Black Friday Stampede Kills Walmart Worker

smcmac32msn · Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:12 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 47):
If the man was trampled by one entrance/exit the other should have been fine to leave open.

WOW! You want more mobbish idiots running IN and OUT of the same door? Most Wal-Marts have only 2 exits. The Left and Right. One is IN..... One is OUT. Close the store and hold people inside. Nobody in/nobody out until the first are taken out..... litterally.

dxing · Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:42 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 49):
That is a crime, and thus a crime scene in which an investigation is to be done ASAP.

Sure, but the crime scene is confined to the entrance/exit area. No need ot close off electronics or the other entrance/exit to do the investigation.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 49):
A man was mortally wounded by an out of control mob

Out of control is subjective. How do you know they weren't being pushed from behind and had no choice but to continue forward or end up on the ground themselves? Do you know for an undisputed fact that anyone intentionally stomped on the man? If someone stepped on him while trying to keep their balance and remain upright then that is self preservation which isn't a crime. This an accident due to the negligence of the Wal Mart store to not correctly control the crowd.

Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 50):
Most Wal-Marts have only 2 exits

Almost all Wal Marts have two seperate entrance and exits. One on the right front another either midway or all the way to the left. If there is a garden area that also has door that can be used as an entrance and exit. If there is an auto center there is yet another way in and out. Look at it this way, if the man had a heart attack and died right there would you still want the store to be closed? There is camera survelliance available. Closing the store makes no sense whatsoever.

petertenthije · Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:15 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 51):
Out of control is subjective. How do you know they weren't being pushed from behind and had no choice but to continue forward or end up on the ground themselves?

Would that not imply in itself that the crowd, as opposed to individual person(s), is indeed out of control?

mirrodie · Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:23 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 49):
It's ok Mario no answer needed

I answered you, Nick. What do you think, I'm afraid of you? Are you so arrogant to think that I can't answer you? What. Are you trying to goad me? Please.

Suffice to say you can't read 41, I'll explain differently. From my perspective, "white trash" does not descibe a people of color, but I find it to be a term that descibes low class citizens regardless of color.

But of course, you knew what I meant, considering you know me. So quit trying to stir it up.

NIKV69 · Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:42 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 51):
Sure, but the crime scene is confined to the entrance/exit area. No need ot close off electronics or the other entrance/exit to do the investigation

No but order needed to be restored and that whole store should have been put on lockdown.

Quoting DXing (Reply 51):
Out of control is subjective

Ok about 2000 people where reported to becoming very rowdy to the point of chanting stuff and then before the doors could be open ran over a bunch of employees without stopping. It was described as a "bum rush"

If this isn't out of control I don't want to see what is.

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 53):
I answered you, Nick. What do you think, I'm afraid of you? Are you so arrogant to think that I can't answer you? What. Are you trying to goad me? Please.

No Mario I meant I already had my answer. You say no race was involved in your remark where clearly it was. I just didn't want to hear another around the bush attempt at explaining it away.

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 53):
Suffice to say you can't read 41, I'll explain differently. From my perspective, "white trash" does not descibe a people of color, but I find it to be a term that descibes low class citizens regardless of color.

Ok so now the term "white trash" encompasses all low class citizens? I hope you are joking but something tells me your not. Ok here is two links that may help you. You can find more by doing a search.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_trash

http://kpearson.faculty.tcnj.edu/Dictionary/white_trash.htm

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 53):
But of course, you knew what I meant, considering you know me. So quit trying to stir it up.

Mario I am not attempting to stir anything up. Just replying to what you write here. Isn't that what a forum is about? I am responsible for what I write and welcome any debate as to any statement. No need to take it personally.

mirrodie · Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:07 am

From the link you provided,

http://kpearson.faculty.tcnj.edu/Dictionary/white_trash.htm

"The term implies a lack of education and social refinement, and some people might argue that the term belongs to a category of insults focusing on behavioral characteristics (e.g., mannerisms, lifestyle) rather than overt racial characteristics (e.g., nigger, kike, etc.)."

