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A332
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"Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:34 pm

Opposition vows to reject fiscal update
Tory fiscal update fuels election speculation

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=1004657

OTTAWA - Finance Minister Jim Flaherty tabled a deficit-free fiscal forecast Thursday that contained a political time bomb that could put his government in peril as early as Monday night.

The federal government will post the narrowest of surpluses next year and the year after that, Flaherty said, even as he warned that a volatile economic situation means "a deficit cannot be ruled out."

There are no new spending initiatives and only a tiny spending cut - the elimination of a taxpayer subsidy worth less than $30 million that gets divided up among federal political parties based on their performance in the most recent general election. The elimination of that subsidy hits the Liberals and the Bloc Quebecois hardest because it made up about two-thirds of each party's revenue last year.

All three opposition parties vowed to vote against the measures contained in the fiscal update, but were careful to say it was not because their parties stood to lose millions in federal subsidies but instead because the government presented no plan to spur economic growth or help Canadians who have either lost jobs or whose jobs are in jeopardy because of the economic slowdown.

* Wow... seven weeks after the election, we could already see the end of the latest Conservative minority and be headed back to the polls... or worse... face a coalition of the left & separatists!
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scrubbsywg
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:43 pm

i would imagine that would also damage the green party as well. They had reached that certain number of votes are now almost being taken seriously by many. Of course they are not a major party in canada, but this would hurt them quite a bit.
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:07 pm

I wonder if people would just get fed up with elections, and could potentially have a greater amount of people vote for the conservatives, inorder to get a majority and not have to put up with this crap anymore. I think it is just stupid to call another election, not to much has changed that would swing votes either way, so it would just be the status quo, and cost a pile of money. If this Liberals/NDP/Block go ahead with this I think it would be very childish of them, again they are politicians so who knows.

If it does go through, here is hoping for a conservative majority!
Keep the shinny side up!
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:10 pm

 
ZBBYLW
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:40 pm



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 3):

Thank god, I was thinking if Canada had another election, our voter turn out would be even more disapointing than it already was.
Keep the shinny side up!
 
yooyoo
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:16 pm



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 3):
sounds like the drama is over...



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 4):
Thank god, I was thinking if Canada had another election, our voter turn out would be even more disapointing than it already was.

I don't think it's over and there will be no election. Our wonderful govenor general will allow the gang of 3 parties ( Lib+NDP, backed up by the PQ) to take over the government, an agreement being brokered as we speak by Chretien and Broadbent.
I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
 
cfcuq
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:19 pm

Sigh ........."Canadian" and "politics" in the same sentence .... oxymoron
 
yooyoo
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:27 pm

I am really starting to dislike our political system up here. We had a vote 8 weeks ago, Harper wins with a minority....fine. Now The old slugs i noted above can change everything just by going to the GG?? wtf !! I hope there's more to it and not that easy to do, but that's the way i understand it.
I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:42 pm



Quoting YooYoo (Reply 7):
I am really starting to dislike our political system up here. We had a vote 8 weeks ago, Harper wins with a minority....fine. Now The old slugs i noted above can change everything just by going to the GG?? wtf !! I hope there's more to it and not that easy to do, but that's the way i understand it.

Frankly, i love it. Parliamentary systems work this way. A lot of other countries are governed the same way when the governing party must form coalitions to even govern at all. We are 'lucky' that our minority governments have usually been able to be made by one party.

Having elections every few months would suck, but we are not there yet. Since the minority governments started a few years ago, every party at some point had said 'this is a confidence vote' or 'we will bring down the government'. It is a game, and this is no different.
 
A332
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:08 pm

I'm outraged at the fact the opposition is willing to unseat a seven-week-old, democratically-elected government in order to keep taxpayer dollars flowing to their party coffers (which is what it's really all about).

I'm sorry, but if it's time to cut spending wherever we can, subsidies to the political parties need to cease. For the record, the Liberals implemented this policy back in 2003 and have been collecting a majority of their funds from this fund since, as have the other opposition parties.

As usual, the Liberals, NDP & Bloc just cannot keep their hands off our money. At a time of economic uncertainty, the last thing we need is governance from the "rob us blind" Liberals and the "spend, spend, spend" NDP.
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
TheCol
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:12 pm



Quoting YooYoo (Reply 7):

Would you rather have our country go without sufficient leadership or oversight while we are at war?

Personally, even though I support the conservatives, I think the Governor General should let the Liberals and NDP form a coalition government. There is no point spending millions on another election that will put us in this position yet again within 12 to 18 months. Instead, we should let the Liberals and NDP screw things up enough so most Canadians will be inclined to actually head out to the polls and elect the majority government we need.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
yfbflyer
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:35 pm



Quoting A332 (Reply 9):
in order to keep taxpayer dollars flowing to their party coffers (which is what it's really all about).

This is really just a politicaly easy target for the goverment. This subsidy really allows for other parties to bring their voice to the table. I think the Green Party would be even more of a fringe group if it wasn't for this.
The funding is based on the votes cast which is about $1.80 per vote as long as the politcal party gets at least 5% of the total vote.

