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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:24 pm



Quoting A380US (Reply 144):
And if children of your country had to go to school and during recess instead of going to the bomb shelter you'd think your military should just stay back and not attack.

A few videos you may like to watch about going to school as a Palestinian::

''students at risk each day from imprisonment and perhaps worse - welcome to the typical education experience in a Palestinian school.''

http://english.aljazeera.net/program...ss/2007/12/200852519244959978.html

Links to Videos in Bold black at the bottom.

Quoting A380US (Reply 144):
instead of going swimming or hiking or going to the mall.

My heart bleeds. Where are these ''luxuries'' for the Palestinians? They don't know where their next meal is coming from let alone worry about swimming pools. Puts things into perspective doesn't it?
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:26 pm



Quoting A380US (Reply 144):
and were attacked DAILY that you wouldn't retaliate?



Quoting A380US (Reply 144):
Israel gets hit by 100's of rockets a week... but no there the terrorists.

Nobody has suggested they shouldn't retaliate or take some kind of action.

Nobody has suggested that Palestinian terrorist attacks are anything but that.

Seriously, please respond to the posts actually made and not to the ones you imagine were made or the ones that you would like to think were made in order to make justification of your views simpler.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
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moo
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:30 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 148):

Then how can the argument of a blockade be held up then? Saying that Israel controls everything going in and out is not a valid argument

I don't understand what you are trying to say - the fact that Israel holds Gaza under a blockade is not under question, they do and they regularly block aid going into Gaza. The fact that they do let some stuff through does not alter the fact that Israel do control the borders, and do control what is legitimately moved into Gaza.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:31 pm



Quoting ZOTAN (Reply 145):
So you are advocating targeted attacks on civilians?



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 146):
Have you posted a article about the rockets and mortars being fired indiscriminately at the israelis in this thread yet??



Quoting Moo (Reply 147):
Its not the retaliation that people have issue with, its the means of retaliation



Quoting Moo (Reply 149):
Is anyone disputing it happens? No? Why the need to post articles about it then?

Moo has answered the questions accurately.
 
flexo
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:41 pm



Quoting N229NW (Reply 129):

Quoting Flexo (Reply 78):
IMO the Hamas started the conflict and the Palestinians as a people are to be held accountable as they did nothing to stop them.

This is the the hear of the issue. I don't think a people should ever be held responsible for the actions of a terrorist group that operates among them. It's morally wrong, but additionally, it has never, ever solved a problem.

Yes it has very much. Just look at Germany and WWII. Do you honestly believe Hitler could have been beaten if the allies limited themselves to military targets? They bombarded entire Germany including the civil population. That caused massive casualties among innocent people. However, even though my grandfather died like that I think all that was justified for the greater cause of now 63 years of peace in western Europe.

I think limiting wars to military targets is one of the major mistakes in modern warfare and also the reason it is so dreadfully ineffective (see Iraq: tremendous amount of money spent and hardly any success)
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:57 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 149):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 146):
Have you posted a article about the rockets and mortars being fired indiscriminately at the israelis in this thread yet??

Is anyone disputing it happens? No? Why the need to post articles about it then?

Because you continually see threads started when Israel reacts to something that has happened to them.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 150):
Quoting A380US (Reply 144):
And if children of your country had to go to school and during recess instead of going to the bomb shelter you'd think your military should just stay back and not attack.

A few videos you may like to watch about going to school as a Palestinian::

''students at risk each day from imprisonment and perhaps worse - welcome to the typical education experience in a Palestinian school.''

Why do Israeli teachers have to have weapons with them? How many schools did the terrorist Arafat and his ilk target? How much of the money that has been given to the PLA over the years trickled down to the children. And how much of it ended up in Arafat's bank accounts or used to purchase weapons? Much of what they have or do not have they have has been brought down on them by their own leaders.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 150):
My heart bleeds. Where are these ''luxuries'' for the Palestinians? They don't know where their next meal is coming from let alone worry about swimming pools. Puts things into perspective doesn't it?

No. see the above answer. it may seem cold hearted but the Arab peoples have been offered a deal many a time and have refused it. Blame thieir ill advised leaders who have continually over the years broken deals with rockets and homicide bombers.

Quoting Moo (Reply 152):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 148):

Then how can the argument of a blockade be held up then? Saying that Israel controls everything going in and out is not a valid argument

I don't understand what you are trying to say - the fact that Israel holds Gaza under a blockade is not under question, they do and they regularly block aid going into Gaza. The fact that they do let some stuff through does not alter the fact that Israel do control the borders, and do control what is legitimately moved into Gaza.

