solarix
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:32 pm

I am no Bush defender. Hell, the guy is too left wing for me, but I still think its ridiculous to applaud some hadji throwing shoes at Bush.
Bong Hits 4 Jesus
 
greggarious
Posts: 239
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:46 pm

No no no no NO!!!

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 99):
Sad . Its sad I have friends actually risking there lives to defend your type. Sad that we have great Americans in harms way trying to bring some form of sane governemnt and freedom to these people.

You've got some nerve painting critics of the war in this light. And then saying that we're putting our best and brightest in harm's way so benevolently. It doesn't matter how Iraq turns out, we had no justification to invade in 2003, and we have pushed ourselves to the brink of financial bankruptcy in an attempt to rectify our grave mistake in doing so.
 
Marco
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:59 pm

So you believe that Iraq was a better nation under Saddam Hussiens rule. That the Iraqis will again go to the polls for free and fair elections in a month or so where they will actually be able to choose without fear of a knock on the door at midnight is something you abhor?

An an Iraqi, let me make one thing clear to you. It is none of your business, nor the business of your incompetent "president" to decide the fate of Iraq or to ask us if we were better under Saddam.

The fact of the matter remains that you are occupiers and need to get out!
We do not need to justify ourselves in our own land to anyone else.

[Edited 2008-12-15 11:06:51]
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
smcmac32msn
Posts: 1658
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:03 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 94):
That would actually be oh God and the "we can't fathom two fronts in the same war" crowd has made its presence known.



Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 98):
Look at the position of the country now.... both sides have united to try to get the Americans out of their land.



Quoting Marco (Reply 103):
The fact of the matter remains that you are occupiers and need to get out!
We do not need to justify ourselves in our own land to anyone else.

Oh the war defenders, when will they learn Marco? You just knocked them off their feet.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
IgneousRocks
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:04 pm



Quoting Greggarious (Reply 102):
... and we have pushed ourselves to the brink of financial bankruptcy in an attempt to rectify our grave mistake in doing so.

Not sure what point you are trying to make.

The financial troubles in the U.S. (and elsewhere) have nothing to due with the invasion of Iraq in 2003. It sounds like you've absorbed some eggheaded academic's frothing at the mouth hook, line and sinker – guess that's what you get in today's college environment. Yikes.
I can take your igneous rocks or leave 'em. I relate primarily to micas, quartz, feldspar.
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:08 pm



Quoting IgneousRocks (Reply 105):
The financial troubles in the U.S. (and elsewhere) have nothing to due with the invasion of Iraq in 2003. It sounds like you've absorbed some eggheaded academic's frothing at the mouth hook, line and sinker – guess that's what you get in today's college environment. Yikes.

Pumping billions of our taxes to bullets and hand gernades in Iraq has nothing to do with our problems? Get over yourself. Money is made by the US Reserve Bank, but they can't just start pumping out new money for no reason.... they still need collateral which is GOLD. There is only so much MONEY in the world, and its worthless without the GOLD to back it up.

Maybe if we put money towards our own schools, roads, and infrastructure we'd be a half way decent country instead of having problems like the I-35W bridge collapse, the city of Milwaukee having 168 years before a street can financially be rebuilt........ crumbling schools, and high gas prices......
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:11 pm

Great, so now shoes too will be banned from airports.  Yeah sure

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 10):
So, your saying the reporter who threw the shoes is a hero? Is that right?

I don't know about the guy who originally said that, but I sure think he is.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:27 pm



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 19):
At least he has good reflexes.

-
Very good reflexes ! So that we all now, almost at the end of his presidency, learnt something about qualities of the man !
 
RussianJet
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:38 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 108):
learnt something about qualities of the man !

Qualities? Hmm. I prefer to look at it the other way round - the guy is so stupid he couldn't even manage to stand still so that the shoe hit him.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
PSA53
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:56 pm



Quoting Greggarious (Reply 97):
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 10):

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 7):
possibly the best legacy of the presidency.

So, your saying the reporter who threw the shoes is a hero? Is that right?


Yeah, I'd say that.

Then I'm sorry you choose thugs for hero's.If a Saddam-like individual was in power,the reporter would have been shot.But I guess you can't understand that.

In ten years time,when you grow up,and hopefully your mentality changes,you can appricaite the forthcoming freedom the Iraq people will have.And in ten years,history will record Obama as been given credit for that freedom.

Freedom is never cheap.1776 lives in the US.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:01 pm



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 110):
In ten years time,when you grow up,and hopefully your mentality changes,you can appricaite the forthcoming freedom the Iraq people will have.

