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connies4ever
Posts: 3393
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:45 am



Quoting Jamincan (Reply 22):
Back in 2004 I think, Stephen Harper, alongside Jack Layton and Gilles Duceppe wrote a letter to Adrienne Clarkson that should they topple the government, they would wish for her to consider the CPC propped up by the other two parties as a potential alternative before calling an election. And quite frankly, the Bloc Quebecois have as legitimate voice in parliament as every other MP. Who cares if they prop up the government? They prop up the current Conservative government anytime they vote with them as well.

I've heard that story, but I've not seen the letter. But I HAVE seen the signatures of the Three Amigos on the letter to be delivered to HE Ms. Jean.

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 23):
OK, but how exactly is a coalition of two parties who hated each other 2 months ago (and still do), propped up by another that wants to tear apart the country - oh, and which has no leader to speak of - going to survive more than a couple days as the government?

Mr. Dion during the election said he would NEVER form a coalition with Mr. Layton (let alone the Blocheads).

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 27):
One element of the fiscal update that has been buried by all this talk of confidence votes and coalitions, which I want to hear more about from all parties, is the part that commits the government to finding savings of around $2 billion from the sale of Crown assets. I would like to know which assets they have in mind. Is it wise to sell capital assets as a way to balance an operating budget? Especially when, in the current economic situation, acceptable prices may not manifest themselves?

Agree. Once you sell the assets, they're gone forever. It's a stupid one-time accounting exericse to attempt to balance the budget for next fiscal year. It won't work as the revenue stream is going to go down so fast they (whomever...) will run a deficit of IMHO in the $8-10B region. In fact my company (Fed Crown) may be one of the candidates.

Quoting A332 (Reply 35):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o0IEq_1kto

Loved it!

An interesting possibility is that Harper goes directly to the Queen to have Michaelle Jean removed as G-G (the Queen can do this) and then he appoints someone more receptive to the CPC. Then he loses a confidence vote, the writ is dropped, and (...drum roll...) we get ANOTHER minority.

This is politics in Canada these days. Makes me pine for Trudeau. At least you knew SOMEONE was in charge.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:00 am



Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 38):
And Based on the election results, the MAJORITY of Canadians DO support a coalition.

http://www.62percentmajority.ca/

I never got asked if I supported a coalition and neither did any of my fellow Canadians. Is this an example of the irresponsible propaganda Canadians should look forward to from a coalition government? Do the three stooges really think we're dumb enough to believe this crap?

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 45):
In Canada you don't vote for the PARTY. You vote for the person you want to represent your riding.

My university thesis proves otherwise.

The name of the person running in your riding is on your local ballot. It should never be mistaken that people make their decisions solely on their local MP contest. An overwhelming number of Canadian voters can't name the MP in their riding .... or the name of their riding for that matter. Some Canadians vote for the party; some for the party leader, but an overwhelming MINORITY vote for their local MP.

On the bright side, the political apathy we Canadians are known for may be on the decline!
G
 
yooyoo
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:39 pm

For anybody that is interested?

http://www.rallyforcanada.ca/
I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
 
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yowza
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:35 pm

I would have preferred that our politics stayed dull. We don't need this right now and the fact that the GG is in such a prominent position all of a sudden worries me.

YOWza
 
A346Dude
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:01 pm



Quoting Canuckpaxguy (Reply 51):
http://www.62percentmajority.ca/

Why don't they take their 62% majority to the polls? Surely it would be a landslide and erase any questions of the coalition's legitimacy.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:42 pm



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 54):
Why don't they take their 62% majority to the polls? Surely it would be a landslide and erase any questions of the coalition's legitimacy.

If that's what it comes down to, then maybe it's worth the money to run another election. Maybe you could suggest that to Governor General Jean.

Quoting YooYoo (Reply 52):
http://www.rallyforcanada.ca/

Andreas, that's a whole other can of worms! While I agree with their stance on the proposed coalition government, I do not agree with the scare tactics and conspiracy theory approach they're using --- it's cheap politics. "...destroying Confederation"?? Who comes up with this crap?

G
 
yooyoo
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:59 pm



Quoting Canuckpaxguy (Reply 55):
Andreas, that's a whole other can of worms! While I agree with their stance on the proposed coalition government, I do not agree with the scare tactics and conspiracy theory approach they're using --- it's cheap politics. "...destroying Confederation"?? Who comes up with this crap

Other than joining a Facebook group, that's the best i could come up with.  Wink

This is a serious issue and part of my frustration is, what can i do to voice my opinion? I thought i did something by casting my vote 8 weeks ago and that appears to have meant nothing.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 53):
We don't need this right now and the fact that the GG is in such a prominent position all of a sudden worries me.

 checkmark 
I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
 
LH423
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:53 pm



Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 37):
I will NOT support a undemocratic coup of my country, and I will do everything in MY power to ensure that these people get thrown so far out of power, that they will never be re-elected again.

