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Falcon84
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:41 am



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 99):
As I said in the last thread, it is nice to see most Americans in these forums not participating in the knee-jerk anti-Israel talk that the rest of the world engages in so freely and disgracefully.

Sadly, most of the rest of the world still hates the Jews, ergo, their views on this conflict.
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NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:42 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 97):
Are you denying that Israel has a right to defend itself

I don't think you're reading what I've said, Falcon84.

Israel has the right to defend itself, but the accepted doctrine is that the response has to be 'proportionate.'

If Israel put special forces in to ambush the rocket crews I'd have no quarrel with it. But bombing the daylights out of the infrastructure of the Gaza Strip (what's left of it) and killing large numbers of innocent civilians, including women and children, is way out of line.

Years back a mate of mine had a knee smashed by machinegun fire in Northern Ireland. What made it particularly poignant was that he was a cavalryman and lived for only two things - the army, and horses; and he was immediately 'finished with' both of them. But he was lucky that he was out of the trench and standing up - the other two guys got it in the head..........

Those shots were fired from within the Irish Republic, from an M60 machinegun supplied to the Provisional IRA by 'IRA sympathisers' in the USA.

That leads to two questions to which I'd be grateful for 'honest' answers from you:-

1. After that incident, would Britain have been justified in 'defending itself' by bombing Dublin? Or New York City?

2. Had Britain done so, would such action have been likely to diminish or increase support for the Provos in the Irish Republic and the USA?

Maybe even a third question:-

3. Was the German destruction of Lidice justified on grounds of them having been intent on 'defending themselves'? Or was it an atrocity and a war crime?
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:54 am



Quoting NA (Reply 76):
Do you disagree with the fact that Israel aims at terrorists FIRST, while Hamas at civilians FIRST?

Absolutely. But Hamas is the terrorist group here, not the country that should know better.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 86):
Wrong. Hamas exists for one reason: to destroy Israel. That's the only reason.

Yes, the core of it is that, but by killing palestinian children you feed people that might have just had no sympathy for Israel into potential terrorists. Give the people food, and they won't turn into radicals.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 95):
Palistine is a huge part in this conflict. If the people who do not support Hamas sit on their arses and do nothing, they can expect to continue to get bombed by Israel

What do you expect these people to do? They have no jobs, no future, their kids are starving, and they can't even leave. So what else but sit on their arses can they do?

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 99):
As I said in the last thread, it is nice to see most Americans in these forums not participating in the knee-jerk anti-Israel talk that the rest of the world engages in so freely and disgracefully.

So Americans can't be critical of Israel?
I am not anti Israel, and by no means am I pro Hamas or any other terrorist group. I am against the excessive use of of force by a country, and I am against the double standards the west has on this issue.

I used Iran as an example before, but let's use Hamas ... would they be able to kill 20 Israeli's, how would the west react?
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Falcon84
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:54 am



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 101):
Israel has the right to defend itself, but the accepted doctrine is that the response has to be 'proportionate.'

What do you consider proportioate? Simply this engagement, or the accumulation of aggression that Hamas keeps piling on Israel, year after year after year? I take the latter.

And if someone throws a Molotov at your house, and injures your child, are you really going to worry about being "proportionate"? No-you're going to go kick the living shit out of the person who did it. If they keep doing it, and keeps injuring you and yours, then you kick the shit out of them until they CAN'T hurt you anymore.
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drgreen757
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:56 am



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 101):
Israel has the right to defend itself, but the accepted doctrine is that the response has to be 'proportionate.'

So lets say if you punch me once, I'm only allowed to punch you back one time with the same amount of force? I think not. I'm going to punch you back as many times as it takes so you're never able to punch me again. The same applies here. Don't attack someone if your not ready to suffer the consequences.
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drgreen757
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:58 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 102):
And if someone throws a Molotov at your house, and injures your child, are you really going to worry about being "proportionate"? No-you're going to go kick the living shit out of the person who did it. If they keep doing it, and keeps injuring you and yours, then you kick the shit out of them until they CAN'T hurt you anymore.

That's what I'm talkin about!
Save the grey ghosts.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:58 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 103):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 86):
Wrong. Hamas exists for one reason: to destroy Israel. That's the only reason.

Yes, the core of it is that, but by killing palestinian children

Don't you get it? Hamas WANTS Palestinian children killed! The anger fueled by it only gives them more power. They don't give a rats' ass about the civilians who die. As far as they're concerned, they're fodder for the fight to destroy Israel.

That is the point most of those on here who are always anti-Israel just don't get: Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, al Qaeda-they WANT to see Arabs die, so they can keep up the hatred agaisnt Israel.
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Acheron
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:58 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 98):
Responding with strength and superior firepower=Smart

No, is the most stupid thing to do in an area dense in civilians. The Smart thing to do would be to send Special Forces into the area and take the out the Hamas groups in there.

I seriously doubt that Israel with the intelligence services it has, is not able to locate even the guy who just fires the damn thing, thus thinking that bombing the entire place is the best "solution".

I just simply doubt that the famed Mossad or the Shabak are that useless.
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:23 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 102):
What do you consider proportioate?

I gave an example, Falcon84:-

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 101):
If Israel put special forces in to ambush the rocket crews I'd have no quarrel with it.

As it happens, that's exactly what the British did in Ireland.

Any answers to my questions on the horizon?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 101):
. After that incident, would Britain have been justified in 'defending itself' by bombing Dublin? Or New York City?

2. Had Britain done so, would such action have been likely to diminish or increase support for the Provos in the Irish Republic and the USA?

Maybe even a third question:-

3. Was the German destruction of Lidice justified on grounds of them having been intent on 'defending themselves'? Or was it an atrocity and a war crime?



Quoting Drgreen757 (Reply 104):
So lets say if you punch me once, I'm only allowed to punch you back one time with the same amount of force?

Sure you can use 'the same amount of force,' Drgreen757. What you can't do is pull out a gun and shoot me.

Or, as Israel seems to be doing, take the gun over to a different town and shoot the first hundred people you see......
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
KSYR
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:45 am

Its good to see Israel finally taking a stand for itself once again.

For those of you who are all caught up in the body count, try to think about this reasonably. Yes, the rocket attacks this week have killed but one Israeli. But every rocket launched has the potential to kill several, and hundreds upon hundreds have been launched into Israeli towns. There is a huge psychological factor that this creates. Basically, Israelis in these targeted areas can't feel safe anywhere, ever. There a rockets raining down on them, and they have no clue if one will have their name on it. No country can allow its citizens to live in such a state of fear, and drastic actions had to be taken to ensure Israeli security.

