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bmacleod
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Bush's Farewell Address

Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:48 pm

It will be interesting to hear what President Bush says in his farewell speech expected early next month.

Will he admit his mistakes? "I regret to say that I have failed in many areas as your leader..."

Unlikely he will mention his failures; but should an interesting speech....
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
Confuscius
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:08 pm



Quoting Bmacleod (Thread starter):
Will he admit his mistakes? "I regret to say that I have failed in many areas as your leader..."

More likely "Bring 'em on...throw that shoe at me."
Ain't I a stinker?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:59 pm



Quoting Bmacleod (Thread starter):
It will be interesting to hear what President Bush says in his farewell speech expected early next month. Will he admit his mistakes? "I regret to say that I have failed in many areas as your leader..."

Unlikely he will mention his failures; but should an interesting speech....

I expect you will probably see something a bit like his commencement speech at Texas A&M University last week. Regarding the popular opinion of his administration:

"Remember that popularity is as fleeting as the Texas wind. Character and conscience are as sturdy as the oaks on this campus. If you go home at night, look in the mirror and be satisfied that you have done what is right, you will pass the only test that matters."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28192335/
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Superfly
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:08 pm

Can Obama start early?

Does Bush really need to stick around until January 20th?
Bring back the Concorde
 
NIKV69
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:21 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
Can Obama start early?

No the rock star can wait.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
Does Bush really need to stick around until January 20th?

Yes we don't have to change the constitution for anyone. What is even more funny is you see the sign he has on his podium at his press confreneces? "Office of the president elect" I don't think there is such a thing but there is now LOL.

Relax boys Jan 20th will be soon enough for your boy to begin governing from the center right.

Quoting Bmacleod (Thread starter):
It will be interesting to hear what President Bush says in his farewell speech expected early next month.

Will he admit his mistakes? "I regret to say that I have failed in many areas as your leader..."

Unlikely he will mention his failures; but should an interesting speech....

I think it will be a pretty mundane speech but I doubt he will impress you.
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Superfly
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:34 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 4):
Yes we don't have to change the constitution for anyone. What is even more funny is you see the sign he has on his podium at his press confreneces? "Office of the president elect" I don't think there is such a thing but there is now LOL.

It was a joke originally by David Letterman.  Smile
Calm down NIKV69.
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NIKV69
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:36 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
It was a joke originally by David Letterman.
Calm down NIKV69

Dave? I don''t watch him much, he was good 10 years ago but not much now. I bet you only watch him cause he is on so early.  biggrin 
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
Superfly
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:39 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
I don''t watch him much, he was good 10 years ago but not much now. I bet you only watch him cause he is on so early

I don't watch him at all.
That was from a clip a friend emailed to me.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:13 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2):
If you go home at night, look in the mirror and be satisfied that you have done what is right, you will pass the only test that matters.

That kind of sentiment is known in some circles as self-delusion. I guess it would be necessary under some circumstances, I'm just not that good at lying to myself.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
dxing
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:34 am

Quoting Bmacleod (Thread starter):
Unlikely he will mention his failures; but should an interesting speech....

His "failures" if you want to call them that, as well as his successes, if you want to call them that, won't really be apparent for several years to come. No President who just steps out of office can have an accurate historical record written about him.

No matter what he says I'd be willing to bet they won't be a fraction as crass or outright insulting as Barney Frank were on 60 minutes last night. The banking queen showed just how low brow he can be.

[Edited 2008-12-15 18:35:19]

[Edited 2008-12-15 18:36:19]

[Edited 2008-12-15 18:36:55]
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Dreadnought
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:33 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 8):
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2):
If you go home at night, look in the mirror and be satisfied that you have done what is right, you will pass the only test that matters.

That kind of sentiment is known in some circles as self-delusion. I guess it would be necessary under some circumstances, I'm just not that good at lying to myself.

I strongly disagree. The measure of character is indeed your ability to look on your actions and be satisfied that you acted honorably and in the best way you possibly could at the time in relation to your responsibilities.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:40 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
The measure of character is indeed your ability to look on your actions and be satisfied that you acted honorably and in the best way you possibly could at the time in relation to your responsibilities.