You show me where in the Constitution it says that this is strictly forbidden. Give up? Yeah, that's because you can't. There's nothing undemocratic about it. In fact, I think it's democracy at its finest. With this coalition, the parties that received 62% of the support of the population have come together on an agreed set of ideas to work together (something the Cons promised but in week two have completely reversed on).

Let's face it, at the end of the day while parties may bicker and take pot-shots at each other, there is one major ideological split, and that's left and right. Even though the Liberals and the NDP and the Bloc may disagree about things (yes, including the future composition of Canada), they ultimately sit on one side of that divide from the Conservatives. If those parties can temporarily set aside their differences to come together to represent their side of that ideological divide (and, coincidentally, the side that the true majority of Canadians sit on), then this is a wonderful boon for democracy even if it makes things a little shaky for the time being.

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 39):
The majority of Canadians voted for the Conservative Party.

No. A PLURALITY voted for the Cons. Big difference. In our system all you need is the most number of votes to win, not a majority of votes.

Second, people need to realize that while a coalition government is not common in Canada, it's the modus operandi in Europe. First-past-the-post voting is not one that favours multiple parties. While in the UK there are several parties, at the end of the day the bulk of the system comes down to the Conservatives and Labour with a sprinkling of Liberal Democrats (much like Canada was prior to the creation of the Bloc Québécois). Same thing in Australia. You have Labor and the Liberal/National coalition (ooh, there's that word again. Yep, even in Australia, the right needs to join up in order to get elected). It's also why the US grew around a 2-party system.

Meanwhile in places like Germany it's nearly impossible to get elected without a coalition! Now, yes, you can use the argument that we're not in Europe. Fine, that's true. However, we still have a parliamentary democracy and a parliamentary democracy says that the ruling party must have the confidence in the house. The Conservatives, whether you agree or not, have lost that confidence. There's a good op-ed in the Globe that basically outlines all of Harper's options.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen this coalition formed on election night. The argument that people didn't vote for a Lib/NDP ticket doesn't float because in a coalition the parties don't campaign together but formalize their agreement after the votes are cast. That said, I think having had this in the works from the get-go would throw out some of the arguments that this is just a power grab from some sore losers.

Now, my personal feelings toward this, despite being in favour of it, are that it's something relatively untried in Canada. And when things aren't a regular feature of political life, people don't know the ins-and-outs of how to deal with them and keep them going. Look at the minority government in Québec. The first minority government 130 years in Québec and it lasted 18 months (though, the the standard for minority governments in Canada is 18-24 months). So, as much as I support the coalition, I do have reservations about how long it will last. That said, I won't miss Harper one bit. He's as divisive and partisan, if not more so, than George Bush, and we can see how well the US was doing politically before the recent election. Then again, maybe we should just let Harper self-destruct. Hmmm  mischievous 

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
TheCol
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:11 pm



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 50):
An interesting possibility is that Harper goes directly to the Queen to have Michaelle Jean removed as G-G (the Queen can do this) and then he appoints someone more receptive to the CPC. Then he loses a confidence vote, the writ is dropped, and (...drum roll...) we get ANOTHER minority.

It's highly unlikely this will happen. Even if Harper appeals to the Queen, which would spell the end of his political career, she will probably let things play out as our constitutional policy dictates.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 53):
We don't need this right now and the fact that the GG is in such a prominent position all of a sudden worries me.

Would you rather prefer the House stay in a permanent stalemate, while we are at war and facing a major recession?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
A332
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:06 pm



Quoting LH423 (Reply 57):
You show me where in the Constitution it says that this is strictly forbidden. Give up? Yeah, that's because you can't. There's nothing undemocratic about it. In fact, I think it's democracy at its finest. With this coalition, the parties that received 62% of the support of the population have come together on an agreed set of ideas to work together (something the Cons promised but in week two have completely reversed on).

No one is arguing that it is illegal or unconstitutional. It is however, unethical and immoral. The Liberals & NDP have been plotting and waiting for a moment to seize power and all it took was the idea of slashing public funding of political parties...

Unfortunately, that doesn't fly when the current government was put forth by the people just a few weeks ago.

