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fxramper
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School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:18 pm



Show them the money!



A good portion of success for future and past generations relies on how well a teacher educates. At the end of the day, the role of educator is often taken for granted and they are paid very little.

Why is this?

I say double all teacher's salaries; immediately.

 twocents 
 
KAUST
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:24 pm

As the son of a school teacher, I say "AMEN!" And to help make it better, pay athletes and movie stars less. Give the money where it truly and really belongs.
"Houston, this is Apollo 8. We are now in Lunar orbit."
 
EasternSon
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:25 pm

I'm going to get the crap kicked out of me for saying this, but in some cases, I disagree.

I have several friends who are teachers, and all of them make a very good living.

I totally agree that teaching is incredibly important, and we should give teachers and educators all the respect in the world, but here's my problem with most of them:

Most of the teachers I knew were very poor students themselves. They got out and got jobs paying somewhere between $40 and $50K a year. Most supplemented that with summer work. They got raises every year, despite re-using lesson plans from previous years, and when they were tenured after five years, they were making upwards of $60K. Add to that the fact that they have summers off and a pensioned retirement at 75% of their retiring salary.

No, we shouldn't double their pay unless the kids get twice as smart.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
 
lowrider
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:39 pm



Quoting EasternSon (Reply 2):
I'm going to get the crap kicked out of me for saying this, but in some cases, I disagree.

I'll get kicked with you. I disagree as well. Would paying teachers twice as much make them teach twice as well? My mother in law is a teacher and none of her problems stem from low pay. At 11 years in her current district she makes a very comfortable living.

Is it an important job? Absolutely. But many jobs do not get compenseted in accordance with their importance. One must be careful not to let the sentimental rhetoric of, "Its for the sake of the children", sweep aside logic and reason.
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fr8mech
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:55 pm

I agree, good teachers should be paid more...bad teachers should be fired, mediocre teachers should be placed on probation and fired if they don't meet the standards.

Eliminate the tenure systems. Establish review boards that monitor teacher, school and administration performance. Eliminate the ineffectual. Prop up the ones that can be saved and lavishly reward and learn from those who can prove they know what they are doing.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
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ShyFlyer
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:03 pm



Quoting EasternSon (Reply 2):
I have several friends who are teachers, and all of them make a very good living.



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 3):
My mother in law is a teacher and none of her problems stem from low pay. At 11 years in her current district she makes a very comfortable living.

I guess it all depends on where you live. I grew up and went to school in a small town. Most of the teachers had second jobs year round.

A friend of mine has both parents teaching in that district and both of them combined pull down south of $50,000. That includes his dad's part time job as an EMT. Both of his parents have been teaching for 30+ years.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
yooyoo
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:11 pm

I'm always surprised at how little teachers and cops get paid in the states. Up here both professions are paid very well and have great benefits. In fact, i think the teachers make too much $ up here in Ontario ( i may get flamed for that comment). I have a friend who is a cop and his base salary is in the high $70,000 range and another friend of mine, his wife, a teacher will be making over $100,000 next year. (Canadian dollars).

Quoting KAUST (Reply 1):
pay athletes and movie stars less

and what does that have to with with this thread?  smile 
I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
 
EMBQA
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:15 pm

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 2):
I have several friends who are teachers, and all of them make a very good living

...and only work 9 months of the year.......

[Edited 2008-12-09 13:17:56]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
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fxramper
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:24 pm

The average salary of a teacher with 1-4 years experience is $35,051. Factor in what a teacher spends on preparing their classroom and out of pocket for student projects during the school year - they make below $32,000.



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 3):
Would paying teachers twice as much make them teach twice as well?

 confused 
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:33 pm

$35k for a teachers salary is ridiculous. What a joke. Are they really paid that poorly down there?

You can make more as ramp lead at the airport up here.
 
Kent350787
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:55 pm

Straight out of university with a 4 year post high school qualification, a teacher here earns $50k. After 6 years they're on $75k - but then probably won't get significant pay rises unless they become principals etc.

Should good teachers be paid more - definitely! Should all teachers be paid more? No.

We've got thousands more people trained as primary school teachers than can be employed, but not enough maths [sic] and science teachers - in a free market, why would you increase incentives if you have an oversupply?