At the time is a convenient qualifier. The other half of the character equation is being able to recognize that one has made mistakes and do what's necessary to overcome their effects to whatever extent one's responsibilities allow. That's what inherently good people do.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Confuscius
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:53 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 8):
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2):
If you go home at night, look in the mirror and be satisfied that you have done what is right, you will pass the only test that matters.

That kind of sentiment is known in some circles as self-delusion. I guess it would be necessary under some circumstances, I'm just not that good at lying to myself.

I strongly disagree. The measure of character is indeed your ability to look on your actions and be satisfied that you acted honorably and in the best way you possibly could at the time in relation to your responsibilities.

"And I'm gonna help people! Because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and, doggonit, people like me!"

Daily Affirmation by soon to be Sen.-elect Stuart Smalley (D)- MN
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Mir
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:54 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
The measure of character is indeed your ability to look on your actions and be satisfied that you acted honorably and in the best way you possibly could at the time in relation to your responsibilities.

I strongly disagree. With that logic, you can excuse any poor performance by simply saying "I was doing the best that I could".

Doing your best is only half the battle. The other half is acknowledging the times when your best isn't good enough, and learning from those experiences so that the next time around, the same mistakes won't be made.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
wn700driver
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:57 am

No, he will not apologize for the sake of satisfying transient partisan interests. Should any President?

I think it is truly amazing that though we have no clue what the lasting effects of his presidency will be (I sincerely hope that expansions Chenney helped garner for the executive branch will be reversed one day, we'll see...), we still think we know how this whole mess ought to be seen.

I know there will always be people who by nature have to contrarian to any authority, and people who have political interests on the other side of the spectrum. This is normal. But the amount of otherwise intelligent people who are jumping on the anti-Bush bandwagon just because is astounding. And a little disturbing. I'm not saying that Bush did a great job or anything, but it just seems like this whole meme of Bush and the republicans as evil and inept dictators of America bent on world domination has frankly degenerated into the McDonalds of modern political analysis.

The fact is that the last eight years have been a terribly complex period in our history. This whole thought of Bush as evil, Obama as our new and exalted saviour reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Apu is trying to explain the factors leading up to the American Civil war, and the test proctor says to him "Just say Slavery. You pass."

Have we really watered ourselves down so far that mindless knee-jerk responses like

Quote:
Can Obama start early?

Does Bush really need to stick around until January 20th?

are the best we can come up with?

For the record, I don't have a dog in this race. But the left's reliance on brainless sloganism and the right's addiction to extreme religonism give me serious concerns for the future of this once great nation...
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:24 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
At the time is a convenient qualifier.

If you have figured out a way to get around our time-linear existance and foresee the future, I'm sure we all would like to hear it.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
The other half of the character equation is being able to recognize that one has made mistakes and do what's necessary to overcome their effects to whatever extent one's responsibilities allow. That's what inherently good people do.

I think he already has, although apparently not in plain enough language to satisfy many.

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
I strongly disagree. With that logic, you can excuse any poor performance by simply saying "I was doing the best that I could".

Again, if you have figured out how people can do better than what they are capable of, or know things before they happen, please tell us.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
Mir
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:58 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Again, if you have figured out how people can do better than what they are capable of, or know things before they happen, please tell us.

If I go into a test, not having done any preparation for it, and I do badly on it, it would be wrong for me to say "well, I did the best that I could on the day," and pat myself on the back, even if I did do the best that I could once I started taking the test. What I really should be doing in that case is telling myself that that result isn't acceptable, and resolving that the next time a test comes around, I'm going to change my approach so that the result is different.

Under your ideology, there would never be any improvement, because people would be too busy congratulating themselves for doing the best they could. They'd never see the opportunities to make things better, because they'd never see the often very correctable mistakes they made - those mistakes would be hidden behind a wall of "good effort".

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:00 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
If I go into a test, not having done any preparation for it, and I do badly on it, it would be wrong for me to say "well, I did the best that I could on the day,"

If you did not prepare for it as best you knew how, then you did not do your best. That includes learning from your mistakes.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
Under your ideology, there would never be any improvement, because people would be too busy congratulating themselves for doing the best they could.