Thanks for finding an example of exactly what I was talking about Nick. Like I said, it's not about race.
eyebrow

NIKV69 · Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:08 am

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 55):
Thanks for finding an example of exactly what I was talking about Nick. Like I said, it's not about race.

Maybe include the whole paragraph?

White Trash in an informal sense a pejorative term often used to describe relatively uneducated white Americans with bad personal habits in a typically low socio-economic class. The term is often directed at those who are not necessarily happy with their economic status, but do not attempt to better themselves through education or hard work. The term implies a lack of education and social refinement, and some people might argue that the term belongs to a category of insults focusing on behavioral characteristics (e.g., mannerisms, lifestyle) rather than overt racial characteristics (e.g., nigger, kike, etc.).

If it is nor about race or geography as we discussed with the thread starter why are direct examples included when making reference to the story? What does LI or white trash have to do with a bunch of out of control shoppers acting like an unruly mob? In the course of this story on a bunch of forums the people involved have been described as "animals", "savages" and "white trash" and I think it stinks. Not defending their actions but really.

flynavy · Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:16 am

What has this thread turned into? A NYCAviation reunion? duck

mirrodie · Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:20 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 56):
Maybe include the whole paragraph?

Heck, I could have included the entire webpage, but neither the entire webpage nor entire paragraph supports what I said as well as what I highlighted.

So thank you again, Nick, for helping me clarify my point. It really means a lot to know you could virtually finish my sentences and find the links that explain what I said...it really means a lot.

dxing · Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:22 am

Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 52):
Would that not imply in itself that the crowd, as opposed to individual person(s), is indeed out of control?

Not necessarily. Those in the back of the crowd may not have had any idea that someone had fallen down. I've been in crowds in New Orleans on Bourbon Street during Mardi Gras where if you had gone down you would have had a very difficult time getting back to your feet without getting stepped on and the crowd was not out of control, it was just huge.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 54):
No but order needed to be restored and that whole store should have been put on lockdown.

Order needed to be restored around that entrance. There is nothing in print that I have seen that said that once past the chokepoint of the door there were any other problems. They weren't looting the store.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 54):
Ok about 2000 people where reported to becoming very rowdy to the point of chanting stuff and then before the doors could be open ran over a bunch of employees without stopping. It was described as a "bum rush"

The pictures above tend to tell of a different situation. Obviously when the doors opened there was a big push to get through otherwise the person wouldn't have gotten trampled. Again, trying to stop may not have been an option given the crowd behind them pushing. Where did you get that "several" employees had been trampled? I only have read of the one and that some other employees were knocked down trying to get to him. A pregnant woman was knocked down and taken to the hospital along with 4 others for treatment of minor injuries.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...2008/11/28/national/a080140S70.DTL

Again, if this had been a simple heart attack victim, sad as that would be, would you still say close the store?

flynavy · Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:24 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 59):
They weren't looting the store.

No, but they did trample and crush a man to death.

Cadet57 · Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:35 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 59):
would you still say close the store?

I would. The fact remains that no matter WHO died it would be a crime/accident scene and the store should be treated as such until the police are satisfied.

dxing · Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:39 am

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 60):
No, but they did trample and crush a man to death.

Correct and there is nothing to suggest it was premeditated or anything other than an accident caused by negligence on the part of the store. As I have said a couple of times, if you have a lot of people behind you pushing, stopping may not be an option. Think back to some of the really bad nightclub fires over the years where people are stacked up in front of an exit that won't open. A lot of times they don't burn to death, they are crushed to death by the people pushing from behind who don't know that the doors won't open. Same deal here, if you had 2000 people trying to get through the doors those in back may have had no idea what was happening up front. So while the man was trampled and killed which is sad, it doees not mean it was done intentionally or with malice.

NIKV69 · Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:08 am

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 58):
So thank you again, Nick, for helping me clarify my point. It really means a lot to know you could virtually finish my sentences and find the links that explain what I said...it really means a lot

No problem! I am here to help.

Quoting DXing (Reply 59):
Order needed to be restored around that entrance. There is nothing in print that I have seen that said that once past the chokepoint of the door there were any other problems. They weren't looting the store.

