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baroque
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Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:21 pm

The air strikes are ongoing and of course the dispute remains unsettled.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801662.stm

Israeli jets have launched a second day of air attacks on the Gaza Strip, amid warnings that operations will continue until Hamas ends rocket fire from Gaza.

The first thread has been archived apparently due to length. The conflict is ongoing and it appears to be still a matter of considerable interest.

Interpreting the overall content:

1. Despair at the lack of a solution to relations between Gaza and Israel.

2. Agreement that rocket attacks by Hamas were provocative, and a body of opinion (perhaps not as widespread) that Israel has, nevertheless, been less than fully wise to respond with attacks that have left so many dead.

There were small minority views. Some of these may have been deleted.

Aspects that could receive further examination include:

1. The general degree of control over Gaza by Israel,

2. Reasons why the Egypt to Gaza border is usually closed, and

3. The effects of bombing Gaza on prospects for an overall settlement of the problem of a Palestinian state.

There were some excellent posts on matters of record. It might be useful if references were given to some of this material or parts were reposted in abbreviated form.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:36 pm

Not sure what to say about this.


It is a tragedy as usual on both sides. No one wins a battle of deaths.

1. I do think Hamas needs to grow up. They are not interested in real diplomacy.
2. The Palestinian Authority needs to reign in it's power. They should not expect a cease fire if they can't assert the authority to keep the Gaza side from firing rockets.
3. I don't think that the overwhelming show of force by Israel is going to help with the peace process. Perhaps the Palatinian Authority will try to reign in Hamas, but I doubt it.
4. The UN won't do anything, which is business as usual for them.
5. The strife will continue until at some point a dual state or some other diplomatic solution is worked out.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:46 pm



Quoting Baroque (Thread starter):
that Israel has, nevertheless, been less than fully wise to respond with attacks that have left so many dead.

That was the general view and the view in the majority of TV and Press reports I have watched and read this morning.

Quoting Baroque (Thread starter):
The effects of bombing Gaza on prospects for an overall settlement of the problem of a Palestinian state.

It actually makes people rally behind things they wouldn't normally. In a time of bombardment and attack people find themselves caught between what they believe is right and the need to survive.

Quoting Baroque (Thread starter):
There were some excellent posts on matters of record.

Yes notably the last post by Nav20 which was a really good post.
 
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:53 pm

Lets deal with solutions, and start with one main question, can Gaza be dealt with by itself being an independent territory - region - under Palestinian authority or must it be part of the wider Palestinian conflict?
If the latter, then nothing will change, it will be like Hezbollah in the north, look for some activity on the northern border the longer the conflict continues, Hezbollah mantra is that as long as their brethern remain under occupation the fight must go on.

If the former what is the main problem, Israel left Gaza 8 years ago, there are no settlements and no troops why were there incursions after the Israelis left? If Gaza becomes a peaceful enclave with a thriving economy after the Israeli withdrawal in whose best interest is that, the Hezbollah mantra is probably why there were incursions.

There are many out-side influences in both Israel and Palestine, until they recognize that they have to do what is in their best interest and less about what out-siders want, this conflict will continue. History has shown that a lot of conflicts are resolved in stages, even in the Middle East this has been the case, the entire Arab world was at war with Israel, at least two nations have commenced a stage solution and so far it is working, why can this not work for the Palestinians, what exactly is the 100% solution immediately in this conflict?
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:08 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 114):

You seem to be confusing a political comment with the notion of an attack on a particular ethnicity or religion, yet again abusing the cause of tackling racism and anti-semitism to slur those who hold valid political opinions based on the actions of a state against a repressed people.

Although there are many innocents among the Palestinians affected gravely through all the recent events, this should be considered before rationalizing that it's the "actions of a state against a repressed people" . . .

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 183):

Number of warnings from Hamas since the end of the truce till they started launching rockets into Israel: zero.
Number of warnings from Israel to stop rocket attacks: more than enough.

Springbok747 was spot on in his assessment of the two sides - which one was trying to provoke (or more) and which one was straining to maintain peace before having to act.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 114):
Right, so the historical actions of a country have to dictate the personal opinions of all of its citizens?

No, but it might help for him (and you, perhaps, among others) to understand that there was a sovereign authority in the land that gave opportunity for the Jews to have a homeland sovereign for themselves, some historical fact that seems to be oft-unmentioned among those who sympathize primarily with the plight of the Palestinians.

Quoting Baroque (Thread starter):
How about a source of information other than Gov of Israel?

How about some sources in addition to the one you gave in reply 54 of the previous thread? The Peel and Woodhead Commissions were rejected by British, Arabs - and, ultimately, Jews, too - there's nothing that indicates the British opposed having a Jewish state, which hopefully is nothing a reader will conclude after reading your link. If the British didn't want the Jews to have a homeland, then why issue the Balfour Declaration in the 1st place? Why would the the League of Nations care to recognize the Declaration word for word? And even though the British concluded that partitioning was impracticable in the late 30's, why wouldn't they then have voted against it then ten years later in November of 1947 instead of abstaining?
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Mortyman
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:22 pm



Quoting CasInterest (Reply 1):
The UN won't do anything, which is business as usual for them.