Quoting LH423 (Reply 57):
Let's face it, at the end of the day while parties may bicker and take pot-shots at each other, there is one major ideological split, and that's left and right. Even though the Liberals and the NDP and the Bloc may disagree about things (yes, including the future composition of Canada), they ultimately sit on one side of that divide from the Conservatives. If those parties can temporarily set aside their differences to come together to represent their side of that ideological divide (and, coincidentally, the side that the true majority of Canadians sit on), then this is a wonderful boon for democracy even if it makes things a little shaky for the time being.

So how come Dion campaigned against any deal/coalition with the NDP just two months ago, stating that their fiscal policy is out of step...?

This coalition won't be productive nor function in the best interests of Canadians... look who the power broker is! Quebec separatists calling the shots... that's democracy??

Quoting LH423 (Reply 57):
Personally, I would have liked to have seen this coalition formed on election night. The argument that people didn't vote for a Lib/NDP ticket doesn't float because in a coalition the parties don't campaign together but formalize their agreement after the votes are cast. That said, I think having had this in the works from the get-go would throw out some of the arguments that this is just a power grab from some sore losers.

I completely disagree 100%. The Liberals and NDP should have made their plans known from the get-go, so that disillusioned voters from each of those respective parties were able to make the right call. I have addressed several voters from each party who support opposing the formation of this coalition... feeling that each of their leaders have sold out for their own selfish lust for power and not the good of the people.

Best bet: Merge the Liberals and NDP and put the new party to the electorate. The PC & Canadian Alliance did this several years ago with successful results.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 58):
Would you rather prefer the House stay in a permanent stalemate, while we are at war and facing a major recession?

I'm more than happy to go back to the polls again. The opposition is ready to throw $30B out the window without much thought... what's another $300M for another election?

At any rate, I am certain the Conservatives would pick up their majority this time around because there are far more people opposed to the coalition than for it.
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
Caymanair
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:11 pm



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 49):
Either way this goes down, it is almost inevitable that the Governor General will be forced to make a unilateral decision that could affect the direction of this country immensely. Why do we have an unelected Governor General who wields incredible power to decide the outcome of this farce? What qualifications does she have other than once being a CBC journalist? Even if she was the most respected, yet somehow non-partisan person in Canada, why should any one person have such broad yet ridiculously vague powers? I was under the impression we had a democracy in this country.

The GG is very important, and I'm very happy she's there, as she seems to be the only level headed person in this whole saga. If anyone is going to make the best choice in this case it is her. That's what shes there for. You wouldnt want her to be subject to the whims and fancies of a political party or even the voting population.
 
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yowza
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:30 pm



Quoting TheCol (Reply 58):

Would you rather prefer the House stay in a permanent stalemate, while we are at war and facing a major recession?

Who are we at war with? Please don't say terrorism...

As for recession the "right" was doing just fine given the circumstances. Do you honestly think that the Bloc, the Liberals AND the NDP can agree on enough important issues and pull in the same direction to do some good? Any good? If you believe so, you're FAR more optimistic than me. So we're trading one near stalemate for a definite stalemate. This is not even considering the things the coalition will have to do to appease the Bloc.

Throw into the mix that Dion is a plonker and soon to be replaced and the picture quickly looks less glossy. The mechanism that facilitates and permits the action in play right now is for extreme circumstances, the current use is a vulgar bastardization of our democratic process and this is coming from a center-left standing Canadian...


YOWza
 
skyservice_330
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:51 pm



Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 37):
I will NOT support a undemocratic coup of my country,

I would not support one either and I am thankful that THIS IS NOT a coup.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 38):
It amazes me how few Canadians know how their government works.

It amazes me as well. However, it is just part of a trend of Canadians, generally, being disinterested in their politics and their history. It is truly sad.

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 39):
the Conservatives have NOT been allowed to govern, and the people (US) have NOT had the ability to voice either our approval or disapproval of their upcoming legislation....

The opposition should have used the talk of a coalition as leverage and at the minimum allowed Harper to present a budget to parliament. That being said, they could not support the partisan measures included in the economic update. Once Harper showed that he was willing to backtrack on the controversial measures in the update, they should have backed off as well.

Quoting A332 (Reply 59):

I'm more than happy to go back to the polls again. The opposition is ready to throw $30B out the window without much thought... what's another $300M for another election?

At any rate, I am certain the Conservatives would pick up their majority this time around because there are far more people opposed to the coalition than for it.

If the GG refuses to prorogue parliament and the government falls next week, and she doesn't allow the coalition to form government (thus forcing us back to the polls) I would bet money that the Libs and NDP would be punished dearly for forcing another election. As noted by Peter Russel in the Star today "A steady diet of elections (4 in 4 years if we had another one) is not healthy for parliamentary democracy."
 
