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johns624
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 2:05 am



Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 49):
The problem in the US is it is to easy to buy guns in some places.

Not really. Everyone buying a gun from a dealer has to go through the FBI NICS background check unless their state police has their own system in place.
One thing that I find amusing is so many peoples' reliance on the police. If they only knew how lousy of a shot most police are. The average active civilian shooter is more proficient than most police officers. I work at a range that rents range time to several Federal and local LE organizations for their qualifications. Some of them are scary. I would think that it's even worse in countries without a firearms heritage. I remember getting in a shipment of 20 year old German police handguns; they had plenty of surface wear from holsters but appeared to have hardly been shot.
 
baroque
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 2:21 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
The statistics on gun murders and police shootings (pages 25 and 26 of the report) are interesting, though - they say that in states with a high number of exported guns, the gun murder rates and the police shooting rates are higher. One assumes that gun laws are more lax in these states, since that's what creates the export market in the first place.

You would think that the chart on p26 alone would cause a few blushes among those cast aspersions at the patrimony of the information in the thread starter. But I will not hold breath waiting for the flood of "Oh I see, there really IS a problem"s.

Quoting Signol (Reply 18):
Quoting Johns624 (Reply 13):
Great Britain's tough gun laws never seemed to stop the IRA, did they?

The hint there is the letter "I" - as in Irish, so not British, so our gun laws don't come into it.

Another hint, where did the IRA source their armalite rifles and similar weapons? You generally cannot buy them in the soon to be closed UK Woolies!!!
 
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keesje
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:01 am

I do not believe only criminals kill and they own illegal guns not from USA and haven't seen any statistics who endorse that theory, not even on the NRA.com.

What I see is news like this : angry folks havings available high tech powerfull attarctive equipment enabling them to kill quick. When you only have a knife that is harder.

I have never seen a privatly owned semi automatic wepon and nobody who owns one or wants to own one.

That makes a difference.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...at_party/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed5

This Santa was an aerospace engineer.

But I guess its useless to even discuss, loves makes blind and always a reason can be found to ignore this and isolate a seperate incident..

I think tThe rest of the western world watches with disbelieve.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:56 am



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 51):
The average active civilian shooter is more proficient than most police officers. I work at a range that rents range time to several Federal and local LE organizations for their qualifications. Some of them are scary.

Not so outside the US where, other then the police and military, civilians never get to touch a handgun. As for handgun training for police officers, I'll grant you that. Just a year or two ago it was mentioned in the press that a good part of officers had failed their annual shooting test. Has since been corrected.

Quoting Johns624 (Reply 51):
I would think that it's even worse in countries without a firearms heritage. I remember getting in a shipment of 20 year old German police handguns; they had plenty of surface wear from holsters but appeared to have hardly been shot.

So US officers apparantly have to shoot a lot, and German officers barely have to touch their gun at all. What does that tell you about safety? You say the officers do not use them, are therefor not proficient, and therefor Germany is unsafe? I think the officers do not use them, proving Germany IS safe! My dad has been an officer for years (he's now a deskjockey with the police). To my knowledge he never had to fire his gun in anger. Only once or twice for mercy killings on large animals hit by trucks and the like. And every bullet shot had to be accounted for!
 
baroque
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:33 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 54):
I think the rest of the western world watches with disbelieve.

Indeed it does Keesje, and as I learn from DfwRevolution (Reply 50) apparently quite a few of us are viewing it from "Utopia here and now", up and running at no extra cost to us - steps outside to breath the Utopian air - ah I feel better already.

Stepping outside western countries (Utopian or Dystopian as may be the case) it is interesting that very much the same as Aus holds for Indonesia. Trust for the police I would say has improved post-Suharto but they are hardly top of the list, but here is an entertaining view on how Indonesia goes with its dodgy Polisi and its very strict laws on guns:

http://www.expat.or.id/info/crimeratesinindonesia.html

Interpol now has crime statistics on the Internet. See the links below for the data.

Even accounting for under-reporting the differences are very large. The homicide rate in the USA remains over 15,000 people per year down from the 1991 peak of 24,700. The USA, Australia and UK should issue travel warnings on themselves! They should also offer subsidized evacuation status to all citizens who would like to be somewhere relatively safe, like Indonesia.

Crime statistics per 100,000 capita in Indonesia according to Interpol:
Homicide: 4 x safer than Aus., 14 x safer than UK, 6 x safer than US
Rape: 18x, 12x, and 32x respectively [Ed, I presume "safer should be read after the "x" for these and below]
Assault: 170x, 30x and 89x respectively
The few radical groups are under the increasing watchful eye of the police.

Sources: Interpol

KK


I have to say, I agree with KK (whoever they are), Bandung and the Kampung where I live are certainly as safe as Australia.

Finally, it does appear that at least one US poster is essentially suggesting that having sloppy gun laws amounts to a state of Dystopia. Well yes, to outside observers it does appear that way!

To close on a humorous note, I will quote again from that site:
I've lived in Indonesia for over 14 years and I jokingly (but seriously) respond to questions of this kind by saying ... the most dangerous thing in Indonesia is ... the water! Drink it bottled or boiled  Smile D

I would liken the village attitude to where wells are sunk to the US attitude towards guns, at best casual with negative consequences and at worst ......
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 2:37 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 50):

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 48):
Once you set foot here, it's back to a normal society where the police has the guns and citizens abide by the law.

I would like to see you try and post something that doesn't drip with condescension.