Your interpretation of my comments is asinine.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
Mir
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:44 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
If you did not prepare for it as best you knew how, then you did not do your best. That includes learning from your mistakes.

That's a perfectly fine way to look at it as well, and I would tend to agree. But, by that standard, I have a very hard time believing that Bush did his best.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
MOBflyer
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:25 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
Can Obama start early?

No. Thankfully.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):

Does Bush really need to stick around until January 20th?

Very much so. If he could run again, he'd have my vote in a heartbeat.

1,496 days until Obama's successor is inaugurated....
I wonder what Obama's farewell address will be?

[Edited 2008-12-16 18:34:12]
 
MOBflyer
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:31 pm

Whats up with change.gov? Change was a campaign keyword - since when can a not even sitting person essentially use an extension of the campaign with a government moniker address?

Seems just a little too hunk dory for me.
 
bmacleod
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:10 pm

Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 19):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):

Does Bush really need to stick around until January 20th?



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 19):
Very much so. If he could run again, he'd have my vote in a heartbeat

I feel the same way for Jimmy Carter and Herbert Hoover... considering they have higher approval numbers... 

[Edited 2008-12-26 15:11:57]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:52 pm



Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 21):
I feel the same way for Jimmy Carter and Herbert Hoover... considering they have higher approval numbers...

I don't think you can compare GW Bush's ratings with anyone who ever came before, with the possible exception of Bill Clinton. The reason: The Internet. Never before has there been such a widespread forum which can be used to rile people people up about a president, whether with truth or garbage. My memories go back to the Nixon-Ford days, and I have never seen the level of gutter-vitriol we have now.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
photopilot
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:04 am

I'll write Bush's good bye speech for him. It is short, simple and too the point.

"In the Race to the Bottom, I've taken the United States into the Lead. An accomplishment I'm sure we can all be proud of. God Bless America."
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Sat Dec 27, 2008 1:57 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 24):
It all started with that loud mouth turd Rush Limbaugh.

Rush was not the one who has been calling Bush a moron, a nazi, comparing him to Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, a liar, and so on. Blaming all this on Rush is a pure diversion.

And you may disagree with him, but the reason that Rush has been popular all these years is that he is a firm believer in conservatism, and has a talent for explaining his beliefs, and gives a very powerful and convincing explanation as to what has gone wrong with the Republican party these past 8 years - i.e. they stopped being conservatives. I would really like to know what you have against him, apart that you would like to silence critisism against your beliefs.

As for O'Reilly, yes, he's a blowhard, but he bends over backward to allow opposing viewpoints be heard on his show. Far more than a vast majority of hosts.

Coulter is an entertainer who thrives on bomb-throwing, but you have tons of leftist columnists who do the same thing. But sometimes she does have some pretty good points backed by facts.

Savage, I can't judge because I have never listened to him.

I am no fan of Hannity - he simply refuses to critisize Republicans, unlike O'Reilly or Rush.

None of this compares to the sheer hatred I have heard on the left.

Here is an example:

The Fascist Bush Regime has wiped their A**es with our constitution - and called it the "Patriot Act" They have sent our nations military to murder innocent people so Halliburton could rob them and called it heroism They have polluted our air and our water and called it the "clean air act" (our grandchildren will choke on their smog) They have sold our soldiers to Halliburton, sold our voice to Clear Channel and mortgaged our future to Bank of America for their own political and monetary gain. They have financed their ethnic cleansing, murder and armed robbery by racking up debt that our grandchildren will be paying off. They have raped and sodomized innocent children and called it Catholicism The World deserves better, please lord, stop these evil men and women who lie, murder, rob, exploit, and profit from evil, in your name, and on your watch. Your most wonderful creation: our planet is being destroyed by these men and no-one has raised a hand to stop them.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/[email protected]/

I mean, this sort of this is so far removed from reality that I suggest this person has mental problems. But it is commonplace. Bush Derangement Syndrome has become the leading psychological disease in the country.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
dxing
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Sat Dec 27, 2008 2:32 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 22):
Never before has there been such a widespread forum which can be used to rile people people up about a president, whether with truth or garbage. My memories go back to the Nixon-Ford days, and I have never seen the level of gutter-vitriol we have now.