Quoting A332 (Reply 9):
but if it's time to cut spending wherever we can, subsidies to the political parties need to cease

I would rather see the tax write off for political contributions cease. I am sure that this would help the budget and i think it would be a much more fair system.
As long as the politicians are looking to trim i dont see them lining up to take a pay cut, cutting their pensions or cutting back their travle allowances.
 
skyservice_330
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:45 pm

This is hilarious. Stephen 'leadership' Harper is backing down pretty fast. The opposition called him to task on his sneaky, partisan move and he is rolling over faster than a hooker on Saturday night. Freakin Hilarious. And does Flaherty even talk to the PM anymore? They seem to be saying completely opposite things.

My guess is that Harper will use next week to reform the bill and make it acceptable for the opposition, perhaps throw something in resembling stimulus. All this talk of a coalition will be old news as it is only being used to push back against Harper as the opposition parties can't actually believe that Canadians will accept a coalition being 'appointed' by the GG. Then again, over 60% of the country DIDN'T vote for Harper. Interesting times.
 
A332
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:55 pm



Quoting Yfbflyer (Reply 11):
This is really just a politicaly easy target for the goverment. This subsidy really allows for other parties to bring their voice to the table. I think the Green Party would be even more of a fringe group if it wasn't for this.
The funding is based on the votes cast which is about $1.80 per vote as long as the politcal party gets at least 5% of the total vote.

Funny, the Conservatives stand to lose the most funding through this cut... perhaps it's time for political parties to raise their own money through the usual grassroots methods... ie... $5 here, $10 there...

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 12):
All this talk of a coalition will be old news as it is only being used to push back against Harper as the opposition parties can't actually believe that Canadians will accept a coalition being 'appointed' by the GG.

Agreed. It's all posturing. It's just pathetic that it comes to this kind of selfishness when our economy is sagging.

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 12):
Then again, over 60% of the country DIDN'T vote for Harper. Interesting times.

Same can be said about the Chretien majorities... the majority didn't vote for him either.
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:26 am

Quoting A332 (Reply 9):
the opposition is willing to unseat a seven-week-old, democratically-elected government in order to keep taxpayer dollars flowing

Sadly, one of the true flaws in our system of government is that it allows opposition parties to topple governments over ANY sort of matter, even if it's only important to those on Parliament Hill.

In theory, the opposition is to debate with government to develop well-considered laws and policies for Canada. (I realize how naive that sounds!). But it seems the opposition parties have historically been far more interested in arguing about semantics and exposing petty scandals in the media than they have been in debating policies that affect Canadians.

I think it spun out of control during the Chretien years, when the opposition parties spent more than a decade arguing like children over issues that most Canadians just didn't care about. A perfect example of this was the Gomery Commission. The only interested parties were those involved, and a few gossips in Ottawa. The vast majority of Canadians were outraged at the COST of the inquiry itself rather than its findings.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 10):
Would you rather have our country go without sufficient leadership or oversight while we are at war?

"Sufficent" leadership is arguable, particularly given what our neighbours have dealt with the last 8 years, but be us at war or not, this country has gone without effective leadership for several years. I've heard over and over again that it's difficult to manage our country with a minority government, but Lester Pearson did it admirably, two terms in a row. In fact, Prime Minister Pearson is credited with introducing many of the policies and programs that Canadians are most proud of --- (Canada Pension Plan, Health benefits for all Canadians, student loans, and of course, the Canadian Flag as we know it today).

I didn't think any party could do a worse job as official opposition than the Conservatives. I learned how wrong I was when the Liberals took on that role in 2006. My faith in the Liberal party faded even more when Monsier Dion became the leader of the party, not because he was the best person for the job, but because of a series of breakdowns in ill-fated alliances not seen since the first season of Survivor.

So now, with a new leadership convention underway, I am once again naively hopeful for a stronger Liberal party. The front-runners are two brilliant men by most measurements, (Rae: a Rhodes scholar, with a law degree who studied at Oxford; and Ignatieff who taught at Cambridge, Harvard and the HEC in Paris). This country needs LEADERSHIP. Prime Minister Harper may be fine statesman, but he's no leader. Unfortunately, when I cast my ballot last month, I had little choice but to vote for his party. If we go to another election before a new Liberal leader has been announced, the Conservatives will win even MORE seats and maybe even a majority.

In the meantime, Canadian politics are still, by and large, "dull". The only "twist" is that there's a new scandal brewing, and once again, the parties involved are more interested in their own selfish, short-term needs than the very real impact this budget will have on millions of Canadians for years to come.

G

[Edited 2008-11-28 16:30:05]
 
connies4ever
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:52 am



Quoting YooYoo (Reply 5):

I don't think it's over and there will be no election. Our wonderful govenor general will allow the gang of 3 parties ( Lib+NDP, backed up by the PQ) to take over the government, an agreement being brokered as we speak by Chretien and Broadbent.

I disagree. The G-G would then be in the position of permitting a national government to be created that had the active support of people who want to break Canada up. I cannot see this flying. Harper's being a dick about this issue, since it wasn't in the throne speech or the election, but no one wants another election now. Harper sees this as a chance to bury the Liberals for a generation, and he's prepared to take risks to achieve that.

