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RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:46 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 109):
You can leave your anti-semitism flags at home - they aren't needed here because we are talking about *Israel* and not *Judaism*. Yes, the two are very much seperable and do not come as a package, and as such, disagreeing with the former does not make you anti-semetic.

 checkmark 
I'm still waiting for an apology to participants of this thread who were unfairly and baselessly accused of racism, or at least a retraction of that horrendous and untrue allegation.

When will people learn that waving the race card around unnecessarily undermines the true cause of tackling anti-semitism and other racist attitudes?
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
flexo
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:54 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 93):

OK, fine. That's how negotiations happen.

Now please tell me what concessions you consider that Israel should offer, and what concessions you think that the Arab nations should offer in return?

To tell you the truth I'm very pessimistic that a peaceful solution for the middle east conflict is possible in the near term. That is also why I'm not condemning Israel's air strikes - I simply don't see an alternative to a military conflict right now.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:57 pm



Quoting Flexo (Reply 101):
That is also why I'm not condemning Israel's air strikes - I simply don't see an alternative to a military conflict right now.

Killing terrorists aside, can you not at least condemn the 'collateral damage' (a disgusting term when applied to human life) of dozens of civilians being killed?
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
flexo
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:05 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 102):

Killing terrorists aside, can you not at least condemn the 'collateral damage' (a disgusting term when applied to human life) of dozens of civilians being killed?

I said before already that it is always sad and regrettable when innocent people are affected (killed or wounded) in a conflict.
But unfortunately that is what happens during a war and since I am saying the war is justified I can hardly condemn its consequences.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:14 pm



Quoting Flexo (Reply 103):
I am saying the war is justified

Its not a war. Its a terrorist attack on a largely civillian population.
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:24 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 100):
I'm still waiting for an apology to participants of this thread who were unfairly and baselessly accused of racism, or at least a retraction of that horrendous and untrue allegation.

It may be that some people concluded that you didn't read the thread thoroughly before posting . . .

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 99):
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 60):
I have not read anything anti-semitic on this thread. Unless you have some serious evidence to back up that outrageous statement, made simply because people disagree with Israel's actions and therefore your opinion, then you owe this thread an apology. That is disgraceful.

He actually said anti-Jewish . . .

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 46):
the anti Jewish posts on this forum

. . . so going from that, what's this . . .

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 11):
What is now called Israel has to be moved out to a different location and the Palestinians should be given their land back.

??

Living the American Dream
 
Gman94
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:25 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 109):
I'm still waiting for an apology to participants of this thread who were unfairly and baselessly accused of racism, or at least a retraction of that horrendous and untrue allegation.

When will people learn that waving the race card around unnecessarily undermines the true cause of tackling anti-semitism and other racist attitudes?

I wouldn't hold your breath. The ones playing the anti Semitic card are the same people who think this all started a few years back when Hamas started firing rockets. Obviously they haven't read a history and discovered who's land and homes got stolen by Israel. But the aggressor is allowed to defend themselves against any provocation whereas the Palestinians are just supposed to be accept being Israels doormat.

And before anyone jumps down my throat I don't condone any terrorist action but some of you need to educate yourselves and stop laying everything on the Palestinians.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:27 pm

The attack took place at a time when it is well known that alot of children were leaving schools etc and there were alot of civilians in the area. The Israelis must have known this....
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:29 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 98):
And you've just made everyone a combatant - see how easy killing civilians was for you to justify? Congratulations, you've just agreed to be judged by the same standard as Hamas and every other terrorist organisation out there - they find it easy to justify killing civilians.

From the Geneva Conventions

Article 28
The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.


In other words, terrorists hiding behind civilians does not prevent Israel from counter-attacking. The responsibility for civilian deaths is on the terrorists.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:30 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 106):
Obviously they haven't read a history and discovered who's land and homes got stolen by Israel.