You can get away with poking a sleeping lion once or twice. Keep it up, however, and he will wake up and maul the living shit out of you.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 103):
What do you expect these people to do? They have no jobs, no future, their kids are starving, and they can't even leave. So what else but sit on their arses can they do?

They can start by getting rid of their terrorist government.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:57 am



Quoting Acheron (Reply 107):
No, is the most stupid thing to do in an area dense in civilians.

You worry about your civilians first-fuck the other side.

Sorry, but that's the rule of warfar-protect your own first. Let the other side deal with what they have to deal with.  Yeah sure

Quoting Acheron (Reply 107):
I seriously doubt that Israel with the intelligence services it has, is not able to locate even the guy who just fires the damn thing, thus thinking that bombing the entire place is the best "solution".

You don't know squat about warfare, then, if you think it's that easy. If it were that easy, Osama bin Laden would be a pile of ashes by not. But it's not that easy. Easy for you to say in the comfort of your own home, and not being there. Get a clue.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 108):
e you can use 'the same amount of force,' Drgreen757. What you can't do is pull out a gun and shoot me.

Bull. If you've thrown Molotov after Molotov at my place, and you just don't get the message, then, yes, I am going to shoot you dead. Sorry, but warfare isn't fought like that. It's the survival of the strongest. And if you aren't strong enough, then maybe you shouldn't have picked the fight in the first place.
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rjpieces
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:16 am

Meanwhile, from most news reports, it appears that a clear majority of those killed were members of Hamas, and not innocent civilians.
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baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:55 am



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 111):
Meanwhile, from most news reports, it appears that a clear majority of those killed were members of Hamas, and not innocent civilians.

And from where do those news reports come?

I think you are too hasty to judge. Haartetz talks about "Disinformation, secrecy and lies: How the Gaza offensive came about " before the attacks. What makes you think matters have altered????
 
Springbok747
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:10 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 105):
Don't you get it? Hamas WANTS Palestinian children killed! The anger fueled by it only gives them more power. They don't give a rats' ass about the civilians who die. As far as they're concerned, they're fodder for the fight to destroy Israel.

Bingo! As far as Hamas is concerned, all this bloodshed is good PR because most of the world sees Israel as the evil Zionist state that is killing innocent civilians. What they don't know is how long the Israelis put up with rockets being fired everyday before they decided to act. Frankly, I am surprised the Israelis kept quiet for so long.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 107):
The Smart thing to do would be to send Special Forces into the area and take the out the Hamas groups in there.

Who is Hamas? Everyone looks the same, and those cowards will probably use women and children to carry out their dirty work for them. So how do the Special forces know who Hamas is...and who the innocent people are? If they identify those women and children as Hamas, and kill them, then we all know what would happen...the whole bloody world would be up in arms against Israel. The idea of sending special forces is ridiculous...it wouldn't achieve anything. Hamas need to be completely isolated and crushed...and I say again... the Palestinian population had this coming, by voting for Hamas they showed they're not interested in peace, and they'll have to deal with the consequences.
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QXatFAT
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:52 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 105):
That is the point most of those on here who are always anti-Israel just don't get: Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, al Qaeda-they WANT to see Arabs die, so they can keep up the hatred agaisnt Israel.

Point on! They will do whatever it takes to keep Arabs against them just like they are doing to show the Great Satan (America) as the people to kill. That is why they do not want us leaving Iraq or Afgahnistan. They will not pull back off of Israel until it is whipped off this earth. Any peace treaties signed will never stand. They will once again attack Israel until it is gone. Israel will never leave.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 103):

Read on and you will see. Dont just stop at the last word you quoted.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 108):
Sure you can use 'the same amount of force,' Drgreen757. What you can't do is pull out a gun and shoot me.

All I am seeing in this instance is missle for missle. One just does more damage than the other which is just fine. I know if I ever got in a fight, I am gona do what it takes to win. Now in a fist fight its not to kill the other person. In this case, Hamas' goal is to kill them so how do you react? You obveusly do not leave the invitation open to keep on killing because you want Europeans to be happy with you.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:41 am



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 113):
I am surprised the Israelis kept quiet for so long.

Very Similiar situation faced by India too.....all the more serious after 26/11.
Military strikes is an option with no assistance from pakistan to curb those terror training camps located amongst madrassas with children.
An Airstrike could lead to serious civilian hits & no action would only continue those cross border attacks.
regds
MEL
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RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:48 am



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 95):
Your only reaction may be to read it and say Hmmm and thats about it.

And you are basing such a wicked assumption about my morality on what precisely? Oh right, nothing - because there is no such information here to make such a claim.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 86):
Rule #1 in war: civilians WILL die. It's tragic, but stop trying to make it sound like it doesn't happen. It does, in every war.

War? Anti-terrorist operations. Also, with all the resources at their disposal, the blunt object that is airstrikes just seems to be asking for civilian casualties. It should not be ok to just shrug one's shoulders and say 'it's a pity, but people die in wars'.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 83):
How exactly was/is Israel to respond?

Maybe by killing terrorists and not a mixture of terrorists and civilians?

Quoting Par13del (Reply 82):
Unless I'm missing something, Hamas fighters led a revolt and evicted all other armed groups from Gaza, including the PLO, so now we are saying that Hamas does not have complete control of events in Gaza, not sure I subscribe to that idea.

Armed groups?? I'm talking about the fact that people have to live there!
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Gman94
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:07 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 100):
Sadly, most of the rest of the world still hates the Jews, ergo, their views on this conflict.

No most of the world does not hate the Jews but most of us outside of the US apparently have a bit of decency and don't like anyone getting killed and don't like how repeatedly Israel uses a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

We also don't take each event that happens in Israel/Palestine in isolation, it seems most Americans think this all started recently when Hamas started firing rockets at Israel. I tell you what we'll come and steal your land, do some ethnic cleansing, build a big wall round the tiny bit of pathetic land that we left you, blockade your land and then slaughter a few hundred of you when some of your fellow countrymen have the audacity to put up a bit of fight against us. Your telling me that in this situation you wouldn't fight with any means that you had at your disposal? I would find it very hard to believe that you would just accept it, for starters all you Yanks would still be British if you didn't put up a fight against perceived injustices.

As I said in the original thread Israel has no interest in peace with Palestine. A peaceful Palestine would mean Israel would lose any moral high ground that it still has and would face increased pressure to make concessions to Palestine which would incite the Zionist extremists within Israel. Easier for Israel to keep stirring the hornets nest so that it has to give up nothing.
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NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:36 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 100):
Sadly, most of the rest of the world still hates the Jews, ergo, their views on this conflict.