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yowza
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:57 pm



Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 62):
I would not support one either and I am thankful that THIS IS NOT a coup.

A coup is not the same as a coup d’etat. This is in fact the dictionary definition of a coup.

YOWza
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:12 am

There is a growing online petition against the coalition

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/CANADIAN/petition.html.

The majority of Canadian DO NOT support this coalition. Think outside of Ontario and Quebec for once.

Even Manitoba is pissed off.
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:53 am



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 64):

Even Manitoba is pissed off.

why wouldnt manitobans be PO'd?

As was mentioned, the ONLY thing this is going to do is fuel the quebec sovereignty debate, elevate the dischord between east and west, and those are bad for canada. Healing the wounds from this may take a long time. and it will hurt the canadian economy in the short term. I had meetings with customers today and they are bracing for next week when they feel the dollar tanks--them and us purchase goods in USD.

The liberals tanked in teh last election, why on earth does Dion think canadians have given him a pass to become PM? Yeah, we can see that as the votes are added together, they do have the majority of the votes, but it was a different situation and people were voting for individual parties(or however most canadians vote).

I guess this really goes towards what we as canadians perceive as our government. While our constitution stipulates that the government can govern as long as it has the confidence of the house, Harper's conservatives, by all estimates, have lost this. This is where the grey area is. Should, as the law and constitution allows, dion and co be able to form a government even if Canadians do not support it? How can we really know without an election with the coalition vs. conservatives? From what i have read, the GG has to take into account what the people of the country want.

While i understand what is going on, and do believe it is legal, it just feels slimy to me. As was mentioned, harper has been poking the opposition for ages, and they have probably had this in the works for some time looking for a trigger to pull.

I don't envy the GG right now, but i think, although unelected and not 'trained' in this, she will do the right thing.

One thing is for sure, we are going through history like most canadians have never seen before.
 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:31 am



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 64):
There is a growing online petition against the coalition

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/CANADIAN/petition.html.

The majority of Canadian DO NOT support this coalition. Think outside of Ontario and Quebec for once.

Hey Kris, I don't think your link works ... and who's saying Ontario supports it?
 
A332
Topic Author
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:48 am



Quoting Canuckpaxguy (Reply 66):
and who's saying Ontario supports it?

I agree. It's more like Toronto, Montreal & Vancouver support it.
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:50 am



Quoting A332 (Reply 67):
Vancouver

Most people here in Vancouver do not support it by the sounds of things!
Keep the shinny side up!
 
A332
Topic Author
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:58 am



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 68):
Most people here in Vancouver do not support it by the sounds of things!

It would be third place... but definitely a key area of support considering the concentration of Liberals and NDP in the region.

Interestingly enough, a Liberal MP has signalled his desire not to support the coalition. All we need is another 9 to vote against/abstain and we could survive the confidence vote.

http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/BreakingNews/article/411713
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
A346Dude
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:26 am

This coalition is finished. If Harper prorogues it will not last to Christmas.

Even if he doesn't, or if the GG refuses, it would not be that difficult to poach 9 votes from the opposition. There are already indications that privately, a lot of Liberals are against the coalition (for good reason, as it would be a disaster for their party). Even the Liberals' "wise men" are publicly expressing concern, notably John Manley.

This whole thing is like a mini-Cold War. It started out with a small but highly provocative gesture, followed by each side raising the stakes higher and higher. Now it's totally out of control: each side is convinced the crisis is entirely the other's fault, and neither has an honourable way to back down. The only thing that will stop it is the prospect of mutually assured destruction if it goes ahead.

[Edited 2008-12-03 21:31:35]
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:41 am



Quoting A332 (Reply 69):
It would be third place... but definitely a key area of support considering the concentration of Liberals and NDP in the region.

The problem though is that alot of us in the West do not like the Bloc, the fact that the coalition requires support from the Bloc will turn many Western Candians of the thought of the coalition.
Keep the shinny side up!
 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:58 am



Quoting A332 (Reply 67):
I agree. It's more like Toronto, Montreal & Vancouver support it.

Sitting here in Toronto, I'm not so sure I agree with your comment.

I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to see what Her Excellency says.

G
 
Arrow
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:11 am



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 71):
The problem though is that alot of us in the West do not like the Bloc, the fact that the coalition requires support from the Bloc will turn many Western Candians of the thought of the coalition.