Your logic is dangerous, Wunala. What you could potentially suggest with such thinking is that the police and militias are the only legitimate holders of firearms and that law abiding citizens should not own them. That is a frightening prospect unless you fall for the utopian notions that:

1. The police are always available to assist you
2. The police will always arrive in a timely manner
3. The police can always be trusted

Gun crime is a problem no doubt, but the actions of a fringe minority on the edge of society should not be used as a justification to strip the law-abiding majority of one of their most important civil rights. Firearm regulation hits those people with far greater consequence than it does the villains.

Frightening? Let me tell you about my country...New Zealand... We do not consider ourselves to live in some kind of Utopia for starters... As for frightening... the thought that any person around you could be some nutcase with a gun in their pocket or back is a lot scarier than that same person only having access to a knife.

1) The police here are generally always available to assist you.... we don't bother to go through a whole process of splitting our police into City, County, State, Federal etc... we have once Police force although the country is divided into districts which fully co-operate and have the same equipment as each other.
2) Out in the country it can take a little longer for the police to arrive, then again crime in rural areas is generally of a lesser degree and very infrequent compared to urban areas.
Now in my previous post I specifically referred to hanguns (although automatic weapons etc should have also been mentioned). Guns do have a purpose in rural areas in the form of shotguns or rifles for animal control etc etc I'm not opposed to that and I quite like shooting rabbits and possums (both are considered pests here). It is much harder to conceal a shotgun (even saw-off) or a rifle compared to a handgun or uzi etc. Not to mention that its a lot harder to go on a shooting-spree with a rifle than it is with a handgun!
3) Police can be trusted.... over here they are.... (except when writing speeding fines!!!). I guess since corruption here is considered amoungst the lowest in the world there aren't really dirty cops here. Police here in normal duties are not armed with guns. The only police in New Zealand that are required to be armed with guns are the Airport Police (due to ICAO/Interpol whatever regulations), and the Armed Offenders Squad (AOS). The rest have until very recently got by without vests, or anything besides a baton and a maglight torch (they have vests now and pepperspray with some having tasers). Now the Police cars often have a handgun in the dashpocket and a rifle in the boot/trunk but the police don't walk around with them often.

Quite simply the crims don't usually have guns (some of the drug gangs have had the odd gun that they have managed to sneak in from Asia or the US). Since the police don't come across guns very often, they don't themselves need to be armed and the general public feels pretty safe that they aren't going to get shot by anyone. If anyone does pull out a gun, everyone knows about it and that person stands out to police because of it and is easy to track down.

Back to your post.... you mentioned militias... we don't have those.... we do of course have the Government Ministry of Defense (which like your own Defense Dept is made up of Army, Navy, Air Force.... we don't however have Marines or National Guard/Coast Guard). I know historically there were reasons for militias in America and there are differences (the biggest of course being that America is a lot bigger and is a Super Power in regards to the Defense Dept).

Now despite them being descended from a bunch of convicts  duck   Wink , even Australia has managed to clean up its act regarding guns

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 53):
You call it utopian, I call it reality in Europe, Australia or Canada

I know you Aussies like to consider New Zealand to be just like another state, but come on surely we fit on that list... in fact New Zealand's rate of gun crime is probably 1/4 of what Australia's is which is in itself a small fraction of what America's is.  Wink
 
baroque
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 2:57 pm



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 57):
I know you Aussies like to consider New Zealand to be just like another state, but come on surely we fit on that list... in fact New Zealand's rate of gun crime is probably 1/4 of what Australia's is which is in itself a small fraction of what America's is.

IMHO (or not so H if push comes to shove!) really is closer to Utopia than Aus.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 57):
Now despite them being descended from a bunch of convicts duck Wink , even Australia has managed to clean up its act regarding guns

OK, I was being good and not posting this so timely link, but you tempt me too much Zkpilot.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...apon/2008/12/25/1229998662010.html
Firearm murder rate drops, knives main weapon
Geesche Jacobsen and Erik Jensen December 26, 2008

AUSTRALIA leads other Western nations in a reduction in gun-related murders, crime statistics reveal.

......
"Police are looking at ways to increase getting knives off the street as well," he said.


But as has been pointed out, it usually takes a bit more determination to push a knife into someone. Another problem is that the stabber can tend to get covered in the stabbee's blood, which might be a give away.
 
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mayor
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:10 pm



Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 41):
Whilst I do not doubt what you say, my comment was in context to a terrorist group arming themselves in a non-gun nation.

And do you not think the drug gangs would find a way to arm themselves if it truly was a "non-gun" nation? No matter if it's guns, knives, baseball bats, cars, there will always be some means of carrying out a violent act. What we have to do is get to the root cause of the violence and you'll eliminate a good portion of the problems.

It seems to be a view from overseas of the typical American that just because he has a gun, he has a propensity towards violence. I don't have a handgun but I have several rifles and I've never had the urge to shoot someone and I would imagine that the vast majority of gun owners in the states are the same as me....law abiding citzens.
 
mham001
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:24 pm



Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 55):
So US officers apparantly have to shoot a lot, and German officers barely have to touch their gun at all. What does that tell you about safety? You say the officers do not use them, are therefor not proficient, and therefor Germany is unsafe? I think the officers do not use them, proving Germany IS safe! My dad has been an officer for years (he's now a deskjockey with the police). To my knowledge he never had to fire his gun in anger. Only once or twice for mercy killings on large animals hit by trucks and the like. And every bullet shot had to be accounted for!

I hope you don't have the perception that the police are wearing their guns out shooting at criminals. Few cops in their career will ever shoot their gun on the street in the US.