What does the subject have to do with Jews, Falcon84?

If I criticise the Irish Government for its ambivalent role during the recent 'Troubles' in NI (which I do), does that mean that I 'hate Catholics'? If I criticise the government of Burma ('Myanmar") for their appalling human rights record, does that mean that I 'hate Buddhists'?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:00 am



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 117):
No most of the world does not hate the Jews



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 118):
What does the subject have to do with Jews, Falcon84?

 checkmark 
It's merely a convenient subject to bring to the table to help justify outrageous acts of barbarism. Unless somebody really was stupid or ignorant to make an anti-Jewish attack in this thread, which I don't believe they have, we should leave this kind of crap out of this discussion at all costs, as it is simply not relevant or justified.
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lewis
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:05 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 100):
Sadly, most of the rest of the world still hates the Jews, ergo, their views on this conflict.

Sadly, many people around the world mix religion with nationality in the case of Israel no matter what the context of the discussion/comments. I know from Jewish friends that they consider themselves Jewish first and any nationality as second but this is not the way of thinking that we all share.

What you are saying might be still true (I would replace "most" with "many people") but it has nothing to do with the discussion here as well as its participants, unless you can prove the opposite.

[Edited 2008-12-29 02:06:53]
 
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yowza
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:29 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 24):
Whatever. Maybe if the Brits had kept their colonial paws off of the M.E in the first place we then would not be in this position now. The latest fad seems to blame the US for all of the troubles in the M.E. But the roots of the British Empire have been there far longer and are much deeper than our's.

You're joking right? Please tell me you don't actually believe the situation in the region is entirely the fault of the POMs... The Brits a properly screwed up in a few places but to shift all the blame for this on them is nothing short of ludicrous. Do you have any idea how long US commercial entities have been in the region? Perhaps you should sniff around on that before you start mudslinging...

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 25):
No it would not. They need to sell it just as much as we need to buy it. What will they do if they do not sell any oil. They are already bleeding with the oil prices so low. Aircraft parts are not our lifeblood. Oil is for them

The only ones amongst "them" that can't source aircraft parts are the Iranians. By grouping the Iranians with the other states in the region you have exposed how little you really understand about the situation at hand. Perhaps it would be wise to not mouth off about things you know nothing about.

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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:19 am



Quoting YOWza (Reply 121):
Please tell me you don't actually believe the situation in the region is entirely the fault of the POMs... The Brits a properly screwed up in a few places but to shift all the blame for this on them is nothing short of ludicrous.

It may have been the British at the start but in recent years and even now the USA has alot to answer for . The USA gives the $$$ which pay for the bombs to drop. Then the USA wonders why these bombs come back to their own soil.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 98):
They would use an AK as a ventilator

Thats a very smart post.

--------------------------------------------------

The Israeli Ambassador was being interviewed on British TV this morning and avoided most questions and was asked 4 times how many Israelis and how many Palestinians have been killed in recent times. He refused to answer four times. Says it all really.

British Government have called for a ceasefire but the Israelis keep bombing innocent people and aim to kill as many as possible under the smoke screen of military targets.

A University was bombed ( another Military target ).

Most normal decent human beings are outraged at these attacks as I have seen on many TV programs and newspaper articles. The trend on here also gives me hope. You will always get those people who thinks its ok to bomb highly residential populated areas until that is their own families are living there !!
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:28 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7802733.stm
Astonishing - the British Foreign Secretary talking something akin to sense!

It is telling that even the UK is calling for a halt in Israeli action, leaving the US as virtually the only country out there not saying so.
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Aaron747
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:04 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 100):
Sadly, most of the rest of the world still hates the Jews, ergo, their views on this conflict.

What about Jews who believe the current strategy of repeated tit for tat response and begetting violence with more of the same is absolutely wrong for the government claiming to be a Jewish state?  Yeah sure There are all kinds of Jews, not only those with hawkish views supporting the Israeli foreign ministry at every turn. There are a lot more of us than you might think.

Israeli absolutely must defend its citizens from random barbarism. The best way to do that is to amicably pursue solutions on all possible fronts while improving the living conditions of Palestinians sufficiently to turn large majorities against the terrorists in their communities supposedly acting on their behalf. It's easy for those in the West who only passively observe the issue to forget that most terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah have both community service and militant wings. The Israeli government must do more to make the everyday Palestinian see that their quality of life is improved more by Israel's hand than those of Hamas or anyone else. The absurd apartheid-like conditions that characterize preferential treatment of Israeli settlers and give local IDF lieutenants more authority in Palestinian towns and cities than locally elected officials (mayors don't decide who can cross at checkpoints, do they?) must come to an end.
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NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:25 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 102):
And if someone throws a Molotov at your house, and injures your child, are you really going to worry about being "proportionate"? No-you're going to go kick the living shit out of the person who did it. If they keep doing it, and keeps injuring you and yours, then you kick the shit out of them until they CAN'T hurt you anymore.

I'm sure that you're a 'loyal American' in most ways, Falcon84 - probably excluding only the question of Israel. But I have to call your attention to the comments of a truly great American - Ben Franklin - after Bunker Hill in the 1770s - on the prospects of war as a method of achieving permanent political success (and 'stability'):-

"Britain, at the expense of three millions [of pounds], has killed 150 Yankees this campaign, which [is] 20,000 a head...During the same time, 60,000 children have been born in America. From these data any mathematical head will easily calculate the time and expense necessary to kill us all."

http://www.lehrmaninstitute.org/history/essays5.html

IMO, Israel has not one chance in a hundred of achieving peace if it persists with policies of religious exclusion and persecution.

By all means disagree if you choose to do so. But please, if you do so, include two or three examples of monotheistic 'solutions' - that is, adherence to a single religion as a condtion of full citizenship being enshrined in the law of the land.

Certainly that is the case in Israel. But I doubt that you will find any other countrry in the whole world where the same is true.

Open to correction - but, as far as I can see, Israel is the most religiously-intolerant country on the face of the Earth..........

And, as they say, that's "Saying something."]

[Edited 2008-12-29 05:35:27]
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na
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:29 pm



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 84):
1-by NOT violating UN Resolutions
2-by NOT building illegal settlements for the past number of years.
3-by NOT stopping shipments of goods, medicine, etc. to the Palestinians
4-by NOT cutting electricity every few weeks.
5-by NOT treating Palistinians like caged animals the past 4 decades..