Kent
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PSA727
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:01 pm

I'd be willing to increase teachers' salaries if the NEA agrees to forgoe the tenure policy.
fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
 
Cadet57
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:04 pm



Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 4):
Eliminate the tenure systems

Yes. Its a stupid level at both the college and high school level. In my sophomore and junior years in high school there was a group of about 10 teaches that were all relatively new hire's. All of them were amazing in the classroom. Smart, great with the students, they connected with us. And by my senior year all were gone except for 4. FOUR. So in 3 years 6 teaches got the can. Including a teacher that some of us jokingly called the Mr. Escalante of 10th grade geometry. He could get thru to anyone. Not to mention the fact we would listen to Peal Jam after class and he started an outdoors club. But because he and the other fired teachers didn't see eye to eye with our principal, they got the sack. But thankfully for them they're all doing great. My math teacher has a job in another district and is up for dept head, another one got a job in special ed. and another is now a snowboarding instructor in Aspen, and DJ's on weekends.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
KAUST
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:11 pm



Quoting YooYoo (Reply 6):
Quoting KAUST (Reply 1):
pay athletes and movie stars less

and what does that have to with with this thread? smile

Hmmm. I don't know. Sounded good in my head, though.  Wink
"Houston, this is Apollo 8. We are now in Lunar orbit."
 
kmh1956
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:53 pm

I work in a school, and our teachers (by comparison to some) are paid extremely well. Having said that, however, you must factor in the extremely high cost of living in Bermuda. Since most of our really good teachers come from overseas, this tends to limit their ability to save money to take with them when their contracts and work permits are up, and also to travel home on vacations. (Air travel from Bermuda to the UK is excessively high)

Plus...bear in mind, that although they all get summer, Christmas and Easter (or spring) vacations..these folks often arrive very early in the morning to supervise students who get in to school early, work late into the evenings attending parent meetings, supervising detention, coaching teams, uploading numerous students' grades into the computer system, grading papers, tidying classrooms, preparing lesson plans, staff meetings...and this is not paid as overtime. It's not unheard of for a friend of mine to still be in his classroom well after 7pm several evenings a week.
'Somebody tell me why I'm on my own if there's a soulmate for everyone' :Natasha Bedingfield
 
MOBflyer
Posts: 150
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:25 am



Quoting EasternSon (Reply 2):
No, we shouldn't double their pay unless the kids get twice as smart.

Exactly
Performance based pay is crucial to increasing student performance.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 8):
Factor in what a teacher spends on preparing their classroom and out of pocket for student projects during the school year - they make below $32,000.

Here in Mobile County, an urban district of more than 60,000 students, the middle 50% of teachers make between $38,000 and $56,000 per year. With a median of $47,735. Thats just base pay. Teachers are eligible for the state pension fund, the Retirement Systems of Alabama. The median pay+benefits for teachers here is $68,685. Keep in mind the cost of living in Mobile is relatively low.

Teachers get classroom allocation per year as well. Also, teachers of specialty get special allocation. Major projects can be financed through departmental purchasing or the local school's general fund. Teachers who spend their own money and can produce a receipt are reimbursed. I fail to understand your point about preparing the classroom and out of pocket expenses.

For the past several years, teachers have gotten raises in Alabama. (Now that the taxes have gone down the hole, the state is providing the local systems with just 75% of the checks, typically two weeks late. Local systems are taking out loans to carry them over to make payroll)

Some teachers deserve a raise. Alabama gives a one time $10,000 bonus to a teacher for receiving National Board Certification and another $5,000 bonus for the next ten years.

Some teachers deserve to be fired - but they can't be because they are tenured. With the financial crisis the Mobile County Public School system is in, they tried to pink slip some tenured teachers last year. They anticipate more than $1 million to be accrued in legal fees trying to rid themselves of a couple handfulls of teachers. Try to lose this union job!
 
Yellowstone
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:44 am



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 15):
Exactly
Performance based pay is crucial to increasing student performance.

Then how do you propose to attract good teachers to lower-performing schools?
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
MOBflyer
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:51 am



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 16):
Then how do you propose to attract good teachers to lower-performing schools?

