sbworcs
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The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:59 pm

The Pope has said that saving humanity from Homosexual behaviour is as important as saving the environment!

Just where is who I choose to sleep with gonig to bring about the destruction of the human race?
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OA260
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:02 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7797269.stm

The Pope should be charged with inciting hate IMHO. I cant stand him , he is a total evil man. He does not represent my God thats for sure.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:14 pm

Just another reason why I'm far from a practicing Catholic anymore. I grew increasingly tired of all the hate mongering.
 
Mir
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:34 pm



Quoting Sbworcs (Thread starter):
The Pope has said that saving humanity from Homosexual behaviour is as important as saving the environment!

Oy vey. You don't have to like them, you don't have to accept their marriages, but to say that say that the world needs protecting from gays like it does protection from greenhouse gases shows a very dim understanding of both gays and greenhouse gases. The stupidity continues.  sigh 

-Mir
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steman
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:35 pm

I hate him and the Church so much...
one of the reasons for which I moved away from Rome to come to a more advanced and civilized Country!

Stefano
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:41 pm

Pope Benedict should have refrained from saying such things in public.
Even if he thinks it, he should have kept it for himself.
This is certainly not going to give him a good image.
There must be gay priests in the Roman Catholic church.
I wonder what he thinks of them?
I guess the head of the Islamic branches probably think the same.
Also the heads of other Christian churches, but at least they don't speak out.
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sr117
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:54 pm

I found this snippet from the cnn.com article particularly interesting:

"The pope had no intention to offend or attack transgendered" people, Father Federico Lombari said Tuesday. "What the pope meant to say was that in God's eyes, a person is born either man or woman. And to deny this fundamental concept, central to Catholic teaching, is to create confusion.

I wonder what the church's official position on hermaphrodites is? Bonafide dual-junk hermaphrodites I mean ! How does that fit into Benedict's clear cut black and white world?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:58 pm



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 2):
Just another reason why I'm far from a practicing Catholic anymore. I grew increasingly tired of all the hate mongering.

Can't wait to go to Catholic mass with my family on Christmas.  Yeah sure Makes my blood boil.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
luv2fly
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:02 pm

It is funny all religions always tout tolerance, though like my Mom always said, "The fish stinks from the head down"
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Charles79
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:08 pm

Well what did we expect, for him to come out and say that openly gays are now welcomed in church and that priests will start offering gay marriages? He's entitled to his opinion, and as long as his opinion doesn't translate into law or discrimination and his organization is privately funded and has no ties to government then he can say whatever he wants.

I wonder how many heterosexuals are being driven from the church though. Last I heard the catholic church wasn't exaclty healthy financially; with these types of comments not only do you drive away gays and lesbians but also their straight friends and supporters. Bet they don't think about that when they choose to make these backwards statements.
 
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mbmbos
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:18 pm



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 9):
Last I heard the catholic church wasn't exaclty healthy financially;

I agree. I think of the Catholic church as the General Motors of the religious world. They are in a slow death spiral from which they will not recover - at least in the form we presently know.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
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Wolverine
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:38 pm

What I really can't understand , is why the Catholic church needs a pope at all, and why they always take these old men, that want's to turn the world back to middleage.
Why not take a young man? A guy who is open to homosexuality and all the other things, this old Pitbull is against?
Face your fears, live your dreams! (No Fear)
 
RussianJet
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:47 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
The Pope should be charged with inciting hate IMHO

Why? He has expressed his views on the matter and states that he considers such behaviour a sin. I have read many comments today on news sites talking about how he is encouraging 'gay bashing' and even, quote, 'murder' of homosexuals. That is offensive rubbish, and is a hysterical conclusion to jump to which only serves to undermine the cause of equality, tolerance and respect for all. Tolerance is perhaps the key word here - you don't have to agree with someone in order to respect them and understand that they may well just carry on doing whatever it is you are against. Nonetheless, he has a right to his view just as others have a right to hold an opposite one.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
he is a total evil man

That's pretty extreme and not really fair. Why do you think he is 'totally' evil? What, he does no good at all whatsoever and spends his whole time cooking up evil plans for others? That's not reality, regardless of whether you agree with him or not.

Quoting Steman (Reply 4):
I hate him and the Church so much...