That's a start....there's a lot more.

I agree with the dubious settlement policy in the occupied territories as I said before. That, more than anything else, indeed shows there is something wrong in Israels policy.
The rest you say is cold warfare against a country which does bad things itself. Israel stops shipment as the terrorists, cynical as they are, use it to smuggle weapons. Lets not forget, Israels only chance is the Palestinians give up and declare defeat. If the Palestians guarantee that no terrorism is aimed at Israel anymore, they´ll be better treated. For the good of their own peoples future the Palestines should deliver Hamas down to the last man.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 89):
Yet Palestinian sources claim most of the people killed have been Hamas militants - "Palestinian security sources said Sunday that at least 277 people, most of them Hamas militants, have been killed and hundreds more wounded."

Here you go!
Add to it that the Palestinian president himself says Hamas is a fault for these events.

Of cause truth is the first to die in a war and I wouldnt believe official Israeli comments, but these two statements say something which cant be far from truth.
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:17 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 124):
Israel absolutely must defend its citizens from random barbarism. The best way to do that is to amicably pursue solutions on all possible fronts while improving the living conditions of Palestinians sufficiently to turn large majorities against the terrorists in their communities supposedly acting on their behalf.

Sincere thanks, Aaron747. That's so right that it's almost painful..........

Israel has an ageing, mostly urban/clerical population. Or totally-unskilled recent Russian arrivals. Most of the Palestinians are young, skilled, but dispossessed farmers..........

When all is said and done, after all, the whole bloody place isn't much bigger than bloody Yorkshire. And both sides need each other.....

Speaking as a mere, retired, 'Town Development Manager,' if they could just throw all this ancient, rubbishy religious crap about the 'Promised Land' out the window, they could maybe rule the world in economic terms...................

Yours in hope - and peace.........

[Edited 2008-12-29 06:20:42]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:37 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 62):
Dozens of tunnels are said to criss-cross between southern Gaza and Egypt's Sinai desert, providing a lifeline to residents who are starved of basic supplies due to an 18-month-long Israeli blockade.

It is an open border with Egypt. Why do they need tunnels?

Egyptian border police fired on Palestinians fleeing across Gaza's western border Sunday

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/ogazaplan

Once again you fail to address the Egyptian border. Very convenient. There fellow Arabs are helping the Israelis with the embargo.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 69):
There is no such possibility for the Palestinians. They don't have anything to build an economic future on. Israeli blockade has put a possibility for that to a halt.

See the Egytian border.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 101):
Israel has the right to defend itself, but the accepted doctrine is that the response has to be 'proportionate.'

Whose excepted doctrine. You face force woth overwhelming force. Not tit for tat

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 111):
Meanwhile, from most news reports, it appears that a clear majority of those killed were members of Hamas, and not innocent civilians.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 112):
And from where do those news reports come?

Hamas. Google it

Quoting YOWza (Reply 121):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 25):
No it would not. They need to sell it just as much as we need to buy it. What will they do if they do not sell any oil. They are already bleeding with the oil prices so low. Aircraft parts are not our lifeblood. Oil is for them


The only ones amongst "them" that can't source aircraft parts are the Iranians. By grouping the Iranians with the other states in the region you have exposed how little you really understand about the situation at hand. Perhaps it would be wise to not mouth off about things you know nothing about.

Look at the source of the post below. I was responding to someone else. Read everything before you respond

Quoting OA260 (Reply 23):
Quoting Par13del (Reply 21):
As I stated earlier, the wealthy Arab nations have oil, which the world falls down over

Hmm theres an interesting slant. Certain Western powers dictate who can have spare airline parts and who cant. Maybe the Oil producers in the Middle East should team together and dictate who they sell oil to and who they will not. It would certainly turn tables and focus peoples minds

 
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Mortyman
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:44 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 94):
That DOES makes me do some 'reasoning,' Allstarflyer.

Along the lines of 'utterly-disproportionate response = war crimes.'

Oddly enough, there's a precedent. Back in 1942 a single German (SS Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich, a personal mate of Hitler's) was assassinated by British Intelligence. The German SS responded by killing the entire adult male population of the village of Lidice:-

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-lidice.htm

Even the SS 'drew the line' at killing the women and children, though........they just rounded them up and sent them all to concentration camps.

Something similare in Norway...

During world war 2, Norwegian resistance people / saboutours sabotaged many of the Germans atemps at controlling Norway. The German response to these sabotage missions was to reprimand innocent people who had not been involved in the sabotage missions. The Germans let their anger go out on civilians, by killing them and / or burning down villages.

The Norwegian sabotours knew that the Germans would reprimand innocent Norwegians this way, but they did the sabotage missions anyway.

Seems like many people here, including Allstarflyer think that using human shields / letting innocent people taking heat is only something that happens in the " barbaric " middle east. But as mentioned, Norwegian sabotours did something similare during world war 2 . One can have discussions about wether it was intentional or not, but when one is up against a more powerful oponent, then desperate measures are often needed to obtain the result for the greater good.

Where the Norwegian sabouturs wrong in what they did, standing up to Hitler and the German war machine ? I don't think so.

I am not saying that I think Hamas does the right thing in the current situation. I jsut try to see things from various angels.

I am further more, not convinced that we westeners are on any higher moral ground than others.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 95):
Exactly! The UN is a joke and the United States should no longer be involved in this. The UN should be completely dismanteld. Of course it would take the other big 4 to get out for the US to get out. If this happens, much more would be accomplished in this conflict.

Not at all. It is the US that is a joke ! Sabotaging the UN by vetoing everything that doesn't suit their beliefs rather than work towards agreements that would change things for the better.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 96):
Sorry, but the US is one of the countries that turned the UN into a joke, along with China and Russia, along with their allies

They only abide by the UN when it serves them, but when it doesn't, they simply use the resolutions as toilet paper, as seen during the months before the 2003 occupation of Iraq, and whenever Russia or China go out to protect any of their allies with their veto power.

Well said ! Could'nt have said it better myself. Thanx Acheron

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 99):
As I said in the last thread, it is nice to see most Americans in these forums not participating in the knee-jerk anti-Israel talk that the rest of the world engages in so freely and disgracefully.

I can assure you that Europeans care just as much for Israel as you Americans. However we are in general more realistic in our approach to things. In general I would say that we Norwegians don't see any solutions for Israel and the region by doing all these agressions and wars.

For some obscure reason, Israelis and also alot of Americans seem to think that Israel can bomb itself out of it's problems. .. It's not gonna work. The conflict can only be solved around a negotiating table.