He was talking about training. With training comes safety, no target practice, no training, less safety for the cops guns.
 
TristarAtLCA
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:32 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 46):
The current one, anyway!

LOL. Good point !!

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 44):
I own a gun because I do not want to be dependent on anyone else to defend my life and property.

Would you still need the gun if you didn't feel fearful of armed criminals?

And isn't a good alarm and a dog more of a deterrant for burglers than a gun in your bedside cabinet?

Not inflammatory questions, just interested.
 
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seb146
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:47 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 29):
why don't laxer gun law states like Oregon and Texas (YOUR examples) have a higher crime rate than California?

I actually do not know what the gun laws are in any state. My partner was born and grew up in California. He has told me on many occasions that gun laws are more strict there than here. From what I have read about Texas, gun laws are less strict there than here in Oregon.

I think states like Texas, Arizona and California have higher crime rates in part due to their proximity to Mexico. Hear me out: In working with illegals, I have noticed they have a basic respect for the law (immigration law notwithstanding), but, other illegals believe they will simply be deported if they are caught robbing a store, so, to them, it is worth it. They can sneak back across the boarder and do it again and again and again. I think crime is higher in California, Arizona, and Texas is higher partly because of illegals.

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 33):
Our big problems with guns are in large, urban areas where it is most difficult for law abiding citizens to legally carry a weapon.

What about the fact that anyone with a "clean" record is allowed to own a gun? It really is not that difficult to carry a gun once a person is in posession of one. I think the problem with guns at large is: those commiting a crime and use a gun to commit said crime. There are gun crimes in rural areas. Just not as many because 1) there are not as many criminals in rural areas, and 2) since there are not as many criminals in rural areas, guns are not used as often. I have noticed in living in rural areas, if guns are used in criminal activity, it is mainly in domestic disturbances.
 
TristarAtLCA
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:57 pm



Quoting Mayor (Reply 59):
And do you not think the drug gangs would find a way to arm themselves if it truly was a "non-gun" nation?

Of course not and I never implied such a thing. The point I referred to was in relation to a completely seperate issue.

Quoting Mayor (Reply 59):
What we have to do is get to the root cause of the violence and you'll eliminate a good portion of the problems.

Agreed. But that seems as hard as removing the guns from the criminal elements.

Quoting Mayor (Reply 59):
It seems to be a view from overseas of the typical American that just because he has a gun, he has a propensity towards violence.

That may be some overseas people views, but looking at some of the replies on various threads most people seem to quote defence of self or property as their main reason. Maybe its just my impression of these comments but why does there appear to be this fear that something may happen everytime you step outside your homes.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:34 pm



Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 63):
Maybe its just my impression of these comments but why does there appear to be this fear that something may happen everytime you step outside your homes.

I don't think that bad things will happen if I step outside, but bad things do happen. A lot of people like to be prepared for an emergency and don't like the idea of waiting for the help of others. This is why a lot of people carry blankets, fire extinguishers, flares, etc in their cars. This is whey people have back up power generators and fuel. The list can go on and on. The police are a reactionary force. A good example was when that nut case in Omaha shot up that mall last year. The cops weren't there and several people died becuase they were unable to stop the guy. If I would have been there I would have tried to shoot that guy. I would have shot him just to wound him so he could stand trial, but that is off topic. Some people say that the police are better able to handle situations like that because they are trained to deal with that. I say that is a load of crap. I shoot more often than many cops and I may not be a cop, but neither is the bad guy I may be shooting at.

By the time the police come people will be dead. The police cannot be called until the shooting starts and by the time it ends the police may not have arrived yet. A lot of Americans don't trust the government and do not want or trust them to protect people.

Everynow and then we have an intruder drill at the school I teach at and evertime I mention that if the shooter would have walked into my classroom I would have shot him the second he walked in my door. Everytime I say that I get "you can't carry a gun in a school" and I always return by saying "go and tell that to the guy shooting up the school". Then they go on and on about how it may take the police 15 minutes to gather around the school and 30 minutes for a SWAT team to come from another city. We should be prepared to be in a lock down for at least an hour if a shooter came to our school. By that time a lot of people will be dead and nobody will have done anything to stop the shooter. It is no wonder that schools are such great targets. If I carried my gun that dead beat would be bleeding on the floor as soon as he opened it and the situation would be over before any cops showed up. Sure that shooter might get me, but I won't go down without a fight, and I bet I will have way more shooting time under my belt than he does and will be able to handle my firearm much better. A lot of criminals do not have much expierence firing their weapons because the don't get a lot of range time. Probably the most criminal free area in the USA is a gun shop and shooting range.

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 61):
Would you still need the gun if you didn't feel fearful of armed criminals?

Yes, because it is my right to own them. I like the idea of owning guns because so many other people in the "free world" are not allowed to own them. The ownership of guns backs up every right we have. Governments are changed by force. Once the citizens are disarmed the government can do what ever it wants and can grant only the rights is wants to. I have mentioned that before and people have said that the government doesn't grant rights, it is god given. Oh yes they do. Ask anyone who ever had their rights violated, a government who doesn't respect the rights of its people can walk all over them regardless what the law says.

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 61):
And isn't a good alarm and a dog more of a deterrant for burglers than a gun in your bedside cabinet?