Google some of the old time political cartoons. Back in Hoovers day there were how many daily's in New York, Chicago, San Francisco? The vitriol was there.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 24):
I agree.
It all started with that loud mouth turd Rush Limbaugh.
Then the rest of the thugs such as Hannity, Savage, O'Reilly, Coulter and the like followed.

Not hadly. Perhaps you should read up on Drew Pearson for just one example.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:48 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 26):
Google some of the old time political cartoons. Back in Hoovers day there were how many daily's in New York, Chicago, San Francisco? The vitriol was there.

There is a difference. In the old days, you read the paper for 30 minutes or so, later watched the news at 6:00, and maybe talked over the break room coffee pot. You did not spend hours and hours immersed in the topic, interactively increasing your blood pressure. The Internet has given us a means to obsession with current events, and I don't think its healthy either for us personally or the nation.

You might have noticed that I do not make more than a handful of entries here per day, if that. That was a conscious decision I made after I found myself spending hours and hours here getting wound up, arguing with people. Some of you might recognize yourselves.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
ag92
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:20 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 9):
His "failures" if you want to call them that, as well as his successes, if you want to call them that, won't really be apparent for several years to come. No President who just steps out of office can have an accurate historical record written about him.

You are right in that manner, a person who jumps of the 100th floor building would seem to have made an excellent decision until of course he only has one more floor to go when he realizes that death will occur to him. Something very similar here, George Bush thinks that he has done wonders for the world but soon he will realize the extent of his mistakes

Quoting WN700Driver (Reply 14):
I know there will always be people who by nature have to contrarian to any authority, and people who have political interests on the other side of the spectrum. This is normal. But the amount of otherwise intelligent people who are jumping on the anti-Bush bandwagon just because is astounding. And a little disturbing. I'm not saying that Bush did a great job or anything, but it just seems like this whole meme of Bush and the republicans as evil and inept dictators of America bent on world domination has frankly degenerated into the McDonalds of modern political analysis.

Let me start off with saying a few stuff and you must understand that my opinion of Bush would be rather limited as I was only 7 or 8 when he first went into office but there is something I am seeing more and more often when Bush has came in something which my parents never had to complain about during the times of Clinton and that is visa, It's a real problem these days especially for Sikhs who have to wear a Turban for religious purposes, but its not much less for Hindus which again for me going into the USA is a huge problem and the only reason I would like to go to USA is only for the oppurtunities. If I could find that number elsewhere, I would be going there first.

Also torture, even though they may claim they don't torture the signs are completely different. The freedom of speech thing is completely wrong and justice is not being served by the States.

Now in this election why I wanted the Democrats to win rather then the Republicans, 3 reasons 1) Healthcare, I am confident that they will do something about it, all though I am a firm believer in capitalism there are some things which should be free for all and one of them is healthcare and although he may not make it free I am confident that he will do something about it. 2) Economy, I might be 16 but I have a rather good understanding and I am sorry but the way he handled it is amazing, and I don't know how Obama will handle it but what I do know is that you can't handle it in a worse way then this. 3) Sarah Palin, now that alone could be a reason to not choose the Republican Party, Palin is an excellent Governer but not good enough for the Vice-President, she is the most ridiculous person who I have seen going for any president of any country, and there are only a few reasons why I think John McCain may have chosen her, and that is to gain some women supporters which I think was a HUGE mistake o his part

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 22):

I don't think you can compare GW Bush's ratings with anyone who ever came before, with the possible exception of Bill Clinton. The reason: The Internet. Never before has there been such a widespread forum which can be used to rile people people up about a president, whether with truth or garbage. My memories go back to the Nixon-Ford days, and I have never seen the level of gutter-vitriol we have now.