Any other problems? Multiple employees were assaulted and one died. I would say that is enough.

Quoting DXing (Reply 59):
Again, if this had been a simple heart attack victim, sad as that would be, would you still say close the store?

I have to tell you reading your post just gets more confusing. What does this have to do with anything? A person was killed thanks to an unruly mob and video was available. I would have closed the store and locked it down and given enough time to see if an arrest could be made. If not then reopen and go back to shopping.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 61):
I would. The fact remains that no matter WHO died it would be a crime/accident scene and the store should be treated as such until the police are satisfied.

Quoting DXing (Reply 62):
So while the man was trampled and killed which is sad, it doees not mean it was done intentionally or with malice.

When a bunch of people act in a way that these did and rush into a store and cause harm or on this case death to someone doesn''t matter if malice was involved or not it is a crime.

dxing · Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:49 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 63):
A person was killed thanks to an unruly mob and video was available. I would have closed the store and locked it down and given enough time to see if an arrest could be made. If not then reopen and go back to shopping.

Again, define unruly? Was it the people at the front of the mob? Or the people in the middle? Or maybe the people at the back? Did then entire mob stomp on this guy while they were passing by? Did anyone intentionally stomp on the guy as they passed by? Where did the crime take place? In the front of entrance/exit or did the guy somehow get dragged all the way to the back of the store? You're treating everyone that was there as a suspect when it might not have been anyone, just an accident due to negligence for which I'm sure that several personal injury attorneys are probably salivating over right now. You are treating the entire store as a crime scene when it appears that only the area directly around that entrance/exit is where the event occured. Why close off the entire store if only a small part of it was involved?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 63):
When a bunch of people act in a way that these did and rush into a store and cause harm or on this case death to someone doesn''t matter if malice was involved or not it is a crime.

A crime of negligence yes. Anything else at this point is subjective simply because the people that ended up running him over might well have been being pushed by the crowd behind and not had any choice but to keep going or fall down and get trampled themselves. Ask yourself this question. You're stopped at a stop light a car in front and a car behind. A truck plows into the car behind you which plows into you an then you plow into the car in front of you. The person in front of you is killed. Are the truck driver, the guy behind you, and you as well guilty of vehicular manslaughter? Because that is the type blame you are assigning the people at the front of that crowd that actually ran him over.

luv2fly · Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:09 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 59):
The pictures above tend to tell of a different situation. Obviously when the doors opened there was a big push to get through otherwise the person wouldn't have gotten trampled.

All the articles I have read report that the doors were ripped off the hinges to gain access. So if this was not a mob mentality I do not know what is.

Cadet57 · Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:28 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 64):
Again, define unruly?

Maybe the attempts to break down the doors and the pushing and shoving?

Quoting DXing (Reply 64):
Was it the people at the front of the mob? Or the people in the middle? Or maybe the people at the back?

It was anyone that forcefully tried to get into that store.

Quoting DXing (Reply 64):
Did then entire mob stomp on this guy while they were passing by?

More than likely a good amount of people did.

Quoting DXing (Reply 64):
Did anyone intentionally stomp on the guy as they passed by?

Depends on how you define intentional. They forcefully shoved their way in, when that guy tried to hold them back, he was pushed aside.

Quoting DXing (Reply 64):
Where did the crime take place?

In the store, where he was killed.

Quoting DXing (Reply 64):
You're treating everyone that was there as a suspect

As they should be. Every person who pushed their way into that store should feel guilty and ashamed and be investigated, but they wont. They got their discounted tv. I cant wait for the police to make arrests..

DocLightning · Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:57 pm

Since I have found myself in a stampeding mob, I'll tell you how it happens.

You are up at the front. The people behind are shoving you. Suddenly, the barriers are opened and you are shoved from behind. Those people are similarly being shoved from behind. The entire energy of the crowd goes FORWARD and you cannot possibly stop it. To not run forward at full tilt is to invite death by trampling. The poor sod was facing the crowd when they erupted in, most likely, and so he couldn't run away fast enough.

No one individual in that crowd had any control over the crowd even to stop people from stepping on a wounded man.