This has the potential to blow the country apart. This coalition is a Toronto-east construct perpetrated by one party (The Bloc) which has seats only in Quebec, another party (the Liberals) which has only 7 of the 92 seats in the four western provinces, and a third party (NDP) which had 19 of the 92 western seats. 66 of those seats were Conservative.

The leaders of the three parties are two Quebecers (one a separatist) and a guy from Toronto.

In other words, the region of the country that is keeping the economy from going in the dumpster is going to be at the mercy of a political cabal that doesn't give a s**t about anything west of Thunder Bay.

Here's a piece to think about:

Coalition could revive western alienation
Jason Fekete, with files from Renata D'Aliesio, Calgary Herald

"Maybe it's now time we have a threat (in Alberta).Maybe we do need a western separatist party to represent the West," argued George Gosbee, CEO of Tristone Capital, a brokerage and investment bank that specializes in the energy industry. "I've never seen so much rage in Calgary."

Gosbee, who's also vice-chairman of the Alberta Investment Management Corp.'s board of directors(which oversees Alberta's $70 billion in assets) said he was inundated with hundreds of e-mails and phone calls from oil-patch players and other business leaders who are outraged with the political shenanigans occurring in Ottawa.

Toppling the Conservative government -- less than two months after winning the election-- in favour of a Liberal-NDP coalition, with the support of the Bloc Quebecois, would spark unprecedented western alienation, he said.

"Everybody feels like this is to-tally a kick in the face to the West," he added. "I will be shocked if there's not a western-based separatist party that's formed."


http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...514537-4374-4267-9911-118583d08a9f
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
SpinalTap
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:44 am

From a (right-leaning) outsiders prospective the new coalition deal appears very amateur. The Liberal party doesn't even have permanent leader and why didn't they enter negotiations with the NDP and Bloc seven weeks ago if that was their intentions. For Stéphane Dion to say that the vote of no confidence is a result of the Conservatives plans for the economy but saying "Mr Layton does not understand the economy" and "We can not have a coalition with a party that has a platform that would be damaging for the economy, period!" during the recent election campaign surely shows he lacks credibility.

What would appear to prevent a majority government in Canada is the Bloc Québécois. Surely there must be a left/right split amongst their members. I can't imagine the right wing BQ members would be pleased with their confidence and supply deal with the Liberals/NDP??
"I get what they call a stipend, a stipend is like money but its such as small amount they don't really call it money"
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:34 am



Quoting Canuckpaxguy (Reply 66):

http://www.petitiononline.com/CANADIAN/petition.html

Try this one.

The majority of support I've seen on other forums and on TV were from Southern Ontario, especially the GTA.
 
connies4ever
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:59 am



Quoting TheCol (Reply 58):
It's highly unlikely this will happen. Even if Harper appeals to the Queen, which would spell the end of his political career, she will probably let things play out as our constitutional policy dictates.

Didn't say it was likely. Harper has consistently says he will use 'every legal means' -- and removing the G-G is one of them. Remember that she is a Liberal appointee, therefore Harper has no political coin invested in her, and both she and her husband consorted with the separatists is the 80s. In fact her husband only fairly recently distanced himself from them.

As for what the Quenn will do, I believe she did fire the Aussie G-G in the 70s on the recommendation of PM Gough Whitlam.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 58):
Would you rather prefer the House stay in a permanent stalemate, while we are at war and facing a major recession?

Afghanistan is not a war. WWII was a war. Afghanistan is a political sop to the Yanks.

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 62):
If the GG refuses to prorogue parliament and the government falls next week, and she doesn't allow the coalition to form government (thus forcing us back to the polls) I would bet money that the Libs and NDP would be punished dearly for forcing another election. As noted by Peter Russel in the Star today "A steady diet of elections (4 in 4 years if we had another one) is not healthy for parliamentary democracy."

That's my gut feeling, especially after Dion's pathetic TV speech last night. Sounded like he was trying to re-launch the Green Shift. The Libs couldn't even get it to the networks anywhere near the agreed time. And it was out-of-focus sometimes (kind of like the campaign). Not that Harper said anything new either.

BTW, voted Lib last time, not because I adore Dion, it's just I find the local CPC MP, Cheryl Gallant, loathsome.

My thinking is, if Harper gets the prorogue, he has 6 weeks or so to win over several Lib MPs, and I think he will. Maybe not to cross the floor, but to support confidence in the government. Look at it this way: if you're an Ignatieff supporter, do you really want to take power as the economy tanks, a big deficit looms, and unemployment leaps ? Let the Tories take the heat for it, get your guy in place, hit them with every parliamentary stick you can for a couple of years, and then, when the economy is turning around (one hopes), bring the government down and win the election in 2011.