Freedom?? We just wanted another place to set up a permanent air base/hell hole for our soldiers to bake in. Unfortunately we'll never leave Iraq...... just ask the Somalians, Japanese, Kiwis, Germans, and Brits.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
PSA53
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:10 pm



Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 111):
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 110):
In ten years time,when you grow up,and hopefully your mentality changes,you can appricaite the forthcoming freedom the Iraq people will have.

Freedom?? We just wanted another place to set up a permanent air base/hell hole for our soldiers to bake in. Unfortunately we'll never leave Iraq...... just ask the Somalians, Japanese, Kiwis, Germans, and Brits.

I agree with closing some bases.No doubt.But Russia's future is uncertain right now which makes the US nervous about closing bases.The Middle East has proven to be a place of delivering the big hurt at any cost.Case in point,Iran wants to take Israel off the map.

So,should we say,f**k it,and bring everybody home?We would save billions of dollars.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:14 pm

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 110):
.If a Saddam-like individual was in power,the reporter would have been shot.But I guess you can't understand that.

And I guess you can't understand that just because the devil takes on a more attractive form and likes to use the word 'freedom' a lot, he is still the devil. If the worst that happens to Bush is that he gets shoes lobbed at him, then he has been extremely lucky.

[Edited 2008-12-15 12:55:29]
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
AircraftGeek
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:14 pm



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 110):
Freedom is never cheap.1776 lives in the US.

Thanks for your freedom.

Signed,

600,000+ (dead) Iraqis
Nothing is fool-proof given a sufficiently skilled fool
 
solarix
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:18 pm

Pull the troops out of Iraq and bring in the Enola Gay for one last farewell flight.
Bong Hits 4 Jesus
 
Klaus
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:20 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 90):
So you believe that Iraq was a better nation under Saddam Hussiens rule. That the Iraqis will again go to the polls for free and fair elections in a month or so where they will actually be able to choose without fear of a knock on the door at midnight is something you abhor?

Your line – the only one that you've got left after you've blown through every single other excuse by now – is that the invasion had at least some positive effects, which in your view seems to mean that in exchange for that absolutely everything else was perfectly justified and in no need of introspection or critical evaluation whatsoever.

Your rose-coloured glasses about this illegitimate invasion are costing others dearly. And exactly that kind of cynicism about the victims and the devastating consequences spoke out of Bush's remarks which inflamed the shoe-thrower.

Quoting IgneousRocks (Reply 105):
The financial troubles in the U.S. (and elsewhere) have nothing to due with the invasion of Iraq in 2003.

So great to hear that.

Then you will certainly be happy to pay up when the tax hike hits you which is needed to finance veteran care through the coming decades, besides the new debt taken up to pay for the invasion and occupation itself.

At least with Gen. Shinseki soon in charge of VA and Obama in the White House one could hope that veterans would not end up homeless and/or without care to the extent they have during this "cheap" operation under Bush...
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:20 pm

Quoting Solarix (Reply 115):
Pull the troops out of Iraq and bring in the Enola Gay for one last farewell flight.

Why waste your time? Donate 1 nuke to each of the middle eastern countries..... and walk away. Bet they won't bring them back to the US.

[Edited 2008-12-15 12:30:08]
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
Klaus
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:29 pm



Quoting Solarix (Reply 115):
Pull the troops out of Iraq and bring in the Enola Gay for one last farewell flight.

Abu Ghraib didn' satisfy you yet? Outright genocide would be more to your taste?

Maybe you shouldn't think so much about how large your chapter in history is written, maybe you should worry more about what it says!

One thing is certain: January 20th can't possibly come soon enough!
 
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cedars747
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:31 pm



Quoting Marco (Reply 103):
An an Iraqi, let me make one thing clear to you. It is none of your business, nor the business of your incompetent "president" to decide the fate of Iraq or to ask us if we were better under Saddam.

The fact of the matter remains that you are occupiers and need to get out!
We do not need to justify ourselves in our own land to anyone else.

You have all my respect Marco  thumbsup 


Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion /لدي شغف للطيران / I have a passion for aviation /Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart/ J'ai une passion pour l'aviation.
 
PSA53
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:32 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 113):
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 110):
.If a Saddam-like individual was in power,the reporter would have been shot.But I guess you can't understand that.

And I guess you can't understand that just because the devil takes on a more attractive form and likes to use the word 'freedom' a lot, he is still the devil. If the worst that happens to Bush is that he gets shoes lobbed at him, then he has been extremely lucky.

First of all,I never edorsed Bush's invasion into Iraq.But I did question that of Bill Clinton's and the democrats,not to mention the media,sudden "loss of memory" about the WMD's who supported the idea Saddam had them when Bush came to power.

What is done is done.Turn the page and think that Iraq's future,which I believe will be much brighter then before,for them and for us.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
AircraftGeek
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:43 pm



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 120):
But I did question that of Bill Clinton's and the democrats,not to mention the media,sudden "loss of memory" about the WMD's who supported the idea Saddam had them when Bush came to power.