Meanwhile, Wal-Mart needs to install turnstiles before Black Friday.

smcmac32msn · Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:07 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 67):
No one individual in that crowd had any control over the crowd even to stop people from stepping on a wounded man.

Meanwhile, Wal-Mart needs to install turnstiles before Black Friday.

The people I would investigate are the execs at Wal-Mart for the idea of these sales and creating the (mob) mentality that led to the death of this employee. There is a perfect charge for the Wal-Mart executives..... Its called: Conspiracy to Commit Murder.

luv2fly · Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:05 pm

I just read in the local paper that the man was 275 pounds! His co-workers referred to him as a gentle giant. And I read that the automatic doors where shattered from the mob pressing against them.

flynavy · Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:16 pm

Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 68):
There is a perfect charge for the Wal-Mart executives...

You can't be serious? You actually expect that to hold up in any court? Get real, man.

WarRI1 · Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:07 pm

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 70):

You can't be serious? You actually expect that to hold up in any court? Get real, man.

Once again, management is not at fault according to some. There are laws about exciting to riot, this was a riot and a stampede, death resulted. Walmart well knew what happens under these conditions as well as the management of other stores who create this enviroment of mob mentality where you have to stampede through the open doors like cattle and grab and wrestle for the few products on sale. I hope this mans family sues the pants off Walmart, they deserve it.

dxing · Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:19 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 65):
All the articles I have read report that the doors were ripped off the hinges to gain access.

Those doors don't have hinges, they slide on tracks. They are designed to be easily knocked off the tracks and one person running into them with a shopping card can do that.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 66):
Maybe the attempts to break down the doors and the pushing and shoving?

If you are at the front of a large crowd that is pushing from behind are you trying to knock down the doors or just keep your feet? And your source for the back of the crowd knowing what was happening up front is?

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 66):
It was anyone that forcefully tried to get into that store.

The choke point is the door. Once to that point the pushing and shoving would only be worse.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 66):
More than likely a good amount of people did.

Yet was it intentional?

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 66):
They forcefully shoved their way in, when that guy tried to hold them back, he was pushed aside.

Look in a mirror, the person you see looking back at you is ultimately responsible for your safety.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 66):
In the store, where he was killed.

Where in the store?

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 66):
As they should be. Every person who pushed their way into that store should feel guilty and ashamed and be investigated, but they wont. They got their discounted tv. I cant wait for the police to make arrests..

Why? Again, how would the people in the back or the middle of the crowd have any idea of what was taking place up front? Those up front would have no choice but to continue forward or face the same fate. There won't be any arrests since unless some video surfaces of some one person knocking him down or one person stomping on him the rest can easily claim self preservation in that if they had tried to stop they would themselves have been run down.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 67):
No one individual in that crowd had any control over the crowd even to stop people from stepping on a wounded man.

Agreed, I am on my way out to buy lottery tickets.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 67):
Meanwhile, Wal-Mart needs to install turnstiles before Black Friday.

You can bet that rope barriers will be in place to define lines along with some added security personnel next year as they should have been this year. As stated, I'm sure there are some personal injury attorneys making calls to everyone in that crowd they can find.

flynavy · Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:34 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 71):
Once again, management is not at fault according to some.

Once again, everyone's guilty until proven innocent (according to some, i.e. you). Yeah sure

There is a BIG difference between a business executive and a store manager. A case might hold up against the store's management in Long Island, maybe for criminal negligence, but a case wouldn't hold up against a Walmart executive in Bentonville for a crime committed on Long Island.

dxing · Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:48 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 71):
Once again, management is not at fault according to some.

Disagree. As a matter of fact the store manager is culpable in a way. He or she should have been aware of the size of the crowd out front waiting to get in and done something to maintain an orderly flow i.e. rope lines or security personnel. Is the store manager criminally negligent? That's for a jury to decide based on circumstances that we don't know other than what has been reported and that may not be accurate. Certainly though, Wal Mart as corporation is in for some days in civil court as I'm sure a number of law suits will be forthcoming.

