed. Of course, that's not entirely true. LDS did, however, spend $20 million on advertising and other forms of support for Prop 8, so it isn't unreasonable to say that they had a large impact on it being passed. It was then pointed out that the African American vote is what put Prop 8 over the top and ultimately led to its success.

That is why I mentioned it in my Reply 51, albeit sarcastically.

[Edited 2008-11-22 02:16:58]
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dl757md
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:22 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 67):
Can you not identify sarcasm? I was being sarcastic when I stated that. Lighten up.

I wasn't attacking you. I was merely using your words to help make my point that prop 8 passed not because of actions from the right but rather from the inaction of the left.

Dl757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:30 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 68):
I wasn't attacking you.

I didn't take it as an attack. My skin isn't that thin!  

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 68):
I was merely using your words to help make my point that prop 8 passed not because of actions from the right but rather from the inaction of the left.

And I would agree with your assessment.

Despite my personal beliefs, what you will never see me doing is protesting at an LDS church (or any other church for that matter), nor advocating such action.

If a religious group wants to spend $20 million on a political issue that is important to them (i.e. gay marriage) they have that right, even though I disagree with their opinion (and motivation in doing so). However, in the end, with the pending court rulings on Prop 8, I think they might as well had flushed all that money down the toilet.

Prop 8 passed for two reasons:
1. Gross inaction of those who were against it.  
2. Extremely pro-active organizing and fundraising by all the ignorant people who supported it.   

I'm all for letting the people decide. I just didn't think they'd make the wrong choice.   

[Edited 2008-11-22 02:32:18]
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UAXDXer
Posts: 700
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:45 am

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 69):

Despite my personal beliefs, what you will never see me doing is protesting at an LDS church (or any other church for that matter), nor advocating such action.

If a religious group wants to spend their money on a political issue that is important to them (i.e. gay marriage) they have that right, even though I disagree with their opinion (and motivation in doing so).

Prop 8 passed for two reasons:
1. Gross inaction of those who were against it.
2. Extremely pro-active organizing and fundraising by all the ignorant people who supported it.

I'm all for letting the people decide. I just didn't think they'd make the wrong choice.

See there.... we really agree after all, except the people in Cali did make the right choice   

Really though... I recently lived in a state (Ok) were it was illegal to get a tatoo, porn was limited to soft core, and beer was only allowed to be sold at 3.2%. It annoyed me to no end to have those things forced on me, but that is what the people of that state wanted so I had no choice but to deal with it. I didn't protest at their churches, I didn't call for boycots, and I sure as hell didn't disrupt their church services. I didn't like it & so eventually moved.

[Edited 2008-11-22 02:45:33]
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
flynavy
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:50 am



Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 70):

There is a lot of irony involved in the whole thing.

First with Prop 8 being passed in arguably the most liberal state in the Union, and second with Harry Reid, a Mormon, being from Nevada, a state with legalized prostitution. Whiskey-tango-foxtrot?

Only in America...  Big grin
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UAXDXer
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:01 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 71):
First with Prop 8 being passed in arguably the most liberal state in the Union

I don't know about that... I think there are a lot of states in the NE that would disagree with you on that one.  silly 
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
flynavy
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:03 am



Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 72):

I thought we were done debating?  eyebrow 
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UAXDXer
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:15 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 73):

it's 0514.... i think I am all debated out!  faint 
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
flynavy
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:34 am

Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 74):

Yeah, we're out of stuff to argue about and the moderators are out of posts to delete.

Where's NIKV69 when you need him?  

[Edited 2008-11-22 03:35:43]
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kalakaua
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:38 am

USA? Christian? Pfft. Are you kidding me? It's citizens nowadays adhere to the whims of Hollywood--some sort of religion of wishful thinking; at least in my generation, where my peers succumb to the cheap thrills of Craigslist hook-ups (the gays expecially), of the materialistic lifestyle where wearing D&G/A&F means everything, and going to superficial clubs just to "dance" and drink...to eventually hook-up. And let's not forget the music. The crap I hear nowadays?! Can you seriously whistle to MIA's Paper Planes without sounding stupid?