A lot of people forget also the cooked-up intelligence books that magically appeared when Mr. Bush & Mr Cheney came to power.  mischievous 
Nothing is fool-proof given a sufficiently skilled fool
 
RussianJet
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:43 pm



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 120):
First of all,I never edorsed Bush's invasion into Iraq

Well, you still seemed to imply that Saddam being a nasty old chap was a reason to justify this mess. And, it is undeniable fact that Bush has been in power for the vast majority of this almighty screw-up. He could have put it right a million times by now if he had been so-inclined, but continues to trumpet his so-called freedom now 'enjoyed' by Iraqis today. What a sick joke.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 120):
Iraq's future,which I believe will be much brighter then before,for them and for us.

You have got to be kidding. You talk about this whole thing as though it is solved. Now, just as much as ever, the world is less stable, not more, and both we and the Iraqi population have an extremely unpredictable future. All we have is hope, but then we had that even before some halfwit son of an ex-president deceided to play God.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
11Bravo
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:47 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 99):
Its sad I have friends actually risking there lives to defend your type.

Don't lecture people about their patriotism or their service. There are lots and lots of fine Americans who disagree with the notion that you and your right-wing buddies are the "real" patriots. Isn't it great that you can safely hide behind the anonymity of the Internet and spew out your chicken-shit nonsense.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
greggarious
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:52 pm



Quoting IgneousRocks (Reply 105):
Not sure what point you are trying to make.

Are you kidding? Who is paying for this war? Look at the insane amounts of deficit spending required to finance our undertaking in Iraq! Money that could have been used to prop up Afghanistan, or eradicate smallpox in Africa (for a mere fraction of the cost!) or, especially considering how its our money, to be used to build up our aging infrastructure, or promote green industry, finance our deteriorating education system, anything but what we've done! The great tragedy of this war, aside from the horrible loss of life, is how much it will have prevented us from addressing our great needs at home.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 110):

Then I'm sorry you choose thugs for hero's.If a Saddam-like individual was in power,the reporter would have been shot.But I guess you can't understand that.

In ten years time,when you grow up,and hopefully your mentality changes,you can appricaite the forthcoming freedom the Iraq people will have.And in ten years,history will record Obama as been given credit for that freedom.

Freedom is never cheap.1776 lives in the US.

I know exactly what that means. I'm young, but please don't call me naive. I'll admit that it's wonderful that there is no longer a strongman and a gangster like Saddam who rules Iraq with an iron fist, and I'll be the first to admit that Iraqis are better off choosing their own fate than being thrown table scraps from Saddam's palaces. But I'll also be the first one to say that we were no more justified to "liberate" Iraq from the clutches of the Ba'athists than Saddam was justified to drive Iraq into the ground.

In ten years I will appreciate the freedom granted to the Iraqi people; I will be absolutely thrilled for them and wish them nothing but peace, something that has eluded Iraq for far too long. But my attitude towards the war will never change. Like you say, freedom is never cheap. But freedom imposed at gunpoint is never freedom to begin with. The Spirit of '76 was never about violently forcing a people and a nation to do away with authoritarian rule; it came about naturally, and it was a movement that came from within. 1776 is still alive in the US, but it eludes Iraq. And don't even think of saying that the ideals of our Founding Fathers were in our thoughts in late 2002 and 2003... that kind of talk only came after we realized what an inferno we had created.
 
PSA53
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:55 pm



Quoting AircraftGeek (Reply 122):
oting PSA53 (Reply 120):
But I did question that of Bill Clinton's and the democrats,not to mention the media,sudden "loss of memory" about the WMD's who supported the idea Saddam had them when Bush came to power.

A lot of people forget also the cooked-up intelligence books that magically appeared when Mr. Bush & Mr Cheney came to power

Absolutely true! That has been proven fact.Former CIA chief Tenet was the fall guy.



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 123):
RussianJet

I respect your opinions.We're at an impass.

But getting back to the thread,I will never endorse,in fact condemn,any person who puts my POTUS under threat.That also holds true for Obama.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
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cedars747
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:03 pm

Any idea which museum will exhibit Muntazar shoes ?

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion /لدي شغف للطيران / I have a passion for aviation /Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart/ J'ai une passion pour l'aviation.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:05 pm



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 11):
What I'm surprised at is secret service officers didn't quite make their presence felt after the incident. As soon as the first shoe was thrown....they should have been surrounding Bush and pushing him to the floor

You know, seeing Bush being pushed to the floor would have been the icing on the cake.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
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cedars747
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:20 pm

New TV Channel "Al Jadid"from Lebanon declared its readiness to bring the Iraqi reporter, Muntazar Zaidi to its team work

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion /لدي شغف للطيران / I have a passion for aviation /Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart/ J'ai une passion pour l'aviation.
 
dxing
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:28 pm



Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 98):
Bush apologists don't get that.... they only see a "justified" war.