Of course, if he loses, he's out of work the next day.
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scrubbsywg
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:49 pm

after all the talk after the election about how dion basically sucked as being leader for the libs, it would be pretty amazing to see him become PM.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:52 pm

This is a "twist?"

Lightweight Canucks. Can't even pull off a proper sex scandal!  Wink
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A332
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:39 pm



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 16):
after all the talk after the election about how dion basically sucked as being leader for the libs, it would be pretty amazing to see him become PM.

I think the Liberals would put Michael Ignatieff up for the top spot considering he's the front-runner for the leadership and he is far more favorable than Bob Rae (especially in Ontario where it matters), I can't see Dion ever taking the lead.

Ignatieff should have been leader of the Liberal party right from the start... how he managed to lose to Dion is beyond me.
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canuckpaxguy
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:17 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Lightweight Canucks. Can't even pull off a proper sex scandal!

Well, there was that one with Maxime Bernier and the woman with the impressive cleavage... You're right though, as far as sex scandals go, this one was pretty dull too.

Quoting A332 (Reply 18):
I think the Liberals would put Michael Ignatieff up for the top spot considering he's the front-runner for the leadership and he is far more favorable than Bob Rae (especially in Ontario where it matters), I can't see Dion ever taking the lead.

Ignatieff should have been leader of the Liberal party right from the start... how he managed to lose to Dion is beyond me.

See my earlier post.

I hope Ignatieff gets voted in as the leader of the party also. Voting in Bob Rae would be disastrous for the Liberals. Ontarians remember Premier Rae, and would be VERY hesitant to make the same mistake twice by voting for him federally ... particularly given the state of the economy. Can you imagine "Rae-Days" going nationwide?

G
 
yooyoo
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:54 pm



Quoting Canuckpaxguy (Reply 19):
Can you imagine "Rae-Days" going nationwide?

And photo radar on the Trans Canada Highway!!.  Wink
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A346Dude
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:55 am

Apparently the Conservatives have backed off on the proposed cuts to party funding. This is looking more and more like a strategic blunder on the part of the PM.

My guess is over the next week the opposition gradually backs down on their threat to topple the government. They can't do it right away or everyone figures out their real reason for the coalition was the party funding cuts.

Either way it makes for interesting politics. This is the sort of thing they put in history books.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
jamincan
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:42 am



Quoting Canuckpaxguy (Reply 14):
Sadly, one of the true flaws in our system of government is that it allows opposition parties to topple governments over ANY sort of matter, even if it's only important to those on Parliament Hill.

They can only topple the government on matters of confidence, or introduce a vote of non-confidence themselves. Obviously it's not a light decision and there is no guarantee that the Governor General would offer the job to the opposition.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 15):
I disagree. The G-G would then be in the position of permitting a national government to be created that had the active support of people who want to break Canada up.

Back in 2004 I think, Stephen Harper, alongside Jack Layton and Gilles Duceppe wrote a letter to Adrienne Clarkson that should they topple the government, they would wish for her to consider the CPC propped up by the other two parties as a potential alternative before calling an election. And quite frankly, the Bloc Quebecois have as legitimate voice in parliament as every other MP. Who cares if they prop up the government? They prop up the current Conservative government anytime they vote with them as well.

Quoting Canuckpaxguy (Reply 19):
I hope Ignatieff gets voted in as the leader of the party also. Voting in Bob Rae would be disastrous for the Liberals. Ontarians remember Premier Rae, and would be VERY hesitant to make the same mistake twice by voting for him federally ... particularly given the state of the economy. Can you imagine "Rae-Days" going nationwide?

I think the issue of Rae's days as Premier of Ontario are largely overstated. It has been a long time since he governed, and he was replaced by Mike Harris who has an even bigger legacy that I believe has allowed many Ontarian's to forget about the days of Rae. The general view I hear tends to be more generous, not praise by any means, but recognition that the time was probably affected more by the ongoing recession than by the NDP government.

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 21):
My guess is over the next week the opposition gradually backs down on their threat to topple the government. They can't do it right away or everyone figures out their real reason for the coalition was the party funding cuts.

I'm not so sure, as this is more than just an issue of political fundraising. This really has become an issue of confidence in the government. Stephen Harper has clearly shown that he has no intention of trying to achieve consensus and instead would rather play political games instead of dealing honestly with governing. The only thing that has changed is that a coalition has become somewhat less pressing for the opposition and so it would be easier for the process to derail. I don't doubt that those people making the negotiations are well aware that Stephen Harper is not beyond playing these games and would likely continue to play them in the future. Eliminating him specifically, something which would benefit all opposition parties, and even the CPC in my opinion (Harper represents a brand of politics that is far too cynical and self-serving, the party would be better off canning him for someone like Jim Prentice imo), would be easiest done by defeating his government now. Due to his hubris, he has basically handed the other parties the knife and now has to wait and see whether they will finish him off or not. It would be foolish of them to not do the deed.
 
A346Dude
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:13 am



Quoting Jamincan (Reply 22):
Due to his hubris, he has basically handed the other parties the knife and now has to wait and see whether they will finish him off or not. It would be foolish of them to not do the deed.