Yes, and there you have it - no respect, tolerance or acceptance of the fact that he is entitled to his view and believes he has sound theological reasons for it. Comments like that show the whole hypocrisy of this situation. Others here have referred to 'hate-mongering' and the like. Well, what is that if it's not hate-mongering? Others might say, using logic found in this thread, that if you hold such a view then maybe you should keep it to yourself. On the other hand, you have no obligation to like him or agree with what he says, and you have the right to express your view just as he does his.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 5):
Pope Benedict should have refrained from saying such things in public.

Given that he sees it as an important religious issue, and he is the leader of a huge worldwide church, where else should he offer guidance and thought to believers? Again, if you don't agree then you don't have to pay one single bit of attentioni to what he says. That is entirely your perogative.

The level of bigotry and intolerance displayed in some posts so far in this thread is shocking, and is representative of precisely the kind of thing that it being criticised in the first place.

Is it ok to encourage 'Christian bashing' or to claim that when a gay rights leader such as the appalling Peter Tatchell openly speaks out with venom about various churches and by extension their followers, that he is therefore in fact inciting people to murder them? The Pope is not, and should not be obliged to consider homosexuality to be the ideal or even desirable when the theology he follows considers it to be a terrible sin. Agree with him or not, entirely your choice.

I am not a Catholic, and there is much that I disagree with in the Catholic church, but I am growing tired of seeing certain rights causes take precedence over the rights of others to beliefs and religious freedom. It is, in a nutshell, gross hypocrisy and deserves to be heavily criticised for that reason.

By all means discuss whether you agree with what he said or not, and why. However, can we leave out the hatred and anti-religious bigotry?

[Edited 2008-12-23 11:56:41]
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RussianJet
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:50 pm



Quoting Wolverine (Reply 11):
What I really can't understand , is why the Catholic church needs a pope at all

Perhaps because the church considers him to be the direct successor of St. Peter and the very heart of their religion?
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PSA53
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:09 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 12):
he is a total evil man

That's pretty extreme and not really fair.

I agree.I'm a catholic.And I don't hate anyone and was taught to me.

Do I hate Obama?No.His not my first choice.But he is now my president elect and I hope he will be recorded as one the US finest presidents.Do I hate Barney Frank?No.

But terms used like calling Bush,Hitler on this very website is very questionable..

I once used the term overkill to discribe and decided,and that time, reverse that thought.Now I'm not so sure.
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na
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:11 pm

Its sad that this Pope, who is a very intelligent man and not a bad pope otherwise, once in a while makes such mistakes. He always has been quite a harsh cleric, but became milder with his skyhigh position. That comparison though is indeed beyond discussion, just stupid.

Quoting Wolverine (Reply 11):
why the Catholic church needs a pope at all

Its not a matter of why. Its an appointment as old as Christianity and cannot be abolished like a king or presidents seat.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:17 pm

Quoting Wolverine (Reply 11):
Why not take a young man?

For a simple reason. As in any other there are all kinds of power games and behind the scenes deals involved in the election of the pope.
Also, don't forget that the pope is chosen by its peers, many of them being hopefuls they will get at least a theoretical chance "next time". It takes a while to climb up the church hierarchy so one is usually 60+ years old before he even gets a chance to elect or be elected. Therefore the last thing archbishops/cardinals want to happen is to have the boss stuck in the office for too long (as it happened with John Paul II who held the office for 27 years) because they would be most likely dead next time there is a pope being elected.

[Edited 2008-12-23 12:25:19]
 
RussianJet
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:19 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 15):
makes such mistakes

They are mistakes in your opinion, and you are of course entitled to that view. In his, they are simply what is necessary fo fulfil his role as leader of the Catholic Church, doing exactly what he should be there to do in that position.
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Mir
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:20 pm



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 9):
Well what did we expect, for him to come out and say that openly gays are now welcomed in church and that priests will start offering gay marriages?

Of course not. If he had said "The Catholic Church does not believe that homosexuality is abiding by the teachings of Christ, and we do not recognize homosexual marriages" or even "we believe that homosexuality is sinful", I would have no problem with it. Everyone knows that the Catholic Church has that position, and while I may not agree with it, I understand why they have it.

But to say that fighting against homosexuality is the same as fighting for the environment?  no 

-Mir
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:23 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 16):
For a simple reason. As in any other there are all kinds of power games and behind the scenes deals involved in the election of the pope.