WarRI1 · Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:17 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 74):
Certainly though, Wal Mart as corporation is in for some days in civil court as I'm sure a number of law suits will be forthcoming.

As well they should be in court. There is such as thing being (culpable) (deserving blame or censure) They set up the conditions for this tragedy, they are to blame.

WarRI1 · Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:30 pm

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 73):
Once again, everyone's guilty until proven innocent (according to some, i.e. you).

There is a BIG difference between a business executive and a store manager. A case might hold up against the store's management in Long Island, maybe for criminal negligence, but a case wouldn't hold up against a Walmart executive in Bentonville for a crime committed on Long Island.

The manager is an agent of the corporation is he not? The corporation sanctions these cattle stampedes. The corporation will be found guilty and just maybe the Local Manager who is MANAGEMENT of whatever civil actions and just maybe crimminal charges are filed. Someone is dead because of the actions of Walmart. Maybe you can excuse it away, I cannot, and neither will the family of the victim, nor their attorney. Once again some on here do not want to blame management for anything. Sad

DocLightning · Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:10 am

Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 68):

The people I would investigate are the execs at Wal-Mart for the idea of these sales and creating the (mob) mentality that led to the death of this employee. There is a perfect charge for the Wal-Mart executives..... Its called: Conspiracy to Commit Murder.

That's absurd. You mean you can prove that the Wal-Mart executives intentionally did this for the purpose of killing this specific worker? No, you can't.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 76):
Someone is dead because of the actions of Walmart.

Again, you can't prove that. Look, I despise Wal-Mart just as much as anyone else. But Wal-Mart cannot be responsible for this.

This attitude is part of the problem with the American legal system. It's why people who fall down a set of stairs try to sue the lumber company who provided the wood for the stairs. Or why people who get shot or whose family member gets shot sue the gun company.

It isn't Wal-Mart's fault. Frankly, the man should have refused to open the door if he saw it already starting to buckle in under the force of the crowd.

Cadet57 · Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:19 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 77):
Again, you can't prove that. Look, I despise Wal-Mart just as much as anyone else. But Wal-Mart cannot be responsible for this.

Sure they could. Its not as if this is the first time this has happened.

NIKV69 · Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:36 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 78):
Sure they could. Its not as if this is the first time this has happened.

Basically righ, this should not have been a surprise. Crowds of people have had incidents at many other retails outlets. Some stores have used their heads and developed a lottery system where you get tickets so huge crowds don't conregrate. Walmart in all their wisdom and research didn't. No lottery, no barriers, no crowd control. It's plain as day to see.

WarRI1 · Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:52 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 77):
Again, you can't prove that. Look, I despise Wal-Mart just as much as anyone else. But Wal-Mart cannot be responsible for this.

This attitude is part of the problem with the American legal system. It's why people who fall down a set of stairs try to sue the lumber company who provided the wood for the stairs. Or why people who get shot or whose family member gets shot sue the gun company.

It isn't Wal-Mart's fault. Frankly, the man should have refused to open the door if he saw it already starting to buckle in under the force of the crowd.

Walmart started the action which led to the death of this man. They induced the crowd to form outside with their sale items. There is a history of this kind of behavior at these sales. They provided no safeguards, and their employee is dead because of it. I do not think a man doing his job and being crushed to death will look like a frivolous lawsuit. I know we have a history of lawsuits here, but this is beyond the scope of someone falling down stairs intentionally and sueing. Maybe the Manager panicked and told him to open the doors, that is what the lawyers will probably allege. They were confronted by a mob after all. I am sure it is scary from what I have read about these type sales. I know the police have been called out here because of this type of inducement by the stores in the past. Maybe like you say, even the door company will get sued.

flynavy · Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:39 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 76):
Maybe you can excuse it away, I cannot, and neither will the family of the victim, nor their attorney.

What are you talking about man? I started this thread. I'm not excusing anything away.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 77):
It isn't Wal-Mart's fault. Frankly, the man should have refused to open the door if he saw it already starting to buckle in under the force of the crowd.

bok269 · Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:17 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 72):

Those doors don't have hinges, they slide on tracks. They are designed to be easily knocked off the tracks and one person running into them with a shopping card can do that.