And code pinks like your type only start screaming when something happens to you personally. Then there isn't enough retribution to go around.

Quoting Marco (Reply 103):
The fact of the matter remains that you are occupiers and need to get out!
We do not need to justify ourselves in our own land to anyone else.

Unfortunately you do. You have to justify why you let a man rule your country for years while starting two wars and practicing genocide on a part of the countries population while paying terrorists families in a third country and continually trying to develop weapons of mass destruction. Folks, I think we've found Baghdad Bob! He's now a member of A.Net!

Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 104):
Oh the war defenders, when will they learn Marco? You just knocked them off their feet.

When he can answer the questions above then he might have a leg to stand on.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 116):
Your line

Correct and one you are continually unable to answer since you ignore the multiple reasons that were listed before the invasion began as to why we were going in.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 116):
for that absolutely everything else was perfectly justified and in no need of introspection or critical evaluation whatsoever.

Every military manuever needs to be evaluated as to effectiveness for future reference. This action certainly has presented problems but since we are on the verge of being able to pull out our troops and leave behind a government that is gaining strength and experience at governing everyday, the end is a sucess and still worth the cost. You won't see that since your country resists getting into the fight even in Afghanistan.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 116):
Your rose-coloured glasses about this illegitimate invasion

Here we go, no way to argue the point so the invansion becomes "illigitimate". And you accuse me of making excuses?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 116):
And exactly that kind of cynicism about the victims and the devastating consequences spoke out of Bush's remarks which inflamed the shoe-thrower.

That man was inflamed before he got in there. This was just a way to act up. Notice no other Iraqi journalist in the room joined in by throwing their shoes.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
RussianJet
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:34 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 129):
Unfortunately you do. You have to justify why you let a man rule your country for years while starting two wars and practicing genocide on a part of the countries population while paying terrorists families in a third country and continually trying to develop weapons of mass destruction. Folks, I think we've found Baghdad Bob! He's now a member of A.Net!

Oh my word. You seriously think victims of brutal repression need to justify becoming victims in the fist place to you or indeed anyone else? that's one of the most insensitive, offensive posts I've seen here, and that's saying something. Wow.

Oh, it could also be that you're the only one left in the world who believes the WMD argument. Must be a pretty lonely existence. Also, did it escape your notice that it was officially stated there was no link between Iraq and 11/9? (9/11 to those who write the date the wrong way round).
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
Klaus
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:28 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 129):
Unfortunately you do. You have to justify why you let a man rule your country for years while starting two wars

It is so sad that the irony oozing out of your statements completely eludes you...!  mischievous 

Quoting DXing (Reply 129):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 116):
Your line

Correct and one you are continually unable to answer since you ignore the multiple reasons that were listed before the invasion began as to why we were going in.

I have explicitly addressed the multiple pretenses which have all been proven wrong.

Quoting DXing (Reply 129):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 116):
for that absolutely everything else was perfectly justified and in no need of introspection or critical evaluation whatsoever.

Every military manuever needs to be evaluated as to effectiveness for future reference. This action certainly has presented problems but since we are on the verge of being able to pull out our troops and leave behind a government that is gaining strength and experience at governing everyday, the end is a sucess and still worth the cost.

Wow. Your last lines of defense are retracted to such a pitiful definition of "success" that any citizens of Iraq could only shake their heads on the aggressive cynicism it betrays.

Quoting DXing (Reply 129):
You won't see that since your country resists getting into the fight even in Afghanistan.

Cheap pot shot, and blatantly untrue. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Quoting DXing (Reply 129):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 116):
Your rose-coloured glasses about this illegitimate invasion

Here we go, no way to argue the point so the invansion becomes "illigitimate". And you accuse me of making excuses?

See above. And the illegitimacy of the invasion simply results from the fact that there was no plausible or (as required) imminent threat to the USA from Iraq, as much as that false claim has been made. It was a deliberate invasion of another country without any emergency legitimizing it.

I know that some people have thrown questions of legality overboard such a long time ago that they can't even remember any more what that was all about. But maybe you should try to remember some of it again.

Quoting DXing (Reply 129):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 116):
And exactly that kind of cynicism about the victims and the devastating consequences spoke out of Bush's remarks which inflamed the shoe-thrower.

That man was inflamed before he got in there.

Source?

Quoting DXing (Reply 129):
This was just a way to act up. Notice no other Iraqi journalist in the room joined in by throwing their shoes.

I am shocked and awed by the power of your argumentation...!  Wow!
 