OK, but how exactly is a coalition of two parties who hated each other 2 months ago (and still do), propped up by another that wants to tear apart the country - oh, and which has no leader to speak of - going to survive more than a couple days as the government? The opposition knows it, and the result would be another election, very soon. With a leaderless Liberal party offering no real alternative, the end result could very well be a Conservative majority just to end the chaos.

Now that their pressing motivation to form the coalition has disappeared, it makes no sense to go ahead anyways. It's not worth it anymore.

Who knows though, this whole thing is so crazy nothing seems out of the question anymore.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:24 am



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 2):
I wonder if people would just get fed up with elections, and could potentially have a greater amount of people vote for the conservatives, inorder to get a majority and not have to put up with this crap anymore. I think it is just stupid to call another election, not to much has changed that would swing votes either way, so it would just be the status quo, and cost a pile of money. If this Liberals/NDP/Block go ahead with this I think it would be very childish of them, again they are politicians so who knows.

If it does go through, here is hoping for a conservative majority!

People are fed up.. and I think what will end up happening if we end up with a coalition government, is that the NDP and the Liberals will suffer *sooo* bad in the next general election, that they will be almost a non-issue.

People are tired of this.

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 8):

Having elections every few months would suck, but we are not there yet. Since the minority governments started a few years ago, every party at some point had said 'this is a confidence vote' or 'we will bring down the government'. It is a game, and this is no different.

Since the minority governments started a few years ago, we have had absolutely NOTHING worth while passed through parliament. This does NOTHING to serve the people of Canada at ALL.

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 12):
This is hilarious. Stephen 'leadership' Harper is backing down pretty fast. The opposition called him to task on his sneaky, partisan move and he is rolling over faster than a hooker on Saturday night. Freakin Hilarious. And does Flaherty even talk to the PM anymore? They seem to be saying completely opposite things.

Actually, what it is, is a desperate attempt at a party that is becoming more and more less important (libs), to hang on.

Frankly, I'm quite sick of this bulls*it. This really is counter productive to the business of the nation, and at a time of Economic disparity and global recession, it is disgusting, and I hope they get what they deserve.

1011yyz
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canuckpaxguy
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:09 pm



Quoting YooYoo (Reply 20):
And photo radar on the Trans Canada Highway!!. Wink

Yes! I had forgotten about Big Brother on the 401! I think the promise of eliminating photo radar was why most people voted for Mike Harris in the first place!

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 22):
They can only topple the government on matters of confidence, or introduce a vote of non-confidence themselves. Obviously it's not a light decision and there is no guarantee that the Governor General would offer the job to the opposition.

Uh, gee thanks for that lesson. Matters of confidence arise from a government's inability to pass legislation for ANY reason.

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 22):
Mike Harris who has an even bigger legacy that I believe has allowed many Ontarian's to forget about the days of Rae. The general view I hear tends to be more generous,

We clearly talk to different people. Most people I know would welcome back Harris with open arms than even consider letting Rae anywhere near Queen's Park (or Parliament Hill for that matter). Rae and his NDP government gave unions far more power than they deserve (until Rae Days) and his social and economic policies did long term damage to Ontario's economy. I'm not sure what he's like as a Liberal, but I'm not prepared to take that chance. He would never get my vote, ever.

G
 
skyservice_330
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:34 pm



Quoting A332 (Reply 13):
perhaps it's time for political parties to raise their own money through the usual grassroots methods... ie... $5 here, $10 there...

But what about parties that derive support from the working class? Should only those people that can afford to donate to a party be given a voice? Your pocketbook should not dictate whether or not your voice is heard in the democratic process.

Quoting A332 (Reply 13):

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 12):
Then again, over 60% of the country DIDN'T vote for Harper. Interesting times.

Same can be said about the Chretien majorities... the majority didn't vote for him either.

A good point. Our electoral system, combined with the number of parties at the national level, makes a 'true' majority almost impossible to achieve.

Quoting Canuckpaxguy (Reply 14):
This country needs LEADERSHIP. Prime Minister Harper may be fine statesman, but he's no leader.

Agreed. I think Harper is a great statesman and very prime ministerial, but with this whole party funding debacle he has shown that he is more interested in partisan politics than leading the country and finding consensus in historic economic times.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 15):
Harper's being a dick about this issue, since it wasn't in the throne speech or the election

A good point. The party funding issue was not mentioned in the election campaign and made, from what I remember, no appearance in the CPC platform from 2006 or 2008. Combined with the fact that it was buried in a bill on the economy, and really does nothing in terms of a cost saving measure, it becomes clear that the whole issue is smelly and self-serving. Jamie Carroll put it best in a piece to the Toronto Star:

"While wider issues have obviously arisen around the economic update, cynical attacks on your political enemies, masquerading as austerity measures simply do not pass the smell test in a democracy as vibrant as Canada."

From: http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/545691

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 15):
Harper sees this as a chance to bury the Liberals for a generation, and he's prepared to take risks to achieve that.

Tom Flanagan, a brain trust in the conservative movement and confidant of Harper has made it clear that the long term goal of the PM is to obliterate the Liberal party, both financially and literally, and this is a perfect example of him using the powers entrusted to him as PM, and the legislative power of the government, to do so.