Washington, DC's methods that they are currently implementing show significant promise; and her in Mobile County, they have identified troubled schools and offered teachers with proven exceptional ability very enhanced compensation for relocating - in addition to denying requests for highly qualified teacher transfers. There are bonuses for every step, and the ultimate package is contingent on the school making AYP for a defined time interval. The "Transition Schools" have had mixed success, but were very effective in drawing highly qualified teachers and administrators to the troubled schools.
 
ltbewr
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:02 am

Some teachers should be paid more and have good health insurance and retirement benefits for a number of reasons. They include to encourage those of good quality to enter and stay in the field or district, so not to lose them to other areas of employment, to recognize the high costs of living in some districts and regions and to compensate for working in higher risk (inner city) districts. We also must make it possible that teachers can afford to live in the communities and districts at a decent and safe location rather than many miles away.

As to tenure, I do believe that it needs to exist to some extent, but it should be to protect good teachers from 'poliltical' dismissal (like to hire some board member's daughter), not to protect incompentents.

Beyond pay, other factors must be considered. We have too much of 'teaching to the tests', that is to make sure students pass the Federal/State mandated tests rather than teaching students how to learn. We must find some way to get rid of the excesses of burearcracy and paperwork mandated by government. Parents must do their part in education of their children rather than dump it all on the teachers and schools and complain when they do too much. Further, we need to change our K-12 lock step, one size fit's all model we have had for over 150 years. We also meed to change school funding, to get away from local property taxes that hurt too many lower income and retirees and causes them to reject additional funding of schools and teachers. You also have the need to deal with the huge loans many college students and future teacher are incurring that more pay would help with.

I have a neice who is about 3 semesters from teaching (elementry level), inspired to be a teacher by her cousin who worked as a special needs schoolteacher in a high school for about 8 years. I hope she will find the field fullfilling personally and for her purse.
 
OlegShv
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:14 am



Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 4):
Eliminate the tenure systems.

I don't know much about grade school or high school level systems, but tenure system in colleges is extremely important. Without it academic freedom will be lost because of disagreements and conflicts that sometimes arise between administration and faculty. Those of you who think that college professors live lavish lifestyles and work 4 hours a day are dead wrong. PhD level employees earn more in the industry than in academia (at least in engineering).

Depending on institution teaching load can be 2-4 classes per term. In addition to teaching and serving on various department/college/university committees, professors are typically required to seek research funding from industry and government agencies, as well as publish their research. Rest assured that they work much more than 40 hours per week.
 
Mike89406
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:11 am

Me and my wife were discussing this as she just graduated from UNR with her MA in Special Ed. She is in it for the passion of working with special needs kids not the money. However with all the hard work, certifications she had to obtain through testing it doesn't seem like she will get fairly compensated for her qualifications and at least paid for her degree level. Come to find out that since we are moving to So Cal she has to take more tests and obtain that weren’t required in Nevada and possibly 12 more credits in English Literacy courses just to get looked at when applying for a job teaching special ed moderate to severe.

Let’s not forget all the tests teachers have to pay for and college classes and/or conferences. We are paying off her student loan as well. I'm sure things will work out.

Mike
 
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DocLightning
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:14 am



Quoting EasternSon (Reply 2):

No, we shouldn't double their pay unless the kids get twice as smart.

You want good teachers? Raise the pay. Make it competitive. That will attract good students. If teachers were to make $100K you would get far better teachers. There are plenty of people who would love to be teachers, but don't feel that the low pay justifies going to college and ed school. If you made the job competitive with something like engineering, you would get really gifted people vying for it. Especially with the lifestyle it offers. Weekends, vacations, and summer off? Come ON. I'd totally go for it. And that's how you get the good people to be teachers.
-Doc Lightning-

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fr8mech
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:45 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
If teachers were to make $100K you would get far better teachers.

So Doc, where does the money come from?

I agree, they need to be paid more...but let's pay them like everyone else is paid...at a rate that the market bears. In order to raise the teacher salaries, in the public school systems, we must gain efficiencies. The 1st step in that is to eliminate the dead wood.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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StarAC17
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:54 pm



Quoting KAUST (Reply 1):
pay athletes and movie stars less

For their unique 1 in a million talents they actually deserve what they get paid because some richer guy is willing to pay athletes and movie stars that money. Remember you are worth what someone is willing to pay you.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
OlegShv
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:20 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
Weekends, vacations, and summer off? Come ON.