It was your country that held jurisdiction over the mandate over the area and planned for Jews to have a home of their own - "the Mandate recognized the 'historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine,' called upon the mandatory power to 'secure establishment of the Jewish National Home' "

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_ww1_british_mandate.php
Living the American Dream
 
Gman94
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:36 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 109):
It was your country that held jurisdiction over the mandate over the area and planned for Jews to have a home of their own - "the Mandate recognized the 'historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine,' called upon the mandatory power to 'secure establishment of the Jewish National Home' "

I know and before the Zionist nutjobs started on the Palestinians they were killing Brits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
Acheron
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:02 pm



Quoting Flexo (Reply 101):
I simply don't see an alternative to a military conflict right now.

Hamas cannot be considered a military force of any kind, thus, you can hardly be considered a "military conflict". If anything, its only people droping bombs on other people, with one side hoping to kill as many of the other side as possible, while the other one hoping to get at least one of the other guys regardless if it takes 10 or 20 innocent people with them.


And terrorism in the area is not a new "fad" brought by Hezbollah or Hamas, or have we forgotten the dealings of Haganah or Irgun when the palestinians territories still was the British Mandate of Palestine?.
 
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:04 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 55):
The setting up of the 'State of Israel' as such was never approved by the United Nations.

Yet you call on Israel to abide by resolutions passed by the UN who had no role in its creation, don't think thats what you meant, if the UN came to recognize a country it did not create can anyone else do so?

Palestinians living in terror and appalling conditions breed more hate and revenge against Israel, Israelis living in terror and bunkers while unguided missiles are fired at them breeds what? Do we expect human beings on one side to be affected differently by terror, humans are the same the world over, their responses can be predicted.

Gaza has a border with Egypt, yet all the media only has acces via Israel, why does the Egyptian Govt. not allow media access through its border? The conditions of the border does have some conditions, I believe Israel expects Egypt to ensure that weapons and ammunition are not allowed, I find it hard to believe that the media is included.

Suggestions:
During the last Lebanon conflict, this discussion came up, my solution is the same, I do not believe that the Gaza stip is viable, it should be traded with Israel for like size land area adjoining the West Bank. If / when Palestine becomes an independent nation, Gaza will be physically seperated from the rest of the nation, it will be a landlocked divided nation.

Presently, there is too much hatred on both sides for any viable nations to be created with safe corridors, neither side will feel safe from the other, at least the West Bank will have more border area, Gaza will only have Israel, Egypt and the sea. Something which confuses my understanding of the issue is the border crossings between Israel and Gaza, why does Israel open it, especially when they consider the danger of suicide bombers, they would be letting the bombers in, is there any viable trade between both parties?

The border with Egypt, why is humanitarian aid, food, fuel etc. not shipped into Gaza from Egypt, is that border closed for any reason, why would the UN and other aid organizations subject themselves to the Israeli rules and stoppages, when they could easily set up shop in Egypt and ship in supplies unhindered, no one is accusing the UN of shipping in weapons so whats the problem there? Prior to the border being given over to Egypt the situation was different, Israel controlled everything, but the sea is nearby, boats could land in Egypt and trucks could get supplies into Gaza, why is it in the best interest of so many people to see the citizens of Gaza suffer when they can be supplied without the consent of Israel.

There are many questions in the ordeal, way too many.
 
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moo
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:20 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 108):
From the Geneva Conventions

Article 28
The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

In other words, terrorists hiding behind civilians does not prevent Israel from counter-attacking. The responsibility for civilian deaths is on the terrorists.

Theres the Geneva Convention, and then theres things you just don't do as a human being.

You are still finding it easy to justify killing civilians, it would seem.

[Edited 2008-12-27 11:21:28]
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:25 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 105):
It may be that some people concluded that you didn't read the thread thoroughly before posting . . .