All these wars won't lead to peace. The Palestinians they have been holding up for atleast 40 years now and I am quit confident that they can go on for another 40.


So we have to think new and not continue the same way as it has been done for so long now.

It won't lead to anything positive for Israel, the region or the USA.

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 117):
No most of the world does not hate the Jews but most of us outside of the US apparently have a bit of decency and don't like anyone getting killed and don't like how repeatedly Israel uses a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

We also don't take each event that happens in Israel/Palestine in isolation, it seems most Americans think this all started recently when Hamas started firing rockets at Israel. I tell you what we'll come and steal your land, do some ethnic cleansing, build a big wall round the tiny bit of pathetic land that we left you, blockade your land and then slaughter a few hundred of you when some of your fellow countrymen have the audacity to put up a bit of fight against us. Your telling me that in this situation you wouldn't fight with any means that you had at your disposal? I would find it very hard to believe that you would just accept it, for starters all you Yanks would still be British if you didn't put up a fight against perceived injustices.

As I said in the original thread Israel has no interest in peace with Palestine. A peaceful Palestine would mean Israel would lose any moral high ground that it still has and would face increased pressure to make concessions to Palestine which would incite the Zionist extremists within Israel. Easier for Israel to keep stirring the hornets nest so that it has to give up nothing.

Well said !

Quoting YOWza (Reply 121):
You're joking right? Please tell me you don't actually believe the situation in the region is entirely the fault of the POMs... The Brits a properly screwed up in a few places but to shift all the blame for this on them is nothing short of ludicrous. Do you have any idea how long US commercial entities have been in the region? Perhaps you should sniff around on that before you start mudslinging...

Well said !
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:54 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 121):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 24):
Whatever. Maybe if the Brits had kept their colonial paws off of the M.E in the first place we then would not be in this position now. The latest fad seems to blame the US for all of the troubles in the M.E. But the roots of the British Empire have been there far longer and are much deeper than our's.

You're joking right? Please tell me you don't actually believe the situation in the region is entirely the fault of the POMs... The Brits a properly screwed up in a few places but to shift all the blame for this on them is nothing short of ludicrous. Do you have any idea how long US commercial entities have been in the region? Perhaps you should sniff around on that before you start mudslinging...

Do you have any idea how long the British have had commercial entities in the ME? Far longer that the US. Ludicrous is that you do not think that the empire's meddling did not create the start of this mess.. Take a look and see when the Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill first bought shares in the Anglo-persian oil company. The Anglo-Persian Oil Company was founded in 1908 following the discovery of a large oil field in Masjed Soleiman, Iran. In 1901 William Knox D'Arcy, a millionaire London socialite, negotiated an oil concession with the Shah Mozzafar al-Din Shah Qajar of Persia. He assumed exclusive rights to prospect for oil for 60 years in a vast tract of territory including most of Iran. In exchange the Shah received £20,000, an equal amount in shares of D'Arcy's company, and a promise of 16% of future profits .It was the first company using the oil reserves of the Middle East.It was renamed Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (AIOC) in 1935 and eventually became the British Petroleum Company (BP) in 1954, as one root of the BP Company today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/149259.stm
http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarti...tegoryId=9014441&contentId=7027521

Remember through WWII the US was a net exporter of oil. We did not need to meddle in the affairs ot the ME. The brits had already beat us to it. The interests that the West (primarily Britain and France during European colonial times and now the US) has was been due to the energy and resource interests. But The US sustained involvement in the ME did not begin until after WWII.

So perhaps you should "sniff around on that before you start mudslinging"

Also let us not forget when the Israelis, supported by British and French, attacked Egypt during the 1956 Suez Crisis. Did the US do this????

"Anthony Eden, the British Prime Minister, feared Nasir's brand of Arab nationalism, and harboured a deep personal dislike of Nasir, seeing him as a new Hitler. Eden wanted Nasir overthrown, and believed a military operation to take control of the canal would enable this"

http://www.answers.com/topic/suez-canal-crisis


So perhaps you should "sniff around on that before you start mudslinging"
 
edka
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:59 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 132):
Israel has an ageing, mostly urban/clerical population. Or totally-unskilled recent Russian arrivals. Most of the Palestinians are young, skilled, but dispossessed farmers.........

NAV20 - this is an absurd statement....unskilled in what??
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:02 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 137):
Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 95):
Exactly! The UN is a joke and the United States should no longer be involved in this. The UN should be completely dismanteld. Of course it would take the other big 4 to get out for the US to get out. If this happens, much more would be accomplished in this conflict.

Not at all. It is the US that is a joke ! Sabotaging the UN by vetoing everything that doesn't suit their beliefs rather than work towards agreements that would change things for the better.

SO we are the only country to veto something that does not suit our beliefs????

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 137):
For some obscure reason, Israelis and also alot of Americans seem to think that Israel can bomb itself out of it's problems. .. It's not gonna work. The conflict can only be solved around a negotiating table.

And for some obscure reason the Terrorist in hamas and Hezbollah think that strapping bombs to themselves and shooting rockets and attacking Israeli civilians that they will relieve themselves of this problem.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 137):
Quoting YOWza (Reply 121):
You're joking right? Please tell me you don't actually believe the situation in the region is entirely the fault of the POMs... The Brits a properly screwed up in a few places but to shift all the blame for this on them is nothing short of ludicrous. Do you have any idea how long US commercial entities have been in the region? Perhaps you should sniff around on that before you start mudslinging...

Well said !

Not really. Read your history

And I did not say that is was entirely the fault of the POM's.
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:03 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 132):
Or totally-unskilled recent Russian arrivals. Most of the Palestinians are young, skilled, but dispossessed farmers..........

What?? How many farms have any of theses Palestinians in Gaza been on in the last thirty years???
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:29 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 141):
SO we are the only country to veto something that does not suit our beliefs????

Not at all.

But the USA is the country with the most vetoes. A ridiculouse amount of them.


At the same time most Americans complain that the UN is not working, not effective etc...

Well there are several reasons for that. One major reason is all the vetoes. from the US and others, but mostly from the USA.

When you veto instead of trying to come to solutions... the UN becomes ineffective. So when Americans complain so much about the UN, you should also point a finger at yourself
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:38 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 105):
Don't you get it? Hamas WANTS Palestinian children killed! The anger fueled by it only gives them more power

Don't you see that we are all agreeing on this? That is what Hamas wants and Israel is giving it to them!! And what was achieved? More hatred and a great excuse for Hamas to recruit even more people.