I also notice how most people are awed by action movies that excite imagination, i.e., James Bond. I admit they're great, even I'm suckered into watching morbid films... Call me boring, but I prefer to watch old films -- the ones that instilled a sense of moral obligation. There aren't that many movies like A Man For All Seasons nowadays. If it were to be a remake, good old Henry VIII would have to be chopping of heads every scene for moviegoers to find it interesting.
Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
flynavy
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:43 am

Our differences as Americans are also our greatest strengths.

Quoting Kalakaua (Reply 76):

Sounds to me like you'd enjoy a chick flick here and there.  

[Edited 2008-11-22 03:45:29]
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kalakaua
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:06 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 77):
Sounds to me like you'd enjoy a chick flick here and there.

Don't tell anyone.  blush 
Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:50 am



Quoting Kalakaua (Reply 76):
a sense of moral obligation

...which is what exactly? Let's break it down:

Morals as defined by who?
Obligation to what?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:40 am



Quoting Mason (Reply 43):

How has any church forced either of you to behave a certain way? I quote a widely known doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: "God will not force anyone, and Satan cannot."

Prop 8. I wanted to get married and have a family. The LDS church forced me to not get married. And now they have an enemy.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 61):

When I swore-in upon my entrance into the military, a number of folks entering with me requested the use of other religious texts. The Muslims for the Koran, the Jews requested a Torah, etc.

The Constitution states that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

If I ever get sworn into anything serving the U.S. I don't want my right hand on the Torah; I'm an athiest. I want my right hand on either an American flag or a copy of the Constitution. THAT'S what I'd swearing to protect.

I've always been against "athiest organizations" since they strike me as being as nonsensical as an "anarchist leader." But maybe it's time for people to start organize to get religion out of government.

As I have said; it's quite clearly stated in the Constitution and in historical documents that this isn't how it's supposed to be. I consider McCarthy to be a traitor and those who followed in his path, using religion as a weapon, should also be considered anti-American traitors.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
flynavy
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:51 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 80):
If I ever get sworn into anything serving the U.S. I don't want my right hand on the Torah; I'm an athiest. I want my right hand on either an American flag or a copy of the Constitution. THAT'S what I'd swearing to protect.

I share your sentiments. Religion, though, as proven by history, is a very powerful weapon, as is the ignorance of man.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 80):
And now they have an enemy.

 checkmark 
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
Mason
Posts: 636
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:03 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 80):
Prop 8. I wanted to get married and have a family. The LDS church forced me to not get married. And now they have an enemy.

An enemy? Really? Why do you consider someone, or a group of people who have differing views than yourself an enemy? I bet those who voted in favor of prop 8 don't consider you to be their enemy.

To be honest, the whole issue of homosexuality is tough for most members of the LDS church. The church teaches that we are all part of the same human family, that we should do as Christ admonished: "Do good to them that curse you, pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you . . ." In other words, there is never justification for hatred toward anyone. I know several members of the LDS church who have never met anyone who is gay, and who form their opinions from footage they see on the news of 'freedom parades' and so forth, which arguably misrepresent a large portion of the gay community.

As one always loves a wayward brother or close relative, the LDS church teaches to love our neighbors, no matter who they are or they way they live their lives. Additionally, the church teaches that marriage is ordained of God, and those who make and keep sacred marriage covenants in this life will enjoy those same relationships in the eternities. Is it so hard to understand why the issue of homosexual marriage is so offensive to members of the LDS church?

For the record, the LDS church didn't contribute one cent towards the Yes on 8 campaign. Many members of the church gave of their means and time, and were encouraged to do so, but not the church.

My point is even though you see an enemy in those who oppose your views, they do not see you as such.