The UN won't do anything because the UN is not a United Nations anymore, but an organisation led by a few veto powers, that care more for their own agendas than looking for solutions.

I am convinced that the Israeli / Palestinian conflict can be solved, but it means that everyone, the Palestinians, the Israelis and the international community needs to swallow a few camels in order to get there.

It's got to be a fair and sincere deal that looks after each sides interests.


Persoanlly, I don't think that Israel and Palestine can come to an agreement on their own. They need help. A strong international community, including the Middle East region is needed.



Unfortunetly I feel that solving the Israeli / Palestinian conflict has been neglected in the last 8 years. Iraq and Afghanistan has taken the spotlight away from what is happening between Israel and Palestine. It's very unfortunete,because I beleave that solving this particulare conflict is one of the key's in winning the war on terror. As long as we let conflicts like these go on, the more people will become desperate and join terrorist organsiations. Desperate people are easy targets for such organisations. I beleave as long as we don't get this issue solved, our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan will not be fruitful.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:23 pm

Apparently Israel has called in 6500 reserves...
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:44 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 5):
I beleave as long as we don't get this issue solved, our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan will not be fruitful.

Thats quite correct. The key to Middle East peace is a just settlement of the Palestinian plight.
 
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:53 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 5):
Persoanlly, I don't think that Israel and Palestine can come to an agreement on their own. They need help. A strong international community, including the Middle East region is needed.

I tend to disagree, the international community has been there for many years and essentially nothing has been accomplished, when Anwar Sadat went to Israel, which international organization organized that, same for Jordan.

The UN has continued to force humanitarian supplies into Gaza via Israel, they can use the Rafah crossing and they refuse to do so, what is more important than providing humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza? The BBC web site now list a story that medical aid including ambulances are unsed at the Egyptian border, if true, why is that?

My belief is that those in Israel and Gaza want the same thing, to wake every morning without fear, to be able to work and provide for their families and indeed to have a family, I don't believe that they are any different. In the current environment, a peaceful Gaza is a danger to who?
 
Acheron
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:02 pm



Quoting CasInterest (Reply 1):
1. I do think Hamas needs to grow up. They are not interested in real diplomacy.

The best solution is to isolate Hamas by not giving the palestinians reasons to support and join them. These attacks will do completely the opposite.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 1):
4. The UN won't do anything, which is business as usual for them.

And what do you expect when even the most innocuous resolution against Israel gets vetoed by the US in the UN.
All the UN does is to have contests of who can veto more resolutions, thanks to a system that not even the US seems willing to overhaul.
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:35 pm



Quoting Acheron (Reply 9):
The best solution is to isolate Hamas by not giving the palestinians reasons to support and join them. These attacks will do completely the opposite.

Exactly. That's the pont some people fail to see. Some are saying that these actions are justified and that they will diminish terrorist threat, yet you are not realising that this will have the complete opposite effect.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 9):
And what do you expect when even the most innocuous resolution against Israel gets vetoed by the US in the UN

Again, the Israelo military and Hamas are the same thing, just that one has more weapons and has good friends in high places.
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baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:44 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 4):
Quoting Baroque (Thread starter):
How about a source of information other than Gov of Israel?

How about some sources in addition to the one you gave in reply 54 of the previous thread? The Peel and Woodhead Commissions were rejected by British, Arabs - and, ultimately, Jews, too - there's nothing that indicates the British opposed having a Jewish state, which hopefully is nothing a reader will conclude after reading your link. If the British didn't want the Jews to have a homeland, then why issue the Balfour Declaration in the 1st place? Why would the the League of Nations care to recognize the Declaration word for word? And even though the British concluded that partitioning was impracticable in the late 30's, why wouldn't they then have voted against it then ten years later in November of 1947 instead of abstaining?

What I wrote in that post was that: 33 to 13 with 10 abstentions including the UK

The US and the USSR influenced the UN to vote for partition. By the 1938 report, the UK had more or less worked out that giving Palestine to non residents was a recipe for disaster.


This is the case, it does not mean that there was a formal policy policy abbrogating the original Mandate. However, it was clear that there were severe misgivings about the practicality of any of the solutions, notwithstanding the rather glib words of the Foreign Sec quoted below.

In any case, you are supposing that the British government did not change its views between 1917 the time of the Balfour Declaration and 1948. They certainly did, and were considerably aided in that change of mind by having a vicious terrorist war waged against it by Zionist terrorist organizations.

Why did the UK get the US involved? Mostly because the US appears to have insisted on being involved - read the bit in Bevin's speech about India. It was also due in part to being hostage to the US through its bankrupt currency and debts to the US - the UK government basically had to agree to whatever the US government wanted at that time. There was never rationing of bread in the UK during WWII, but there was after it.

From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Commission
The report recommended that the Mandate be eventually abolished — except in a "corridor" surrounding Jerusalem, stretching to the Mediterranean Coast just south of Jaffa — and the land under its authority (and accordingly, the transfer of both Arab and Jewish populations) be apportioned between an Arab and Jewish states. The Jewish side was to receive a territorially smaller portion in the mid-west and north, from Mount Carmel to south of Be'er Tuvia, as well as the Jezreel Valley and the Galilee, while the Arab state was to receive territory in the south and mid-east which included Judea, Samaria and the sizable, though economically undeveloped and infertile, Negev desert.

