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seb146
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Presidential Pardons

Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:34 pm

I just read on yahoo.com that Bush is pardoning 14 people today. I know presidential pardons are a fact of life in this country. Some of the shiftiest crooks commit crimes and get off because one man says it is okay. Why even have a justice system? Why do we allow these people to take millions and millions of dollars from innocent and hard working people just to have someone come along and make like nothing ever happened? I don't care if it is Bush I, Bush II, Clinton, Lincoln or Kennedy. Why is this even allowed?
 
dxing
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:51 pm

Simple answer, checks and balances.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:04 am



Quoting Seb146 (Thread starter):
Why is this even allowed?

...because it's in the Constitution.

That said, I'm at a loss as to what purpose it truly serves in a nation of checks and balances. I'm not really for f^cking with the Constitution, but if ever there were an actual need to amend it (and not something trite like religious bigots attempting to appear relevant, yet again)... then tough to find a more clearcut case than either restricting, or abolishing, the concept of Presidential (and Gubernatorial, on a state level) pardons.
 
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seb146
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:23 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 1):
Simple answer, checks and balances.

I understand the concept of checks and balances. I even understand there are people who are wrongly sentenced. In those cases, I am all for pardons. However, there are cases where someone gets away with fraud or money laundering or some such thing and they are pardoned like it never happened even though a jury of peers found the accused actually commited the crime. That does not seem like checks and balances to me. That seems flat out wrong.
 
dxing
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:28 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 3):
However, there are cases where someone gets away with fraud or money laundering or some such thing and they are pardoned like it never happened even though a jury of peers found the accused actually commited the crime

A pardon rarely happens right after conviction. Scooter Libby is an exception, not a rule. Usually in order to get a pardon the convicted person has to present some sort of compelling evidence as to why they deserve a pardon. Aside from that, to remove the pardon from the Chief Executive would be to deny someone truly deserving of it. LIke all perks, sometimes it's used appropriately sometimes not. But the perk comes with the job.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:39 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 4):
Scooter Libby is an exception, not a rule.

Libby wasn't pardoned (well, yet, anyways).

Quoting DXing (Reply 4):
would be to deny someone truly deserving of it

What on earth manner of nonsense is this?
...what have any of those types done to DESERVE(?!) the ability to flout the law?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:41 am

The concept behind pardons go way back in history, prior to the founding of the US.

At one time one could make appeals to the Emperor, the King, Pope, or all types leaders. Basically the same thing exist today where people can make the ultimate appeal to their Governor or President of the US. On the state level such appeals often surround things like death row prisoners seeking stays of execution for instance.

While I suppose Presidential pardons in recent decades have been politicized (look at Clinton), I believe they do hold a place in society in those cases where people have either gotten the shaft from the system, or possibly are truly reformed and deserve a new start.
 
dxing
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:58 am



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 5):
Libby wasn't pardoned (well, yet, anyways).

You're right, I should have said had his sentence commuted.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 5):
What on earth manner of nonsense is this?
...what have any of those types done to DESERVE(?!) the ability to flout the law?

I don't know that any of these 14 deserve it. I was thinking of future pardons and future Presidents.
 
haggis79
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:03 am

I think the most interesting thing in this matter is if Bush will pardon Cheyney and Rummy before he leaves office.... basically giving them a blank cheque.

BTW, could he, theoretically, pardon himself?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:14 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 7):
I was thinking of future pardons and future Presidents.

I know, that's what I was talking about.
 
dxing
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:16 am



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 9):
I know, that's what I was talking about.

Then how can you say that someone wrongfully convicted or wrongfully sentenced shouldn't deserve at least the consideration of a pardon?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:37 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 10):

Then how can you say that someone wrongfully convicted or wrongfully sentenced shouldn't deserve at least the consideration of a pardon?

because if here were any tangible corroboration for that innocence, then we already have systems in place to rectify such.
 
dxing
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:09 am



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11):
because if here were any tangible corroboration for that innocence, then we already have systems in place to rectify such.

Such as?
 
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GuitrThree
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:53 am



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 8):
BTW, could he, theoretically, pardon himself?

For what? Last time I checked, he was convicted of nothing.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:19 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 12):
Such as?

Don't waste my time with such drivel, you know damn well what I'm talking about...

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 13):
For what? Last time I checked, he was convicted of nothing.

...doesn't have to be. Remember Ford's (in)famous pardon?
 
dxing
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Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:21 am



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 14):
Don't waste my time with such drivel, you know damn well what I'm talking about...

What the courts? Evidently the framers felt there was a need for a check on the courts same as they made the Constitution amendable.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:24 am

Every President pardons throughout his incumbency. It's not a huge deal.