The store I work at has similar doors. I've knocked them off on several occasions. They simply snap right back into place.

PHLBOS · Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:51 pm

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 6):
This isnt the first time something like this has happened in that mall. First time someone was killed like this but more than a few were injured 2 years ago during the same fiasco.

That's won't bode too well when (not if) this matter goes to court.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 10):
I was driving home at 11pm, and the line at Best Buy (6 hours before openning) was wrapped all around the building... kinda sad....

I don't know about anyone else, but many places of work (not just retail) are actually now OPEN on Black Friday (my workplace included); don't these people (in lines) have jobs to go to that Friday morning? Not all in the crowds are those on vacation.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 17):
A lot of stores have great deals on a variety of items.

Code Phrase: You MUST come on in and BUY NOW!

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 17):
People tend to go crazy about it.

Understatement of the year.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 19):
I suspect that some larger stores on the next and future 'Black Fridays', will be required by local laws or their liability insurers to have additional paid security officials and or have to pay for supplemtal local police officers. Of course, that raises the costs of goods at these stores. I hope the security video is shown to the public, showing those that trampled that man at the Walmart* and shames them in their communities.

Not to sound like a Scrooge here but maybe it's time to do away with the whole Black Friday concept altogether and just have the stores open at their normal hours. Several years ago, after reports and claims of driving numerous accidents (unsure of any involved injuries and/or death), Domino's Pizza was forced to abandon its 30-minute Delivery Time Guarantee policy. Maybe a similar action needs to be done here and not just at Walmarts.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 19):
I was out shopping today, saw some stupid lines wating for stores to open at 8/9 am.

When I'm away on vacation during the Thanksgiving holiday, I'm usually either still in bed or out going for a morning run. Those stores are the last place I want to be at that time.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 75):
Quoting DXing (Reply 74):
Certainly though, Wal Mart as corporation is in for some days in civil court as I'm sure a number of law suits will be forthcoming.

As well they should be in court. There is such as thing being (culpable) (deserving blame or censure) They set up the conditions for this tragedy, they are to blame.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
You can do almost the same shopping online

Side Note: the similar Cyber-Monday is today BTW and is a whole lot safer.

dxing · Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:58 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 63):
Any other problems? Multiple employees were assaulted and one died. I would say that is enough.

And all that happened very close to the door. Not back in electronics or hardware.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 75):
They set up the conditions for this tragedy, they are to blame.

Yet somewhere along the line the crowd itself has to practice some restraint. Conditions on highways exist every day all day for tragedies but they don't occur because ordinary people are responsible enough to maintain some sense of order. Here they did not and while Wal Mart bears a share of the blame in the mans death, the crowd itself is also at least partially responsible for not practicing some self control.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 83):
Side Note: the similar Cyber-Monday is today BTW and is a whole lot safer.

Right up until your identity or credit card number gets ripped off, then you might wish you were dead.

DocLightning · Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:40 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 80):
Walmart started the action which led to the death of this man. They induced the crowd to form outside with their sale items.

Having a sale is inducing a crowd?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 80):
They provided no safeguards, and their employee is dead because of it.

I agree that they provided no safeguards. At best you could hold the company liable for criminal negligence. But conspiracy to commit murder? Get real.

Now, a suit to ensure that Wal-Mart provides some sort of crowd control in the future is definitely in order. But ultimately, this was an accidental death and no individual is liable for it.

WarRI1 · Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:07 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 85):
agree that they provided no safeguards. At best you could hold the company liable for criminal negligence. But conspiracy to commit murder? Get real.

Nothing in my post says or implies the charge of conspiracy to commit murder. Read it again.

WarRI1 · Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:15 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 84):
Yet somewhere along the line the crowd itself has to practice some restraint. Conditions on highways exist every day all day for tragedies but they don't occur because ordinary people are responsible enough to maintain some sense of order. Here they did not and while Wal Mart bears a share of the blame in the mans death, the crowd itself is also at least partially responsible for not practicing some self control.

Without a doubt, that is true. This type of selfish behavior is more common everyday. We will see what the attorneys and the authorities come up with. Walmart will pay in the end.