And the UK response:
The British response was to set up the Woodhead Commission to "examine the Peel Commission plan in detail and to recommend an actual partition plan" [4] This Commission declared the Peel Commission partition unworkable (though suggesting a different scheme under which 5% of the land area of Palestine become Israel). The British Government accompanied the publication of the Woodhead Report by a statement of policy rejecting partition as impracticable

And how is partitiion going so far?????????? Does that make it more clear?

Bevin to HoC in 1945, before the terrorist attacks had become serious.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ce/History/bevin_on_palestine.html

The problem of Palestine is itself a very difficult one. The mandate for Palestine required the mandatory to facilitate Jewish immigration and to encourage close settlement by Jews on the land, while insuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced thereby. His Majesty's Government have thus a dual obligation, to the Jews on the one side and to the Arabs on the other.
.....
In dealing with Palestine all parties have entered into commitments. There are the commitments imposed by the mandate itself, and in addition the various statements of policy which have been made by His Majesty's Government in the course of the last twenty-five years. Further, the United States Government themselves have undertaken that no decision should be taken in respect to what, in their opinion, affects the basic situation in Palestine without full consultation with both Arabs and Jews. Having regard to the whole situation and the fact that it has caused this world-wide interest which affects both Arabs and Jews, His Majesty's Government decided to invite the Government of the United States to cooperate with them in setting up a joint Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, under a rotating chairmanship, to examine the question of European Jewry and to make a further review of the Palestine problem in the light of that examination. I am glad to be able to inform the House that the Government of the United States have accepted this invitation.
...

The House will realize that we have inherited, in Palestine, a most difficult legacy and our task is greatly complicated by undertakings, given at various times to various parties, which we feel ourselves bound to honor. Any violent departure without adequate consultation would not only afford ground for a charge of breach of faith against His Majesty's Government but would probably cause serious reactions throughout the Middle East and would arouse widespread anxiety in India.


For some information on the war between Britain and both Arab and Zionist terrorists from 1945 to 1948 see
http://www.counterpunch.org/fisk0903.html

This article is also a timely reminder that if friend Ahmadinejad does not appear to have a full understanding of what Hitler did, he shares that with the official Israeli view of the slaughter of Armenians by Turkey.
In other words, unlike the Jewish Holocaust museum--and the Jewish Holocaust itself, which would never be used by Israel to silence criticism of its cruel behaviour in the occupied territories--there might be something a bit dodgy about the Armenian version. Then comes the killer. "Washington already has one major institution, the United States Holocaust Museum, that documents an effort to destroy an entire people," Mr Kinzer wrote. "The story it presents is beyond dispute. But the events of 1915 are still a matter of intense debate." Are they hell, Mr Kinzer.
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:45 pm

FROM THE OTHER THREAD

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 179):
"I'll ask again: had Iran just killed 195 Israeli's, would the US have reacted the same way or would we wake up tomorrow to a war declaration by Israel, the US, the UN and the rest of the "civilised" world against Iran? "

"Well, if Israel let its citizens launch missiles on innocent Iranian women, children and men and instead of punishing them, they'd celebrating and rewarding them, then I would very much agree that Iran had a right to strike Israel just like Israel is now striking Palestine.

Palestininans obviously can't get their act together and put up a legal system that punishes criminals who commit terrorist attacks. So Israel NEEDS to take matters in its own hands."

Well, Israel does let its military launch missiles on innicent children, but anyway, you have failed to answer my question. When Israel bombed civilian targets in Lebanon the US did nothing, just like yesterday, just like today. If Iran says anything the US is quick in making harsh statements, threats, etc. Israel knows they can do whatever they want because they have the US and most of the west behind them.

Palestinians can't get their act together because they are not allowed to even try. The more prosperity in the region, the less reason for people to hate Israel. It's really not that hard. Keep choking the Palestinians, and retaliating out of proportion, and you'll keep adding suicide bombers because they have nothing else. They don't care about living or dying. If they would have a proper job, and food on their table, and be able to see their kids grow to a prosperous future, I can assure you that the terrorist will be reduced to almost nothing.

The thing is, I'm not so sure Israel wants this to end. I'm sure its citizens do, but the military ... for some reason I am suspicious that some in their armed forces have an interest in keeping conflicts ongoing.

[Edited 2008-12-28 08:55:08]
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RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:56 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 4):
Although there are many innocents among the Palestinians affected gravely through all the recent events, this should be considered before rationalizing that it's the "actions of a state against a repressed people" . . .

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 183):

Number of warnings from Hamas since the end of the truce till they started launching rockets into Israel: zero.
Number of warnings from Israel to stop rocket attacks: more than enough.

Springbok747 was spot on in his assessment of the two sides - which one was trying to provoke (or more) and which one was straining to maintain peace before having to act.