They have a three sided blockade. If their Arab neighbor wanted to help or allow shipments to go in they could. Israel could not stop them without an all out war. The Arab refugees in gaza control one border along with Egypt. If Egypt is not helping move supplies in and are complying with the Israels three sided blockade then they are complicit in this. The Arabs have been complicit in this since day one. All of these so called refugee camps where created by the fellow Arabs. Why did they just not let all of them immigrate into the neighboring Arab countries after 47. Because they needed pawns in the bigger game. And they have kept them as pawns ever since instead of letting them assimilate into Jordanian or Egyptian society.
 
EL-AL
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:02 am



Quoting Moo (Reply 133):
The alternative is to solve the underlying problem. Are you willing to make that choice?

Actually, we did. In August 2005 Israel withdraw from the Gaza strip, removed all army bases in the strip and evacuated all settlements. So, basically, there is no occupation in Gaza for more then 3 years now. Isn't it solving the underlying problem? The Palestinians made the new problem all by themselves, when they democratically elected the Hamas in 2006, and took part in overthrowing Abas's rule on the strip in 2007.

With no Israelis in Gaza, and an extreme militant group calling day and night that the only solution will be the devastation of the state of Israel and forming a religious Muslim state in the area, like Iran, plus constant bombardment of Israel from Gaza, what else can the Israeli government do?

Quoting Moo (Reply 133):
Give the people of Gaza an offer they do not want to refuse - give them hope, give them peace. Give them a future and they will hand you Hamas on a plate - because they won't need them and their ways any longer.

Well, we did that too. In 1993 the Israeli government singed a peace agreement with the Palestinians, with a terrorist who tried nothing but killing Israelis for 25 years, Yasser Arafat, to solve once and for all this conflict. What happend? Arafat refused to have 98% of the west bank + Gaza in 2000 for an independent Plaestinian state (This was said by Bill Clinton, not by me) and opened the terror war aginst Israel. Could we give them more hope and peace then sighning a peace agreement with thier leader, who used to by for the Israelis like what Bin Laden is today for Americans?

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 137):
Do you think if Israel went back to the 67 borders that the conflict would end and that Hamas and Hezbollah and their puppetmaster in iran would then recognize israel???

Finnelly! Just like attacks from Lebanon continue after the withdrow in 2000, and just like attacks from Gaza continued after the withdrow in 2005. The goal of those people when they say "Stop the occupation" is "no more Israel", not even withing 5 blocks in Tel Aviv. Just take a look at the map in Hamas's flag.
every day is a good day to fly
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:20 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 155):
How much of the money that has been given to the PLA over the years trickled down to the children. And how much of it ended up in Arafat's bank accounts or used to purchase weapons?

Where do the Millions of USA tax $$$$ go to which is given to Israel? You want posted the pictures of what these $$$ inflict on the Palestinian people?
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:30 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 157):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 155):
How much of the money that has been given to the PLA over the years trickled down to the children. And how much of it ended up in Arafat's bank accounts or used to purchase weapons?

Where do the Millions of USA tax $$$$ go to which is given to Israel? You want posted the pictures of what these $$$ inflict on the Palestinian people?

And how many dollars go to Egypt?? More than what goes to Israel. What is Egypt doing for the Arabs in Gaza? When the palestinians broke down the border fence earlier in the year the Egyptians acted like someone emptied out the prisoners from a high security jail on them. And if the terrorist would stop firing rockets and mortars into Israel you would not be seeing any response or any of your pictures today.

[Edited 2008-12-27 16:31:45]
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:37 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 158):
What is Egypt doing for the Arabs in Gaza?

Not bombing innocent Palestinians and then claiming to be David.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:39 am

Something of interest:

"Ironically, one of Israel's experiments involved assisting in the creation of Hamas, which had its roots in Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, to counter the power of Yasser Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organisation. Israel has been determined to push Hamas ever closer to all-out war since insisting that even though it won free and fair Palestinian legislative elections in 2006, its right to govern could not be treated as legitimate.

Since Hamas took power in Gaza in summer 2007, after a short, brutal struggle with Fatah, Israel's policy has been one of collective punishment, summed up in the policy of "no prosperity, no development, no humanitarian crisis". Not a visible humanitarian crisis, at least.

For what has been going on inside Gaza since the economic blockade began a year and a half ago has cynically stretched the definition of what constitutes the boundaries of such a crisis.

Those seeking urgent medical care outside Gaza's walls are forced to go through a long and humiliating process. Even some of those who are allowed to leave, human rights groups say, have been pressured into becoming informers for Israeli intelligence.

One in two Gazans is now living in poverty. Aid is sporadic, and as the World Bank warned at the beginning of December, the blockade has forced Gaza to become reliant on smuggling tunnels (taxed by Hamas), which risked destroying its conventional economy. Inflation for key products smuggled through the tunnels is rampant, which in turn has brought cash to Hamas."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...israelandthepalestinians-terrorism
"Up the Irons!"
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:41 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 159):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 158):
What is Egypt doing for the Arabs in Gaza?

Not bombing innocent Palestinians and then claiming to be David.