Why not have all three. A gun is mobile as is a dog, but an alarm isn't. Somebody has to bother to listen to an alarm. Back in the 1980s when a car alarm went off everyone looked, today when one goes off nobody pays any attention. By the time the police came to my home if the alarm goes off the crime may be over or I am forced to flee. Why should I have to flee my home? The deadbeat who enters my home should be dead on the floor by the time the cops come. When it is ruled a clean shoot I will be held up as a model citizen in my city and have my name in the paper. Criminals will think twioce about victimizing people on my block. Every single person on my block is a gun owner, we have talked about it several times. Most of us own more than one gun too. There is never any trouble on my street.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:24 pm



Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 61):
Would you still need the gun if you didn't feel fearful of armed criminals?

And isn't a good alarm and a dog more of a deterrant for burglers than a gun in your bedside cabinet?

I carry a gun because it gives me options should a situation present itself. Much like insurance or an umbrella, except louder. I certainly do not fear armed criminals but respect the possibility, however remote, that I may encounter one.

I have an alarm, carryover from when I bought the house, and 2 dogs. I affectionately call the dobermann Bullet Sponge, because aside from her companion role, that is her function.

Also a note, the deterrant does not come because I, or any other citizen, is armed, it comes from the knowledge that anyone can be armed.
 
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keesje
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:11 pm



Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 65):
Also a note, the deterrant does not come because I, or any other citizen, is armed, it comes from the knowledge that anyone can be armed.

Maybe that is the clue. I can be 99.999% sure no one I meet has a gun. During 40 yrs I have never met anyone having a gun, or have ambitions owning one. We re not educated that having a gun is, cool, OK, smart or necessary.
 
johns624
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:57 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 62):
What about the fact that anyone with a "clean" record is allowed to own a gun? It really is not that difficult to carry a gun once a person is in posession of one.

But lawabiding citizens don't normally break the law. There is a big difference between buying a gun and being allowed to carry it. Where would you most be in need of it, in your house, or in public?
 
RussianJet
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:20 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 13):
Sounds like jealousy to me. We may not buy guns monthly, but we CAN. Great Britain's tough gun laws never seemed to stop the IRA, did they?

Jealousy? You have to be kidding! Never in this life. Taking the piss out the fact that people can buy guns monthly, or that they should ever feel they 'need' to? Definitely.

There's no way in hell I want guns freely available in my country thanks. The IRA has nothing to do with it, not one tiny bit, other than to say that perhaps if other countries also had strict gun laws (or rules about letting terrorists fund raise on their soil) then it may have been harder for them to obtain certain illegal weapons.

Criminals can still get their hands on guns in this country, but they have to be all the more determined to do so due to our controls, and much 'casual' gun crime or opportunist incidents are avoided.
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:46 pm



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 57):
I know you Aussies like to consider New Zealand to be just like another state, but come on surely we fit on that list...

You most definitely do belong! And my apologies for the omission! Now, when are you guys organising the referendum to re-join the Commonwealth so we can become Canzies (as in Commonwealth of Australian and New Zealand)?  biggrin 

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 57):
Now despite them being descended from a bunch of convicts duck Wink , even Australia has managed to clean up its act regarding guns

 rotfl 

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 49):
I think anyone should be able to have a gun as long as they have a completely clean criminal record and have no mental problems etc.. The problem in the US is it is to easy to buy guns in some places.

I see your point, but I wonder about the practicality of screening civilians for diseases and/or conditions (physical, mental or material) that could disqualify someone from owning a firearm. How often would have you to test someone for personality disorders? Eye vision? Muscular strength (to cope with the recoil, for example)? How much would that cost to the taxpayer? Or the permit holder?

There could be a risk of severely inflating costs to taxpayers or the private insurance holder.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:55 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 66):
During 40 yrs I have never met anyone having a gun, or have ambitions owning one.

That is a huge cultural difference between us. Out of the 40 or so people that I regularly associate with I can count on one hand how many do not own at least one gun. Most of them own at least one hand gun, one shotgun, and one rifle. I know there are plenty of Americans who can same the same about knowing few people with guns, but in the part of the country where I live and where I grew up gun ownership is as common as driving a Chevrolet.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 68):
and much 'casual' gun crime or opportunist incidents are avoided.

What about all the knife crime in the UK? I would say that may be opertunist and or casual. Using a knife on somebody is even more twisted because you reaaly have to get up close and personal to use it. I am glad that knife crime here is not that common and most shooting crimes involve people that know each other. I read in the Manchester paper this summer that 25% of Manchester area high school students carry knives. I can tell you first hand that even in the roughest US city schools 25% of the students do not carry guns. Even in the USA guns are not that easy for kids to get, regardless of what the news media says. Knives on the other hand are are a dime a dozen. I think we will see more violence in the UK and other parts of Europe with the rising presence of the Islamic street gangs. With time I think they will make the black and hispanic US gangs look peaceful. Our gangs are about business; the Islamic gangs are about business and relegion, a deadly combination.

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 65):
I carry a gun because it gives me options should a situation present itself. Much like insurance or an umbrella, except louder. I certainly do not fear armed criminals but respect the possibility, however remote, that I may encounter one.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
 
RussianJet
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:00 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 70):
What about all the knife crime in the UK? I would say that may be opertunist and or casual. Using a knife on somebody is even more twisted because you reaaly have to get up close and personal to use it. I am glad that knife crime here is not that common and most shooting crimes involve people that know each other. I read in the Manchester paper this summer that 25% of Manchester area high school students carry knives. I can tell you first hand that even in the roughest US city schools 25% of the students do not carry guns. Even in the USA guns are not that easy for kids to get, regardless of what the news media says. Knives on the other hand are are a dime a dozen. I think we will see more violence in the UK and other parts of Europe with the rising presence of the Islamic street gangs. With time I think they will make the black and hispanic US gangs look peaceful. Our gangs are about business; the Islamic gangs are about business and relegion, a deadly combination.