"We claim the privilege of worshiping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege; let them worship how, where, or what they may." Article of Faith 11
 
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mariner
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:11 am

Quoting Mason (Reply 82):
Is it so hard to understand why the issue of homosexual marriage is so offensive to members of the LDS church?

I find it very hard to understand, particularly from the LDS, whose own history is littered with oppression, especially on the issue of matrimony.

The so-called "Mormon War in Illinois", for example.

mariner

[Edited 2008-11-24 20:13:39]
aeternum nauta
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:25 am



Quoting Mason (Reply 82):
Why do you consider someone, or a group of people who have differing views than yourself an enemy?

Let's see... because they just headed up the effort to revoke a right we had, which now makes our financial, social, and especially family lives that much more difficult, perhaps?

Quoting Mason (Reply 82):
I bet those who voted in favor of prop 8 don't consider you to be their enemy.

I bet, you couldn't back that up if your life depended on it.

Quoting Mason (Reply 82):
To be honest, the whole issue of homosexuality is tough for most members of the LDS church.

Oh boo-the-f^ck-hoo...

Them: realize that gays, and our relationships, and our families (for those who have them) exist, will exist, and aren't going anywhere.

Us: go through life with religious asshats like this making our fiscal and family lives that much harder every chance they get.

...for WHO is this "tough", you say? Indeed.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:59 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 81):
Religion, though, as proven by history, is a very powerful weapon, as is the ignorance of man.

Have you noticed that they often go hand in hand?  Smile

Quoting Mason (Reply 82):
Why do you consider someone, or a group of people who have differing views than yourself an enemy?

Because they deployed much energy into forcing their views onto his own, non-threatening aspirations.

You can think the Earth is flat all you want (I believe you do not, but for the sake of discussion), it does not threaten me. But if you start prohibiting me from learning about the curvature of the Earth then you are an enemy.

 Smile

Quoting Mason (Reply 82):
the LDS church teaches to love our neighbors, no matter who they are or they way they live their lives.

Banning them from getting married is to love them?

Ok.

Be sure to tell gays whenever your church decides not to love them anymore. So that they can move to Canada, Europe or Australia before they are made undesirable in the US.  Smile

Quoting Mason (Reply 82):
Is it so hard to understand why the issue of homosexual marriage is so offensive to members of the LDS church?

Is it so hard for members of the LDS church to understand that not everybody shares their beliefs?

Quoting Mason (Reply 82):
Many members of the church gave of their means and time, and were encouraged to do so, but not the church.

How do you describe a "church" if not by the combination of a power structure and a congregation?

Quoting Mason (Reply 82):
My point is even though you see an enemy in those who oppose your views, they do not see you as such.

My point exactly. The moment you guys decide to see gays as an enemy, please have the decency to let us people from other countries know a bit in advance so we can fast-track the applications for asylum.  Smile

Quoting Mason (Reply 82):
let them worship how, where, or what they may." Article of Faith 11

Indeed. Now where did that go once the question was asked "should gays be allowed to get married"?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 80):
And now they have an enemy.

By the way, medium is a bit tight for clothes, mate...  biggrin  But I keep trying.
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24699
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:17 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 66):
Would you agree with me, too, in that this isn't a Christian nation, as often suggested by folks on the right?

No, I do believe the US is primarily a Christian nation, and one that is actually becoming more and more religious. About 77% of Americans classify themselves as Christians.

According to the 2007 Yearbook of American Churches, active church membership in the US was 149.2mil, with the following top 10 churches - all which are Christian.

1. The Catholic Church, 69,135,254 members, .
2. The Southern Baptist Convention, 16,270,315 members
3. The United Methodist Church, 8,075,010 members
4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 5,690,672 members
5. The Church of God in Christ, 5,499,875 members
6. National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc., 5,000,000 members
7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, 4,850,776
8. National Baptist Convention of America, 3,500,000,
9. Presbyterian Church (USA), 3,098,842 members
10. Assemblies of God, 2,830,861 members

Per Gallup approximately 118mil Americans attend church on a weekly basis.