How many dollars are going to Egypt?? And if the Egyptians are complicit in the Embargo are they also not complicit in the bombings then. And if the terrorists did not fire rockets and mortars at Israel would Israel then not need to retaliate???
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:46 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 161):
And if the terrorists did not fire rockets and mortars at Israel would Israel then not need to retaliate???

And if Israel didnt keep the Palestinians locked up and isolated / sitting ducks in the concentration camp that is Gaza then maybe they might feel differently towards Israel.  listen 
 
jacobin777
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:57 am

"Sudden attacks lead to territory's highest death toll in a single day since Six Day War in 1967"*

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...and-leave-700-injured-1213838.html

Most in sixty years!  Wow!

Simply despicable and barbaric.  

edit:

More tidbits

"A million and a half human beings, most of them downcast and desperate refugees, live in the conditions of a giant jail, fertile ground for another round of bloodletting.

The fact that Hamas may have gone too far with its rockets is not the justification of the Israeli policy for the past few decades, for which it justly merits an Iraqi shoe to the face"

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050451.html

[Edited 2008-12-27 17:05:18]
"Up the Irons!"
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:13 am



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 163):
"Sudden attacks lead to territory's highest death toll in a single day since Six Day War in 1967"*

Yes I am watching the BBC news now. Its the worst massacre on the Palestinians since 1967. The news reports are showing the 3 year old kids cut and burned and the families buried under the rubble of their homes. Other residents trying to move the rubble with their bare hands.

All Military targets of course.  Yeah sure

Shame on Israel . They have comitted crimes against humanity today they should be tried in the Hague.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:16 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 164):

Shame on Israel . They have comitted crimes against humanity today they should be tried in the Hague.

  

Along with the current Bush administration and past members such as Wolfowitz, Feith, Rumsfeld, etc.

I guess everything is a "military target" now.

"Israeli warplanes have resumed their air strikes on Gaza, blasting targets all over the Strip, including a mosque and a TV station."

"Israeli warplanes have resumed their air strikes on Gaza, blasting targets all over the Strip, including a mosque and a TV station."


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi.../2008/12/20081227193910425276.html

[Edited 2008-12-27 17:19:15]
"Up the Irons!"
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:53 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 162):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 161):
And if the terrorists did not fire rockets and mortars at Israel would Israel then not need to retaliate???

And if Israel didnt keep the Palestinians locked up and isolated / sitting ducks in the concentration camp that is Gaza then maybe they might feel differently towards Israel.

Once agian. follow close. Who is keeping the border with Egypt closed? You cannot have a three sided embargo. And if they did not fire rockets and mortars would they still be isolated from the general population of israel? No. the border crossings would be open and things would be improving. As long as they have a terrorist organization leading in hamas and as long as they continue to shell israel they will stay in the position they are in. They can change it if they want. It is there choice.

And you still have not answered why all of the money that went to the PLA from western doners did not trickle down to the children, schools and food. But instead ended up in the pockets of leaders like Arafat.

And why does Egypt receive more aid from the US that Israel does?

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 163):
More tidbits

"A million and a half human beings, most of them downcast and desperate refugees, live in the conditions of a giant jail, fertile ground for another round of bloodletting.

tThe propaganda machine is spinning. Actually maybe only a few of these people are actual refugees.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 164):
Shame on Israel . They have comitted crimes against humanity today they should be tried in the Hague.

 Embarrassment

Getting old
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:57 am



Quoting Par13del (Reply 122):
There are too many circular arguments in this issue, unfortunately, emotions rule and I fear nothing will get done, a few points. Citizens of Gaza live in terror and death only breeds the emotion of hate and revenge. Israelis living in bunkers with unguided rockets flying over only breeds the emotion of hate and revenge. Human beings are the same the world over, as an international community, what did we expect to happen?

Fighting for political and military control in the holy lands has taken place for MANY centuries. As long as Israel has the U.S. and the Western European countries as staunch allies, the Muslim extremists are going to continue to attack them. If they cut their ties with the West they would be lost. Right or wrong, we need Israel to help protect Western interests in the Middle East. Granted, the Israelis needs the West for their national security.

Terrorism in the Middle East is our ticket to protecting the oil fields and oil transit in the name of "national security". If the West truly wants to stop this cycle of violence, we need to cut our dependence on foreign oil. If we didn't need the oil, we wouldn't be meddling in Middle East politics and complicating the negotiations to end this bloody warfare.

Would the Western governments continue to support an ally that we no longer need? Ask Saddam Hussein.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
jacobin777
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:59 am

No words needed.


http://sabbah.biz/mt/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/gaza65.jpg

http://sabbah.biz/mt/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/gaza60.jpg

http://sabbah.biz/mt/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/gaza86.jpg

http://sabbah.biz/mt/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/gaza47.jpg
"Up the Irons!"
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:08 am



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 168):
No words needed.