And also because there is no realistic chance of a 'young man' advancing to become a Bishop, Archbishop, Cardinal and so on, quickly enough to make it to be pope and still be young. It is true however that this pope is unusually old.
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:32 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 19):
It is true however that this pope is unusually old.

Insiders claim it is the fallout of the previous 27-years long papacy, which many of those with ambitions to get a shot at the office at one point in the future found too long.
One of Ratzinger's assets which played in his favor was the realistic chance of him dying soon enough. A bit cynical yet very human.
 
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LTU932
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:32 pm

The statements made by Mr Ratzinger shows how retrograde the Roman Catholic Church actually is. Some people could take it, as if Mr Ratzinger is asking for a holy war against all homosexuals, regardless of whether they're open, in the closet, or be suspected of homosexuality.

You have to remember, Joseph Alois Ratzinger used to be the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Congregatio pro Doctrina Fidei), which is what used to be called the Holy Inquisition. The Holy Inquisition was responsible for burning women, who were said to be witches, burning people who were accused of heresy, etc. And even today, going by the name Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, they're still the same inquisition that in the past, has been responsible for many crimes.
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searpqx
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:33 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 12):
I have read many comments today on news sites talking about how he is encouraging 'gay bashing' and even, quote, 'murder' of homosexuals. That is offensive rubbish, and is a hysterical conclusion to jump to which only serves to undermine the cause of equality, tolerance and respect for all.

No, its pretty much documented fact. Anytime a highly visible leader makes a comments similar to this, there is a documented spike in violence towards the target audience. No, the Pope is not urging or condoning violence towards gays, but there are a great many people who take these words as tacit approval to act out their own aggression. Making such statements does in fact put him on par with the Pat Robertsons and James Dobsons of the world, who are but one step away from openly inciting violence.

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 9):
Well what did we expect, for him to come out and say that openly gays are now welcomed in church and that priests will start offering gay marriages?

Of course not. If he had said "The Catholic Church does not believe that homosexuality is abiding by the teachings of Christ, and we do not recognize homosexual marriages" or even "we believe that homosexuality is sinful", I would have no problem with it. Everyone knows that the Catholic Church has that position, and while I may not agree with it, I understand why they have it.

 checkmark I can respect differences of opinion, I can't respect men who make these types of statements.
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RussianJet
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:37 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):
Some people could take it, as if Mr Ratzinger is asking for a holy war against all homosexuals, regardless of whether they're open, in the closet, or be suspected of homosexuality.

How could they, when he has not said or indicated anything of the sort? I can understand why people may not agree with what he has said, and I can understand why they may feel very strongly about the subject. What is the point of exaggerating by a factor of 50? It detracts from any serious argument you may care to make in criticism of the views he actually expressed. Again, by this logic, some on this board would in fact then be encouraging others to go around murdering Catholics. However, clearly nobody has said that so why apply the same ridiculous process to the Pope's words?
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LTU932
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:00 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 23):
How could they, when he has not said or indicated anything of the sort? I can understand why people may not agree with what he has said, and I can understand why they may feel very strongly about the subject.

The point is that some people may, not everyone. It's called fanaticism, and fanatics are well known to take things out of context, not only in Christianity and in Islam, but also in other religions (remember the FLDS in the US?).
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
RussianJet
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:23 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 24):
The point is that some people may, not everyone. It's called fanaticism, and fanatics are well known to take things out of context, not only in Christianity and in Islam, but also in other religions (remember the FLDS in the US?).

Indeed, and also to further causes such as Gay rights, gender 'equality' and animal rights, for example.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 22):
No, its pretty much documented fact

'Pretty much'? Not really then.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 22):
but there are a great many people who take these words as tacit approval to act out their own aggression.

I would say that people so ready to act violently towards others have problems that go way beyond listening too intently to the Pope, and if this was the one thing they took action about that the Pope says then they are not very good Catholics are they? Still, because a man makes a statement you disagree with it apparently doesn't matter that he spends most of the time teaching love and godliness. The Pope is in no way more responsible for people going out and bashing gays than people here 'encouraging' others to go about attacking Christians. As you have correctly said, he did not say anything of the sort to imply or indicate any violent action is desirable, in fact he would say the exact opposite. People watch too much tv as well, sometimes it carries extremely questionable moral positions. Shall we ban it? Or, shall we just get over it and accept that people like and accept different things?
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sbworcs
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:50 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 12):
What, he does no good at all whatsoever and spends his whole time cooking up evil plans for others?