I'm still going to look for a few names upcoming: Scooter Libby; Dick Cheney, to name two of them.
 
haggis79
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:42 am



Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 13):
For what? Last time I checked, he was convicted of nothing.

basically to prevent of hypothetically being accused for anything he's done in office. Would be the same for Cheyney and Rumsfeld. For the record, I don't think he's gonna do anything like that, at least for himself. I just wanted to know if he, theoretically, could.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:55 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 15):
Evidently the framers felt there was a need for a check on the courts same as they made the Constitution amendable.

...which has ____ to do with the topic/concept of eliminating a Presidential pardon?
 
Confuscius
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:15 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 16):
I'm still going to look for a few names upcoming: Scooter Libby; Dick Cheney, to name two of them.

Here's my presidential pardons prognostication:



...add this joker too.

 
NorthstarBoy
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:42 am

Personally, i think he should start by offering full pardons/reinstatement to those two INS agents currently serving 12 year prison sentences for shooting in the rear end a known drug dealer who had entered the country illegally and who was fleeing from them no less. Hopefully, future presidents will make it a point of *not* offering pardons or commutations to political hacks and big money donors who end up on the wrong side of the bars, and in the process make the statement money can't buy you a break from the law. If you do the crime you are going to do the time, no matter how much money, fame or prestige you have, that's the way it should be.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:20 pm

In some USA states, for example Texas, the power of pardon and communication is in part vested in an appointed committee to review the records of applicants and make recommendations to the Governor there. That can act as a check on excessive use by a governor there (including past Texas Governor and current President Bush). Of course, for political reasons, like someone who killed a police officer for example, a governor may allow the death penalty go foreward despite serious issues over evidence due to politics involved, especially as to powerful police officer unions.

We saw a few years ago the then outgoing Governor of Illinois (Ryan), facing corruption and bribary charges he would be later jailed for, cleaned out that states' 'Death Row' by pardons and communication. Maybe his actions were political to try to save his sorry butt, but on the other hand Northwest Law School students brought up that a number of those on that state's death row had serious arguements that their sentences were wrongly applied, victims of proscutors, bad witnesses and pressure from police officers. While Governor Ryan may have done his acts to try to curry favor with the public to back off the proscution of him, there is reason to believe that he did the right thing with his powers. Despite his motivation, that is one good reason for the pardon and communication powers.

Let us hope President Bush uses his pardon powers for proper reasons and not to make sure his key people get away with their crimes.
 
dxing
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:00 pm



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 5):
What on earth manner of nonsense is this?
...what have any of those types done to DESERVE(?!) the ability to flout the law?

Well here is one of those you accuse of "flouting" the law. If his story is correct, then why he was prosecuted in the first place is a wonder. If you read the story President Bush may not have had any idea why Mr. Pue was being pardoned other than the pardon attorney recommended him for it. His daughter mailed a letter asking for the pardon, there was paperwork filled out and a background check by the FBI. I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be granted a pardon, if you do speak up.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6130385.html
 
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seb146
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:33 pm



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11):
because if here were any tangible corroboration for that innocence, then we already have systems in place to rectify such.

Not nessicarily. Sometimes innocent people go to jail. In those cases, the courts still fail. Even if the innocent are convicted, lawyers have an appeal process. It is during that process that the innocent should be set free, in theory. Having said that, I still don't understand why governers or the president have the power of pardons.

If, for example, Person X is convicted of money laundering, fraud and racketeering. S/He is convicted because of overwhelming and damning evidnce. Her/His lawyer works on appeals and is turned down until, finally, the governer or president sees the petition for pardon and pardons this person. It is cases like that where I am forced to ask: why these are allowed?
 
bok269
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:29 pm



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 20):
Personally, i think he should start by offering full pardons/reinstatement to those two INS agents currently serving 12 year prison sentences for shooting in the rear end a known drug dealer who had entered the country illegally and who was fleeing from them no less. Hopefully, future presidents will make it a point of *not* offering pardons or commutations to political hacks and big money donors who end up on the wrong side of the bars, and in the process make the statement money can't buy you a break from the law. If you do the crime you are going to do the time, no matter how much money, fame or prestige you have, that's the way it should be.

 checkmark  I was going to post the same thing.

Bring Porter Patrol Agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean home now!
 
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LTU932
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:28 pm



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 14):
Remember Ford's (in)famous pardon?

And also, don't forget Bill Clinton pardoning his own brother just before Bush's first inauguration.
 
Confuscius
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RE: Presidential Pardons

Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:55 am

Sign up for the Duke Cunningham pardon petition. Be the proud and the few...only 46 so far since Nov 2005!

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/...don-for-randy-duke-cunningham.html

[Edited 2008-11-25 18:56:45]

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