Internet should have very minimal effects, everybody has their own opinion and that opinion will always be kept until someone has a strong argument against each of their own arguments, and with that the internet should not play a role. What I am surprised is that even though Fox News only believes in the Republican Party and YET they got such a low rating this year
 
csavel
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:07 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
The measure of character is indeed your ability to look on your actions and be satisfied that you acted honorably and in the best way you possibly could at the time in relation to your responsibilities.



Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
I strongly disagree. With that logic, you can excuse any poor performance by simply saying "I was doing the best that I could".

Doing your best is only half the battle. The other half is acknowledging the times when your best isn't good enough, and learning from those experiences so that the next time around, the same mistakes won't be made.

Every time someone admiringly talks about how Bush is steadfast and never wavers I realize that his "steadfastness" is the single biggest reason that Bush is an idiot, a failure as a president, as a Christian, and as a person.

The truly great leaders will have huge egos, but if they are great, even the hugest ego will stop, say, "My idea was wrong. I failed." and change course. Not Dubya, Whether out of stubbornness or fear of looking wishy-washy, Bush will stick to his guns. Well I'm sorry in life that is just plain stupid. The greatest leaders and executives make mistakes, and the best ones will realize it, eat crow, take their lumps and move on. And not only that, the truly great ones will champion the very opposite ideas once shown to be better than their own. That is called maturity.

I don't have it, but I am not running the country. bush doesn't have it either but he is running the country. (Not for much longer, thank God!)
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
seansasLCY
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:43 am



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 19):
Very much so. If he could run again, he'd have my vote in a heartbeat

Thats worrying. This man has made your nation one of the most hated in the world. Under President Bush more people thought America was a threat to world peace than Iran or North Korea.

Bring on President-Elect Obama and a rejuvenated America.
 
MOBflyer
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:38 am



Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 29):
This man has made your nation one of the most hated in the world.

I doubt that assessment, but even if it were true, that's my problem because????

I am very proud of George Bush. He has tried his darndest to lead this country through some of its most troubling times. He has a strong moral compass and many don't like that.

Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 29):
Bring on President-Elect Obama and a rejuvenated America.

So in late January we will not be a most hated country? Sounds like a personal Bush hatred rather than America hatred, but anyway... Obama's gunna make everything better. None of us will ever have any problems... ever.

Lord help us!
 
UAXDXer
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:06 am

Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 30):
None of us will ever have any problems... ever.

That's right! Never again will I have to worry about that light bill, car payment, putting gas in said car, or paying rent. All because the Chosen One has been elected.

I can't wait for my life on Welfare during the Obama administration (Great Reality Show idea!). I just hope there is someone left with a job to pay for all the things that are MY RIGHT to have.

[Edited 2008-12-31 03:09:07]
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
seansasLCY
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:03 pm



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 30):
So in late January we will not be a most hated country? Sounds like a personal Bush hatred rather than America hatred, but anyway... Obama's gunna make everything better. None of us will ever have any problems... ever.

No not a personal Bush hatred. Obama has tried to be different and hopefully he will change the way America behaves in the World. America needs a leader who is not war hungry. A leader willing to talk to other nations and try to solve our problems before going in for "Shock and awe"

When 9/11 happened the World stood with America and we supported you, we supported your invasion of Afghanistan to find the perpetrators of such a brutal attack but when Bush tried to link the attack to a nation which had no links and then proceeded to invade it ruined that support. People were not happy with a attack on a nation which had no link. We were lied to by the Bush administration and that lost him his International support.

I know Obama won't solve all the problems or make things better, but he is a fresh start, someone with fresh ideas and most importantly someone willing to talk before shooting.
 
ANCsupercub
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:18 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
No, he will not apologize for the sake of satisfying transient partisan interests. Should any President?

I think it is truly amazing that though we have no clue what the lasting effects of his presidency will be (I sincerely hope that expansions Chenney helped garner for the executive branch will be reversed one day, we'll see...), we still think we know how this whole mess ought to be seen.

I know there will always be people who by nature have to contrarian to any authority, and people who have political interests on the other side of the spectrum. This is normal. But the amount of otherwise intelligent people who are jumping on the anti-Bush bandwagon just because is astounding. And a little disturbing. I'm not saying that Bush did a great job or anything, but it just seems like this whole meme of Bush and the republicans as evil and inept dictators of America bent on world domination has frankly degenerated into the McDonalds of modern political analysis.