That's understood, but when it comes down to killing civilians because of terrorist actions it's all rather irrelevant in my opinion. Warn Hamas all all you like, doesn't help the citizens we saw with hideous injuries after the air strikes.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 4):
No, but it might help for him (and you, perhaps, among others) to understand that there was a sovereign authority in the land that gave opportunity for the Jews to have a homeland sovereign for themselves, some historical fact that seems to be oft-unmentioned among those who sympathize primarily with the plight of the Palestinians.

With respect, I understand that perfectly well and have stated nothing to suggest otherwise. I have in fact stated that because Israel is a recognised state that I hold it to higher standards of behaviour than terrorist organisations. I have likewise said that it is not necessarily a case of sympathising more with one side or the other, but of reacting to incidents such as the airstrikes seen yesterday and today. I am aware of fault and brutality on both sides, and the whole situation stinks, not just Israel or Hamas.
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windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:58 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 3):
Lets deal with solutions, and start with one main question, can Gaza be dealt with by itself being an independent territory - region - under Palestinian authority or must it be part of the wider Palestinian conflict?

I was wondering the same thing. Can Israel just make a seperate deal with Abbas on the West Bank which would then isolate Hamas in Gaza.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 5):
I am convinced that the Israeli / Palestinian conflict can be solved, but it means that everyone, the Palestinians, the Israelis and the international community needs to swallow a few camels in order to get there.

You are right. Both sides need to step up to the plate. It has to start somewhere.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 8):
The UN has continued to force humanitarian supplies into Gaza via Israel, they can use the Rafah crossing and they refuse to do so, what is more important than providing humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza? The BBC web site now list a story that medical aid including ambulances are unsed at the Egyptian border, if true, why is that?

Why are the UN and Arab countries not pouring in supplies on the Egyptian border?. Why are they not using the harbor? Is Israel going to risk a shooting war over legitimate items coming across these two sides? If Hamas would hold to a cease fire instead of poking the bull in the eyes every week would Israel open thing up? I think so. That has to be the first step. Recognize Israel, stop terrorism and in turn Israel opens the borders. Let things stabilize for awhile then get down to serious talks. Both sides have to get rid of the chip on their shoulder, swallow some pride and make the first steps. Like I said before put them both in front of an Arbitrator or something like a bankruptcy judge that is binding. If you step away or do not comply then the world will truly be against you.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:02 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 14):
I was wondering the same thing. Can Israel just make a seperate deal with Abbas on the West Bank which would then isolate Hamas in Gaza.

Nice idea, but it's not just Hamas in Gaza - it's a hell of a lot of people who hold a range of goals, views and loyalties.
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baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:09 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 14):
Why are the UN and Arab countries not pouring in supplies on the Egyptian border?

Because Israel and the US will not permit it.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 14):
Why are they not using the harbor?

Because Israel and the US will not permit it. Gives hoarse laugh. Any boat coming within 20 or 30 km will be sunk by Israel.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 14):
Is Israel going to risk a shooting war over legitimate items coming across these two sides?

Certainly. That is what they have indicated.

You must be forgetting the USS Liberty????
http://www.chicagotribune.com/servic...rty_tuesoct02,0,3737033,full.story
Lockwood was aboard the USS Liberty, a super-secret spy ship on station in the eastern Mediterranean, when four Israeli fighter jets flew out of the afternoon sun to strafe and bomb the virtually defenseless vessel on June 8, 1967, the fourth day of what would become known as the Six-Day War.

For Lockwood and many other survivors, the anger is mixed with incredulity: that Israel would attack an important ally, then attribute the attack to a case of mistaken identity by Israeli pilots who had confused the U.S. Navy's most distinctive ship with an Egyptian horse-cavalry transport that was half its size and had a dissimilar profile. And they're also incredulous that, for years, their own government would reject their calls for a thorough investigation.


And that was an ally!!!
 
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:12 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 12):
The thing is, I'm not so sure Israel wants this to end. I'm sure its citizens do, but the military ... for some reason I am suspicious that some in their have an interest in keeping conflicts ongoing.

That may be true of some elements within the Israeli military, but not the govt. in general, and thats the main difference between both sides. The Israeli military did not build tunnels to kidnap their own soldiers, and Gaza being so closed and run by Hamas, I'm not sure how much influence tha military has to instigate actions by the Palestinians against Israel to give reasons for this atack.

I said in the earlier thread, even if Israel did not like or recognize the Hamas elected govt. the rest of the world did, and the US, UN, EU, and other Arab nations lost a golden opertunity to better the lives of the Gaza people via the Rafah crossing. A resolution could have been passed turning the Rafah crossing over to UN supervision and trade and supplies could have gone to Gaza via that route and to hell with the Israel, but no one from the so called "civilized" world thought of or proposed the idea, is that because no one wants to see Hamas succeed? The wealthy Arab states have oil, they do not need the US money, so what is their reason?
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:15 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 16):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 14):
Why are they not using the harbor?

Because Israel and the US will not permit it. Gives hoarse laugh. Any boat coming within 20 or 30 km will be sunk by Israel.