I don't view it as a choice between gun crime or knife crime. We should tackle both.
 
JJJ
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:24 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 70):
Islamic street gangs

What's that?

We have our share of Islamic terrorists here but street gangs?
 
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seb146
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:46 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 70):
in the part of the country where I live and where I grew up gun ownership is as common as driving a Chevrolet.

Me too. My brother lives in rural Washington and owns guns. Not much crime at all there. Even with illegals working the fields in the summer. Here, though, there is crime. There are Mexican gangs here. They mostly use numbers and knives to rob people. Just in the Portland area, I have noticed most crimes that involve guns, the gun is not even discharged.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:49 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 73):
I have noticed most crimes that involve guns, the gun is not even discharged.

Not 'even' discharged? You say that as though it someone makes it better that so many crimes are being commited using firearms in the first place.
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:29 pm



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 57):
we don't however have Marines or National Guard/Coast Guard). I know historically there were reasons for militias in America and there are differences (the biggest of course being that America is a lot bigger and is a Super Power in regards to the Defense Dept).

These military branches existed long before we were a super power.

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 61):
Would you still need the gun if you didn't feel fearful of armed criminals?

There are dangers other than criminals, i.e. much of the US is populated by animals that can be dangerous at times.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 62):
What about the fact that anyone with a "clean" record is allowed to own a gun?

Not even close to true in many areas, i.e. NJ, NYC, DC, etc. Even beyond the almost impossible areas like these, many places are "may issue" as opposed to "shall issue" as you imply.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 73):
There are Mexican gangs here. They mostly use numbers and knives to rob people.

Is this the perp?

 
johns624
Posts: 5557
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:03 pm

What bothers me is that in Australia, guns were pretty much outlawed due to one deranged man shooting a bunch of people. That makes as much sense as outlawing alcohol and cars because one drunk driver ran over some people at a bus stop. Thousands had their lives changed because of ONE idiot.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:08 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 76):
Thousands had their lives changed

For the better or for the worse, and why? I assume the necessary firearms are available as tools to people such as farmers to use?
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:32 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 76):
What bothers me is that in Australia, guns were pretty much outlawed due to one deranged man shooting a bunch of people. That makes as much sense as outlawing alcohol and cars because one drunk driver ran over some people at a bus stop. Thousands had their lives changed because of ONE idiot.

And I believe it was a very, very, very good thing to do, and am grateful to lawmakers at the time who took a bold step.

The fact remains that we do not hear much in the way of complaints about restrictive (I call them responsible and of common sense) gun laws here in Oz. Obviously the (ultra vast) majority of people are happy with tough gun laws.

As I said earlier, different backgrounds, different histories, different issues, different behaviours.
 
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seb146
Posts: 24661
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:39 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 74):
You say that as though it someone makes it better that so many crimes are being commited using firearms in the first place.

Hell no! People simply use a gun to commit a crime. They do get a harsher penalty, but, the fact that guns are easily avaliable was what I was getting at. Also, there are guns that are just laying around in houses and apartments. Children start playing with them, and someone ends up getting hurt. Again: I understand, accept and am at peace with those who use firearms to provide for their family (hunting). It is nearly impossible to have a "happy medium" in this discussion.
 
johns624
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:10 am

I wonder what the rate of "civil disobedience" is in Australia? I've heard that it's pretty high in Canada, especially Alberta and the Far North. I bet that a lot of legally owned firearms just disappear when it comes time to register them or turn them in.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:02 am



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 76):
What bothers me is that in Australia, guns were pretty much outlawed due to one deranged man shooting a bunch of people. That makes as much sense as outlawing alcohol and cars because one drunk driver ran over some people at a bus stop. Thousands had their lives changed because of ONE idiot.

As WY remarks, does not fuss most Australians one little bit. Only odd thing was seeing Johnny feel he had to wear a bullet proof vest while addressing a country audience in the middle of the moves to restrict guns.

"Pretty much outlawed" is one of those lovely bits of exaggeration that usually gets by, not this time though buddy. However, it might be a good time to point out that restricted as the control laws are, they have been followed by declines in gun deaths.

http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20...arah-Palin-will-never-consult.html
So what would Palin’s audiences make of Australia’s record on gun control? Ever since John Howard’s 1996 post Port Arthur gun law reforms, our local gun lobby in Australia has been the laughing stock of its US brethren. Our 1996 reforms were precipitated by the Port Arthur massacre, the 13th mass shooting in 15 years in which five or more victims died in places like Hoddle and Queen Streets in Melbourne and Strathfield Plaza.

The central provisions of the reforms were the ban on semi-automatic rifles and pump action shotguns, accompanied by gun amnesties and two national buybacks, which together saw some 820,000 guns destroyed. Because of their rapid firepower, semi-automatics are the guns of choice for those intent on killing many people quickly. John Howard introduced the reforms to prevent US-style mass killings, not primarily to prevent criminal or domestic gun homicides or gun suicides.
.....
Gun deaths in Australia are dominated by suicides, with about 79% of all gun fatalities, followed by 15% homicides and 2% unintentional shootings. Suicide with guns has what coroners euphemistically call a very high "completion rate". When those attempting suicide use a gun, they don't need a semi-automatic. The trigger gets pulled once, so a single shot suffices, from any gun that remained unaffected by the law reforms. So by removing only semi-automatics, we really wouldn’t expect any decline in gun suicides.