Quoting A332 (Reply 18):
Ignatieff should have been leader of the Liberal party right from the start... how he managed to lose to Dion is beyond me.

Agreed. Two words: Gerrard Kennedy. I liked Kennedy, but once he was out he should have gone to Iggy, not Dion.

Quoting Canuckpaxguy (Reply 19):
Voting in Bob Rae would be disastrous for the Liberals.

Agreed. Voting Rae in as leader would hand Ontario to the CPC.

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 21):
This is looking more and more like a strategic blunder on the part of the PM.

 checkmark  If this coalition thing goes forward, and I am not convinced that it will, it will go down as one of the biggest cluster fu*ks by a PM in Canadian history. It will make Martins error of calling the Gomery Inquiry look like a spelling mistake.

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 22):
Back in 2004 I think, Stephen Harper, alongside Jack Layton and Gilles Duceppe wrote a letter to Adrienne Clarkson that should they topple the government, they would wish for her to consider the CPC propped up by the other two parties as a potential alternative before calling an election.

The fact that Harper signed that letter in 2004 strips him of any authority to talk about the sanctity of democracy and the need to earn power, not take it.

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 22):
I'm not so sure, as this is more than just an issue of political fundraising. This really has become an issue of confidence in the government.

Which is exactly why the opposition is still talking about toppling the government and forming a coalition. While the party funding issue was at play, the larger issue was/is their belief that the government does not understand the seriousness of the current economic situation. The fact that Harper and Flaherty have essentially been reading from different scripts and saying opposite things adds some credibility to their assertion.

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 24):
Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 12):
This is hilarious. Stephen 'leadership' Harper is backing down pretty fast. The opposition called him to task on his sneaky, partisan move and he is rolling over faster than a hooker on Saturday night. Freakin Hilarious. And does Flaherty even talk to the PM anymore? They seem to be saying completely opposite things.

Actually, what it is, is a desperate attempt at a party that is becoming more and more less important (libs), to hang on.

The Liberal Party of Canada is one of, if not the most, successful political parties in the western world. They may be down, but they are certainly not out. With a new leader, committed seriously to reforming the organization and financing of the party, the LPC could again form a majority one day. That, however, is a long way away. Dion, in my opinion, took the party too far to the left. They need to reorient themselves as the party that existed under Chretien/Martin, a party that accepts and embraces the legitimacy of the market economy and financial prudence, but also understands that their IS a role for the federal government in Canadian society.
 
skyservice_330
Posts: 1383
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:55 pm

One element of the fiscal update that has been buried by all this talk of confidence votes and coalitions, which I want to hear more about from all parties, is the part that commits the government to finding savings of around $2 billion from the sale of Crown assets. I would like to know which assets they have in mind. Is it wise to sell capital assets as a way to balance an operating budget? Especially when, in the current economic situation, acceptable prices may not manifest themselves?
 
canuckpaxguy
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:31 pm

RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:33 pm



Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 26):
checkmark If this coalition thing goes forward, and I am not convinced that it will, it will go down as one of the biggest cluster fu*ks by a PM in Canadian history. It will make Martins error of calling the Gomery Inquiry look like a spelling mistake.

That is one of the most beautifully put comments in this thread ... and very true.
G
 
A346Dude
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:23 am

RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:34 am

The plot thickens: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl....wottawa1130/BNStory/National/home

I really should have taken those million-to-one odds on "Dion becomes PM" last week.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
A346Dude
Posts: 1161
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:08 am

New reports that Ignatieff is to be leader of the coalition:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/b...pm-in-a-liberal-led-coalition.aspx

This thing just keeps getting crazier.

[Edited 2008-11-30 21:09:03]
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
canuckpaxguy
Posts: 1482
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:20 am



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 29):
The plot thickens

I cringed the whole way through that article. Jack Layton and Stefan Dion??? May God have mercy on our nation! I'd sooner have Dubya at the helm!!!

I'm getting really annoyed with the Liberals. I used to be a strong supporter of the federal Liberal party, and really, really wanted to vote for them in October's election. Like many Canadians though, I just couldn't do it. They not only didn't earn my vote despite my blind loyalty to them, they forced me to vote for a party (and a PM) with whom I have very little faith.

The Liberals scored fewer votes in this past election than they did when they got demoted to opposition status ... and yet they still have not learned their lesson! Through our ballots, we said, "We're not very happy with the Liberal Party of Canada". Through our ballots, we also said "We're really not convinced the Conservatives are right either". Instead of regrouping and emerging as a stronger, more cohesive party, with an actual plan that might have been reviewed by people other than Dion's patronizers, the Liberals have taken their scheming to a new level in a desperate attempt to reclaim power.

This coalition government is not good for Canada. Canadians don't want the Liberals in power until they clean up their act and give Canadians a reason to vote for them! As for their coalition partners, I am most certainly opposed to Jack Layton making any decisions that may affect me. (We Torontonians were thrilled when he and his wife left municipal politics and went to work with the NDP where they could do no more harm!) And who really believes that a coalition government would get ANYTHING passed anyway? Does this mean the carbon tax is back on the table?