You seem to be confusing a political comment with the notion of an attack on a particular ethnicity or religion, yet again abusing the cause of tackling racism and anti-semitism to slur those who hold valid political opinions based on the actions of a state against a repressed people.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 99):
He actually said anti-Jewish . . .

*sigh*.

It's a synonym.

Antisemitism (alternatively spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism; also rarely known as judeophobia) is prejudice against or hostility toward Jews as a group. The prejudice or hostility is usually characterized by a combination of religious, racial, cultural and ethnic biases. While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, since its creation it has been used exclusively to refer to hostility towards Jews.[1][2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 109):
It was your country that held jurisdiction over the mandate over the area and planned for Jews to have a home of their own - "the Mandate recognized the 'historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine,' called upon the mandatory power to 'secure establishment of the Jewish National Home' "

Right, so the historical actions of a country have to dictate the personal opinions of all of its citizens?
 sarcastic 
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:04 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 113):
Theres the Geneva Convention, and then theres things you just don't do as a human being.

You are still finding it easy to justify killing civilians, it would seem.

When there is no other choice, you have to do what you have to do. I have not heard you offer another reasonable course of action.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:34 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 115):
When there is no other choice, you have to do what you have to do

By that logic the same could be said by the Palestinians. They can suffer no more and have no other option than to strap explosives to themselves and go into Israeli towns and cities.
 
planewasted
Posts: 537
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:56 pm

Give the people 1 month to move, after that every nuclear nation blows a nuke at the place:
Conflict solved.
The rest of the world can go together and pay for the material costs.

I'm so tired of this conflict.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:01 pm



Quoting Flexo (Reply 103):
sad and regrettable when innocent people are affected (killed or wounded) in a conflict.

I think that is a massive understatement, and that civilian loss of life should be prevented as an absolute priority when planning any action, and not just shrug our shoulders and say 'ah well, a few innocent people will get killed but we might get a couple of bad guys'. The priorites here seem to be totally the wrong way round.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:16 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 11):
There is only one solution. What is now called Israel has to be moved out to a different location and the Palestinians should be given their land back.

So many countries in the ME that shouldn´t exist, Iraq is one. Latest update is +200 dead
in Gaza, at least UN soldiers has stopped the rockets prepared from Lebanon to start a fight there.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:20 pm

From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:20 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 114):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 99):
He actually said anti-Jewish . . .

*sigh*.

It's a synonym.

Antisemitism (alternatively spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism; also rarely known as judeophobia) is prejudice against or hostility toward Jews as a group. The prejudice or hostility is usually characterized by a combination of religious, racial, cultural and ethnic biases. While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, since its creation it has been used exclusively to refer to hostility towards Jews.[1][2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

I do not understand why my post's would continue to be deleted. I did not call anyone and anti-semite despite RussianJets assurance that I used a synonym.

I do now what an anti-semite is. My father and grandfather were both anti-semite's. My father was born in Germany and my grandfather and some of his brother's where in the German Army during WWII. They both hated, mistrusted and despised the jewish race. We had many a heated argument in our house when he would make an unjustified comment of the jewish race. They both died hateing the "Jew" doctor's and lawyers that helped them or took care of them. My grandfather even left the hospital to go home and die so the "jews" would not get anymore of his money. It was pathetic by my standard's and I could never understand it. I grew up in a heavily Jewish area in Chicago and have many friends that are Jews. That is where my defense of the jews/Israel race comes into play.

Maybe anti-jewish is the wrong wording. Just like I think that anti-zionist is used to disguise the dislike of Jews. I guess Anti-Israel should be a better term.

As for this conflict as long as the people who hold the future of these nations are continued to be brainwashed into hating the other side or into always blaming the other side this conflict will continue. The wrong's go both ways but to me it has always seemd the Israel is asked to give more. There should be somekind of mediation/arbitration like in baseball. Whatever the arbitrator comes up with as the midpoint is what you have to live with. If not then the world will bring down the hammer on the side that does not go along with this binding arbitration.