There are several things preached by the Catholic church that I would descibe as being of no good - the contraception issue, firm stance on abortion, dying children into limbo if they have not been baptised but all these are for other topics.

My main problem is that i can understand people having a difference of opinion but to state that the rest of the world needs protecting from me is offensive. And to talk about in the same sentence as a subject such as global warming which are told is going to kill the world gives the message that homosexuals are killing the world and should be "dealt" with to save the planet - again I can tolerate others opinions but NOT when they insinuate that I am a threat to humanity because I happened to be born gay!
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RussianJet
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:39 pm



Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 26):
There are several things preached by the Catholic church that I would descibe as being of no good - the contraception issue

I would also agree.

Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 26):
My main problem is that i can understand people having a difference of opinion but to state that the rest of the world needs protecting from me is offensive

I can understand that, and please understand I am not necessarily trying to justify or support his comments. However, it is not fair for anyone to characterise the entire church as only bad and ignore a multiplicity of good things that they also do. I guess what really bugs me is that instantly people suddenly cry 'hate' and 'murder' when he has not advocated anything of the sort, and also that some people react with such hatred and prejudice to what he has said when this is the very essence of what they are claiming to be offended by in the first place.

Just out of interest, whilst I can fully understand your position on how the church views you, what do you make of the wider issue of gay rights vs. religious rights and freedom, particularly in the workplace and so on? It does strike me that there is currently not a level playing field here, and that certain rights can be actively promoted over others.

Equality and diversity objectives are not necessarily incompatible with the holding of religious beliefs, no matter how strongly issues may go against people's principles or values. When all is said and done, if someone at work is not prepared to treat people with respect or not discriminate then they can either go look for another job or get their asses fired. Similarly, if for example a gay employee refused to work with a muslim colleague because he knew that person disapproved of his sexuality, then that too would be entirely unacceptable and worthy of punishment.

A Norfolk police officer was sacked a while ago for expressing anti-homosexual views in response to being required to participate in events and wear symbols on his uniform which he believed were in direct support of homosexuality. Fatally, he made the error of making referrals to homosexuality as a malign influence in a religious context in writing. This was subsequently produced against him to help decide his fate. It would seem that this foolish individual should have known better than to bring his religious views into the workplace and not simply cooperate in advancing the goals of the organisation in relation to equality and diversity awareness. However, it doesn't seem sensible to me to just sack someone for such mistakes or stupidity.

Primarily, I don't see what this achieves other than probably creating yet more resentment, intolerance and ill-feeling. Perhaps some kind of retraining and proper direct management to ensure the rectifying of his ways at work would have been desirable, as at least then one is actually dealing with the individual and the problem, and not merely doing nothing to further the cause of changing attitudes for the better by getting rid of him. I understand that it sends a message that such things won't be tolerated, and that's fine. Nonetheless, some other form of strong disciplinary measures would surely also have the desired effect, particularly when people witness the fact that he was made to revise his behaviour and modify his professional actions accordingly. If he would not cooperate with such measures or they did nothing to improve the situation, I would think sacking to be entirely appropriate and the only recourse available.

Have you encountered discrimination in the workplace yourself? How was it dealt with? Most of all, I think it is important to reduce the amount of hate going around in a particular situation or setting, and not encourage reprisory, violent, offensive or otherwise ill-judged reactions. Taking the moral high ground is important in matters like these, as is acting with dignity, calm and reason. Love thine enemy - empathise and feel sorry for such sad individuals who clearly have problems if they cannot treat everyone fairly.

Having said all that, I consider it to be just as important to not be seen to be actively promoting, providing for or respecting one belief or cause unequally over another. To do so removes the impartiality required in order to achieve true equal treatment of all employees in a professional setting. I am not necessarily saying that this was the case here, rather just stating some basic principles that I believe would make all of our lives much easier and fairer for all. Religion should be kept out of work settings, as it does nothing to further the efficiency or profitability of an organisation or business (yes, unless that business or organisation is a religious one).

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solnabo
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:57 pm

The Pope is a narrowminded old fart if u ask me. * pardon my french*

I´m glad to be an atheist and humanist

Just look at "Die Rottweiler", long skirt and big hat a lá Ascot

Just pathetic drivel about gay people from the über dragqueen

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stasisLAX
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:09 pm



Quoting Solnabo (Reply 28):
Just pathetic drivel about gay people from the über dragqueen

Best. Remark. In. This. Thread.