Quoting KSYR (Reply 109):
They can start by getting rid of their terrorist government.

With what?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 100):
Sadly, most of the rest of the world still hates the Jews, ergo, their views on this conflict.

Falcon, pulling the race card is low. No one in these two very long thread suggested that this is against Jews. And in my case, I always specified that this is about the Israeli Military, not even the citizens. So I really resent your comment and I expect an apology.
Views on this conflict expressed here have had nothing to do with the religious aspect.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Falcon84
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:45 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 148):
ng Falcon84 (Reply 100):
Sadly, most of the rest of the world still hates the Jews, ergo, their views on this conflict.

Falcon, pulling the race card is low.

That's your opinion. I'll stand by the statement.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
rjpieces
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:48 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 148):
No one in these two very long thread suggested that this is against Jews.

Of course everyone will say this. It gives everyone an excuse to rant as wild as any 20th century anti-semite against the world's ONLY Jewish state while proclaiming that "it is only against Israel; not against Jews." Well folks, as Martin Luther King, Jr. once said:

". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth. "
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
KSYR
Posts: 562
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:48 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 122):
British Government have called for a ceasefire but the Israelis keep bombing innocent people and aim to kill as many as possible under the smoke screen of military targets.

Trust me, if it was Israel's goal to kill as many people as possible, the death toll would be 20 times higher by now. Can't help if if Hamas decides to hole up in crowded neighborhoods, that's their loss.

Israel has killed over 200 Hamas fighters in this operation. That should put a pretty big dent in their operations, and hopefully it will convince the Palestinians to be more responsible when it comes to choosing who they want to be led by.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:52 pm



Quoting Lewis (Reply 120):
Sadly, many people around the world mix religion with nationality in the case of Israel no matter what the context of the discussion/comments. I know from Jewish friends that they consider themselves Jewish first and any nationality as second but this is not the way of thinking that we all share.

As the only country with the Star of David on its flag, Israel has some visceral connection to every Jewish person, whether they want to believe it or not. All the more reason that the actions of the only Jewish state should always reflect the admirable traits and values that have long been the hallmark of us all. I'm an American but grew up in a city with one of the largest Jewish communities in the world - a lot of my upbringing was distinctly colored by that and nobody I know considers themselves Israeli nationals by extension, but they certainly don't deny the gravity of the place in their hearts either.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 148):
Falcon, pulling the race card is low. No one in these two very long thread suggested that this is against Jews. And in my case, I always specified that this is about the Israeli Military, not even the citizens. So I really resent your comment and I expect an apology.

The jewish diaspora is comprised of many races and ethnicities, as are all religions in the modern era.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
baroque
Topic Author
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:17 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 136):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 112):
And from where do those news reports come?

Hamas. Google it

Thank you for the reference. It as precise and useful as we have come to expect from most of your information.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:19 pm



Quoting Acheron (Reply 85):

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 84):

1-by NOT violating UN Resolutions

For that, a UN resolution would have to pass first, and while the idiotic system of the veto is still in place...

While the UN is too weak to pass any new resolutions. There are some older resolutions such as UN-242 which apropos, has been accepted by the vast majority of Arab nations......

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 86):

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 77):
The Israeli Govt. attacked fully knowning that it was going to have the most effect. They did it in the afternoon when school kids were coming out and women and other children were shopping...

:I

And what of the attack ON civilians in Israel-AGAINST civilians in Israel? TARGETED against civilians in Israel?

..and those who are launching rockets should be taken care of. The IDF can basically pinpoint where the attacks are coming from.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 89):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 84):

1-by NOT violating UN Resolutions
2-by NOT building illegal settlements for the past number of years.
3-by NOT stopping shipments of goods, medicine, etc. to the Palestinians
4-by NOT cutting electricity every few weeks.
5-by NOT treating Palistinians like caged animals the past 4 decades..

Straight from number 1, Israel would not have struck Gaza had Hamas struck after the cease-fire ended. Springbok's comments can only be reiterated . . .

The bottom line is the Israeli Govt. has continuously and consistently violates UN Resolutions..with basically the "blessing" of the U.S. Govt.

Funny, isn't that why GWB invaded Iraq, for supposedly violating UN Resolution (or what this deceptive government wanted us to believe).. sarcastic 

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 89):

Yet Palestinian sources claim most of the people killed have been Hamas militants - "Palestinian security sources said Sunday that at least 277 people, most of them Hamas militants, have been killed and hundreds more wounded."

True, but the amount of collateral damage is not acceptable.

Now they are bombing mosques as well.

"The UN relief agency in Gaza says 57 civilians have been killed by Israeli fire so far, the latest being five girls who died in Jabaliya refugee camp when Israeli forces bombed a mosque near their home."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7802515.stm

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 89):
. . it would seem some conclude that Israel isn't trying at all to keep their strikes limited to only Hamas militants. Very telling report there by the Palestinian security.

No, I don't most are thinking that at all.. no 

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 86):
And, pray tell me, RJ, what about the Israeli civilians being bombed by Hamas? Where is your outrage at what started all this?

 redflag ...That is a complete canard. Almost everyone is saying this is not acceptable.

Pray tell me Falcon84, why is it acceptable to continuously deny the rights, dignity and land of the Palestinians? Why is the Israeli Govt. continuously STEALING land from the Palestinians?

This is practically the crux of the entire problem.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 95):
Quoting Par13del (Reply 27):
Hamas also bears some responsibility,

Some? How about half if not more? When you give an action, respect a response.

How about 90% since its the Israeli Govt. which is consistently and continuously stealing land from the Palestinians.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 95):
Couldn't have said it better. But people on here will constantly only see the side of Israel doing the bombing and not the constant waves of attack from Hamas or any other organization/country on Israel.

..and who is starting the action? Seems the finger pointing can be directed to the Israeli Govt.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 97):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 88):
As a matter of interest, how many deaths among Israelis have the rockets from Gaza caused?

Irrelevant! This isn't a game of "Let's Get A Body Count!". It's about aggression, and, in this case, Hamas started the agression. Are you denying that Israel has a right to defend itself, or only should defend itself if "x" amount of it's own civilians are killed? I'd like to see you answer that one honestly.

It isn't irrelevant.  no . Here in the United States, someone who commits theft isn't executed. Someone who assaults isn't sent to prison for 90 years.

The punishment fits the crime (at least theoretically) and basically 90% are saying this is not what the Israeli Govt. is doing.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 99):
As I said in the last thread, it is nice to see most Americans in these forums not participating in the knee-jerk anti-Israel talk that the rest of the world engages in so freely and disgracefully.