I work with an engineering prof. Summers off? You're kidding! Summer is the only real time when you can get research done, generate new ideas, and write more proposals to get money to support graduate students, and write journal papers. Vacation? He gets one week off during the entire year. Weekends? He often sacrifices his weekends to work with students on their projects. Trust me, this is not just an isolated instance of a workaholic prof. I see other profs doing the same thing, and staying for 10-12 hours/day at work. I don't know why people get such a distorted picture of academics' lives. They work very hard for their money.
 
csavel
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:55 pm

I partially agree and my wife is a burned out ex-teacher.

Some teachers are there because they are not the brightes bulbs and school districts need teachers. Many, if not MOST teachers are there for dedication. If increasing pay substantially comes hand in hand with performance standards and quality standards in general I say Amen.

But also school resources must be increased, parents must be held accountable for the deplorable behaviour of their offspring. My wife says that elementary school is fine, high school is surprisingly fine because all the trouble makers have already dropped out or are clients of the, ehem, "criminal justice system." But middle school is hell. how more teachers don't go postal, I don't know. Teachers can't beat the crap out of the kids, not that I am advocating that anyway, but even the very best teachers are fighting a losing battle. Thus

REQUIRE under penalty of law that parents attend at least one parent-teacher conference/semester.

make parents CRIMINALLY responsible for their childrens' bad behavior in school. Fine the parents for their kids truancy. Fine the parents 100 dollars for every time (Maybe give two passes) per year that the kid gets sent to the principal's office.

Throw more resources so a smart enterprising kid who is willing to bust his butt but lives in the Bronx and goes to PS whatever has the same chance to if not go to a tony private school, then to get into Bronx Science, or something similar.

Do the othe things, weed out the teachers that act like they were inspiration for the teachers on the Simpsons and I will gladly support paying them more.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
lowrider
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:08 pm



Quoting Csavel (Reply 25):
But also school resources must be increased

Don't know about where you live, but education is the largest budget item in this state. Yet every year the schools demand more money at a rate that far outstrips population growth or inflation. If they don't get it, they threaten to take it out on the students and families via a reduction in busing, and increased lab and sports fees. If our schools were improving in overall performance as a result in increasing funds, then I might listen to their case, but they are not. The schools are not even held accountable for the money they already have, let alone the additional money they are demanding. Why shouldn't school districts have to learn to live within their means? When I ask my mother in law where all this money goes, I told , "Oh it is mostly to cover administrative expenses and new cirriculum". When I ask what was wrong with the old cirriculum I get told that this new cirriculum is better. Many companies are having to cope with lower revenues, and many employees are taking pay and benefit reductions. I can't remember the last time I heard of this happening in a school district or any government job.
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csavel
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:11 pm

Lowrider you raise a good point, and just like I would be willing to pay more for teachers for excellence, but ONLY for excellence, the money for schools aind infrastructure has to be tied for excellence and ridding bureaucracy.

Part of the problem is that in many states schools are funded by local property taxes. While not socialist and I think basically people should reap their rewards, kids are already f**ked if they grow up in a poor town. More equity for equipment is essential. Again, this isn't to throw money down the rat hole but a motivated kid in the Bronx should have the almost same access to resources as a motivated kid in Scarsdale.

Frankly I think a lot of the new equipment isn't the latest fancy e-learning platform, but just quality up-to-date books, lab equipment, computers, and school supplies, access to extraordinary public libraries, vo-tech training and the like.

Plus I think a requirement in the US for graduation must be

1) Civics class
2) Public service of some kind.
3) Basic foreign language skills
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
Alessandro
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RE: School Teachers Should Be Paid More.

Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:08 pm



Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 23):
pay athletes and movie stars less

For their unique 1 in a million talents they actually deserve what they get paid because some richer guy is willing to pay athletes and movie stars that money. Remember you are worth what someone is willing to pay you.

It´s up to people to pay them, salary caps seem to be a thing for certain team sports, otherwise I don´t see any limits.
Teacher´s are a much bigger group.
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