The Catholic Church is no longer relevant in the modern world. As the largest landowner in the world, perhaps the Pope would consider selling off some of the Church's prime real estate to help support social services programs in the developing world or fund HIV/AIDS research to help end the AIDS plague in Africa? It will never happen, of course.

Pathetic, indeed.
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RussianJet
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:10 pm



Quoting Solnabo (Reply 28):
Just look at "Die Rottweiler", long skirt and big hat a lá Ascot

Just pathetic drivel about gay people from the über dragqueen

See, was that really necessary? Is there no chance that you could take a moral stand and react with some dignity and calm instead of resorting to plain insults to somehow back up your views? If you are having any disagreement with anyone anywhere, the second you start resorting to insults or swearing instead of maintaining your argument through considered reason and logic, then you lose. You are obviously strongly against what he has said. Why in that case do you want to get down in the gutter with him and show yourself to be little better?

Here's the deal - if you can react rationally and constructively to this whole thing then I will consider you to be much better than the Pope, OK?  Smile
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pawsleykat
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:18 pm

That is one of the dumbest things i have ever heard in all my life. Oh my god, gays are polluting the environment and killing the planet. What a stupid, narrowminded and generally nasty thing to say.

Yet another reason why I don't believe in God, the people that are meant to be his earthly representatives say things like this. My God certainly doesn't hate gays.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 5):
There must be gay priests in the Roman Catholic church

There are.
I don't know if it still happens on such a wide scale, but Roman Catholic priests used to abuse children, mostly boys, sexually. It's a horrible thing to do and the Pope should be targetting people like this first before he targets homosexuals.

JG  Yeah sure
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RussianJet
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:35 pm



Quoting Pawsleykat (Reply 31):
gays are polluting the environment

Mate, not literally. Rather, he meant more in moral and spiritual terms.
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:35 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
If you are having any disagreement with anyone anywhere, the second you start resorting to insults or swearing instead of maintaining your argument through considered reason and logic, then you lose.

er, didn't the pope insult homosexuals saying that they are a danger to humanity? I didn't see any reason or logic in it. Are the homosexuals stealing/raping/killing/terrorizing heterosexuals? why are they danger to humanity? Just because it doesn't fit into their religion? So, would you agree if muslims tomorrow said that jews were a danger to humanity just because it didn't fit into their religion?
 
sr117
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:38 pm

I think what irks a lot of people is that the Catholic Church through Benedict is making no attempt at understanding the problems of society today.

I shall repeat the snippet mentioned in the cnn article about this:

"The pope had no intention to offend or attack transgendered" people, Father Federico Lombari said Tuesday. "What the pope meant to say was that in God's eyes, a person is born either man or woman. And to deny this fundamental concept, central to Catholic teaching, is to create confusion.

Therein lies the problem, they are blind to the -fact- that sometimes things are not as clear cut as they wish them to be. They condemn such sensitivity to the many hues of creation as "moral relativism".

I found a very interesting article on the Pope's view on moral relativism: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Chri...005/04/What-Is-Relativism.aspx?p=1

At the end of the day it is the Pope's choice where he wants to take the Catholic church, but as it stands, it is clearly not attempting to satisfy the spiritual needs of people through actual reasoning, understanding or love, it is merely thumping to old dogma and blind faith. That is unlikely to bring new sheep to the flock and only succeeds in pissing people off as this thread is clearly showing.
 
RussianJet
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:04 am



Quoting SR117 (Reply 34):
They condemn such sensitivity to the many hues of creation as "moral relativism".

Because the creation is an absolute in that religion, and not something that any follower, even the Pope, can question or alter. It was as written, and that's the end of it - there will be and can never be any 'attempt' to understand or entertain other versions of things. If they did not have faith in this, they would not be Christian in the first place.

Furthermore, although we all know that nature isn't necessarily black or white, and that occasionally medical defects and deformities occur, that is no reason to suggest that the church should alter its views on gender or homosexuality. I suppose that in such cases God will decide how best to proceed and the answers will become clear to those involved, allowing them to treat the situation as best they can to do the best for the individual concerned.

We are all sinners - every last one of us. But, Jesus loves a sinner and teaches love and compassion for all. I suspect that the Pope will be deeply troubled by the fact that he does not have all the answers to really change society for the better, and he will no doubt confess that sin when he makes confession. Likewise, he will know that he cannot please everyone and despite being 'infallible' he will understand there are limits to his abilities to influence or change people. Far from advocating violent consequences for those he considers to be sinners, his response will be to state his views and pray for those who sin. All of us.