The fact is that the last eight years have been a terribly complex period in our history. This whole thought of Bush as evil, Obama as our new and exalted saviour reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Apu is trying to explain the factors leading up to the American Civil war, and the test proctor says to him "Just say Slavery. You pass."

Have we really watered ourselves down so far that mindless knee-jerk responses like

   best post i have ever read on this site (not sure why it quotes dreadnought and not wn700driver)

[Edited 2008-12-31 04:23:03]
 
na
Posts: 9770
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:20 pm



Quoting Bmacleod (Thread starter):
Unlikely he will mention his failures

As the blockhead he is probably not, or just a small gesture.
If he recognizes reality and admits that the result of his politics, his deeds and his administration´s negligences have thrown his country, no, the whole world into the biggest crisis living mankind can remember, then there is a small rest of honesty left in this man, who has proven to be one of the worst presidents the US ever had. More honourable men have given themselves a bullet for less mistakes.
 
ANCsupercub
Posts: 98
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:32 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 34):
no, the whole world into the biggest crisis living mankind can remember

I would not put the entire blame on President Bush for the problems we are facing. He wasn't selling sub prime mortgages nor did he commit the terrorist attack against the US. I'm not saying that he has done a good job as president, but the situations we are in are not solely his administrations fault. My grandparent and plenty of the older generation can remember much bigger crisis' than this.
 
na
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:55 pm



Quoting ANCsupercub (Reply 35):
He wasn't selling sub prime mortgages

He let it happen, let the Wall Street sharks prey uncontrolled. Grave negligence is a serious fault of any ruler. What makes it even worse is that the same mistake was made before, in the 20s, in the same country. He started an unjust war, based on forgery. He reinvented torture, he, the oh-so-Christian president. And he is directly responsible for the highest debt any country has ever seen in man´s history. Name me one, just one US president with a worse record.

Quoting ANCsupercub (Reply 35):
My grandparent and plenty of the older generation can remember much bigger crisis' than this.

WWI, the big depression and WWII. Both World wars were not the fault of an US government at all. The opposite was the case. If there ever was an allmighty country that proved also high morale, it was the US in 1945. I dont know if you would like to add Vietnam to your big crisis list, but the results of that dirty war were not as grave as the inheritance of the Bush administration.
 
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Dreadnought
Posts: 10201
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:18 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 36):
He let it happen, let the Wall Street sharks prey uncontrolled.

He tried to reign them in years ago, as you might remember (or maybe you don't - you seem to have selective memory), but any efforts to regulate the mortgage industry were stopped by Senate democrats.

Quoting NA (Reply 36):
He reinvented torture



Jeez, dude, you guys really have a sense of perspective, equating a little waterboarding (which I experienced at a fraternity house) with actual torture which includes breaking bones, shoving spikes under your fingernails, or beheading with a kitchen knife.

Quoting NA (Reply 36):
And he is directly responsible for the highest debt any country has ever seen in man´s history.

Japan, Italy, Germany, Canada and France have higher debt levels (as of last year - 2008 numbers aren't yet available.)
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
Falcon84
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Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:06 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 9):
His "failures" if you want to call them that

What I expected: party before country.

Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 19):
Very much so. If he could run again, he'd have my vote in a heartbeat.

Good God, but that's scary. The man has led us from one disaster to another, and you'd vote for him-again? Based on WHAT? This great economy? The success of two wars? The health of the Middle Class?  Yeah sure
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
UAXDXer
Posts: 700
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:36 pm

RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:17 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 38):
Based on WHAT? This great economy? The success of two wars? The health of the Middle Class?

Yes, Yes, and Yes!
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
na
Posts: 9770
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:25 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
He tried to reign them in years ago, as you might remember (or maybe you don't - you seem to have selective memory), but any efforts to regulate the mortgage industry were stopped by Senate democrats.

Oh the evil democrats!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
a little waterboarding

... is so humane.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
Japan, Italy, Germany, Canada and France have higher debt levels (as of last year - 2008 numbers aren't yet available.)