Note the recent thread about the turning back of a Libyan ship carrying supplies (not going to get into a discussion over what may or may have not been on board, but instead of verifying that they just refused to allow it to pass).
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baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:27 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 17):
The wealthy Arab states have oil, they do not need the US money, so what is their reason?

Good question, in part they don't especially like Hamas, but even so a good question.

As for everyone else, we just do as the US tells us to do. Why do you think Sukarno got into so much trouble with the US back when he was all in favour of a non-aligned movement? Jalan Asia Afrika is still there in Bandung as a monument to that attempt to challenge the US way.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:41 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 6):
Apparently Israel has called in 6500 reserves...

Golani and Paratroopers? I think this Operation Cast Lead will end like Operation Phantom Fury in Fallujah, +1200 Iraqis dead, 95 US troops dead and 39 thousand houses partly or totally destroyed was the end result of that Operation.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:48 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 19):
As for everyone else, we just do as the US tells us to do.

As I stated earlier, the wealthy Arab nations have oil, which the world falls down over, if they decided to supply Gaza via the Egyptian border there would be no shooting war. Israel has show trust in the Egyptian govt. by truning the border over to them, sailing a ship towards Gaza knowing full well that it would be turned back was a symbolic gesture to score political browny points, they could have sailed the ship into an Egyptian port and have the supplies trucked into Gaza if the intention was to really supply the people of Gaza.

As for the USS Liberty incident, does that mean that Israel made a mistake and did not commence bombing the Sinai when the Libyan ship arrived? What exactly does the Liberty incident of numerous years ago have to do with the situation at hand, Egypt now controls the border with Gaza, Egypt is now at peace with Israel, so is Jordan, so do we now bring up the history of their wars to make a point, do we do this when Germany or Japan has a disagreement with the US?
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:06 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
By the 1938 report, the UK had more or less worked out that giving Palestine to non residents was a recipe for disaster.

Then they should have voted against it 9 years later - had the British vote been the way everyone went, their silence on the matter in November of 1947 would have basically resulted in each side determining for themselves the fate of the land. In other words, the UK didn't swing from openly supporting a sovereign land for Israel to openly opposing it - they went from openly supporting it to basically throwing their hands in the air - and implicitly allowing the Jews to a measure of self-determinism in the land.
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:06 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 21):
As I stated earlier, the wealthy Arab nations have oil, which the world falls down over

Hmm theres an interesting slant. Certain Western powers dictate who can have spare airline parts and who cant. Maybe the Oil producers in the Middle East should team together and dictate who they sell oil to and who they will not. It would certainly turn tables and focus peoples minds.
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:09 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 21):
As I stated earlier, the wealthy Arab nations have oil, which the world falls down over, if they decided to supply Gaza via the Egyptian border there would be no shooting war. Israel has show trust in the Egyptian govt. by truning the border over to them,

I agree with you on this

Quoting Par13del (Reply 21):
What exactly does the Liberty incident of numerous years ago have to do with the situation at hand,

Nothing? Just another lame point to make Israel look bad

Quoting Par13del (Reply 21):
Egypt now controls the border with Gaza, Egypt is now at peace with Israel, so is Jordan, so do we now bring up the history of their wars to make a point, do we do this when Germany or Japan has a disagreement with the US?

And America is paying the Egyptians, Israelis and Jordanians good money to keep the peace. Israel is not going to start a shooting over legitimate supplies brought in by other Arab countries via the Egyptian border. If no more missiles get laynched while the process goes on then the Israelis will have to live with that situation.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 19):
As for everyone else, we just do as the US tells us to do

Whatever. Maybe if the Brits had kept their colonial paws off of the M.E in the first place we then would not be in this position now. The latest fad seems to blame the US for all of the troubles in the M.E. But the roots of the British Empire have been there far longer and are much deeper than our's.
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:11 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 23):
Maybe the Oil producers in the Middle East should team together and dictate who they sell oil to and who they will not. It would certainly turn tables and focus peoples minds

No it would not. They need to sell it just as much as we need to buy it. What will they do if they do not sell any oil. They are already bleeding with the oil prices so low. Aircraft parts are not our lifeblood. Oil is for them
 
SkyyKat
Posts: 141
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:18 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 23):
Maybe the Oil producers in the Middle East should team together and dictate who they sell oil to and who they will not. It would certainly turn tables and focus peoples minds.

That would be a great Idea but all those countries would become the next Iraq.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 24):
Whatever. Maybe if the Brits had kept their colonial paws off of the M.E in the first place we then would not be in this position now.

Of course, you are 100% right. But now we have to deal with reality today, not who did what and what caused who. This whole blame thing is the reason this whole mess is happening.

The blame needs to be dropped for there to be a peaceful solution. And as long as the west supports one side that blame will be there and fighting will continue.
 
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:21 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 23):
Maybe the Oil producers in the Middle East should team together and dictate who they sell oil to and who they will not. It would certainly turn tables and focus peoples minds.

No need to get that extreme, my point is that if the OPEC nations say to the UN that they want Gaza to be supplied via the Egyptian Border under UN supervision rather than Israel they likely would not be any outrage or objection, you know the saying, the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Present situation now means that the border with Israel will be open for one way traffic only, retaliation stronger than unguided rockets will have to enter Israel via the West Bank, so the border is going to get even tighter, who will now be responsible for the suffering?