"Disgracefully"? That's your opinion. I dont' see a billion people reacting "disgracefully". They aren't blinded by the decades of garbage imbued upon the United States population.

Not to mention, America consists of Canada and South America as well..many who are stating this is "overkill".

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 100):
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 99):
As I said in the last thread, it is nice to see most Americans in these forums not participating in the knee-jerk anti-Israel talk that the rest of the world engages in so freely and disgracefully.

Sadly, most of the rest of the world still hates the Jews, ergo, their views on this conflict.

 whistleblower . FYI The rest of the world doesn't hate Jews. What they see is the reality of what the Israeli Govt. is doing. Its called "collective punishment"

"Collective punishment is the punishment of a group of people as a result of the behaviour of one or more other individuals or groups. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions. Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by resistance movements (e.g. by destroying whole villages where attacks have taken place)."*

*- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 101):
If Israel put special forces in to ambush the rocket crews I'd have no quarrel with it. But bombing the daylights out of the infrastructure of the Gaza Strip (what's left of it) and killing large numbers of innocent civilians, including women and children, is way out of line.

 checkmark ...

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 103):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 86):
Wrong. Hamas exists for one reason: to destroy Israel. That's the only reason.

Yes, the core of it is that, but by killing palestinian children you feed people that might have just had no sympathy for Israel into potential terrorists. Give the people food, and they won't turn into radicals.

 checkmark 

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 103):

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 99):
As I said in the last thread, it is nice to see most Americans in these forums not participating in the knee-jerk anti-Israel talk that the rest of the world engages in so freely and disgracefully.

So Americans can't be critical of Israel?
I am not anti Israel, and by no means am I pro Hamas or any other terrorist group. I am against the excessive use of of force by a country, and I am against the double standards the west has on this issue.

Why let facts get in the way EZEIZ? That's what the Israeli Govt. apologists want people to believe. That its "Israel and the United States" against the world and everyone is a "Jew hater". People aren't dumb.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 105):
Don't you get it? Hamas WANTS Palestinian children killed! The anger fueled by it only gives them more power. They don't give a rats' ass about the civilians who die. As far as they're concerned, they're fodder for the fight to destroy Israel.

 whistleblower ..Proof please.

Quoting KSYR (Reply 109):
There is a huge psychological factor that this creates.

Yes, and it's been affecting the Palestinian population for decades.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 113):
Who is Hamas? Everyone looks the same, and those cowards will probably use women and children to carry out their dirty work for them

Hamas was created in part by the Israeli Govt.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 115):
Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 113):
I am surprised the Israelis kept quiet for so long.

Very Similiar situation faced by India too.....all the more serious after 26/11.
Military strikes is an option with no assistance from pakistan to curb those terror training camps located amongst madrassas with children.
An Airstrike could lead to serious civilian hits & no action would only continue those cross border attacks.
regds

Lets not bring this conversation in, we could start this in another thread.

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 117):

No most of the world does not hate the Jews but most of us outside of the US apparently have a bit of decency and don't like anyone getting killed and don't like how repeatedly Israel uses a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 117):
We also don't take each event that happens in Israel/Palestine in isolation, it seems most Americans think this all started recently when Hamas started firing rockets at Israel. I tell you what we'll come and steal your land, do some ethnic cleansing, build a big wall round the tiny bit of pathetic land that we left you, blockade your land and then slaughter a few hundred of you when some of your fellow countrymen have the audacity to put up a bit of fight against us. Your telling me that in this situation you wouldn't fight with any means that you had at your disposal?

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 119):

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 117):
No most of the world does not hate the Jews



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 118):
What does the subject have to do with Jews, Falcon84?

 checkmark 
It's merely a convenient subject to bring to the table to help justify outrageous acts of barbarism. Unless somebody really was stupid or ignorant to make an anti-Jewish attack in this thread, which I don't believe they have, we should leave this kind of crap out of this discussion at all costs, as it is simply not relevant or justified.

 checkmark 

Quoting OA260 (Reply 122):
The Israeli Ambassador was being interviewed on British TV this morning and avoided most questions and was asked 4 times how many Israelis and how many Palestinians have been killed in recent times. He refused to answer four times. Says it all really.

 checkmark  checkmark 

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 125):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 102):
And if someone throws a Molotov at your house, and injures your child, are you really going to worry about being "proportionate"? No-you're going to go kick the living shit out of the person who did it. If they keep doing it, and keeps injuring you and yours, then you kick the shit out of them until they CAN'T hurt you anymore.

I'm sure that you're a 'loyal American' in most ways, Falcon84

More like "blindly loyal".. sarcastic 

Quoting NA (Reply 126):
I agree with the dubious settlement policy in the occupied territories as I said before. That, more than anything else, indeed shows there is something wrong in Israels policy.

That's the crux of the issue. Its the "dubious settlement policy" which is probably 90% of the problem.

Quoting NA (Reply 126):
If the Palestians guarantee that no terrorism is aimed at Israel anymore, they´ll be better treated. For the good of their own peoples future the Palestines should deliver Hamas down to the last man.

Maybe if the Isreali Govt. stops stealing land and gives some rights and dignity this would change.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 129):
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 127):
most of western Europe treats their minorities (read: Muslims) as absolute shit

Although this subject may be for another thread, that statement is possibly even more ridiculous and inaccurate than the one criticised in your post. It is totally untrue. Way to generalise and exaggerate.

 checkmark .

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 143):
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 131):
Unlike what you're doing, right? You people are comparing ~200 Palestinians dying, MOST of them Hamas militants/terrorists, with the worst genocides in history.

'You people'????? I only talk for myself, and have made no such direct comparisons. Talking such nonsense as you just have does not change the fact that the point about muslims in western Europe was total and utter rubbish.

 checkmark 

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 148):

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 100):
Sadly, most of the rest of the world still hates the Jews, ergo, their views on this conflict.

Falcon, pulling the race card is low. No one in these two very long thread suggested that this is against Jews.

 checkmark 
"Up the Irons!"
 
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Mortyman
Posts: 5811
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:24 pm



Quoting KSYR (Reply 152):
Israel has killed over 200 Hamas fighters in this operation. That should put a pretty big dent in their operations, and hopefully it will convince the Palestinians to be more responsible when it comes to choosing who they want to be led by.

It's awfully naive if to think that Hamas is gonna be affected much by the loss of 200 fighters.


Hamas and the Palestinians have been fighting Israel for many decades. They will continue to fight and more Palestinians will join Hamas in the fight.