If the Three Amigos do manage to be installed, I don't give them a snowball's chance to last more than three or four months.

But you know how much attention this has in the US or British or anyone else's media: zilch.

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 70):
This coalition is finished. If Harper prorogues it will not last to Christmas.

Even if he doesn't, or if the GG refuses, it would not be that difficult to poach 9 votes from the opposition. There are already indications that privately, a lot of Liberals are against the coalition (for good reason, as it would be a disaster for their party). Even the Liberals' "wise men" are publicly expressing concern, notably John Manley.


 checkmark 
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:49 pm

This just in....
"GG agrees to suspend Parliament: PMO"
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/12/04/harper-jean.html

"Gov. Gen. Michaëlle Jean has agreed with a request from Stephen Harper to suspend Parliament, the Prime Minister's Office told CBC News, a move that avoids a confidence vote set for Monday that could have toppled his minority government.

The announcement on Thursday comes after a two-hour meeting with Jean at Rideau Hall in which he asked her to prorogue, or suspend, the current parliamentary session until the end of January, when the Tories plan to table a budget.


G
 
A346Dude
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:21 pm

Did anyone else watch the GG's door for 2 hours? That's gotta be the most interesting door-related story of the year.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
Arrow
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:19 pm



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 78):
Did anyone else watch the GG's door for 2 hours? That's gotta be the most interesting door-related story of the year.

 rotfl 

Like watching for black (or white) smoke from the Vatican.

I think Harper has pulled it off. I didn't think he'd get his proroguies, but he did. And no restrictions, apparently.

By the time January 26 rolls around, the coalition will have disintegrated. Harper will have a throne speech followed immediately by a budget. The Coalition (assuming there is one) will have to support the throne speech, because if they turf Harper before the budget, they'll be seen as more interested in the politics than the welfare of the country.

If they vote against the budget -- that will mean an election. You can bet that Ignatieff (and probably Rae too, despite his current support for the coalition) will not want to fight an election with Dion still at the helm. That would be an automatic path to a Conservative majority.

Layton is done. This little scare has woken Canadians up to what life could be like with a bunch of economic ignoramuses with access to the control levers.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:07 pm



Quoting Arrow (Reply 79):
Layton is done.

Yeah right! We could only dream he and his wife would find other jobs! Sadly, I think the NDP socialists will support him even more for garnering more attention for the party than in any recent memory.

I had to turn off the TV because I couldn't stand watching Layton spew his nonsensical rhetoric about he'll have no choice but to vote against a revised budget; and how Harper "unilaterally thwarted democracy in Canada". Jack Layton is my one of my least favourite Canadians, second only to his wife Olivia. They are, in my opinion, two of the most phony politicians in our history and an embarrassment to Torontonians.

G
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:44 pm

Funny how Layton campaigned on getting rid of the "unethical" $50 billion corporate tax cuts. Now he's in the coalition and suddenly he's ok with the tax cuts.


NDP supporters: Layton just sold your kitchen table for a shot at power.
 
A332
Topic Author
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:45 pm

Check out the latest results of a CBC/EKos survey:

http://www.ekos.com/admin/articles/CBC4Dec2008.pdf

If a vote were held tomorrow, the Conservatives would grab 44% nationally... that's up 7% from the October election results and puts the Conservatives well into majority territory. ALL of the support has come at the expense of the Liberals and NDP...

Good to see the coalition is exactly what Canadians want to see! (dripping in sarcasm)

[Edited 2008-12-04 14:46:00]
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
Arrow
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:03 am



Quoting A332 (Reply 82):
Good to see the coalition is exactly what Canadians want to see!

Here's another one saying pretty well the same thing:

Political power struggle scaring Canadians: Poll

OTTAWA - Almost three-quarters of Canadians say they are "truly scared" for the future of the country and a solid majority say they would prefer another election to having the minority Conservative government replaced by a coalition led by Stephane Dion, a new Ipsos-Reid poll says.

The poll also indicates Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his Conservatives would romp to a majority victory with a record 46 per cent public support if an election were held today.


http://www.vancouversun.com/Politica...+Canadians+poll/1032813/story.html

I would guess that when the mixed-feelings group in the Liberal Party sees the polling results, they'll be hammering away at Dion to get out fast, and they'll be threatening to abstain on January 27 if Huey Dewie and Louie try to push the non-confidence vote. I also expect the number of MPs in that group will grow, probably because Ignatieff will come out of the closet on it. The NDP and Layton? They had nothing to lose, and they still have nothing to lose, no matter which way this goes because they have been and always will be a marginal party in federal politics. Layton saw a shot at getting some power for a while and jumped in.