I am also a firm believer in Jerusalem being made some kind of world historical site and being made an open city to all religion's and races. No more fighting over it...

Oh well. I hope this explains my positions a bit.
 
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:23 pm

There are too many circular arguments in this issue, unfortunately, emotions rule and I fear nothing will get done, a few points.

Citizens of Gaza live in terror and death only breeds the emotion of hate and revenge.

Israelis living in bunkers with unguided rockets flying over only breeds the emotion of hate and revenge. Human beings are the same the world over, as an international community, what did we expect to happen?

The world will no doubt be putting a lot of pressure on Israel in the next few days, to what end?

Hamas will continue to launch rockets and possibly suicide attacks, Israel will respond, should the international community be forcefull on both sides of the equation? Regardless of the damage being done by the unguided rockets, they are being launched with no intention of minimizing civilian casualities, should the international community have been more vocal in their protest, as they are now when guided munitions are being used, would anything would have happened differently? Death is death, the side makes no difference, unless we believe in the notion that if you wipe out a civilization all will be well. If either Israel of the Palestinians wipe out each other, will the international community now recognize the survivor and welcome them with open arms because the violence is over?

There are elected representatives on both sides of this issue, when are we going to hold them responsible for the ongoing situation? History is one thing, reality is another, this situation can only be resolved in the present, not in the past.
 
EL-AL
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:26 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 104):
Its not a war. Its a terrorist attack on a largely civillian population.

You are right, the Palestinian terrorist are attacking civilian population, that's 8 years now only around Gaza.

As I said, Israel only attacks military targets, while the Palestinians in Gaza attack only civilians. So who is the terrorist? I wonder what would your government do if some cities in Ireland are bombarded for 8 years.
every day is a good day to fly
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:29 pm



Quoting Avi (Reply 22):

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 4):
Great job Israel, world peace is one step closer now

No, but I guess you think about 1000 Palestinians rockets from the beginning of November into Israeli cities (targeting only civilians) brought peace closer.

Quoting Oa260 (Reply 5):
After this Israel have no sympathy from alot of people in the international forum from what I have read and seen.

Why does something tell me that you have no idea about the heavy attack on Israel civilians in the past 2 months?

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 11):
13:12 Hamas: War in Gaza is like Second Lebanon War (Channel 10)

Someone should remind Hamas that before the war Hezbollah attacked Israel every 3 months or so and since the end of the war (almost 2.5 years ago) they didn't attacked us even once (because they know we will react).

Erev tov,
I think the best solution would be as in Lebanon when the gunsmoke settles, I think it´s best if UN would enter Gaza and all civilians should be disarmed and Egyptian police work with armed UN troops. I consider the Palestinian election in Gaza to be like county elections not state election since Palestine isn´t a recognized state.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:35 pm



Quoting EL-AL (Reply 123):
Israel only attacks military targets

Yes, even when surrounded by civilians and civilian buildings.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
jacobin777
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:43 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 112):
Suggestions:
During the last Lebanon conflict, this discussion came up, my solution is the same, I do not believe that the Gaza stip is viable, it should be traded with Israel for like size land area adjoining the West Bank. If / when Palestine becomes an independent nation, Gaza will be physically seperated from the rest of the nation, it will be a landlocked divided nation.



Quoting EL-AL (Reply 123):
You are right, the Palestinian terrorist are attacking civilian population, that's 8 years now only around Gaza.

Why has the Israeli Govt. consistently and continuously taken land which was supposed to be given to the Palestinians? Land which even the Israeli's biggest supporter, the United States has said is wrong.

It works both ways....hence why this problem won't solved until we get new people from both sides.


"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result."