While according to the US census, the number of physical churches (not little store front ones) increased by what to me is an amazing 40% in the US between 1980 and 2000. (Suppose urban sprawl and Catholic immigration from South of the border has something to do with this)

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 84):
because they just headed up the effort

Well I believe you need to add lots of groups to that including the huge Catholic Church. Even the Archbishop of San Francisco came out in support of Prop-8.

The two separate denominational churches Mrs and Mom LAXintl attend both had talks about Prop-8 and urged a Yes vote in the weeks prior.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 84):
revoke a right we had

You never had the right to begin with. Same-sex marriage was always illegal in California. The 5 months in between June and Novembers election was simply an aberration that voters fixed.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 80):
I wanted to get married and have a family.

You can always have a civil union, or if "marriage" by name is so important travel and do it in a location that allows such.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:20 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 80):
Prop 8. I wanted to get married and have a family.

Prop 8 shouldn't stop you from having a family. You have stated before that you intend to stay in California should you stay in the US, so you could have a civil union, and adopt children. Plenty of gays adopt kids.
 
BN747
Posts: 7898
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:40 am



Quoting UAL777 (Reply 21):
You are picking the most extreme of the right you could possibly choose. The greater block of the so-called "religious right" believe in traditional values, low taxes, hard-work, and a strong military. Anti-abortion is also there but is that so bad?

And that 'extreme' I pointed out, is the extreme that has the biggest microphone..it is 'that extreme' that lends the appearance that it speaks for you and all religious conservatives. When one meets a christian..we must discern somehow 'just which type' am I dealing with. Even you guys can't tell each other apart until a Q&A sorting out.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 33):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 14):
"How comfortable would you feel if Louis Farrakhan lead a movement comprising of a 60-70 million voting block....and was thrusting for more growth and political influence...."

Louis , is a racist anti semite who wishes the " destruction" of a race and the empowerment of another. Not the same a standing for basic moral issues , and issues frankly to common to all nature.

Oh please, none of your religious rightwing nutcase leaders have shouted 'Death to gays'? To Muslims'? And you certainly know that far far more 'think' it or voice it among their comfortable circles. You guys are no different.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Tugger
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:08 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 63):
So do you accept then that for the US is primarily a nation built on and continues to espouse Judeo Christian tradition and beliefs?

If not then we need to change our calendars, much of our laws, and societal tenants and observances.



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 86):
No, I do believe the US is primarily a Christian nation, and one that is actually becoming more and more religious. About 77% of Americans classify themselves as Christians.

And that matter why? When the Constitution of these United States does not allow any religion to be the "religion of the land".


Quoting Mason (Reply 82):
"We claim the privilege of worshiping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege; let them worship how, where, or what they may." Article of Faith 11

Interesting, I never realized that the Mormon's would cast aside one of their religions core tenets. That of not interfering in matters that affect other religious practices. I had always found Mormons to be good people and honorable people. Now that you pointed this out to me I am even more so disappointed.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:37 am



Quoting Tugger (Reply 89):
And that matter why? When the Constitution of these United States does not allow any religion to be the "religion of the land".

Because as you likely realize one reason as to how or why people vote is based on their convictions and beliefs which religion obviously can significantly influence.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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keesje
Posts: 13998
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:24 pm

I think the republican party has had its last campaign based on ultra traditional christian values, scare politics and smearing the other party.

They already had sensed society was getting less influential by these proven tactics and forwarded the more liberal McCain. A strategic mistake was made by adding Palin, I think they underestimated the female vote for change.

Probably a new generation within the party that was surpressed by the neo con's and their sympathizers will free the current bunch to pursue new challenges and make changes, probably more the moderate social kind of christinity and get rid of "either you're with us or you are against us" foreigh policies and "everyone for them selves" based national policies.

IMO supernatural believes should play a smaller role in the real world.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:59 pm



Quoting Tugger (Reply 89):

Interesting, I never realized that the Mormon's would cast aside one of their religions core tenets.