In reading a lot of the recent news articles, everyone seems to be saying that Hamas also bears some responsibility, times have certainely changed, looks like everyone is now growing up politically, now if only there were more protestation before the bombing started, everyone abhors the violence, unfortunately until it happens no one wants to do anything.
 
na
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:55 pm

I certainly do not accept everything Israel does, because many of the bad things happening has their root in Israels policy as much as in Palestinian misbehavior. Unless the Palestinans cannot live decently and not like in an enclosed rather small area there will always be trouble. The settlement policy of Israel in the areas conquered in 1967 is a clear sign that Israel wants to keep it. Its a choatic chessboard that cannot be reversed without much pain.
That said, of cause Israel cannot and should not accept terrorism.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 9):
The best solution is to isolate Hamas by not giving the palestinians reasons to support and join them. These attacks will do completely the opposite.

How? By accepting Hamas to kill on and on until in 5 or 10 years it might happen?
Hamas is a terrorist organisation hiding in the middle of the Palestinian people. They are not staying in barracks separated from the towns and villages. They are no heroes fighting in the open, they are villains living and hiding among women and children. Trying to kill some of them always kills innocent people too, thats the strategy of Hamas and exposes their ruthlessness even more.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 12):
"I'll ask again: had Iran just killed 195 Israeli's, would the US have reacted the same way or would we wake up tomorrow to a war declaration by Israel, the US, the UN and the rest of the "civilised" world against Iran? "

If Iran would continuously bombard Israel, yes. But Iran doesnt, so the comparison is mute.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 12):
Well, Israel does let its military launch missiles on innicent children

I guess you get something completely wrong here. Its clear that reality is the opposite, with sad exceptions, I agree. War knows no absolute right or wrong. Isnt it the Hamas shooting rockets on innocent Israelis all the time? The Hamas is hiding amongst innocent Palestinians, thats why so many of them get killed when Israel tries to kill Hamas. As said before, its the ruthless strategy of these Hamas terrorists because they know that pictures of dead women and children help them. Hamas is extremely cynical. Btw, some prominent Hamas leaders have been killed already. I´ve not heard that Hamas has attacked a single one who they think is responsible for the attacks. Its the Hamas which indeed kill the innocent, because they want to kill the innocent: The Hamas rockets are aimed at Israeli civilian settlements, the suicide murderers kill cilvilians. Last but not least: the Palestinian president himself says the Israeli attack is the fault of Hamas´ provocations.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:00 pm

Isn't it funny?

Hamas bombs Israel with rockets. What is the response of most of the world?


Silence.


Israel defends itself, and the world goes bonkers. I'll side with Israel and their right to defend themselves from such attacks.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:03 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 28):
ruthless strategy of these Hamas terrorists because they know that pictures of dead women and children help them

So why play into their hands by obliging them? You talk as though Israel didn't know that they would kill civilians and that Hamas played some kind of dastardly trick on them by lurking amongst the wider population. Gaza is so crowded that there is virtually nowhere that is not near civilians anyway. I feel sure they knew exactly what would happen when they launched these raids.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
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viaggiare
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:07 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 24):

And America is paying the Egyptians, Israelis and Jordanians good money to keep the peace.

An interesting tidbit is that U.S. aid has shrunk as a percentage of Israeli GDP to under 2% these days (from about 20% of their GDP back in the seventies) meaning Israel’s dependence on the U.S. has in fact plummeted.
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:17 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):
Isn't it funny?

Hamas bombs Israel with rockets. What is the response of most of the world?


Silence.

That's a view expressed in this and often the last thread in an attempt to diminish the atrociousness of the current situation. However, I don't believe it is accurate to say nobody reacts. I have read many news reports about Palestinian terrorist attacks and my government and many others have spoken against them many times. It is simply not true to say that nobody takes any notice.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
SkyyKat
Posts: 141
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:21 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):
Isn't it funny?

Hamas bombs Israel with rockets. What is the response of most of the world?

I have no idea what what you are talking about, I see reports almost everyday about Hamas attacks on Israel.

The reason this was such big news is the huge body count. If Hamas killed 200 Israelis in one strike you bet your ass it would be HUGE news around the world.

And no, this is not funny  Yeah sure
 
na
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:22 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
So why play into their hands by obliging them? You talk as though Israel didn't know that they would kill civilians and that Hamas played some kind of dastardly trick on them by lurking amongst the wider population.

Because the cynical Hamas gives them no other chance.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):
Isn't it funny?

Hamas bombs Israel with rockets. What is the response of most of the world?

Silence.

Israel defends itself, and the world goes bonkers. I'll side with Israel and their right to defend themselves from such attacks.

Well said.
Its only the suicide murderers of Hamas who get wide coverage. Thats why Hamas calls for that "strategy" now again. Another proof there is no doubt that Hamas is the truly evil in this game.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:22 pm



Quoting SkyyKat (Reply 33):
The reason this was such big news is the huge body count. If Hamas killed 200 Israelis in one strike you bet your ass it would be HUGE news around the world.