-Albert Einstein

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 125):

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 123):
Israel only attacks military targets

Yes, even when surrounded by civilians and civilian buildings.

 checkmark 
"Up the Irons!"
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:49 pm



Quoting Flexo (Reply 23):
The Palestinians need to learn that peace is not a one way street.

you're the biggest hypocrite of them all...you say the they need to learn peace is not a one way street whilst they're caged up in 3rd world like conditions in Gaza, seriously, what kind of reaction do you expect from people that are oppressed in this manner?
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:57 pm



Quoting EL-AL (Reply 123):
As I said, Israel only attacks military targets,

Like they did with BEY airport when they were dropping bombs on it in 2006 . That was just hours after they killed 8 Canadians after a strike in a border town.

It seems like there is a problem in Israel over what is military and what is not. Is it ok to bomb Tel Aviv airport and blow up 13 El Al aircraft on the ground like the Israelis have done at BEY in the past? Is El Al a legitimate target as they seem to think MEA is ?
 
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n229nw
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:04 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 51):
Do you honestly believe that the eye for an eye attitude will keep Israeli's safe? What are the chances Hamas won't retaliate? This action by the Israeli military just justified, in their eyes, any Hamas attack. It is free, strong propaganda for them to recruit more people.
It's this kind of action that feeds all the Iranian BS. Remember, Israel is the country here, they are the ones that should try to set the example. Sit sown, talk, try to do everything possible to stop this madness, forget the orthodox crying out. Instead, your military chooses to act like Hamas, but with F-16's. How is that keeping Israeli citizens safe?

That about sums it all up.

Quoting Flexo (Reply 78):
IMO the Hamas started the conflict and the Palestinians as a people are to be held accountable as they did nothing to stop them.

This is the the hear of the issue. I don't think a people should ever be held responsible for the actions of a terrorist group that operates among them. It's morally wrong, but additionally, it has never, ever solved a problem.
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
Maverick623
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:05 pm



Quoting Oa260 (Reply 5):
A third of the dead are civillians and the force is excessive.

As opposed to the rocket attacks which directly target civilians...

Quoting Oa260 (Reply 5):
Israel have just created a new flock of suicide bombers.

So let me get this straight: Some thug decides he feels since his grandfather once owned the land I currently live on, I shouldn't be there (which, in the case of Israel, may or may not be justified). He decides to spray my house with bullets. I call the cops, and they guy winds up dying in a shootout. His buddies get mad and decide to burn my house down... and them burning the house down is my fault?

Get real.

Quoting Oa260 (Reply 5):
This is one of the most high density populated areas in the world and even with the most upto date missiles Israel knows they will kill innocent people.

Which is why Hamas has compounds where they do. Provoke a reaction from Israel, get them to accidentally kill a few civilians, and have the sympathy of the bleeding heart media. When was the last time you saw pictures of injured Israeli children and other civilians plastered all over CNN?


And remember, it was Hamas who broke the cease-fire. Shows you just what kind of people they are.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
jacobin777
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:11 pm



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 130):

And remember, it was Hamas who broke the cease-fire. Shows you just what kind of people they are.

Show's how deluded you are if that's what you believe. The Israeli Govt. has had blockades for access to food, medicine, etc. for many months.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 130):
So let me get this straight:

So let me get this straight. Its ok for the Israeli Govt. to violate United Nations resolutions, practically imprison people in urban ghettos, steal their land and expect people do do nothing?
"Up the Irons!"
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:20 pm



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 130):
Some thug decides he feels since his grandfather once owned the land I currently live on, I shouldn't be there

If your Father owned a piece of land which was stolen from him and then you are born grow up and that land is rightfully left to you but you cant get it because someone is occupying it then are you a thug? Id love to see it . Id say you would be hopping mad in reality.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 130):
When was the last time you saw pictures of injured Israeli children and other civilians plastered all over CNN?

Not today , I saw 1 or 2 casualties on the Israeli side and reports of 225 dead on the Palestinian side. Whenever there have been dead Israeli citizens I always see those on the news also and its equally as outrageous but to Israelis 200 dead Palestinians are just numbers .
 