Not quite right anymore, as the US is now ahead of France and Germany in this glorious list (summer 2008). I should have been more precise anyway, as I meant the absolute figures and even more so the skyrocketing frightening growth under the Bush administration (60% in 8 years, 500 billion each year!).

Just curious: can you answer my question if there ever was a single US president who has left behind a more desastrous legacy than GWB? No one could answer this question I asked already several times in different threads. The occasional answers Nixon or Carter are surely wrong.

In my list of GWBs stunning legacy I forgot that he managed to bring the US´ outside image to an alltime low and the war budget to an alltime high (maybe WWII excepted, but that was a totally different and much more justified matter).
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:30 pm

He will go down in the top 10 of all-time worst presidents, of that I'm certain. Of course, the rabid Republicans may try to do with him what they did with Reagan-create a myth about him that isn't near the truth, but which makes them feel better.

Note: I am NOT dumping Reagan in with Bush. Reagan was a good president, but I don't think he was a great president. He's given too much credit for the decline of the USSR, which is a process that happened over 70 years, not 8, and he's given way too much credit for a "good" economy that was built on mountains of debt. (and yet when someone tries to give Clinton credit for even a better economy, the rabid Republicans fail to give him the same credit).

Reagan was a good president. Bush has been an out and out terrible president.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:37 pm



Quoting Bmacleod (Thread starter):
Unlikely he will mention his failures; but should an interesting speech....

Will likely be a low-ratings event, too.

Quoting Bmacleod (Thread starter):
Will he admit his mistakes?

In the past, he's taken responsibility for some things done under his watch, but that's as far as he'll go if he admits as such in his last speech. Bush should thank his friends, mention any good things done under his watch and jet - 3 minute speech and cya.
Living the American Dream
 
wn700driver
Posts: 1475
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RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 pm



Quote:

Just curious: can you answer my question if there ever was a single US president who has left behind a more desastrous legacy than GWB?

Jackson, if you were a Native.

Lincoln, if you were from south of the Mason-Dixon line.

Wilson, if you lived in Western Europe between 1918 & 1946

FDR, if you were a taxpayer born after 1970.

JFK, if you lived in Vietnam or Cambodia from 1961 - 1990.

Johnson, see above.

Reagan, if you lived in the Eastern Bloc from 1980 - present.

Get some perspective, man. Times are rough, but people have had it worse. Much worse. Want to look at some historic German leaders?


Thanks ANC,

But I've noticed that issue too. I've actually been misquoted because of it, too, lol.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:19 pm



Quoting WN700Driver (Reply 43):
Lincoln, if you were from south of the Mason-Dixon line.

Which is terribly wrong-headed in the South. Yes, Lincoln prosecuted the war to its fullest, but the South was grieviously damaged when Lincoln was assassinated. The Reconstruction would have been much more magnanamous for the South had Lincoln lived. His death was a great tragedy for the South.

Quoting WN700Driver (Reply 43):
FDR, if you were a taxpayer born after 1970.

Poppycock. FDR isn't responsible for making the decisions after his death. That was the result of president's and congresses after he died. The fault does not lie with FDR.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
wn700driver
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 10:55 pm

RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:33 pm

Falcon,

I know about Lincoln. But if you spend anytime in the American South, you'll be surprised to see how bitter people still are about that. It probably would have been better had the man not been assassinated, true, but my point was that legacy depends as much on your point of view as it does on facts.

As FDR, oh yes he is. Implementing the programs that would later evolve into Social Security was something he knew couldn't be easily stopped. Letting him off the hook for that would be like excusing the designers of the Hindenburg for that disaster just because they weren't there when it burnt up. That's the whole point of Legacy. What comes after your actions, because of your actions.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
na
Posts: 9770
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:35 pm

Wow, quite a list. That makes it even more apparent how bad GWB really is/was, for his own people AND for the rest of world. Of cause there were presidents who made this or that grave mistake. No one achieved a record like GWB though, not even near.

Quoting WN700Driver (Reply 43):
Jackson, if you were a Native.

For small minority then.