Don't get me wrong, I consider the Pope to be a heretic and do not agree with him or the Catholic Church in the wider sense. However, I cannot honestly say that he is only bad or that he does not try and teach some very valid and valuable lessons in love and compassion. If you feel strongly about what he has said, write to the Vatican. However, don't bother writing if you are just going to insult him or express hatred. I have a feeling that the only consequence might be that he would pray for you, and you wouldn't want that now. Seriously, I think we should try and approach the issues involved here in as constructive a way as possible, and engage fully with those with whom we share fundamental disagreements, to encourage dialogue and increase understanding on all sides.
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johnboy
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:50 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 35):
We are all sinners - every last one of us. But, Jesus loves a sinner and teaches love and compassion for all.

You lost me right there.
 
pawsleykat
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:27 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 33):
Mate, not literally. Rather, he meant more in moral and spiritual terms

I was being sarcastic. I don't think gay people - being one myself - are immoral or are doing wrong spiritually. The pope should know that there are worse people out there. Like kiddy fiddlers (again, all he has to do is look inside the church), murderers etc.

It's not exactly like homosexuals are destroying the world is it?

JG  Yeah sure
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jetmech
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:35 am

Quoting Sbworcs (Thread starter):
The Pope has said that saving humanity from Homosexual behaviour is as important as saving the environment!

Strangely enough, it could be argued that the environment is in such a perilous state in no small part due to overpopulation of the planet. Perhaps more same sex couples having less children wouldn't be such a bad thing    .

Regards, JetMech

[Edited 2008-12-23 17:38:23]
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mariner
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:48 am

Quoting Sbworcs (Thread starter):
Just where is who I choose to sleep with gonig to bring about the destruction of the human race?

If you're not a Catholic, I don't think it applies to you. I could be wrong, but I am not a Catholic (or a Christian) and it surely doesn't apply to me.

But if that is what the church believes (or Benedict believes the church should believe) then that is what the Pope must say.

Everyone must decide for themselves the relevance of it, and, in my case, the relevance is zero.

When I was a teenager, like a lot of young men I was confuwed about my place in the world. For a time, I considered releigion and took Catholic instruction.

But the instructing priest told me that I was a sinner damned to hell, so I stopped being interested in anything he had to say.

Nothing, it seems, has changed.

mariner

[Edited 2008-12-23 17:49:21]
aeternum nauta
 
RussianJet
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:51 am



Quoting Johnboy (Reply 36):
You lost me right there.

Ha ha, no big surprise.  Wink
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greggarious
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:57 am



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Can't wait to go to Catholic mass with my family on Christmas.   Makes my blood boil.

Ugh, that's the worst part of coming home for breaks... having to go to Mass in order to appease my parents and avoid a conflict...
 
RussianJet
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:10 am



Quoting Greggarious (Reply 41):
having to go to Mass in order to appease my parents and avoid a conflict...

If you really don't want to and disagree with it so strongly, just take the conflict and be done with it. Nobody should simply 'go through the motions' with Church just to please others.
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SkyyKat
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:14 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
he is a total evil man.

Rattttzinger......Great choice! Big grin Sounds like a good German Brew though....

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 9):
He's entitled to his opinion,

Not entitled to spread it to the flock that follow him blindly.


As agnostic as I am, I miss the last guy... That was a great Pope. The best Pope that there ever was.
 
RussianJet
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:18 am



Quoting SkyyKat (Reply 43):
Not entitled to spread it to the flock that follow him blindly.

How is he not? He is their leader - nobody is forced to follow him blindly, and he is doing nothing more than reinforcing existing beliefs in the Church. This is precisely what he should be doing as Pope. Again, whether you choose to follow that religion or what relevance and value you place upon it is entirely your decision.
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dxing
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:26 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
The Pope should be charged with inciting hate IMHO. I cant stand him , he is a total evil man. He does not represent my God thats for sure.



Quoting Steman (Reply 4):
I hate him and the Church so much...
one of the reasons for which I moved away from Rome to come to a more advanced and civilized Country!