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moo
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:24 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 115):

When there is no other choice, you have to do what you have to do. I have not heard you offer another reasonable course of action.

There is always a choice, but bombing an urban center to kill a handful of people is never ever, ever top of the list in any sane persons options.

Congratulations - Israel managed to kill, oh lets be generous, 50 Hamas diehards today. They also succeeded in bolstering Hamas' support by many times that number - when you drop bombs into urban centers, you don't tend to gain the support of the people living there.

41 years is how long this conflict has been going on. 41 years is how long Israel has kept Gaza as a literal prison nation state. 41 years and neither side has learnt anything.

What makes you, or Israel, or Hamas for that matter, think that more and more and more bombing is going to solve anything? It hasn't over the past 41 years, why now?

The alternative is to solve the underlying problem. Are you willing to make that choice? Or just kill each other for a while longer and accomplish nothing?

Give the people of Gaza an offer they do not want to refuse - give them hope, give them peace. Give them a future and they will hand you Hamas on a plate - because they won't need them and their ways any longer.

Can Israel grow a pair and do that? Because they haven't yet.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:33 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 136):
What makes you, or Israel, or Hamas for that matter, think that more and more and more bombing is going to solve anything? It hasn't over the past 41 years, why now?

The alternative is to solve the underlying problem. Are you willing to make that choice? Or just kill each other for a while longer and accomplish nothing?

 checkmark . I keep saying:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 126):

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result."

-Albert Einstein

"Up the Irons!"
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:55 pm

Learn from the past, put up an UN post in Gaza, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Emergency_Force
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:58 pm

5,389 Palestinians killed by Isreal and 32,270 injured over the last 8 years.
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:04 pm



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 131):
Show's how deluded you are if that's what you believe. The Israeli Govt. has had blockades for access to food, medicine, etc. for many months

What about the border with Egypt?????? Is Israel blockading that one also???

Quoting OA260 (Reply 132):
If your Father owned a piece of land which was stolen from him and then you are born grow up and that land is rightfully left to you but you cant get it because someone is occupying it then are you a thug?

How do you know who stole from whom? When the Arab league attacked the newly formed UN sanctioned Israel in 1947 many Arabs fled on their own accord or where even urged to flee out of the way so the Arab armies could kill the Jews. And then they would let the refugees return to claim everything even what would have been taken from the now extinct Israeli's. Are you a refugee if your own side urges you to leave. How many refugees where there? Check with the UN's numbers and you would be surprised. Did the Israelis steal that land after they had been attacked and won the battle? No. How many times did the Arab league attack them and how many times did Israel gain land from being attacked? The Arabs could of agreed with the UN sanctioned event in 47 and would have to this day control of the 47 borders. But "they" chose the path of war and that is what they have had for 60 years now. Do you think if Israel went back to the 67 borders that the conflict would end and that Hamas and Hezbollah and their puppetmaster in iran would then recognize israel???
 
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moo
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:09 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 137):
What about the border with Egypt?????? Is Israel blockading that one also???

Uhm, yes actually. Egypt does not control the border completely, everything they do is done under agreement with Israel and Israel retains oversight.
 
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moo
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:11 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 137):
How do you know who stole from whom?

This is a good point, and one which is at the core of the issue at hand - neither side will agree on this.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 137):
Do you think if Israel went back to the 67 borders that the conflict would end and that Hamas and Hezbollah and their puppetmaster in iran would then recognize israel???

No, I don't - because the 67 borders do not resolve the issue of the Palestinian nation, including Jerusalem.
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:12 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 138):
Uhm, yes actually. Egypt does not control the border completely, everything they do is done under agreement with Israel and Israel retains oversight

But if the UN wabnted to move in relief and supplies through that border do you think that Israel would or could stop it. I do not think so. The Arab refugees fellow Arab's are aiding in this blockade yet Israel gets all of the blame.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:15 pm

Israeli soldiers tell of indiscriminate killings by army and a culture of impunity

From a distance of 70 metres and through the sight of his machine gun, Assaf could tell that the Palestinian man was aged between 20 and 30, unarmed and trying to get away from an Israeli tank. But the details didn't matter much, because Assaf's orders were to "fire at anything that moved".