WarRI1 · Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:34 am

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 73):
Once again, everyone's guilty until proven innocent (according to some, i.e. you).

What are you talking about man? I started this thread. I'm not excusing anything away.[/quote]

I am aware that you started the thread. I did express my opinion that according to some, mamagement is never wrong. They are wrong here in this case and Walmart will pay for this death, at least by civil lawsuit. If you were not excusing anything away, good for you because you would be wrong in doing so in this case. It is a no-brainer as far as Walmart being culpable.

ltbewr · Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:52 am

Probably the worst 'stampede' incident with deaths was at in Cincinati, Ohio about 30 years ago at a The Who concert, with several killed. That lead to a prompt end to 'general seating' for music concerts throughout the USA.
Many stores on Black Friday that had limited numbers of 'doorbuster' items (LCD TV's, computers), passed out order number and product coupons as well as special cops on duty to keep order.

WarRI1 · Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:13 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 89):
Probably the worst 'stampede' incident with deaths was at in Cincinati, Ohio about 30 years ago at a The Who concert, with several killed. That lead to a prompt end to 'general seating' for music concerts throughout the USA.
Many stores on Black Friday that had limited numbers of 'doorbuster' items (LCD TV's, computers), passed out order number and product coupons as well as special cops on duty to keep order.

Maybe this tragedy at Walmart will lead to the stores not using such unwise terms as doorbusting. Walmart sure had doorbusting items in this case, even if they did not use that terminology. I hope cities and towns pass laws to prevent this in the future.

PHLBOS · Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:15 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 89):
Probably the worst 'stampede' incident with deaths was at in Cincinati, Ohio about 30 years ago at a The Who concert, with several killed. That lead to a prompt end to 'general seating' for music concerts throughout the USA.

I was tempted to bring that up in my earlier post but was unsure of the end response.

Quoting DXing (Reply 84):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 83):
Side Note: the similar Cyber-Monday is today BTW and is a whole lot safer.

Right up until your identity or credit card number gets ripped off, then you might wish you were dead.

For the record, my on-line transactions are very limited AND are not done on the so-called Cyber-Monday. Believe me, I am very skeptical of doing everything on-line for the identity-theft reason alone. When I do an on-line purchase (mainly for airline, car rental and/or motel stays), I use just ONE credit card for that very purpose.

Back to Black Friday: This past Friday, I actually had to make a trip to a mall (North Shore Mall in Peabody, MA) around 6:30 PM because I needed to buy a last-minute gift card (it was for an upcoming birthday) at JC Penney. There was only one person in line at the register I was at and I was in-and-out in no time. I, for one, was quite surprised.

dxing · Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:32 am

And so it begins.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D94REDKG1&show_article=1

GARDEN CITY, N.Y. (AP) - The family of a worker trampled to death in a "Black Friday" crush of bargain hunters at a Long Island Wal-Mart store filed a wrongful-death lawsuit on Wednesday, claiming store ads offering deep discounts "created an atmosphere of competition and anxiety" that led to "crowd craze."

WarRI1 · Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:20 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 92):
GARDEN CITY, N.Y. (AP) - The family of a worker trampled to death in a "Black Friday" crush of bargain hunters at a Long Island Wal-Mart store filed a wrongful-death lawsuit on Wednesday, claiming store ads offering deep discounts "created an atmosphere of competition and anxiety" that led to "crowd craze."

It may have a sobering affect on next years Black Friday sales, and well it should. Best Buy here where I live let in twenty people at a time. That seemed to do the trick, from what I heard.

sovietjet · Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:04 am

I used to work at Best Buy. Most black friday items are complete trash anyways. No name brands with short production runs. Of course they're cheap! The real profit maker was the accessories conveniently placed beside each "hot" item.

I do not understand why someone would wait in line if its more than say 100-150 people long. The big "doorbusters"(laptops, TVs, cameras, etc...) are in quite limited supply and you can bet your ass the first people in line are waiting just for them. There really isn't much more than 100-150 of these all items combined TOTAL in the store. Afterwards there is no point in waiting, the other items are usually massively stocked. But people are very ignorant/stupid to realize this.