Yet as with gun homicides, firearm suicides in males declined from 3.4 deaths per 100,000 person years in 1997 to 1.3 per 100,000, a decline of 59.9%. The rate of all other suicides declined from 19.9 deaths per 100,000 in 1997 to 15.0 per 100,000 in 2005, a 24.5% decline, less than half that for gun suicides.

Having more guns around seems to be associated with more gun suicides, and more suicides overall. A paper published in this week’s prestigious New England Journal of Medicine compares gun suicide rates in the 15 US states with the highest rate (47%) of household ownership with six states with the lowest rates (15%). While the rates of non-firearm suicide were equal in these two groups, the states with high gun ownership had 3.7 times more male gun suicides and 7.9 times more female gun suicides than the low gun ownership states.

The USA has 14.3 times Australia’s population, 104 times our total firearm-caused deaths (30,143 in 2005 vs 289 in 2003), and 294 times Australia’s firearm homicide rate (12,352 in 2005 vs just 42 in 2005/06). In 1979, 705 people died from gunshots in Australia. Despite population growth, in 2003, this number had fallen to 289.

Well it makes sense to most of us. Do you have a problem with maths perhaps?
 
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Zkpilot
Posts: 4704
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:17 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 81):
So what would Palin’s audiences make of Australia’s record on gun control? Ever since John Howard’s 1996 post Port Arthur gun law reforms, our local gun lobby in Australia has been the laughing stock of its US brethren. Our 1996 reforms were precipitated by the Port Arthur massacre, the 13th mass shooting in 15 years in which five or more victims died in places like Hoddle and Queen Streets in Melbourne and Strathfield Plaza.

The central provisions of the reforms were the ban on semi-automatic rifles and pump action shotguns, accompanied by gun amnesties and two national buybacks, which together saw some 820,000 guns destroyed. Because of their rapid firepower, semi-automatics are the guns of choice for those intent on killing many people quickly. John Howard introduced the reforms to prevent US-style mass killings, not primarily to prevent criminal or domestic gun homicides or gun suicides.
.....
Gun deaths in Australia are dominated by suicides, with about 79% of all gun fatalities, followed by 15% homicides and 2% unintentional shootings. Suicide with guns has what coroners euphemistically call a very high "completion rate". When those attempting suicide use a gun, they don't need a semi-automatic. The trigger gets pulled once, so a single shot suffices, from any gun that remained unaffected by the law reforms. So by removing only semi-automatics, we really wouldn’t expect any decline in gun suicides.

Yet as with gun homicides, firearm suicides in males declined from 3.4 deaths per 100,000 person years in 1997 to 1.3 per 100,000, a decline of 59.9%. The rate of all other suicides declined from 19.9 deaths per 100,000 in 1997 to 15.0 per 100,000 in 2005, a 24.5% decline, less than half that for gun suicides.

Having more guns around seems to be associated with more gun suicides, and more suicides overall. A paper published in this week’s prestigious New England Journal of Medicine compares gun suicide rates in the 15 US states with the highest rate (47%) of household ownership with six states with the lowest rates (15%). While the rates of non-firearm suicide were equal in these two groups, the states with high gun ownership had 3.7 times more male gun suicides and 7.9 times more female gun suicides than the low gun ownership states.

The USA has 14.3 times Australia’s population, 104 times our total firearm-caused deaths (30,143 in 2005 vs 289 in 2003), and 294 times Australia’s firearm homicide rate (12,352 in 2005 vs just 42 in 2005/06). In 1979, 705 people died from gunshots in Australia. Despite population growth, in 2003, this number had fallen to 289.
Well it makes sense to most of us. Do you have a problem with maths perhaps?

excellent post and interesting reading!

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 69):

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 57):
I know you Aussies like to consider New Zealand to be just like another state, but come on surely we fit on that list...

You most definitely do belong! And my apologies for the omission! Now, when are you guys organising the referendum to re-join the Commonwealth so we can become Canzies (as in Commonwealth of Australian and New Zealand)? biggrin

I'm not opposed to it... I think both countries (but NZL in particular) would be better off if NZL joined the Commonwealth of Australia. Of course from an aviation perspective there would still have to be quarantine searches off flights from Oz because of your spiders, snakes, bugs, etc
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:28 am



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 82):
I'm not opposed to it... I think both countries (but NZL in particular) would be better off if NZL joined the Commonwealth of Australia. Of course from an aviation perspective there would still have to be quarantine searches off flights from Oz because of your spiders, snakes, bugs, etc

Don't worry, we would still check outgoing planes from our airports heading for yours, for all sorts of dole money.  biggrin 

More seriously, come on in, guys. As you said, I am absolutely convinced it would be mutually beneficial to great extents.

Quoting Johns624 (Reply 80):
I wonder what the rate of "civil disobedience" is in Australia?

I have honestly no idea. But the reality remains that the ban on firearms was not the result of one massacre perpetrated by one deranged person, but the consequence of quite a few of these disasters, in many parts of the country. It is an accumulation of horrifying events that simply led to a very welcome wake-up call and a steady decline in shootings ever since.

Baroque's post is quite telling in that respect.

But I also understand that American people do not have the same relationship with government as most other developed nations. As a general rule, and from my own personal experience, I would say that Australian and French people tend to trust their government to a substantially higher degree than their American counterparts would.

Therefore it makes sense that we would have different rules and laws.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:51 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 80):
I wonder what the rate of "civil disobedience" is in Australia? I've heard that it's pretty high in Canada, especially Alberta and the Far North. I bet that a lot of legally owned firearms just disappear when it comes time to register them or turn them in.