I'm not surprised.

"Thou Shalt Not Kill." How many Judeo-Christian religions have killed in the name of God?

"Thou Shalt Not Steal." How many lootings?

"Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbor's Wife." How many rapes?

Christ preached peace, love, humility, and non-judgementalism. And yet those who wave the Cross around most vigorously are invariably the most violent, hateful, prideful, and judgemental of them all.

So no, Tugger, I am not surprised. I am not surprised that the LDS Church has proven itself to be a bunch of hypocrites. Not in the least. They are just as bad as any other dogmatic religion.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
QXatFAT
Posts: 2336
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:53 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 86):
Christian nation,

There is no such thing as a Christian nation. Sorry. (Yes I am a devoted Christian)

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 86):
all which are Christian

Claim to be Christians. Does not mean they are Christian by faith but only by name.

The "Religious Right" will never be marginalized to the point where they are nothing. You will always have politics in the Church (does not mean I agree with it) which will always lead to the LDS Chruch promoting something or the Baptist Church promoting something or the Catholic Church promoting something. Many actually believe, and sad to say, that they need to follow everything the Christian, Catholic, or Mormon Church says. Many a times, it is something that Christians, Catholics, or Mormons should not be involved in anyways.

Remember, you have people like Pat Robertson and Dr. James Dobson on one side of the "religous" coin and then Rev. Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, and Rick Warren on the other side of the coin. Sometimes they ballance each other out on issues.

Religious Right does NOT always = Republican
Don't Tread On Me!
 
RSWA330
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:42 am

RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:27 pm



Quoting Tugger (Reply 40):
Out of curiosity, why are the "gay mafia" so feared?

They aren't "feared." Believe it or not, most Christians don't care what people do in their own lives as long as it doesn't affect others. Sorry, but I will refuse to teach my children that marriage can between people of the same sex. Marriage, as commonly accepted in this country, is between a man and a woman. The results of Prop 8 and Ammendment 2 further solidify that notion.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 55):
Which is what exactly?
...because if you're actually so naive as to believe that it's 1 adult man + 1 adult woman, in a mutally-concented monogamous relationship; as promoted by neo"C"onservative fearmongering--- then your ignorance of history makes Palin's, well, pale.

Why? I do believe that and I would love for you to expalin to me why it is ignorant? Is it because I don't want to accept that marriage can be between gay people? That is not ignorant.
 
Jeremy
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 16, 2001 10:27 am

RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:28 pm



Quoting Canuckpaxguy (Reply 15):
Who is dumb enough to believe this guy, let alone send him money???

Funny, I think the same thing about people who buy carbon credits.
You are now free to be sexually harassed and then terminated for filing a complaint--Southwest Airlines to me.
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:21 pm



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 93):
Many actually believe, and sad to say, that they need to follow everything the Christian, Catholic, or Mormon Church says. Many a times, it is something that Christians, Catholics, or Mormons should not be involved in anyways.

 checkmark  I think these are wise words.
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 21857
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:13 pm



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 93):

Claim to be Christians. Does not mean they are Christian by faith but only by name.

Yeah, well that's the problem, isn't it? Because if we ask them, then YOU are only claiming to be Christian in name and THEY are the true Christian Soldiers.

And in the absence of any clearly-worded statement by God to clarify the situation, who's to say that they're wrong?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
solarix
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:57 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 1):
However, at the state level, the religious right - particularly the Mormon church - financed and advocated the passage of Prop 8 to the tune of $20 million.

Black Africans voting for Obama (and change) helped pass Prop 8 on a higher scale than the Mormon church.
Bong Hits 4 Jesus
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 21857
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RE: Religious Right Finally Marginalized?

Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:05 am



Quoting Solarix (Reply 98):

Black Africans voting for Obama (and change) helped pass Prop 8 on a higher scale than the Mormon church.

And believe me you that LDS Church marketed VERY heavily in those neighborhoods.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan

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