The stupidest thing I saw was two years ago when I worked the black friday shift at best buy. Some guy walked in and was one of the first people. He must've waited all night in the sub-zero temperature. I asked him if he needed help and he replied "I'm just looking". Later on I saw him walk out with nothing. He literally waited all night and bought nothing.... Yeah sure

ltbewr · Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:32 am

It is a bit disturbing that already the family of the man killed has filed a lawsuit against Walmart, the mall owner and the Nassau County Police Department. The victim may bearly be in his grave. The Complaint was filed in NY State Supreme Court (the trial court level in NY State) in Bronx County, NY City, apparently where relatives live. It is a jurisdiction notorious for it's huge judgments for personal injuries and deaths, especially against 'deep pocket' Defendants like major corporations and government agencies. I suspect that the lawyer is just into the money, looking for that huge payday of 1/3rd of the total judgment, something that is just wrong.

I suspect the Defendants will first try to move the venue of the case to Nassau County, due to the site of the death and the Nassau County Police Defendant as well a wanting a less Plaintiff friendly jurisdiction. I also suspect they will hire the best corporate side Defense counsel and try to make motion after motion to delay any trial or force a settlement. This man may have been chosen specifically to guard the doors due to his large size, apparently he was 6 ft. 3" (2 m) or more tall and weighted something like 275 pounds (125 Kgs) rather than hire police officers or armed guards that would have been appropiate to contol the huge crowd.

This is not to say that the victims' family shouldn't get a significant judgment or settlement, but this race to the courthouse is just why many Americans hate our civil court system and lawyers.

smcmac32msn · Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:17 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 95):
This man may have been chosen specifically to guard the doors due to his large size, apparently he was 6 ft. 3" (2 m) or more tall and weighted something like 275 pounds (125 Kgs) rather than hire police officers or armed guards that would have been appropiate to contol the huge crowd.

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner! An exact reason why Wal-Mart will lose this case. Heres the scenario that goes along with that.

Scenario 1:
Mr. RIP gets to work at 3 am, sees a huge throng of people and goes inside to prepare to do his normal opening duties. Once complete he's told by a manager to go open the front doors due to his size. Management thinks Mr. RIP will do a fine job mostly based on his size. The waiting MOB (much larger than Mr. RIP) sees him as just another employee they can barge past on their way to bargains. MOB pours in and crushes Mr. RIP in the ensuing madness.

Scenario 2:
Wal-Mart hires either city or county police to be on stand by. Mr. RIP gets to work at 3 am, does his opening duties and is asked to go open the doors with Officer/Deputy X. When they reach the front of the store, O/D X has his hand in the officer safety position while Mr. RIP pulls open the door a few inches. O/D X makes several announcements about crowd control. They finish opening the doors and step to the side letting everyone file past the first few feet until they feel they can run (if need be). A life is saved....

DocLightning · Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:47 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 92):

GARDEN CITY, N.Y. (AP) - The family of a worker trampled to death in a "Black Friday" crush of bargain hunters at a Long Island Wal-Mart store filed a wrongful-death lawsuit on Wednesday, claiming store ads offering deep discounts "created an atmosphere of competition and anxiety" that led to "crowd craze."

How idiotic.

If you sue you sue for lack of crowd control and negligence. You don't sue for rock-bottom prices.

WarRI1 · Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:41 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 97):
If you sue you sue for lack of crowd control and negligence. You don't sue for rock-bottom prices.

I can understand the term crowd craze. Humans are greedy, humans want more than they can afford, humans are selfish, these humans wanted to save a buck, all that baloney that makes them stand in line all night, so when the time arrives, all these nice traits kick in and they become crazed. People got assaulted before and now someone has died. You would have to say that is a crazed crowd. Unfortunately, the stores feed the frenzy, by dangling the bait of low prices, something for cheap. That is the trigger for these nice traits to emerge.

a380us · Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:45 am

The thing is if I wasn't away I would have been there that morning.
Society is really bad if saving a couple of dollars on an ipod is worth someones life.

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