Quoting WN700Driver (Reply 43):
Lincoln, if you were from south of the Mason-Dixon line.

If you were a slave-owner, "south of the Mason-Dixon line" is an euphemism.
So Lincoln was bad for the US citizens with the lowest morale. So what.
What he really achieved makes him one of the best US presidents ever.

Quoting WN700Driver (Reply 43):
people have had it worse. Much worse.

People yes, worldwide, as in the past everyone didnt enjoy the standard of the world today.
You forget to see all this in comparison what was inherited and the status before someone came to power. GWB came to power when everything was running well. He ruined almost all fields he plowed.

Quoting WN700Driver (Reply 43):
Want to look at some historic German leaders?

No, thanks, I know enough of them. And its thankfully a long time ago.

I did not ask for the worst leader worldwide in all time, I was asking after the worst US president. Your list convinces me more that this man is GWB.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:48 pm



Quoting WN700Driver (Reply 45):
I know about Lincoln. But if you spend anytime in the American South, you'll be surprised to see how bitter people still are about that. It probably would have been better had the man not been assassinated, true, but my point was that legacy depends as much on your point of view as it does on facts.

Point taken. It also shows that your point of view can be skewed in some ways as well. If people really took the time to study the man, I think you'll find what I said is true.

A good read is "Team of Rivals" by Doris Kearns Goodwin. What struck me the most about the man, in reading this, was his magnamity to former enemies. That would have served the South well after the war.

Quoting WN700Driver (Reply 45):
As FDR, oh yes he is. Implementing the programs that would later evolve into Social Security was something he knew couldn't be easily stopped.

There I think you're mistaken. As you said, it EVOLVED. It was not the intention of FDR that any of that remain permanent. They were deseperate measures of a desperate time. He was willing to do anything to get the nation out of Depression. But in my view, their permanence isn't the fault of FDR, but of proceeding presidents' and congresses, who made them permanent fixtures.

I think, had you gone through the Great Depression your view-and mine-might be different. But they were meant to do one thing-save the nation from total collapse. FDR could not have forseen what his initiatives would become after he died.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
wn700driver
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 10:55 pm

RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:52 pm



Quote:
"Jackson, if you were a Native."

For small minority then.

Careful there. There are a lot of people here who were directly affected by that. And yes, it is a huge legacy. The entire american mid and southwests are hugely different from what they would have been otherwise. Don't make the mistake of assuming that because something was long ago, it doesn't matter now, or only matters to a few. I've read your posts in other threads and I know you're smarter than to fall for that level of intellectual laziness.

Quote:

If you were a slave-owner, "south of the Mason-Dixon line" is an euphemism.
So Lincoln was bad for the US citizens with the lowest morale. So what.
What he really achieved makes him one of the best US presidents ever

Lowest morale or lowest value? Keep in mind, slavery was as much the reason for the american civil war as WMDs were for Iraq. Slave owners accounted for less than 1% of the Dixies. And almost none of those who did the fighting and the dieing. You might want to study the Reconstruction some time. Look up the terms Carpet Bagging and Freeman's Sharecropping while you're at it.
These are both legacy issues.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
captaink
Posts: 4010
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Bush's Farewell Address

Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:13 pm



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 19):
Very much so. If he could run again, he'd have my vote in a heartbeat.



Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 39):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 38):
Based on WHAT? This great economy? The success of two wars? The health of the Middle Class?

Yes, Yes, and Yes!

Sadly some Americans think like that. It is just plain stupid. You vote Bush in a heartbeat based on what? The guy wasn't a good president, there is no way around that. Yes many think Obama is the saviour to all problems in America today, that too is foolish.

Will Obama be a good president taking into consideration the great mess he has inherited well that is left to be seen. But no one can warrant Bush being a good president I'm sorry. Doing so is just trying make yourself a fool. Our choices were McCain and Obama. The majority voted for Obama, all we need to hope for is that he is better than Bush, and personally speaking, that doesn't seem to be a high marker.

Now if McCain won, would you have been happy? Then it is just an Obama or Democratic hatred. If you don't like McCain either then I guess you really do love Bush. Scary...
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