Well I have been checking up on the proportion of undetected crime here recently and am pleased to be able to report the same results as for civil disobedience of the type you ask about - no idea at all, just as Wunala wrote.

There are penalties and one does hear of prosecutions, but without contacts to the police, I have no idea of the ratio of warnings to prosecutions, but the general atmosphere about guns suggests low levels of tolerance of law breaking on that score. Aside from anything else, to much risk to anyone turning a blind eye if something awful happens - as it can do.

So basically, I will take your bet.  Big grin  optimist 
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:59 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 79):
Hell no! People simply use a gun to commit a crime. They do get a harsher penalty, but, the fact that guns are easily avaliable was what I was getting at. Also, there are guns that are just laying around in houses and apartments. Children start playing with them, and someone ends up getting hurt. Again: I understand, accept and am at peace with those who use firearms to provide for their family (hunting). It is nearly impossible to have a "happy medium" in this discussion.

I appreciate the clarification of your views as provided, which is all I was seeking in posting my comment earlier. I was not intending to make any assumption about your views and hope it did not come over that way.
 
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mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:24 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 71):
I don't view it as a choice between gun crime or knife crime. We should tackle both.

Why not tackle the causes of the crime and not the means?
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:30 pm



Quoting Mayor (Reply 86):
Why not tackle the causes of the crime and not the means?

I would never suggest the causes should not be tackled - however, doing both seems like a sound plan.
 
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falstaff
Posts: 5744
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:17 am

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:38 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 80):
I bet that a lot of legally owned firearms just disappear when it comes time to register them or turn them in.

I know all of mine will disapear if that happens in the USA. If government agents come to sieze them they will have to kill me first and I will take as many of them down as I can. I know there are thousands more like me, probably in my state alone. It is difficult to take away a constitutional right easily. Some people think the GWB took away some of our constitutional rights, but most conservatives don't think that is true. Take away the 2nd amendment and you will see a lot of dead government officials when they come to take guns.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 78):
And I believe it was a very, very, very good thing to do, and am grateful to lawmakers at the time who took a bold step.

I think it was cowardly. A few people cause a problem so everyone gets their guns taken. Just think if we applied that logic to: On 9-11-01 some muslims killed a few thousand people so lets stop all muslims from coming to the USA and outlaw their religion. People are run down intentionly by drivers sometimes so lets outlaw cars. I could go on and on.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 83):
I would say that Australian and French people tend to trust their government to a substantially higher degree than their American counterparts would.

Yeah, most Americans don't trust the government. I know I sure don't and I really haven't trusted them since I started working in schools.
 
IgneousRocks
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:06 pm

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:58 pm



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 16):
I'm of the opinion that there is no real need for a private citizen to have a handgun.

Well, if I lived in New Zealand I'd probably agree with you.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 16):
Whilst American's love to have a laugh at Canadians, you only need to look at your Northern Neighbour to see the difference in gun crime

Canada doesn't share a nearly 2,000 mile porous border with a nation that serves as a conduit for drug cartels and gangs from Central and South America. You live in blissful isolation in N.Z. (and woeful ignorance) when you make these sorts of comments.
 
WellHung
Posts: 3299
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:13 pm



Quoting IgneousRocks (Reply 89):
Canada doesn't share a nearly 2,000 mile porous border with a nation that serves as a conduit for drug cartels and gangs from Central and South America. You live in blissful isolation in N.Z. (and woeful ignorance) when you make these sorts of comments.

Accusations of ignorance are nothing but comic relief and irony from someone who blames Mexico for the huge discrepancy in gun violence between the US and Canada.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:29 pm



Quoting IgneousRocks (Reply 89):
Canada doesn't share a nearly 2,000 mile porous border with a nation that serves as a conduit for drug cartels and gangs from Central and South America. You live in blissful isolation in N.Z. (and woeful ignorance) when you make these sorts of comments.

Although geography is a factor, if one were to claim this was the only reason for such differences between the USA and Canada in respect of gun crime then I would suggest that would also qualify for the description of 'woeful ignorance'.
 
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mayor
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:49 pm



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 16):
Whilst American's love to have a laugh at Canadians, you only need to look at your Northern Neighbour to see the difference in gun crime.

And yet, the do still have crime, don't they? Restricting the guns hasn't changed that, has it?
 
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seb146
Posts: 24661
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:53 pm



Quoting Mayor (Reply 86):
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 71):
I don't view it as a choice between gun crime or knife crime. We should tackle both.

Why not tackle the causes of the crime and not the means?

That is a good idea, but what is the cause of crime? Mostly, it is to get money for drugs. That is trying to be tackled, but there are still drug addicts. There are programs, but not all addicts go through them. There are still drugs circulating in this country. How do we stop them? Search every single square inch of land in the country? That would be argued as illegal.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:58 pm



Quoting WellHung (Reply 90):

Quoting IgneousRocks (Reply 89):
Canada doesn't share a nearly 2,000 mile porous border with a nation that serves as a conduit for drug cartels and gangs from Central and South America. You live in blissful isolation in N.Z. (and woeful ignorance) when you make these sorts of comments.

Accusations of ignorance are nothing but comic relief and irony from someone who blames Mexico for the huge discrepancy in gun violence between the US and Canada.

Excellently Hung as you might say. My understanding is that the US is a major source of guns for Mexico. So yes the border does seem to be porous, but as far as guns are concerned, the semi-permeable membrane is allowing guns to flow from the zone of greater gun pressure (the US) to the zone of lesser pressure in DDM (dreadfully dangerous Mexico).