Dougloid
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:35 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 131):
Quoting DXing (Reply 129):
This was just a way to act up. Notice no other Iraqi journalist in the room joined in by throwing their shoes.

I am shocked and awed by the power of your argumentation...!

Henceforth all Iraqi journalists will not be admitted to the Green Zone unless they are barefoot.


 hissyfit   hissyfit   hissyfit   hissyfit   hissyfit 
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
dxing
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:15 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 131):
have explicitly addressed the multiple pretenses which have all been proven wrong.

Really, freeing the people of Iraq and helping them to set up a democratic government has been proven wrong? How many free and fair elections must they have before you change your mind?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 131):
Wow. Your last lines of defense are retracted to such a pitiful definition of "success" that any citizens of Iraq could only shake their heads on the aggressive cynicism it betrays.

Your source of this intimate observation? Or are you basing it on the actions of one man?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 131):
Cheap pot shot, and blatantly untrue. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Sorry, not a cheap shot, guess the truth hurts. They're too busy drinking beer in the rear to come out and help fight.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...-fight-Taliban-drink-boys-dry.html

Quoting Klaus (Reply 131):
See above. And the illegitimacy of the invasion simply results from the fact that there was no plausible or (as required) imminent threat to the USA from Iraq, as much as that false claim has been made. It was a deliberate invasion of another country without any emergency legitimizing it.

At the time of the invasion that was not known and still does not change the other reasons for the invasion nor make them illegitimate.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 131):
Source?

Soon as you source how you know he became inflamed at what President Bush was saying I'll retract the statement.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 131):
I am shocked and awed by the power of your argumentation...!

I continue to be amazed at the pretzel turns of logic you have to use to deny the country is better off without Saddam than with or that the people have functioning democracy after decades of dictatorship.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:26 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 99):

Sad . Its sad I have friends actually risking there lives to defend your type.

I have friends in the armed forces who have done tours in Iraq who feel the same way as "that type". What the hell is your point? Free speech anyone?

Quoting DXing (Reply 129):
You have to justify why you let a man rule your country for years while starting two wars and practicing genocide on a part of the countries population

Should we not demand the same justification from citizens of the x number of countries who are doing (or have done) jack shit about genocide in their backyards? Scared people under oppressive rule are lazy...is that the equivocation now? Shame on the Burmese, shame on the Sudanese, shame on the Afghans, shame on the whole of the former Yugoslavia, shame on 1970s Chileans and Cambodians!! Is that really how it goes?

Eventually chickens come home to roost. With the exception of a few on the above list, conditions tend to get bad enough that people can't take it anymore. When even those benefiting from the dictator's friendship can benefit by assisting in their ouster, it doesn't take long for the other shoes to drop. If we're going to trot out the tired genocide justification for Saddam's removal, then the logic goes like this: the Iraqi people eventually could have seen him and his sons out the door, but we never gave them the chance. You know full well the condition of their military at the time we went in. Their secret police couldn't have been far behind. Hence with the knowledge we have now about the intelligence then, Saddam's removal and subsquent destabilization of the region was a monumental miscalculation, misuse of money, equipment, and focus.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
victrola
Posts: 716
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:31 pm

RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:34 pm



Quoting Captaink (Reply 71):
Its a real messy situation. Bush got them out of the mess with Saddam and led them into another. It is difficult to come out a winner in this situation. Maybe some prefer to be under the Saddam regime



Quoting DXing (Reply 90):
So you believe that Iraq was a better nation under Saddam Hussiens rule. That the Iraqis will again go to the polls for free and fair elections in a month or so where they will actually be able to choose without fear of a knock on the door at midnight is something you abhor?



Quoting Marco (Reply 103):
The fact of the matter remains that you are occupiers and need to get out!
We do not need to justify ourselves in our own land to anyone else.

I think it was Machiavelli who said a people get the government they deserve. I think it was a big mistake to overthrow Saddam Hussain. I believe the Iraqi people did indeed deserve him.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:51 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 134):
Should we not demand the same justification from citizens of the x number of countries who are doing (or have done) jack shit about genocide in their backyards?

Yes.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 134):
Is that really how it goes?

It's the way it ought to. The posters reply said that I was in no position to criticize. I disagee. Given the threat that Saddam had been to his direct neighbors and his possible threat to the world at large we have every right to criticize him for not doing something about it much sooner. I know where you are going with this and yes, the monarchy in SA should open up the government but so far they have yet to do two of the qualifiers that Saddam had going for him, make war on their neighbors and attempt to build wmd's. Your reply focused on only one of those preconditions for a country like the U.S. going in and doing something to change the situation.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 134):
the Iraqi people eventually could have seen him and his sons out the door, but we never gave them the chance.