The Conservatives were elected because they were the lesser of the evils, not because they stole the hearts and minds of Canadians. The idea that two of the greater evils should merge and lead the country is nauseating. Do the party leaders honestly think Canadians would be happy with such a moronic and irresponsible stunt?

To the Liberal Party I say this: "Let the Conservatives do what they need to do to manage the country and spend the next two years cleaning up your own house. If you (the party) lead Canada into a non-functional coalition government for the next 30 months, Canadians WILL remember when it comes time to vote again, and you will be sorry."

G
 
canuckpaxguy
Posts: 1482
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:22 am



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 30):
New reports that Ignatieff is to be leader of the coalition:

Hmmm.... well that's at least one step in the right direction.
I think I'll go donate money to his campaign.

G
 
A346Dude
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:23 am

RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:24 am



Quoting Canuckpaxguy (Reply 32):
Hmmm.... well that's at least one step in the right direction.
I think I'll go donate money to his campaign.

A PM that not only wasn't elected by the Canadian people, but wasn't even elected by his own party?

This is dangerous territory as far as I'm concerned.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
Arrow
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:57 pm

This is bizarre. During the worst global economic crisis since the depression, our politicians are hell-bent on destroying the country rather than trying to chart a path through the mess. For months we've been saying (correctly) that ours is one of the strongest, most stable economies in the world; that we didn't do the stupid things the Americans did, and that we can probably weather it better than any of the other OECD members.

Today, our market is down 700 points, and the loonie is in a freefall. Here's a comment in today's Globe from an analyst:

“The turmoil generated by the uncertainty of these events in combination with the unknown of a new three-party coalition could prompt flight-to-safety flows in Canada,” said TD Securities Eric Lascelles in a research note. “The longer-term implications are far too uncertain to speculate about now, and rely not just upon whether Canada gets a new government but also on how any new hypothetical coalition government would govern, and how long it would last.”

The Conservatives were on the right track. Anyone with half a brain knows you can't push ahead with a financial stimulus package (and that's assuming you actually need one) until it's clear what the Americans are going to do. Our economy, like it or not, is joined at the hip with theirs. Waiting on that is the prudent thing to do.

But that doofus Harper decides to corner the opposition and poke it in the eye with a stick. Cornered rats are very dangerous, and now he knows that. Now they are backtracking at warp speed. Too late, you bozos. If I were a Conservative foot soldier I'd be demanding a leadership review to be completed by Friday, and get this arrogant idiot turfed out.

Now we have the prospect of a coalition led by the Liberals -- who just turned in the worst election performance in their entire history; the NDP, who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the power levers (Jack Layton for finance minister? migawd); and the Bloc Quebecois, whose sole goal in life is to break up the country. It's a menage a trois made in hell.

Stephane Dion as Prime Minister? May god have mercy on our souls. I guess he looks marginally better in the wake of Harper's sudden descent into insanity, but jeez. I'm thinking maybe a Western Canada independence movement is the answer.

Will someone please wake me up and tell me it was just a horrible nightmare?

End of rant
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
A332
Topic Author
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:59 pm

Oh who could forget these firm statements on Jack Layton and his abilities from Stephane Dion just a few weeks ago...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o0IEq_1kto

Wow... what happened over the course of a few weeks that would have one change his tune so quickly? Hmmmm?
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
yooyoo
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:08 pm



Quoting A332 (Reply 35):

You can't trust a politician as far as you can throw them. I'm dumbfounded by all this $hit.
I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:37 pm

I've never been a proponent of anarchy, but at this point, I think everyone against this should without paying your 5% GST on purchases if this government goes through.

I will NOT support a undemocratic coup of my country, and I will do everything in MY power to ensure that these people get thrown so far out of power, that they will never be re-elected again.

Dion's own party turned a blind eye to him following the election, and now we're supposed to believe that they're behind him?! Bob Rae running as a Liberal? Come on.

What we should do, is *we* should rise up against the new coalition government. Stop paying taxes.. Protest in the streets, fill the Capitol with millions of people, throwing rocks and stones.

If the Governor General SERVES HER PEOPLE with dignity and DUTY, she will recognize that the MAJORITY of Canadians do NOT support this coalition, and put a stop to it immediately.

If she does, and if I was Harper, I'd call another election. And all my election campaign would be would be Dion, Duceppe, and Layton's video replays attacking each other during the previous election campaign.

I am tired of this bullshi*, and I really hope that people decide to stand firm on this.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:40 pm

It amazes me how few Canadians know how their government works. A coalition is completely legal and democratic. How quickly Harper forgets he has a MINORITY (AKA the opposition has more votes than he does), and how quickly everyone else forgets that HARPER wanted to do exactly this four years ago.

And Based on the election results, the MAJORITY of Canadians DO support a coalition.
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lnglive1011yyz
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:54 pm



Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 38):
It amazes me how few Canadians know how their government works. A coalition is completely legal and democratic. How quickly Harper forgets he has a MINORITY (AKA the opposition has more votes than he does), and how quickly everyone else forgets that HARPER wanted to do exactly this four years ago.

And Based on the election results, the MAJORITY of Canadians DO support a coalition.

The majority of Canadians voted for the Conservative Party.. Hence why they have the most combined votes in the House.