No pictures of the rockets or mortars falling on Israel? None of the injured or killed by those.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:14 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 166):
tThe propaganda machine is spinning. Actually maybe only a few of these people are actual refugees.

I guess you really know a lot.. sarcastic 

"Gaza has one of the highest population densities in the world, and most of its population, about 56%, is 16 or younger. Many are malnourished – some estimates put the figure as high as 75%. According to a recent study cited by the noted author, Chris Hedges, 46% of Gazan children are afflicted with acute anemia, and 30% suffer from stunted growth as a result of chronic malnutrition. About a tenth of these children have permanent brain damage. "


Kenneth Ring - Gazan Voices, American Silence


Quoting Windy95 (Reply 166):
Getting old

I guess mass death, destruction and carnage is "old news" for you..not for the 1.5 million inhabitants of Gaza.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 169):

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 168):
No words needed.

No pictures of the rockets or mortars falling on Israel? None of the injured or killed by those.

..and how many were killed or injured? Put up some numbers if you are going to talk.
"Up the Irons!"
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:26 am

Huge crowds gather in Gaza for Hamas anniversary
Sunday, December 14, 2008

"Marking 21 years since its founding, a triumphant Hamas bragged about its violent exploits"

"In comments aired Sunday, exiled Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal said a six-month truce with Israel would not be renewed after it expires this week"

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Dec...,4670,MLIsraelPalestinians,00.html

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 170):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 166):
tThe propaganda machine is spinning. Actually maybe only a few of these people are actual refugees.

I guess you really know a lot..

"Gaza has one of the highest population densities in the world, and most of its population, about 56%, is 16 or younger. Many are malnourished – some estimates put the figure as high as 75%. According to a recent study cited by the noted author, Chris Hedges, 46% of Gazan children are afflicted with acute anemia, and 30% suffer from stunted growth as a result of chronic malnutrition. About a tenth of these children have permanent brain damage. "

If these terrorist quoted above cared about the children then they would lay down their arms and make peace with israel. But with there leaders being sworn to israels destruction I guess the children will have to wait.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 170):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 166):
tThe propaganda machine is spinning. Actually maybe only a few of these people are actual refugees.

I guess you really know a lot..

Actually I do and yes by using the plight of the children it is just part of the propaganda machine.

If they really wanted to they could of had peace already. And what about that border with Egypt. Do all of their supplies have to come through Israel. Why cannot their Arab brothers provide them with all they need? Why does it have to come throught israel. That is right the three sided embargo.
 
SkyyKat
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:32 am



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 170):
guess mass death, destruction and carnage is "old news" for you..not for the 1.5 million inhabitants of Gaza.

Israel is always going to be #1 for some people no matter what they do.

The problem is that we are not talking about the Terrorist Governments of BOTH nations, and the innocent people regardless of what they think dont want to be bombed by fighters or shot at by rockets.

Damn right the Government of Israel is Terrorist, they just have more fire power than Hamas and unlimited funds from the west. Even Belgium wants to try Sharon for crimes against humanity. (if he wakes up I hope it happenes.)

The hardest problem to solve will the reconciling of two peoples one day that have so much justified hatred for each other.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:09 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 171):
If these terrorist quoted above cared about the children then they would lay down their arms and make peace with israel. But with there leaders being sworn to israels destruction I guess the children will have to wait.

Make peace? The Israeli Govt. has put a blockade since Hamas came into power. They have cut vital supply lines, have killed scores of civilians, have prevented a lot of humanitarian aid from coming in, etc.


Not to mention:



 point Saying that "the children will have to wait' just goes to show how callous you really are as you seem rather indifferent if kids die or get maimed, irregardless of what Hamas is.

A shame there is no "disrespected list".

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 171):

Actually I do and yes by using the plight of the children it is just part of the propaganda machine.

Not even Hamas is that good.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 171):
And what about that border with Egypt. Do all of their supplies have to come through Israel. Why cannot their Arab brothers provide them with all they need? Why does it have to come throught israel. That is right the three sided embargo.

The border with Egypt is observed by the Israeli Govt.

Quoting SkyyKat (Reply 172):
Damn right the Government of Israel is Terrorist,

 checkmark ...That's what I stated as my first post as well, but it was deleted by the moderators.
"Up the Irons!"
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:27 am



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 173):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 171):
And what about that border with Egypt. Do all of their supplies have to come through Israel. Why cannot their Arab brothers provide them with all they need? Why does it have to come throught israel. That is right the three sided embargo.

The border with Egypt is observed by the Israeli Govt.

What does "observed mean" cannot Egypt have an open border with Gaza? Would Israel risk going to war with Egypt to stop the flow of legitimate materials over the border? No because the US gives them billions of our tax dollars and nice shiny F-16's to keep the peace.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 173):
Saying that "the children will have to wait' just goes to show how callous you really are as you seem rather indifferent if kids die or get maimed, irregardless of what Hamas is.