Assaf, a soldier in the Israeli army, pressed the trigger, firing scores of bullets as the body fell to the ground. "He ran and I started shooting for a few seconds. He fell. I was a machine. I fire. I leave and that's that. We never spoke about it afterwards."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/06/israel
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:15 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 139):
No, I don't - because the 67 borders do not resolve the issue of the Palestinian nation, including Jerusalem.

I still think that all of Jerusalem needs to made and open city. Owned by no one but governed by a council that represents all sides and religions. A world Heritage site.

Jerusalem should not ne a prize for either side.
 
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moo
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:16 pm

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 140):

But if the UN wabnted to move in relief and supplies through that border do you think that Israel would or could stop it. I do not think so.

Why not? They've done it before many times.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL18505079

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/11/13/60043.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7726943.stm

http://wwww.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf...D/e53b45d3ede105fdc1256be9005962f1

[Edited 2008-12-27 15:17:23]
 
a380us
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:16 pm

Honestly the people here calling Israel Terrorists and comparing them to the Nazis are either naive or insane, or both.
Could any of you honestly say that if you led a country and were attacked DAILY that you wouldn't retaliate? I think not.
And if children of your country had to go to school and during recess instead of going to the bomb shelter you'd think your military should just stay back and not attack.

Israel gets hit by 100's of rockets a week... but no there the terrorists.

Speaking from personal experience- two years ago, I spent the summer in Israel during the war. And there were days instead of going swimming or hiking or going to the mall... whatever it might be you do on a summer day- I was in a bomb shelter.
This was because of war- not against a country- against a TERRORIST "organization."
Israel has to stand up for itself and its people. Why would any country let any one attack them and not expect retaliation??!?!??!? PLEASE EXPLAIN IT!!!
www.JandACosmetics.com
 
zotan
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:17 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 116):
By that logic the same could be said by the Palestinians. They can suffer no more and have no other option than to strap explosives to themselves and go into Israeli towns and cities.

So you are advocating targeted attacks on civilians?
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:17 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 141):
Israeli soldiers tell of indiscriminate killings by army and a culture of impunity

From a distance of 70 metres and through the sight of his machine gun, Assaf could tell that the Palestinian man was aged between 20 and 30, unarmed and trying to get away from an Israeli tank. But the details didn't matter much, because Assaf's orders were to "fire at anything that moved".

Assaf, a soldier in the Israeli army, pressed the trigger, firing scores of bullets as the body fell to the ground. "He ran and I started shooting for a few seconds. He fell. I was a machine. I fire. I leave and that's that. We never spoke about it afterwards."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005...srael

Have you posted a article about the rockets and mortars being fired indiscriminately at the israelis in this thread yet??
 
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moo
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:19 pm



Quoting A380US (Reply 144):
Could any of you honestly say that if you led a country and were attacked DAILY that you wouldn't retaliate? I think not.

Its not the retaliation that people have issue with, its the means of retaliation that should separate us from them - and thats rapidly becoming a blurred line because people are now finding it so easy to justify attacks like these ones.

Never let that line become easy to cross.
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:20 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 143):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 140):

But if the UN wabnted to move in relief and supplies through that border do you think that Israel would or could stop it. I do not think so.

Why not? They've done it before many times.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL18505079

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/11/13/60043.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7726943.stm

http://wwww.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf...962f1

Then how can the argument of a blockade be held up then? Saying that Israel controls everything going in and out is not a valid argument
 
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moo
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:20 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 146):
Have you posted a article about the rockets and mortars being fired indiscriminately at the israelis in this thread yet??

Is anyone disputing it happens? No? Why the need to post articles about it then?

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