I realize that a Coalition Government is legal, and is the way our system is designed... but the Conservatives have NOT been allowed to govern, and the people (US) have NOT had the ability to voice either our approval or disapproval of their upcoming legislation....

What is undemocratic is the nature by which the coalition government is being formed. Coalition Governments are designed for replacing Governments by which the people have deemed as having a loss of confidence in. We haven't even had a chance to let them GOVERN yet!

*That* is the clear difference.

Stand up for your rights Canadians!!

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
A332
Topic Author
Posts: 1421
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:04 pm



Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 38):
And Based on the election results, the MAJORITY of Canadians DO support a coalition.

This is my favorite liberal spin... the election results.

Here's the deal...

The Liberals & NDP did not merge their parties prior to the election nor did they campaign on a coalition platform (the video excerpt demonstrates Dion's disdain for the NDP platform). Therefore, the majority of the votes did not go to these two (as you would have us believe)... the majority of the votes went to the Conservatives.

So no matter how you try to spin it, the Conservatives were the one single party that received the majority of the votes cast.

If you want to combine numbers, you need to combine parties. We did just so a few years back and have been successful since... maybe it's time for the left to do the same.

Oh wait... you are ideologically different from the NDP... so that wouldn't wash. Good to see who makes the right bed-friend when the opportunity arises!

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 39):
Stand up for your rights Canadians!!

I'll be out in full force at City Hall in Calgary on Saturday... I urge all fellow Canadians who are opposed to this immoral power grab to do the same... protests are being held across the nation this weekend!
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:13 pm

How can you say the majority of the votes went to the PC's. If that were true they would have a majority. No spin. That's the way it is.
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lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:23 pm



Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 41):
How can you say the majority of the votes went to the PC's. If that were true they would have a majority. No spin. That's the way it is.

Because in Canada you vote for the PARTY. the conservative party won the most seats for an individual party!

When you went and cast your vote for the Liberals, you didn't vote for the NDP!!!!! It's so goddamned simple and it's insane that *YOU* can't see this!?

If the NDP and the liberals CAMPAINED together on a coalition government, then that's one thing! But they were at each others THROATS for the entire election!?

Conservatives - 143 seats
Liberals -- 77
NDP -- 37
Bloc -- 49

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
A332
Topic Author
Posts: 1421
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:58 am

RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:25 pm



Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 41):
How can you say the majority of the votes went to the PC's. If that were true they would have a majority. No spin. That's the way it is.

Conservatives = 37%
Liberal = 26%
NDP = 18%
Bloc = 10%
Green = 6%
Others = 3%

Which SINGLE party received the majority of the votes?

Neither the Liberals or the NDP received more than the Conservatives. To use your logic, 74% of Canadians did not pick a Liberal government and 82% did not support the NDP... no matter how you spit it out, the Conservatives DID get the majority of the vote in October and therefore the voice of the majority of the electorate must be heard!

Like I said, you want a Liberal/NDP government... merge your parties and put it to the electorate. It would be interesting to see what kind of results would emerge... I guarantee the Conservatives would take a majority, no question.
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:33 pm

majority means more than half. No one party got the majority of seats in the house or majority of votes.
 
YYZatcboy
Posts: 1183
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:15 am

RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:35 pm

Popular Vote

Con 37.65%
Lib 26.26%
NDP 18.18%
Bloc 9.98%

It's a lot closer than you make it seem.

In Canada you don't vote for the PARTY. You vote for the person you want to represent your riding. Do you think this is the USA?

I'm not saying that I voted for one party of the other, All I'm saying is the three parties combined have much more support than the PC.

As you can plainly see above, the PC's did NOT win the majority of the votes, if they did they would be over 50% of the popular vote. Nor did they win the majority of the seats, erego, they do not represent a majority of Canadian votes in any sense of the word. Again, Hence a minority government.

I never said that the three parties campaigned on a platform of any sort. I did not bring it up. All I said was the three parties combined (who have the majority of the popular vote, and the majority of seats) have more support, and can claim to represent more people than the PC's can.

You voiced your approval/disapproval by appointing someone to speak for you last election. You have no further say unless you contact your MP directly.

Please stop assuming who I voted for, you clearly have no idea.
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lnglive1011yyz
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:40 pm



Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 45):

Con 37.65%
Lib 26.26%
NDP 18.18%
Bloc 9.98%

It's a lot closer than you make it seem.

What are you not getting? Yes, the ruling government has a minority government, but NDP voters did NOT vote for liberal's to run the government, and neither did Liberals for NDP!

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 45):

In Canada you don't vote for the PARTY. You vote for the person you want to represent your riding. Do you think this is the USA?

....who is running for a party. When you vote for your local MP, are they not representing a party?

And thanks, I know the parliamentary system very well thank you. I don't need the pointer in Grade 10 Civics..

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 45):
I'm not saying that I voted for one party of the other, All I'm saying is the three parties combined have much more support than the PC.

The parliamentary system is not designed so that the non-ruling parties can join together to overthrow the government just because they FEEL like it and they want to run the country?! The Coalition Government feature of the parliamentary system is for when the CANADIAN PUBLIC are unhappy with the legislation being put forth by the ruling party. The current government hasn't even had a chance to put legislation THROUGH!? How can you vote on confidence based on soemthign that hasn't even been put forth yet?!