And, because Israel is 'defending itself' against terrorist attacks by attacking a city in a way practically guaranteed to kill civilians.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
SkyyKat
Posts: 141
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:29 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 34):
Well said.

Do you have more than one source for you news?

Quoting NA (Reply 34):
Another proof there is no doubt that Hamas is the truly evil in this game.

Hamas is, and so is the Israeli Military. Palestinians and Israelis are not. And this is not a game its a useless war, every time one side attacks the other it perpetrates a retaliation from the side that was attacked, its like induced vibration and it will just keep getting worse.

So obviously constant retaliations are not working and are killing scores of civilians on both sides. As soon as people like you stop supporting the Israeli Military actions unequivocally we might see better solutions put on the table.

As soon as we get rid of the moronic "Israel has the right to protect itself" Attitude. Of course it does, but so does Palestine. I have a better thought "Israeli and Palestinian citizens have a right to live and not be slaughtered because of uncivil political BS that comes from both sides."
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:34 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 28):
I guess you get something completely wrong here. Its clear that reality is the opposite, with sad exceptions, I agree. War knows no absolute right or wrong. Isnt it the Hamas shooting rockets on innocent Israelis all the time? The Hamas is hiding amongst innocent Palestinians, thats why so many of them get killed when Israel tries to kill Hamas. As said before, its the ruthless strategy of these Hamas terrorists because they know that pictures of dead women and children help them. Hamas is extremely cynical. Btw, some prominent Hamas leaders have been killed already. I´ve not heard that Hamas has attacked a single one who they think is responsible for the attacks. Its the Hamas which indeed kill the innocent, because they want to kill the innocent: The Hamas rockets are aimed at Israeli civilian settlements, the suicide murderers kill cilvilians. Last but not least: the Palestinian president himself says the Israeli attack is the fault of Hamas´ provocations.

Sir, again, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Israel is not. What is pissing off a lot of people is that Israel attacks in the same manner as a terrorist organization. No one is denying Hamas are a bunch of aholes, they are terrorist, they need to be crushed. But what Israel did will not crush them, but on the contrary, feed them for the future. Israel just gave them a good excuse to et them convinve people that blowing eachother up is a good thing. We knoe it's BS, but they don't. If Israel would treat palestines like people, Hamas would lose any recruitment power.
Israeli military is too strong and technologically perfect to kill hundreds of civilians. If Israel would be a terrorist organization, ok, but they are a country, a sovreign state, yet they act in just the same way like Hamas. Thay have to be the bigger side here and do the most they can to end this conflist, yet they act like terrorists. That is why I think both sides are to blame for all this.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:41 pm



Quoting SkyyKat (Reply 33):
If Hamas killed 200 Israelis in one strike you bet your ass it would be HUGE news around the world.

BINGO !! Now we are getting somewhere. If it was 200 Israelis they would be beaming it all over our screens 24/7 and calling it Israels 9/11 . We saw it in the Mumbai attacks . Because its Palestinians somehow its ''acceptable''.
 
ly001
Posts: 51
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:50 pm

Israel has all the right to defend it self from the hamas terror organization which declares that he wants to vanish the state of Israel. they don't want negotiation, they don't want peace and you can ask them. most of the people killed in the attack are terrorist with uniforms or with out uniforms and civilians which are supporting the terror organization of hamas by providing them shelters. yes i know, there are accidentally some Innocent people killed and we are sorry for that.
Israel went out from Gaza 3 years ago, there is not even one Israeli in Gaza except the kidnapped soldier gilad ahalit, and what we got? a terror organization that takes all the money to built and provide weapons to hit civilians in Israel instead of investing the money in the Palestinians people and their future.
the Palestinians don't miss any opportunity to miss building them self a normal life.
you all can write what ever you want here and blame Israel for everything, it's easy for you when you are sitting in your quite town and the biggest explosion you have ever heard was when your wife accidentally broke a glass. i wonder how your government will react if for the last 3 years your daily life would include getting hit by 3000 rockets. and don't tell me sit down and talk because you can't talk with hamas!!!! they don't believe in Israel right to live.
 
na
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:54 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 37):
That is why I think both sides are to blame for all this.

Of cause both are to blame. As I said, in a war there is no absolute right or wrong. Its an endless chain when uncontolled violence continues to be allowed to exist. Its Israel which stopped from time to time, only to learn that the other side does not want to.
What must be said, is that Israels attack is the reaction of a state under constant attack. Hamas is a terrorist group which obviously cannot be controlled by the state they are operating from.
What should Israel do in your opinion? Allow Hamas to fire rockets on its cilvilian population on and on? What other chance does Israel have to exterminate Hamas than attack their buildings? Friendly words, retreat, giving them big money? Hamas, that appears to be the Israeli belief, does not want to stop. To completely destroy them though is almost impossible, espeially without a very big operation.
Guerilla or Partisan war is the worst war imaginable, and terrorists are one version, the worst version of it.

Quoting SkyyKat (Reply 36):

Quoting NA (Reply 34):
Well said.