A shame there is no "disrespected list".

Who continues to bring children into this world knowing full welll the conditions that they will be living in. That is who belongs on your "disrespected list". And I did not say they would have to wait I said that by continuing to wage war and keep with the destruction of iIsrael theme they (the leaders) are condemning those kids and the next generation to the same thing. It has to start somewhere. If they (Hamas) would accept Israel as nation and stop building bombs and rockets I highly doubt that Israel would continue on. They would not have the support at home or with the world in general. But the power play between Hamas and the P.A. keeps the children in the crossfire. They have just as much blame in this as Israel does, if not more.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 173):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 171):

Actually I do and yes by using the plight of the children it is just part of the propaganda machine.

Not even Hamas is that good.

your opinion
 
Maverick623
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:29 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 132):
Id say you would be hopping mad in reality.

I wouldn't start lobbing rockets into neighborhoods or blow myself up on a bus.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
rjpieces
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:30 am

To all of those talking about the casualties. Of course nobody (except for Hamas and its supporters, of course) wants to see innocents die, especially innocent children. I think any decent human being would feel bad seeing a picture of an innocent child bleeding as a result of the airstrike. BUT it must be viewed in context, and with an understanding of history (long-term and recent). This was not an indiscriminate attack on Gaza; by any standard, they had it coming with their constant launching of rockets into Israel. Frankly, if an entity in Canada or Mexico were launching that number of rockets on an American town, and the Canadian or Mexican government did nothing to stop it, I can ensure you that the American military would not be nearly as restrained as the IDF always is. In other words, the town and the people who live there would be flattened. In a number of hours. Not after years of rocket attacks.

The world is a nasty place, especially the Middle East; many posters in this thread can't seem to grasp the fact that violence is intrinsic to human beings, especially in that region. If only it were as easy as saying "well they need to talk peace", or "Israel needs to do X,Y, and Z." I am basically trying to say that people should accept that there will be conflict, and try to view it in context. In this case, Israel was clearly provoked, and can not continue to live with the actions of Hamas in Gaza. It does not excuse innocent people dying, but really, to all of those cursing Israel in this thread, what do you do when thousands of rockets have been and are continually being launched? Don't give me some abstract "return to 1967 borders" line. But really answer me this--How does Israel (and Egypr), which does not occupy Gaza anymore and has no territorial ambitions for it, stop HAMAS from launching rockets?

On a side note, not to excuse innocents who did nothing wrong dying, but really people, 200 deaths by Israel and you make it sound equivalent to the Holocaust. Compare that number to the number of Arabs killed by THEIR FELLOW ARABS in the last 30 years alone; the number is probably several times the amount of Arabs killed by Israel in that time.

And finally on another note, I love reading these threads and seeing all of the American posters defend our good ally Israel (with the exception, of course, of some Arab/Muslim-Americans like Jacobin777, who is entitled to his opinions, however far from the American mainstream they are), and most everyone else engaging in their usual rants.

It makes me happy to know that the vast majority of Americans stand with Israel, which is the morally right thing to do.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
SkyyKat
Posts: 141
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:55 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 176):
good ally Israel
Lets see how good of an ally they would be if we treated them like all the rest of our allies, never mind the BILLIONs of aid we send them for some odd reason and all the military aid, all of the terrorist and illegal acts that we over look.

Think about it  

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 176):
which is the morally right thing to do.

And who happens to be your moral adviser?  rotfl 

The right thing to do morally would be to stand with the people of both sides, and not support one corrupt government that is not serving the best interests of either side.

[Edited 2008-12-27 20:04:07]
 
Acheron
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:03 am



Quoting SkyyKat (Reply 177):
Lets see how good of an ally they would be if we treated them like all the rest of our allies, never mind the BILLIONs of aid we send them for some odd reason and all the military aid, all of the terrorist and illegal acts that we over look.

Lol, the Good Ally that has sold a few classified technologies of the US to China.
 
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EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:05 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 115):
When there is no other choice, you have to do what you have to do. I have not heard you offer another reasonable course of action.

With the weapon technology available to a military superpower like Israel, what happened today is far from a reasonable course of action. You have precision weapons yet 195 people died, of which most were not Hamas ... reasonable?

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 119):
So many countries in the ME that shouldn´t exist, Iraq is one

Huh? why is that?

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 123):
As I said, Israel only attacks military targets, while the Palestinians in Gaza attack only civilians

Only military targets? Are you sure about that? And btw, for the 100000th time, Everyone knows Hamas is a terrorist group. As sad as it is, that is what a terrorist group does, they terrorize, they target civilians to create terror. NO ONE EVER DENIED THAT!
But actions such as today's show that despite the budget, the precision weapons, the technology, the experience, the Israeli military uses the same tactics as a terrorist group, They terrorize Palestinians

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 130):
And remember, it was Hamas who broke the cease-fire. Shows you just what kind of people they are.