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 45):
You voiced your approval/disapproval by appointing someone to speak for you last election. You have no further say unless you contact your MP directly.

Don't you DARE tell me whether I have a say or not???!? I vote in every election, and that gives me the right just like it gives you the right if you voted, just like it gives everyone who votes a right...

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 45):

Please stop assuming who I voted for, you clearly have no idea.

It was an analogy.. I could care less who you voted for. But I guess you can't seem to read past that.

I felt the same way about the coalition gov't that Harper talked about 4 years ago, and I would feel the same if the tables were turned.

The liberals/bloc/ndp are misusing an important piece of legislation in the charter, just because THEY are not happy with the outcome of the election.

This is ALL about democracy and respect of the system.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
A332
Topic Author
Posts: 1421
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:58 am

RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:55 pm



Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 45):
Popular Vote

Con 37.65%
Lib 26.26%
NDP 18.18%
Bloc 9.98%

It's a lot closer than you make it seem.

Same numbers I put up... makes no difference. Conservatives got the highest vote total of the individual parties.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 45):
In Canada you don't vote for the PARTY. You vote for the person you want to represent your riding. Do you think this is the USA?

Uhhh... each candidate represents a political party unless they are independent.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 45):
I'm not saying that I voted for one party of the other, All I'm saying is the three parties combined have much more support than the PC.

So what? That means nothing. It wasn't the Conservatives vs the Lib/NDP/Bloc/Green on the ballot I completed back in October. All were individual.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 45):
I never said that the three parties campaigned on a platform of any sort. I did not bring it up. All I said was the three parties combined (who have the majority of the popular vote, and the majority of seats) have more support, and can claim to represent more people than the PC's can.

While the action is legal, it is completely unethical and immoral given the fact Canadians have not had a chance to judge this government as they have barely begun to govern!

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 45):
You voiced your approval/disapproval by appointing someone to speak for you last election. You have no further say unless you contact your MP directly.

Last time I checked, this was a free country and I have the right to say whatever I want!
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
threepoint
Posts: 1294
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:13 am



Quoting A332 (Reply 13):
Funny, the Conservatives stand to lose the most funding through this cut... perhaps it's time for political parties to raise their own money through the usual grassroots methods... ie... $5 here, $10 there...

The original point was correct. Yes, the Cons would lose the most subsidies, but that's not the point. They are flush with cash after having raised money grass-roots style as per the old Reformers. Harper's intent is to crush and bury the Liberal party, only seven weeks after promising to be more bipartisan. Hence this movement by the coalition.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Lightweight Canucks. Can't even pull off a proper sex scandal!

That's because what's scandalous in other nations is de rigeur here.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 15):
Of course, if he loses, he's out of work the next day.

I think regardless of the outcome, Harper's days as Conservative leader are numbered. He has made a colossal blunder.

Quoting A332 (Reply 18):
Ignatieff should have been leader of the Liberal party right from the start... how he managed to lose to Dion is beyond me.

Yes. Thanks Mr. Kennedy.

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 21):
My guess is over the next week the opposition gradually backs down on their threat to topple the government.

No they will not. They are in too far now.

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 24):

Frankly, I'm quite sick of this bulls*it. This really is counter productive to the business of the nation, and at a time of Economic disparity and global recession, it is disgusting, and I hope they get what they deserve.

One could argue those same points on both sides.: The coalition for playing games at an inopportune time. And the Harperites, who focused on being vengeful and mean rather than working in a cooperative fashion to get things done.

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 37):
I will NOT support a undemocratic coup of my country...
I realize that a Coalition Government is legal, and is the way our system is designed... but the Conservatives have NOT been allowed to govern, and the people (US) have NOT had the ability to voice either our approval or disapproval of their upcoming legislation....
What is undemocratic is the nature by which the coalition government is being formed. Coalition Governments are designed for replacing Governments by which the people have deemed as having a loss of confidence in. We haven't even had a chance to let them GOVERN yet!

This is an unconventional yet completely legal, democratic and with precedent. It may not be the wisest of manoevres, but it is effective and within the bounds of our Constitution. And the Conservatives have been in power since 2006, so they have had ample time to display leadership and govern accordingly.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
A346Dude
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:23 am

RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:32 am

Constitutional crisis? I say bring it on. It may force us to face some tough questions that wouldn't be touched otherwise.

Either way this goes down, it is almost inevitable that the Governor General will be forced to make a unilateral decision that could affect the direction of this country immensely. Why do we have an unelected Governor General who wields incredible power to decide the outcome of this farce? What qualifications does she have other than once being a CBC journalist? Even if she was the most respected, yet somehow non-partisan person in Canada, why should any one person have such broad yet ridiculously vague powers? I was under the impression we had a democracy in this country.

I still stand by my comment that this coalition will not go ahead. Something's gonna give. If the Liberals and NDP together held more seats than the Conservatives, or if the Bloc were not involved, it would be a different story. But this is too unpalatable to too many Canadians.

[Edited 2008-12-02 16:37:06]
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