12 years? How much of a chance did you want to give them?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 134):
Hence with the knowledge we have now about the intelligence then, Saddam's removal and subsquent destabilization of the region was a monumental miscalculation, misuse of money, equipment, and focus.

I disagree that removing him has destabilized the region. I also disagree that it was a waste of money, equipment, or focus. Again, for the umpteenth time, you can put as many boots on the ground in Afghanistan as you wish, but as long as Pakistan remains safe sanctuary for AQ and/or the Taliban it won't make much of a difference.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 10253
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:58 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 136):
Given the threat that Saddam had been to his direct neighbors

One of whom was Iran for more than two decades. When did that not serve our interests?

Quoting DXing (Reply 136):
possible threat to the world at large

Pakistan and the DPRK are possible threats to the world at large, but they've been dealt with quite differently. Six-party talks in the latter case in a region just as potentially explosive.

Quoting DXing (Reply 136):
I disagree that removing him has destabilized the region.



The above would never be seen under Saddam's rule. If you think being used by opportunists isn't destabilization in some form, you're nuts.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Klaus
Posts: 21338
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:29 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 133):
Really, freeing the people of Iraq and helping them to set up a democratic government has been proven wrong?

Read again what I've said.

The problem is that you're refusing to confront the massive collateral damage caused in the process. Not even at home, let alone in Iraq.

Quoting DXing (Reply 133):
Sorry, not a cheap shot, guess the truth hurts. They're too busy drinking beer in the rear to come out and help fight.

There are reports about other western forces (specifically including the american ones) which are almost exactly interchangeable with that one, which says hardly anything about the actual Afghanistan mission.

Which, by the way, is a major disaster even and especially in the regions where the grandiose plans of the US leadership have been implemented, basically giving the drug barons / warlords free reign and then trying to bomb the civilian population into loving acceptance of the foreign forces. Now how could a brilliant plan like that ever have gone wrong...?  crazy 

Quoting DXing (Reply 133):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 131):
See above. And the illegitimacy of the invasion simply results from the fact that there was no plausible or (as required) imminent threat to the USA from Iraq, as much as that false claim has been made. It was a deliberate invasion of another country without any emergency legitimizing it.

At the time of the invasion that was not known and still does not change the other reasons for the invasion nor make them illegitimate.

Are you joking? Have you missed the extensive international debate about the then-impending invasion, where all these things have been predicted as they have turned out since then?

"Freedom fries", anyone? Remember how that sad episode came about? The debates in the UNSC?

No? Well...

Quoting DXing (Reply 133):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 131):
Source?

Soon as you source how you know he became inflamed at what President Bush was saying I'll retract the statement.

The sequence of events as recorded makes this conclusion highly plausible.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21338
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:33 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 136):
I disagree that removing him has destabilized the region.

If only.

Try reading up on the news and history of the past five years.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:24 am



Quoting Victrola (Reply 135):
I think it was Machiavelli who said a people get the government they deserve.

That's been ascribed to a number of people.

http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1...le+get+the+government+they+deserve

With all due respect to the assembled multitude-and you know who you are-the question here is not "was the invasion of Iraq justified by the state of knowledge that existed at the time?"(-it was not)-but what gets done with the mess that's left behind.

jabbering about how stupid Bush was (and he was) and all that flows from that does not change the fundamental issue of what do we do, now that we're here?

So. How to evaluate the project?

There's no doubt things have changed forever. The Kurds now have a homeland. The Shia have had the yoke of the Sunni lifted-which always puzzled me being as they are a large majority, and this also suggests that sooner or later majorities ruled by minorities go under one way or another, viz., the wreckage formerly known as Rhodesia, etc etc. The gang of thugs that ruled Iraq is gone for good. Perhaps to be replaced by another gang of thugs, but that will be because the Iraqis themselves wish it.

The fact that there's an independent TV Network operating in Baghdad is a hopeful sign, because a free and independent press is a check on the excesses and exactions of government.

A form of representative government is in place. One hopes that the structure will take root and survive, even after the Iraqis deal with the Quislings in their midst after we are gone.

Was any of this worth all the casualties? Probably not.

But it is what it is, and thinking people will always move forward from that point, rather than argue about who's to blame. That only takes you so far in this world. Out of change comes opportunity even if it's not something you asked for.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:26 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 137):
Pakistan and the DPRK are possible threats to the world at large, but they've been dealt with quite differently. Six-party talks in the latter case in a region just as potentially explosive.

And those talks have collapsed.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori...fp_asiapacific/view/396116/1/.html

Again, do they fit the qualifiers that Iraq fit? The only country that NK has attacked is South Korea and at that time is was considered a war of reunifcation.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 137):
If you think being used by opportunists isn't destabilization in some form, you're nuts.