And the Israeli military killed 195 people, of which the vast majority were civilians, during a time of day when it was full of kids running around .... that shows what kinf of people the Israeli military are.

Quoting A380US (Reply 144):
Speaking from personal experience- two years ago, I spent the summer in Israel during the war. And there were days instead of going swimming or hiking or going to the mall... whatever it might be you do on a summer day- I was in a bomb shelter.

Why didn't you go to Gaza to enjoy your summer holiday, where I'm sure you'll find amazing state of the art malls, due to the prosperity of the region, since they have economic freedom?

Quoting Flexo (Reply 154):
Yes it has very much. Just look at Germany and WWII. Do you honestly believe Hitler could have been beaten if the allies limited themselves to military targets? They bombarded entire Germany including the civil population. That caused massive casualties among innocent people. However, even though my grandfather died like that I think all that was justified for the greater cause of now 63 years of peace in western Europe.

First of all, Gaza is not Germany, nor does it have the military power Germany had, nor does it have the manpower Germany had. But most important, in today's modern military, you can not make such mistakes. There were no precision weapons in WWII (Having said that, I don't justify the civiian killing in any war, and there have been a lot of tremendous atrocities on that matter by all sides involved in WWII).
What happened today was a Terrorist attack disguised as self defence and backed by the west, especially the US. The US reacted like if a football game had gone bad because of hooligans . Why does the US not condenm these actions? I'll ask again: had Iran just killed 195 Israeli's, would the US have reacted the same way or would we wake up tomorrow to a war declaration by Israel, the US, the UN and the rest of the "civilised" world against Iran? I'm sick and tired of the double standards in this matter, and I'm sick and tired that some people play the race card whenever they can't defend their position.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:09 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 176):
It makes me happy to know that the vast majority of Americans stand with Israel, which is the morally right thing to do.

What????? and why is that the morally right thing to do?? I think the morally right thing to do is be neutral and stand with a peacful solution, not with an oppresive military nor with a terrorist group.
And btw, the vast majority either don't know or don't care about what's going on.

[Edited 2008-12-27 20:10:55]
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
a380us
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:38 am



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 173):
Not to mention:



ARE YOU KIDDING ME

Do you know how they lost the land?
Are you aware of war? when Israel was given the "crap" land then Negev. It couldnt even be fertelised and the palestinians still didnt liek that so started wars!
Take a history lesson and come back.
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NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:46 am

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 174):
cannot Egypt have an open border with Gaza? Would Israel risk going to war with Egypt to stop the flow of legitimate materials over the border?

The trouble is, Windy95, you really know next to nothing about the facts.

Please look at the maps kindly provided in Post 173 above.

Israel invaded and occupied the Egyptian Sinai Peninsula in the 1967 War. The territory was returned to Egypt by Israel in 1979 following the Camp David agreement, at which time Egypt recognised the State of israel. The two countries have had normal foreign relations ever since.

That leaves Israel with a long vulnerable border stretching hundreds of miles south-eastward through the desert, all the way down to the port of Eilat on the Red Sea. Neither Israel nor Egypt have anything like enough military resources to guard it.

So if the Egypt/Gaza border was opened it would be open to the militants to work their way south along the border and then raid north-eastward into Israel virtually at will. So Israel has fenced the border with Egypt and operates patrols and checkpoints all along it; and Egypt (being at peace with Israel) also exercises strict control on their side.

Combining that with constant Israeli naval and air patrols means that Gaza is completely cut off from the outside world. Therefore, as I said earlier, it (like the West Bank, in which Israel also controls all the roads and the bridges to Jordan) is no more and no less than a huge concentration camp.

The moral of the story is, Israel gave Egypt back the land that it had invaded and occupied in the 1967 war, and the result was immediate peace with Egypt. Exactly the same offer (peace and recognition of Israel in return for the territories stolen in 1967 from Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon) has been 'on the table' ever since Camp David in 1978.

A quick and certain path to peace is therefore available to Israel at any time..

[Edited 2008-12-27 20:49:45]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Springbok747
Posts: 3993
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:58 am



Quoting SkyyKat (Reply 172):
Israel is always going to be #1 for some people no matter what they do.

 Yeah sure

Number of warnings from Hamas since the end of the truce till they started launching rockets into Israel: zero.
Number of warnings from Israel to stop rocket attacks: more than enough.

So what is a proportionate response? Proportionality doesn't matter here. A response of this strength and conviction is justified; anything less would be useless against Hamas.

Oh, and one more thing...who voted the Hamas government in? When are we going to see the Palestinians protest against Hamas for turning their life into a living misery?

Answer: Never.