Those (the gay community) who are most vocal about touting tolerance at all costs can be some of the most intolerant of all.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 9):
Well what did we expect, for him to come out and say that openly gays are now welcomed in church and that priests will start offering gay marriages? He's entitled to his opinion, and as long as his opinion doesn't translate into law or discrimination and his organization is privately funded and has no ties to government then he can say whatever he wants.

Well said.

Quoting SR117 (Reply 34):
At the end of the day it is the Pope's choice where he wants to take the Catholic church, but as it stands, it is clearly not attempting to satisfy the spiritual needs of people through actual reasoning, understanding or love, it is merely thumping to old dogma and blind faith. That is unlikely to bring new sheep to the flock and only succeeds in pissing people off as this thread is clearly showing.

What people, the gays? BTW the church is a private orginization, it's free to make the rules as it wishes just as you are free not to belong to that particular church. Why does the gay community continue to expect the church to change to their way of thinking when they make up such a tiny minority within the church? As to bringing new sheep to the flock, that does not appear to be their problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church#Membership

Church membership in 2007 was 1.131 billion people;[176] an increase over the 1950 figure of 437 million[177] and the 1970 figure of 654 million.[178] The Catholic population increase of 139% outpaced the world population increase of 117% from 1950-2000.[177] It is the largest Christian church, and encompasses over half of all Christians, one sixth of the world's population, the largest organized body of any world religion.[7][179]
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RussianJet
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:37 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 45):
Those (the gay community) who are most vocal about touting tolerance at all costs can be some of the most intolerant of all.

 checkmark  Sure can be.

The whole point of following a particular religious faith is that you adhere to its teachings and follow its guiding principles. You do not simply get to pick and choose which parts of it to modify purely based on your own personal needs or desires at the time. You follow it (if you so choose) - not the other way round. It is not a convenience to be used as you wish, it is an observance and is not necessarily supposed to be easy.
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Elite
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:41 am

I am not a Catholic, but I believe that people should respect the Pope... whether or not he agrees with your views or not. The Pope is still an important figure to millions of people, and that is their religion, and we should respect it none the less.
 
RussianJet
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:06 am



Quoting Elite (Reply 47):
The Pope is still an important figure to millions of people

Well over a billion. That's a very big proportion of the entire world's population. It was also significant to see the recent results of an attempt at the UN to make a declaration about homosexuality. More than half of all member states refused to sign, saying that it was for their countries to decide whether they wish to treat it as a crime, support it, or whatever. That view cannot be ignored, and I think I am right in believing that the USA also would not sign.

Whether we like it or not, a very large number of people hold views against homosexuality, to varying degrees. Fortunately they are all entitled to that opinion, but then if someone from a stricly conservative country comes to my country then if they in any way attack or persecute homosexuals they are going to be in big trouble with the law, and deservedly so. If I had sex with my girlfriend before marriage in some countries then that would be considered a serious crime, regardless of my beliefs on the subject or how morally outrageous I considered the criminalising of such behaviour.

To some extent this is just the way it is - I would not go to that country expecting to be or do everything I am at home, and it is my responsibility to find out what standards of behaviour to respect there and what laws to be careful to obey. I do not have to agree with it, and I do not have to like it, and I can choose whether or not I wish to go to that place.

I cannot understand people like Peter Tatchell going to places like Moscow and deliberately stirring up trouble during gay rights demonstrations. He then complains of bad treatment at the hands of the police and others. You know the score, and no matter how dire the situation there may be in respect of gay rights, you know for certain that you are going to cause trouble and suffer the consequences for going into the hornet's nest. On one hand it appears to speak volumes about the level of commitment to the cause and the depth of feeling involved. On the other hand, is it really not just going and asking for a pasting? It's deliberately provocative and can only lead to bad things.
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Alias1024
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RE: The Pope And Another Anti Gay Remark

Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:13 am



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 9):
Well what did we expect, for him to come out and say that openly gays are now welcomed in church and that priests will start offering gay marriages? He's entitled to his opinion, and as long as his opinion doesn't translate into law or discrimination and his organization is privately funded and has no ties to government then he can say whatever he wants.

 checkmark 
I disagree with the Pope's and the Catholic Church's views on many subjects, including homosexuality, but don't expect him to change his religious beliefs because I don't like them. I think the remarks were insensitive, but they were certainly in line with Catholic doctrine.


Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
I cant stand him , he is a total evil man.

If he is total evil, then am I assume that you disagree with his vehement opposition to the death penalty?
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