Do you have more than one source for you news?

What do you mean?
 
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viaggiare
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:59 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 40):
Its an endless chain when uncontrolled violence continues to be allowed to exist.

Ancient tribal conflicts suck. Taking sides in them is even worse.
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:59 pm



Quoting Ly001 (Reply 39):
Israel has all the right to defend it self

And we keep telling you that yes you do but you as a sovereign nation also have the responsibility to protect civilian life and not to act disproportionately.

Bombing innocent civillians makes you no better than the terrorists and we keep hearing about how Israel is supposed to be somehow better than them?
 
SkyyKat
Posts: 141
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:03 pm



Quoting Ly001 (Reply 39):
and don't tell me sit down and talk because you can't talk with hamas!!!!

So as an Israeli, do you really believe that the current actions of the Israeli Military will lead to peace? If you do you are naive. I understand your anger being in the situation you are in, but you have to take both sides into consideration and what the best outcome for everyone would be.

Your last Prime Minister was and still is wanted in Belgium for crimes against humanity, Israeli Government and Military are not without fault or guilt in this situation. It is sad the the civilians from both sides are stuck in the middle.

Israeli forces are the ones with the power in this conflict, but as far as I am concerned lack severe rational thought in conflict resolution. Hamas is completely useless and yes you cant talk to them. But constant air strikes give them more recruits and sympathy, Israel is shooting itself in the foot over and over again and Israeli citizens are paying the price and will continue doing so unless then come up with another solution.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:07 pm



Quoting Ly001 (Reply 39):
most of the people killed in the attack are terrorist with uniforms or with out uniforms and civilians which are supporting the terror organization of hamas by providing them shelters

Especially the kids, I expect. Damn those kids and their stubborn political alliegances.

But seriously, do you have anything to substantiate your claims that the civilians killed were willingly sheltering Hamas? Or, the numbers of 'terrorists without uniforms'? Not trying to bait you there, I am genuinely interested to know if more detailed figures on the nature of the casualties are available.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
jutes85
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:08 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 42):
Bombing innocent civillians makes you no better than the terrorists and we keep hearing about how Israel is supposed to be somehow better than them?

Start doing air strikes in built up areas, even with smart bombs there is bound to be civilian casualties, that's WAR and the nature of the beast. Remember these civilian casualties are not deliberate, and are not the targets. Don't be so naive or misled, think with your brain not your heart.

The Israelis are using the perfect method to deal with Hamas - military force. Note that most Arab governments have blamed the Israeli response on Hamas. They broke their own truce by lobbing 200 rockets into Israel last week. Israel thinks they have taken out half of Hamas' stockpile of rockets. The best way to procede is with a ground invasion.

[Edited 2008-12-28 12:10:29]
nothing
 
ly001
Posts: 51
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:09 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 42):
Bombing innocent civillians makes you no better than the terrorists and we keep hearing about how Israel is supposed to be somehow better than them?

the difference is that hamas is aiming all his rockets on civilians. all those rockets were aimed at Israeli towns and cities.
Israel is aiming on the terrors which in this case are hiding in civilians places and getting shelters by those civilians. we do the minimum to hit civilians but unfortunately it is almost impossible in this case.
we do not want to hit civilians
 
Falcon84
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:10 pm



Quoting SkyyKat (Reply 33):
I have no idea what what you are talking about, I see reports almost everyday about Hamas attacks on Israel.

I'm not talking about reports on it! I'm talking about the voices wanting the UN to condemn Israel FOR DEFENDING ITSELF. Where is the condemnation of Hamas, who, again, is trying to torpedo, literally, chances at peace? Syria has broken off talks with Israel over this. Hamas has gotten exactly what it wanted.

But where the hell is the outcry against what started this, the Hamas rocket attacks?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
na
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:14 pm



Quoting Ly001 (Reply 39):
they don't believe in Israel right to live.

That is a key word.
All who critisize Israel, first answer yourself this question:
If there is someone threatening your life, denying you to live in peace, terrorizing you all day, denying talks, gun in hand, and no police is there to help you. What would you do? Wait for the bullet, or fight?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 38):
Because its Palestinians somehow its ''acceptable''.

The death of Hamas terrorists is indeed acceptable. Many of those killed are not innocent that Im sure and the reports are accordingly, many were Hamas fighters and their leaders, and many of the rest certainly civilians these cynics were hiding between or were even supportng them. Nobody can deny that Hamas is part of the Palestinian society and many civilians support them. That also absolutely innocent are dead is a sad reality of war. But I doubt that the majority killed was as harmless as you try to say. The Israeli attacks are against Hamas installations and police stations, that you can see clearly in TV, like the Hamas attacks are against civilian settlements.
I´m not saying that Israel is fully right, but certainly the Hamas is wrong.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:16 pm



Quoting Ly001 (Reply 46):
hamas is aiming all his rockets on civilians

Terrorists.

Quoting Ly001 (Reply 46):
Israel

a supposedly responsible government

Quoting Ly001 (Reply 46):
aiming on the terrors

who they know 100% are in the same place as civilians that WILL be taken out as well in air strikes.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈

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