By electing Hamas they have demonstrated no interest in peace. They had this coming.
אני תומך בישראל
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:06 am



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 183):
So what is a proportionate response? Proportionality doesn't matter here. A response of this strength and conviction is justified; anything less would be useless against Hamas.

Really? I can't imagine how something like today has an impact on future Hamas -or any other terrorist group- recruitment. Let's see, 200 people killed, of which let's say 50 were Hamas.The image of killed civilians, especially kids, creates even more anger and fury against Israel. Outcome, much more than 50 new terrorists will be created out of this hatred. If Israel wants to destroy Hamas, this is not the way to do it. I'm not so sure that is Israel's goal however. But we can get back to that later.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
baroque
Topic Author
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:39 am



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 109):
It was your country that held jurisdiction over the mandate over the area and planned for Jews to have a home of their own - "the Mandate recognized the 'historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine,' called upon the mandatory power to 'secure establishment of the Jewish National Home' "

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_ww1...e.php

How about a source of information other than Gov of Israel? Better yet, why not cite the British reports on the mandate prepared in the 1930s? References are in some early posts.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 112):
The border with Egypt, why is humanitarian aid, food, fuel etc. not shipped into Gaza from Egypt, is that border closed for any reason, why would the UN and other aid organizations subject themselves to the Israeli rules and stoppages, when they could easily set up shop in Egypt and ship in supplies unhindered, no one is accusing the UN of shipping in weapons so whats the problem there?

Are you serious that you do not know why the border is closed. No you have to be kidding, you are a well read person.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 161):
How many dollars are going to Egypt?? And if the Egyptians are complicit in the Embargo are they also not complicit in the bombings then. And if the terrorists did not fire rockets and mortars at Israel would Israel then not need to retaliate???

You will find out how many dollars if you read
http://qesdb.cdie.org/gbk/gbk2006.pdf
Page 12 has a quick summary. The Egypt summary is on page 5, and the Israeli one on page 8. The information is all there for you - all 233 pages of it. Perhaps if Israel did not isolate Gaza and prevent access, the Hamas would have less reason to launch rockets. Chicken and egg. AFAIK, Hamas had a truce on offer when the blockade was started after Hamas was elected. There is a case to suggest that Israel started it. In any case, they are supposed to be mature and should find a non-violent way to end it.

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 123):
So who is the terrorist? I wonder what would your government do if some cities in Ireland are bombarded for 8 years.

Some cities in Ireland were bombarded for about 40 years, and according to your arguments, the UK would, in response have bombed Boston and New York for a start, perhaps Chicago too. There could have been civilian casualties, but really (as you say) those funding terrorism should not hide among the civilian population. Perhaps Washington should have been attacked to encourage the US government to enforce its THEN EXISTING laws. Of course they were enforced after the attacks on the WTC. Fair makes you think does it not????

As Jacobin's maps indicate, the Palestinians are not condemned to live in a Swiss cheese, they are restricted to the holes in the Swiss cheese - it would (apparently) not be appropriate to interrupt the communications for the occupiers.
 
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viaggiare
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:42 am



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 182):
A quick and certain path to peace is therefore available to Israel at any time.

What is the value of making concessions that will not change the threat of terrorist attacks, including (but obviously not limited to) the massive barrage of rockets and mortar shells launched from Gaza at southern Israel all the time?

Let's face it, those who are hostile to Israel would remain hostile even after a withdrawal from the Palestinian territories, since their issue is with the existence of Israel, not its borders.
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
baroque
Topic Author
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:43 am



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 183):
Oh, and one more thing...who voted the Hamas government in? When are we going to see the Palestinians protest against Hamas for turning their life into a living misery?

Do you have the least idea what you are proposing as a system for responding to governments that you do not like?

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 183):
By electing Hamas they have demonstrated no interest in peace. They had this coming.

Rephrase as required for many situations!! Sure you are not posting under a pseudonym? The policies definitely remind me of someone else.
 
jutes85
Posts: 1854
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:50 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:18 am

Wooooooo, round and round we go.

Only solution for this conflict is for Israel to go into Gaza with ground forces and eliminate the Hamas militant organization and anyone who supports them.

Israel isn't going anywhere people, get over it.
nothing
 
rlwynn
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:01 am

A better solution would be for the Arab countries to unte and strike back hard against Israel.
I can drive faster than you
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:05 am



Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 189):
A better solution would be for the Arab countries to unte and strike back hard against Israel.

And risk moving to the conflict to this level?

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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
rlwynn
Posts: 1468
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:09 am

I they are all stupid enough to do that then, bummer for them.
I can drive faster than you
 
jutes85
Posts: 1854
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:21 am



Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 189):
A better solution would be for the Arab countries to unte and strike back hard against Israel.