Yet there are reports out this week about how Iran has steeply curtailed the amount of EFD's they had been sending across the border. al-Sadr, Iran's fair haired boy, has been beaten every time he has come up against Iraqi national forces.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/809188.html

Quoting Klaus (Reply 138):
The problem is that you're refusing to confront the massive collateral damage caused in the process.

No action as was undertaken by the U.S. would be void of collateral damage. Had the WMD'd been there you would still be operating under the assumption that we should not have gone in so the rest is pointless. The old saying is true that Utopians always die with a suprised look on their face.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 138):
There are reports about other western forces (specifically including the american ones) which are almost exactly interchangeable with that one, which says hardly anything about the actual Afghanistan mission.

American forces are dry so drinking too much beer is not a factor. Face it, the German Bundeswehr of today is a far cry from the Wehrmacht soldier of WW2 in terms of physical fitness. When it comes to defense Germany remains a parasite nation.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 138):
and then trying to bomb the civilian population into loving acceptance of the foreign forces.

That's right, we go out and indiscriminately bomb and strafe civilians at every opportunity.  sarcastic 

Quoting Klaus (Reply 138):
The sequence of events as recorded makes this conclusion highly plausible.

As does mine. Read the link below. The man has had problems with the occupation for some time.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 138):
The debates in the UNSC?

You mean the one that included those governments that had back door deals going with Saddam as well as the UN reps involved in the Oil for Food scam?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 139):
Try reading up on the news and history of the past five years.

Try reading up on the news from the past 5 months. Of course that would present you with a country that is settling down as well as a neighbor that is realizing that the best course of action is to do nothing.

According to this story the only thing missing was the "Don't tase me bro" line at the end when the Iraqi security guards wrestled him to the ground.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081215/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq_shoe_tosser

Al-Zeidi may have also been motivated by what a colleague described as a boastful, showoff personality.
"He tried to raise topics to show that nobody is as smart as he is," said Zanko Ahmed, a Kurdish journalist who attended a journalism training course with al-Zeidi in Lebanon.
Ahmed recalled that al-Zeidi spoke glowingly of anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, whose followers organized protests Monday to demand his release.
"Regrettably, he didn't learn anything from the course in Lebanon, where we were taught ethics of journalism and how to be detached and neutral," Ahmed said.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 10253
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:45 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 141):
And those talks have collapsed.

Irrelevant counterpoint. Anything is possible, as Christopher Hill himself continually states in his quietly stern regard for his DPRK counterparts.

The same phrase can be applied to the conditions we now see in a moderately stable Iraq. There is no telling what the future holds, and there are no guarantees we won't see an unfriendly government environment that harms our interests in the near future. All externalities that were known possible outcomes of an invasion.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:40 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 141):
The old saying is true that Utopians always die with a suprised look on their face.

Oh god he is back to Utopia. You do not even get it that the Bushies were trying to impose their version of Utopia on Iraq - your beloved elections and all, which is hysterical coming from a country that has serious problems with its own elections in the near past - and instead imposed a Dystopia of historic dimensions. Hoping it will all turn out for the best in the end is hardly a substitute for policy that is acceptable. As the journalist said, hurling another shoe "this is for the widows of Iraq" or words to that effect.

Really Rj, you seem to have become more extreme since your change of persona.

My choice excerpts from the exchanges:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 86):

Quoting DXing (Reply 91):
As the President said, the man was trying to draw attention to himself. People do that all the time at political rallies and as he is being driven down the street. I suppose you feel that PE Obama will not face the same sorts of gestures when he takes office?

You're on par with Bush in terms of denial.

Yep, de Nile apparently now runs through EyeRaack.

Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 100):
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 99):

You're defending this war as a matter of aesthetics?? Seriously?? They've lived there since the beginning of mankind, and have their traditions.... just as we do. Leave them be. If you want to bother with how neighborhoods look, go help fix up the inner city of any major urban area.

Well indeed, how many are really in a position to throw stones at the Iraq state, and especially those who nearly 6 years after the invasion have still not restored utilities to their lousy pre-war condition?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 131):
Quoting DXing (Reply 129):
Unfortunately you do. You have to justify why you let a man rule your country for years while starting two wars

It is so sad that the irony oozing out of your statements completely eludes you...!

But do not give up on irony for all Americans Klaus
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3433375.stm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 134):
Eventually chickens come home to roost. With the exception of a few on the above list, conditions tend to get bad enough that people can't take it anymore. When even those benefiting from the dictator's friendship can benefit by assisting in their ouster, it doesn't take long for the other shoes to drop. If we're going to trot out the tired genocide justification for Saddam's removal, then the logic goes like this: the Iraqi people eventually could have seen him and his sons out the door, but we never gave them the chance. You know full well the condition of their military at the time we went in. Their secret police couldn't have been far behind. Hence with the knowledge we have now about the intelligence then, Saddam's removal and subsquent destabilization of the region was a monumental miscalculation, misuse of money, equipment, and focus.