And the longer the fight goes on, the bigger is the risk that other countries in the region will get involved.

Islamic leaders around the world is currently calling for people of islam to join forces and help the Palestinians with soldiers.

In Iran and Indonesia people are asked to fight on Palestinian side

In Baghdad thousands gathered to support the shiamuslim leader Muqtada al-Sadrs in portest of the attacks on Gaza

The Iraqi governmental party al-Dawa asked all governments and muslims to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Palestinian people and to halt all relationships with Israel

In Indonesia a millitant group has said that it is sending 1000 soldies to Gaza

Irans leader Ayatolla Ali Khaminei has asked all the worlds muslims to help the Palestinians in every way possible.


Palestinians are not alone. They have many friend s too


I am not so sure if it is wise to conclude anything here....



It aint over til it's over...
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:29 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 157):
Palestinians are not alone. They have many friend s too

And when push comes to shove, the Arab world-which, by the way, has been the one over the years to abandon the Palestinians, will do nothing, because they know that if they take on Israel, Israel will kick their butts.

And, again, there are many in the Arab world that don't mind the deaths of the Palestinians one bit. As I said before, it helps stoke the fires against Israel. That's all they care about, and they're willing to sacrifice millions of Arabs, if need be, for their dream of wiping out Israel. To them, trading a few million Arabs and Muslims if it means destroying Israel, it's a small price to pay for them. So they think.......
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
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OA260
Posts: 24088
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:41 pm



Quoting KSYR (Reply 152):
the death toll would be 20 times higher by now.

Is it not high enough already?

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 155):
The bottom line is the Israeli Govt. has continuously and consistently violates UN Resolutions..with basically the "blessing" of the U.S. Govt.

Funny, isn't that why GWB invaded Iraq, for supposedly violating UN Resolution (or what this deceptive government wanted us to believe).. sarcastic

Yep but we cant talk about that , its different . Different morals for different countries and governments apparantly.  Yeah sure

Certain countries re write history and rules and violations all the time now because they use threats and force because they are a superpower.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:41 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 142):
What?? How many farms have any of theses Palestinians in Gaza been on in the last thirty years???

Difficult to get the 'human factor' over to you, since l doubt that you have ever visited the region.

An olive tree planted in good soil can thrive and yield copious fruit for at least two hundred years - most often more.

I wouldn't even expect someone like you to understand. But a high proportion of the olive trees that Israel is bulldozing, week by week, to build their bloody wall (AND the families that tend them) are older than the United States itself.......

But don't worry about it. Elderly argumentative old buggers like me and Baroque will die off soon........

Once you're free of us 'oldies' who have lived through the odd world war and 'cold war', feel free to make your own analysis of the situation. In my limited experience, and only SO far, the prospect of wars are worse than their actuality. No reason why youshouldn't be as lucky as I was........

It is entirely possible - say a mere 50/50 bet - that Israel's constant provocation of most of the rest of the world will not lead to World War Three..........

So put your money on and take your chances. I'm not bothered either way - having lived through one 'Blitz,' I guess that I can put up with another one if I have to...........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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OA260
Posts: 24088
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:49 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 151):
An olive tree planted in good soil can thrive

Even thats under threat !!

Go to youtube and type this ''palestinian olive farmers attacked'' and see what you get !!
 
baroque
Topic Author
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:05 pm

Some analysis is available from Paul McGeough at

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/bpa...81.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
Guerilla tactics create chaos

Paul McGeough Chief Herald Correspondent December 30, 2008

If it was possible to get rid of Hamas, Israel would have done so long ago.

But this month the Palestinian Islamist movement celebrated its 21st anniversary with a huge rally in Gaza, marking the point at which its existence might be described as more than half as long as Israel has controlled the Occupied Territories.

...

But despite more than 300 deaths and twice as many injuries, there has been no sensible assessment yet of the impact of the strikes on Hamas's fighting ability. The onslaught has to have been a setback for the movement.

But Hamas is not a bricks-and-mortar organisation. Virtually its entire leadership was underground for the attacks, and a good number of the dead would be better described as suburban policemen desperate to earn a few dollars than as the hard-core, ideologically committed men of Hamas's Al-Qassam military wing. Also clouded in the dust of war is the state of Hamas's arsenal of rockets, some of which have been reaching more than 30 kilometres into Israel. Likewise the tunnels from Egypt which Hamas uses for supplies. Israel claims to have bombed about 40 of them; most reports talk of more than 100 such tunnels.

......

They say the air campaign will continue till the Hamas rockets stop. But according to the Israeli daily Ha'aretz, the list of targets for aerial bombardment was to be exhausted as early as yesterday.

.......
The flaw in the Israelis' strategic thinking is historic. Whatever they have done since seizing the Occupied Territories in 1967 they have been unable to make the Palestinian people, and Gazans in particular, buckle.

Israel occupied the Gaza Strip militarily. It imposed civilian settlements. It withdrew the civilians and left its military on the perimeter. None of these worked. In the 1980s it even encouraged the Islamist antecedents of Hamas in the hope that they would be a counterweight to the secular forces of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement and the Palestine Liberation Organisation.

....
On Sunday the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, argued that the latest Gaza campaign was to "restore normal life and quiet to residents on the south [of Israel]".

"Normal" and "quiet" are not words that Gazans could use to describe their existence.


Very similar to arguments presented here and in the previous thread in many posts, but McGeough has some standing as a correspondent. The whole article is well worth reading. Access is through the link provided. No subscription needed to access the full article.

Also note the quoted comments from A Cordesman.
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:12 pm

"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
baroque
Topic Author
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:20 pm



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 148):
This article is worth reading:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/12292008...mned_if_they_do_146263.htm?&page=1

One might wonder what the article is supposed to be about when para 2 is:
How long will it be until the UN General Assembly passes a resolution creating an international Holocaust Appreciation Day?

Any progress then on the Armenian experience?

Given the fact that Hamas adheres to the terrorist practice of locating command sites, arsenals and training facilities in heavily populated areas, the results suggest that the IDF - supported by first-rate intelligence work - may have executed the most accurate wave of airstrikes in history, with a 15-to-1 terrorist-to-civilian kill ratio.

Let us see how that stands up to neutral assessments.

And

Israel's crime has been making democracy work where tyranny prevailed for 5,000 years. Israel's crime has been survival against overwhelming odds, while legions of Arab nationalists, Islamist extremists and Western leftists want every Jew dead.

Tyranny for 5,000 years. Does that guy know what he is writing. Where was his editor when he wrote that???

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