Aha, not only my failing memory but also:
http://www.portfolio.com/news-market.../Examining-the-US-Mexico-Gun-Trade
Arming the Drug Wars by James Verini July 2008 Issue
The U.S. has pledged more than $1 billion to help Mexico win its war on drugs. But even as the body count rises above 10,000, most of the guns that do the killing---Colt .38 Supers and big-bore Barrett rifles among them---keep pouring in from the U.S.


But Ingenious Rocks is right about one thing, living in NZ is indeed blissful. However, this bliss may not be linked very strongly to ignorance. If my (again failing) memory serves me aright, NZ has three Nobel prizewinners and before you think this is not so many, it includes the extremely formidable Ernest Rutherford.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:04 pm



Quoting Mayor (Reply 92):
And yet, the do still have crime, don't they? Restricting the guns hasn't changed that, has it?

has anyone suggested that resctricting guns would get rid of all crime, be it gun crime or other?
 
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mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:08 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 93):
That is a good idea, but what is the cause of crime? Mostly, it is to get money for drugs. That is trying to be tackled, but there are still drug addicts. There are programs, but not all addicts go through them. There are still drugs circulating in this country. How do we stop them? Search every single square inch of land in the country? That would be argued as illegal.

I'm not suggesting I know how to do it, but if you get rid of the guns, you'll still have crime and the root cause (drugs, in your example) will still be there. I addition to that, even if you eliminate the guns, the criminals will still be able to obtain them and the law abiding citizen will be the ones affected by the gun laws, much as it is today. Criminals will always find a way to commit crime, no matter the weapon. Only by eliminating the causes of crime will it end.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:17 pm



Quoting Mayor (Reply 96):
Only by eliminating the causes of crime will it end.

And again, why not tackle crime AND the causes of crime simultaneously?
 
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falstaff
Posts: 5744
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:37 pm



Quoting IgneousRocks (Reply 89):
Canada doesn't share a nearly 2,000 mile porous border with a nation that serves as a conduit for drug cartels and gangs from Central and South America

Violence is usually a staple of poor communities too. I know that in many wealthy areas around my city there are large numbers of gun owners. Many of these people own some very expensive guns and some even own a lot of them. A lot of the poorer communities actually have less guns, but a lot more gun crime. A good example of this is in Detroit. You see a lot of people in the community calling for an end to gun crime and want to restrict gun ownership. You don't here people in Lake Orion or Liviona complaining about gun crime in their wealthier commities. Yes there is gun crime in some nice places too, but far less. The problem seems to be with poor people and guns. Takle poverty and drugs and a lot of crime goes away.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 97):
And again, why not tackle crime AND the causes of crime simultaneously?

No reason to. If you take care of the causes the crime goes away.

Quoting Mayor (Reply 92):
And yet, the do still have crime, don't they? Restricting the guns hasn't changed that, has it?

Most of that crime is in poor areas, just like in the USA.

Quoting Johns624 (Reply 80):
I wonder what the rate of "civil disobedience" is in Australia? I've heard that it's pretty high in Canada, especially Alberta and the Far North.

I met several people in the UK who still own guns and I met a lot more that wish they still had them. This past summer I was in Leeds, with a redneck friend of mine, and we did what we do at home. We drink at bars with other rednecks. After some searching we found some bars frequented by rednecks and antigovernment types. We talked about guns, liberals, trucks, religion, and other classic good ole' boy topics. We were happy to meet people like us and they were happy to meet Americans like us. I was told on several occasions that they didn't know there were still Americans like me and my buddy Zac. We thought the same thing. I found the same kind of thing in Germany this year too. If you stay out of the cities the people's feelings about the government change and their opinions about guns change too. I was happy to find out that their are rednecks in Europe. I would think that many European visitors would find the USA like that too. If one were to visit New York City or San Francisco they will find a lot different political opinions than in Springfield, Missouri, or Ford City, Pennsylvania.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:43 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 98):
No reason to. If you take care of the causes the crime goes away.

Of course there is. First of all, unless you can solve all the causes of crime overnight then by tackling the actual crimes you will help protect innocent people whilst the problems you allude to are gradually solved. Secondly, it is probably impossible to solve literally all the causes of crime, and I do not believe that every single crime can even have a logical cause. Therefore, a certain degree of policing of the actual crimes is always going to be required.
 
cptkrell
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 10:50 pm

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:58 am

Sorry to jump in here late, and I admit I haven't read ALL of the previous 185+ replies, so I'll apologize if the following is redundant as far as mathematics is concerned, or actual lives for that matter, (and this is specific to the actual topic - "correltaion"):

Sep. 07 FBI report:

US Justice Dept. "The nation's murder rate is near a 40-year low." The number of privately owned guns in the U.S. is at an all-time high.

Violent crime has actually slightly decreased in '07. HOWEVER, in 2007, the cities with the highest murder rates were those with the most strict city/state gun control laws: Detroit, Baltimore, D.C., and so on.

Yeah, I know there will be those of you that want to argue statistics and so-on, however I really do believe that you can also be trained to be more realistic by education and observation.

BTW; we don't call 9-11 down here in the Hollow. regards...jack
 
IgneousRocks
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:06 pm

RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crim

Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:52 am



Quoting WellHung (Reply 90):
someone who blames Mexico for the huge discrepancy in gun violence between the US and Canada.

Who is blaming Mexico? The United States proximity to Mexico and Central America factors greatly into criminal violence in the U.S. no matter what those choose to believe.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 94):
My understanding is that the US is a major source of guns for Mexico.

Again...the guns by themselves are harmless, it is the criminal element that perpetrates the violence.

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