With what? Fighting Israel in a conventional war would be nothing more than committing suicide.
nothing
 
Gman94
Posts: 1167
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:39 am

Israel might actually be surprised if they acted like an honest peace broker rather then the local muscle. If they withdrew to 1967 borders and didn't control access in out of Palestine with an iron fist like most Palestinians want, groups like Hamas who want the destruction of Israel would be get more and more marginalised. But how Israel acts now just breeds more and more hatred amongst Palestinians and turns them to groups like Hamas. It's almost as if Israel want this cycle to continue so it can justify it's land grab and subjugation of a people that goes against any shred of decency.

The last thing Israel wants is a peaceful Palestinian people otherwise they would have to make concessions that Israel hasn't got the balls to deliver on with their religious nutjob settler faction, much easier for Israel to keep fighting and claim self defence and they don't have to give anything up.
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QANTAS077
Posts: 5196
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:46 am



Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 189):
A better solution would be for the Arab countries to unte and strike back hard against Israel.

not quite, the better solution is to turn off the oil flow for a while.
 
QXatFAT
Posts: 2336
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:49 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
it's that bombing the shit out of the Palestinians only makes things worse

And goes for the Palestinians going into Israel and doing the same via suicied bombers or rockets. Two way street.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 11):
There is only one solution. What is now called Israel has to be moved out to a different location and the Palestinians should be given their land back.

Never was the Palestinians to begin with. And I for one thing that is a stupid idea to move Israel as a NATION to some other remote place. Who are you gona boot out then? The people of Sudan? If you want to use the logic of it wasnt theres to begin with, why dont the Native Americans of the USA rise up and kick our butts and drive us back out. It wasnt ours to begin with. And lets let the barbarians of Germany kick out the Germans. Oh and lets let the native tribal people of South America, Central America and Papua New Guniea kill and beat up the citizens of those countries. Wasnt theres to begin with. It was all their land. Come on.

Quoting Oa260 (Reply 13):
I think Israel should be split into two and a separate Palestinian state be created and housing built and infrastructure paid for by the USA and other countries that have poured billions of $$ into Israel over the years.

And nothing would stop from all of this happening again. There will never be peace in the Middle East. They will still bomb and kill each other because of land.

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 45):
My government has obligation to keep the Israelis safe

 checkmark 

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 173):

You have got to be kidding me. Whos land was it before 1946 then?

Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 189):
A better solution would be for the Arab countries to unte and strike back hard against Israel.

Wow. Without words. Sounds like you might not want an Israel anymore because this will happen...

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 190):
And risk moving to the conflict to this level?

Exactly! All other nations would only leave it to this. Example, Iran.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
flexo
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:55 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:54 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 179):
I'll ask again: had Iran just killed 195 Israeli's, would the US have reacted the same way or would we wake up tomorrow to a war declaration by Israel, the US, the UN and the rest of the "civilised" world against Iran?

Well, if Israel let its citizens launch missiles on innocent Iranian women, children and men and instead of punishing them, they'd celebrating and rewarding them, then I would very much agree that Iran had a right to strike Israel just like Israel is now striking Palestine.

Palestininans obviously can't get their act together and put up a legal system that punishes criminals who commit terrorist attacks. So Israel NEEDS to take matters in its own hands.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 179):
I'm sick and tired of the double standards in this matter

That makes two of us.
 
cpd
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:16 am



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):
So, Hamas fires at times 80 missiles a day into Israel and that is some how OK with you guys?

This whole thing with Israel and Hamas is a dead end road. The international community must intervene to save each side from themselves. Even if both sides don't like the medicine dished out to them. If need be, intervene with a huge overwhelming response.

Otherwise this conflict will go around in circles for the next hundred years.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:49 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 166):
Getting old

Yes it is and you have not condemned the attacks on innocent Palestinians so far so it speaks volumes.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 169):
No pictures of the rockets or mortars falling on Israel? None of the injured or killed by those.

And what you seem to not be able to fathom is that a ''government'' supposedly democratic is murdering innocent civilians yesterday and today and that is the topic that we are discussing.

-------------------------------------

280 killed and 600 injured and they have blown up a Mosque ( another Military target )  Yeah sure

The slaughter continues .

Where are the Jewish leaders to speak out against these crimes? Is it acceptable in the Jewish religion to support these actions?
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:08 pm



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 195):
And goes for the Palestinians going into Israel and doing the same via suicied bombers or rockets. Two way street.

This is getting tiresome.

What you say is obviously true, but, and I'll say it for about the millionth time in this thread, I have not once suggested or even hinted otherwise. This habit of assuming that because a person condemns the kiling of civilians in Gaza by the Israeli government that they are therefore somehow condoning Palestinian terrorist assaults is just plain ridiculous and merely shows a total lack of understanding that people may not necessarily just be on one side or the other. You know, I for one am sick of the killing on both sides, but am simply of the opinion that more killing will not help one bit in the long run. I therefore think terrorist attacks are ok, is that it? Pure nonsense.
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