The Coalition of the Power Hungry would be well-advised to think long and hard before they pull the plug in January. I think the G-G, who can read the polls like anyone else, would send them all to an election if they follow through and pull the plug in January.

What a sordid chapter in Canadian history this is. No longer can we laugh at the Americans and their hanging chads in Florida.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
ACDC8
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:01 am

I'm hoping this has brought a bit more interest in politics amongst Canadian voters so there will be a better turn out at the next election.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
A346Dude
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:09 am

Easily the most interesting week in Canadian politics I've seen. A normal week in Ottawa is going to seem so boring by comparison.

The question remains: was Harper 5 steps ahead of us all along? The Conservatives are now in solid majority territory. In retrospect, the political calculation was in Harper's favour any way it went.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:11 am

i was thinking today...this exercise in parliamentary democracies i analogous to the 2000 US presidential election. Up until then, i dont think a lot of people knew the power of the electoral college system as much as they should have. similar to that, i dont think many canadians realized that while minority governments can be good to keep the government in check, they can also be cumbersome.

But to be honest, i think what the GG did today, while setting a precedent that may become an issue, was best for the canadian people. 1 week for people to learn about the coalition, its goals, etc. is not enough time. We have two parties(and maybe three depending how how the coalition was formed) that were at odds with eachother not long ago, and have differing policies. I don't think i am alone in thinking this was no marriage made in heaven.
 
Alias1024
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:54 am



Quoting Arrow (Reply 83):
What a sordid chapter in Canadian history this is. No longer can we laugh at the Americans and their hanging chads in Florida.

Why not? I still laugh at our inability to hold elections without some form of controversy.

What I've found most interesting about all of this is that it some Canadians seem downright shocked that this could happen. Shifting coalitions and no-confidence votes are commonplace in some parts of the world. I'm also shocked at the stupidity of the Liberals in this. All they had to do was stand on the sidelines and watch Harper's futile efforts to deal with the financial plague headed North from New York (nobody can fix this mess). Maybe a year from now the coalition would have stood a chance. If not, 2011 could have easily gone their way.

Instead they try just weeks after the election, totally wrecking their image. It's not illegal, not really even immoral in a parliamentary system, but it just has a stench about it coming on the heels of an election. I believe the appropriate Canadian term for this level of ineptitude is 'gong show'.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
A346Dude
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:00 am



Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 87):
I believe the appropriate Canadian term for this level of ineptitude is 'gong show'.

That pretty much sums it up doesn't it.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:24 am



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 88):
I believe the appropriate Canadian term for this level of ineptitude is 'gong show'.

actually....a liberal MP today called Dion's amateurish address last night the same thing...

Quote:
The tape's bad timing and worse quality prompted one MP, Liberal Jim Karygiannis, to call it a "gong show."

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=1033300
 
yooyoo
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:00 pm

Toronto Maple Leafs Win Stanley Cup!!!

Canada was stunned Monday when it was announced that The Stanley Cup will be awarded to the Toronto Maple Leafs, possibly as early as December 6th. The cup will be stripped from 2008 playoff champions the Detroit Red Wings and be awarded to the Leafs, who didn't even make the playoffs.

How is this possible, Canadians ask?

Well, the Leafs have formed a coalition with eastern conference semifinalists the Montreal Canadians, and conference quarter finalists the Ottawa Senators, now outnumbering the Red Wings. According to current Leaf coach Ron Wilson "the Red Wings have lost the confidence of the league and should hand the cup over immediately to our coalition".

NHL commissioner Gary Bettman is cutting short a European trip to try to resolve the unprecedented hockey crisis that could force a second playoff series, or see an opposing team coalition take the cup.
I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:05 pm



Quoting YooYoo (Reply 90):
Toronto Maple Leafs Win Stanley Cup!!!

Nice way to sum it up LOL

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
A332
Topic Author
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:25 pm

New Compas poll for December 5, 2008:

http://www.compas.ca/data/081205-CommonsTurmoil-EPCB.pdf

Conservative support nationally is now pegged at 51%. It appears the Conservatives could now sweep Ontario and grab a huge majority, we're talking 229 seats across Canada!

Good thing the majority of Canadians support a coalition government, eh? (drenched in sarcasm)
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
Arrow
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:59 pm



Quoting A332 (Reply 92):
Conservative support nationally is now pegged at 51%.