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 137):
The above would never be seen under Saddam's rule. If you think being used by opportunists isn't destabilization in some form, you're nuts.

And thank you Aaron for an excellent summary. Interesting how an Iraqi journo heaving shoes rapidly caused some to debate issue they have shied away from as best they can. So well "potted" Aaron.
 
BA
Posts: 10501
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:00 am

I don't think people realize the real significance of this.

In Arab culture, throwing a shoe at someone is the biggest insult possible.

This is a great article by Arab-American comedian Dean Obeidallah about this issue:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-o...tossing-an-arab-pers_b_151090.html

Here's an article that talks about the shoe thrower's motives, he is frustrated at both the U.S. military occupation and Iran's interference in Iraq:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081216/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq_shoe_tosser
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Marco
Posts: 4006
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:18 am

Unfortunately you do. You have to justify why you let a man rule your country for years while starting two wars and practicing genocide on a part of the countries population while paying terrorists families in a third country and continually trying to develop weapons of mass destruction. Folks, I think we've found Baghdad Bob! He's now a member of A.Net!


No, you've got it all wrong, we do not. This American mentality that everyone needs to answer to the USA does not work well with anyone around the world. If most of you would bother to get a passport and travel, you would soon come to that same conclusion!

If he was developing weapons of mass destruction (which was the pretext...albeit false pretext... of this war), could you please tell us where they are?

No one is perfect and that includes Saddam, but the fact of the matter is that your president and his father have FAR more blood on their hands. Their actions have displaced millions, led to hundreds of thousands deaths (if not millions if we include the devestating sanctions imposed by the USA errr UN), including my own FAMILY members and you have the audicity to talk to me about genocides committed by Saddam?

Bush deserved everything he got, I do not understand how someone can have the face to go a country where he has essentially caused hundreds of thousands of deaths, removed a secular dictator and brought in a religious fundamentalist militia man as a "democratically-elected president" and has the nerve to say that he did it for America's "security"!

Unbelievable!

And please do not resort to insults and name throwing, as I have not done that with you.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
smcmac32msn
Posts: 1658
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 9:25 am

RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:53 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 133):
Really, freeing the people of Iraq and helping them to set up a democratic government has been proven wrong?



Quoting DXing (Reply 141):
The only country that NK has attacked is South Korea and at that time is was considered a war of reunifcation.

So... Iraq is different from DPRK and SK how?? Under your claims we are trying to unite 2 opposing forces that have been at it for thousands of years. Iraq may as well be 2 seperate countries (Sunni & Shi'te).... and its been handled different than the Korean situation because the US has an ally in South Korea. US has no ally in Iraq. Why can't you get it through your thick skull that maybe we should be spending billions of dollars at home so we can fix problems so another I-35 disaster or Katrina disaster doesn't happen again here. You don't understand that we can't play god around the world. We've devalued our country by attacking Iraq to the tune of BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 143):
Well indeed, how many are really in a position to throw stones at the Iraq state, and especially those who nearly 6 years after the invasion have still not restored utilities to their lousy pre-war condition?

I totally agree, as I said, he's worried about trash floating down an Iraqi street? Why not trash floating down a street in St. Louis, Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, or Dallas first? Shouldn't we be focused on making our own lives better before worrying about making others lives better?
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
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cedars747
Posts: 2673
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:04 am

RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:46 am



Quoting Marco (Reply 145):
No, you've got it all wrong, we do not. This American mentality that everyone needs to answer to the USA does not work well with anyone around the world. If most of you would bother to get a passport and travel, you would soon come to that same conclusion!

Marco you are AMAZING !

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion /لدي شغف للطيران / I have a passion for aviation /Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart/ J'ai une passion pour l'aviation.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:39 am



Quoting Victrola (Reply 135):
I believe the Iraqi people did indeed deserve him.

Care to tell us why?
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
Elite
Posts: 2297
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:29 pm

It appears the shoe thrower has been beaten in custody:

"Muntadar al-Zaidi has suffered a broken hand, broken ribs and internal bleeding, as well as an eye injury, his older brother, Dargham, told the BBC. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7785338.stm
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Shoes Thrown At President Bush - Video

Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:38 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 148):
It appears the shoe thrower has been beaten in custody:

"Muntadar al-Zaidi has suffered a broken hand, broken ribs and internal bleeding, as well as an eye injury, his older brother, Dargham, told the BBC. "

No great surprise there. I bet he is really loving the 'freedom' Iraq is now enjoying. I wonder when he might pop up in Cuba? Shoe throwing? Surely that deserves a good water-boarding, doesn't it?
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈

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