Virtually all the polling done in the last 48 hours shows that the public takes a highly cynical view of the motives of the coalition. What I find very interesting is that Bob Rae has firmly hitched his wagon to maintaining the coalition, while Ignatieff is at best lukewarm.

Rae is in no way doing this on principle, despite his rhetoric -- it's pure opportunism. I think that will sink him more quickly than the iceberg sank the Titanic, and it will be fascinating to watch him try to backpedal furiously once he grasps the significance. I can hear Ignatieff guffawing, and I bet within a few days/weeks you'll see him come out as opposed to continuing the charade.

Frankly, the only hope the Liberals have now -- and it's a very slim hope -- is if Ignatieff can get himself annointed quickly, send Dion on a long ocean cruise (preferably sharing a cabin with Rae), and repudiate the coalition. The Liberals would be crucified if they went to the polls anytime within the next six months -- they really need time to rebuild and put this behind them.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
yooyoo
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:59 pm



Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 91):
Nice way to sum it up LOL

i can't take credit for the "comment". I just wanted to share and add a lighter side to this thread.  smile 
I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:54 am



Quoting A332 (Reply 92):

Conservative support nationally is now pegged at 51%. It appears the Conservatives could now sweep Ontario and grab a huge majority, we're talking 229 seats across Canada!

Good thing the majority of Canadians support a coalition government, eh? (drenched in sarcasm)

I knew this would happen. I knew it.

Only the people who really truly wanted Harper out of power are the ones who were happy with stretching the idea behind a coalition to begin with, to fit their agenda of throwing Harper out of government, without so much as looking at what the coalition proponents are TRULY trying to do.

It's just opportunistic.

If I was harper, I'd call an election.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
A346Dude
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Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:23 am

RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:12 am



Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 95):
Only the people who really truly wanted Harper out of power are the ones who were happy with stretching the idea behind a coalition to begin with, to fit their agenda of throwing Harper out of government, without so much as looking at what the coalition proponents are TRULY trying to do.

It's just opportunistic.

If I was harper, I'd call an election.

Let's be fair, there was plenty of opportunistic behaviour an all sides.

To call an election he'd have to manufacture another crisis upon returning in January. If he is really keen on doing this, and I wouldn't put it past him, expect a new poison pill in the budget.

But keep in mind the coalition will be long dead and forgotten by then, and there's a good chance the Liberals will have expedited their leadership process and have a new leader upon Parliament's return. Word is that Dion will be ousted next week. If the next few weeks are even a fraction as volatile as the last one, who knows what the situation will be like in January.
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lnglive1011yyz
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:49 am



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 96):
Let's be fair, there was plenty of opportunistic behaviour an all sides.

Oh, definitely.

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 96):
But keep in mind the coalition will be long dead and forgotten by then, and there's a good chance the Liberals will have expedited their leadership process and have a new leader upon Parliament's return. Word is that Dion will be ousted next week. If the next few weeks are even a fraction as volatile as the last one, who knows what the situation will be like in January.

The unfortunate part is, the damage has been done. It's quite apparent by most of the polls I've seen (both official and unofficial) that the Liberals and NDP have a LOT of explaining to do to their constituents.

As I've said all along.. I agree that the Coalition Gov't 'option' is something that does balance power properly, but in this case, it was being misused, for the wrong purposes.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
LH423
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:30 am

I have to say, now that the GG has made her decision, that regardless of the situation (coalition or not), I don't like the precedent this sets.

So now what? Anytime a PM is facing a confidence vote he can go to the Governor General and ask to have parliament prorogued?

Of course the GG doesn't have to follow precedent but there's a strong argument to do so, especially when you're someone like Michaëlle Jean who has no background in politics or constitutional law.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
A346Dude
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RE: "Dull" Canadian Politics Get A Twist!

Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:15 pm

Quoting LH423 (Reply 98):
I have to say, now that the GG has made her decision, that regardless of the situation (coalition or not), I don't like the precedent this sets.

So now what? Anytime a PM is facing a confidence vote he can go to the Governor General and ask to have parliament prorogued?

I don't disagree, but what was the alternative? An unstable coalition founded on a false pretext and brought together only by their shared hatred for Stephen Harper and lust for power? A prime minister who would be seen as illegitimate by a sizeable proportion of the population, regardless of the legality of his taking office?

Given the circumstances, there is a good argument to be made for taking a breather to allow things to settle down a bit, and to give the government at least a chance to govern. Parliament is not prorogued indefinitely; surely any coalition worth having can last 7 weeks.

[Edited 2008-12-06 04:18:03]
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.

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