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baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:22 pm

Sorry in Reply 149, I forgot one of the better bits:

What have been Israel's "crimes?" Not "stealing Palestinian land," but making that land productive, while exposing the incompetence and sloth of Arab culture.
 
Gman94
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:24 pm



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 148):
This article is worth reading:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/12292008...mned_if_they_do_146263.htm?&page=1

A very one eyed and biased viewpoint, he says Israel struck back against their tormentors but last time I checked it was the Palestinians who were oppressed, blockaded and without any hope all at the hands of the Israelis. It's amazing how a journalist can rewrite history.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:25 pm



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 148):
This article is worth reading:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/12292008...mned_if_they_do_146263.htm?&page=1

Oh dear. What a dreadful, self-serving, ill-conceived waste of my two minutes that article was.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 149):
Where was his editor when he wrote that???

Probably holding a meeting with the Israeli Prime Minister to decide what to write next.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
Gman94
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:38 pm

It's ok though as long as your a democratic country you can basically do what you want ranging from stealing land, ethnic cleansing, besieging people and then act all surprised when people take offence to this and put up a fight.  sarcastic 
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
jfk69
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:40 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 151):
A very one eyed and biased viewpoint

Like most of the BBC items that have been posted.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:42 pm



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 154):
Like most of the BBC items that have been posted.

Oh pleeez . Just any media that does not agree with your point of view must be ''biased''. I would trust the BBC before I trust anything beamed from Disneyland.

10 different news networks I have been watching from various countries on my Sat dish must all be biased then.
 
aviationmaster
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:55 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 116):
Maybe by killing terrorists and not a mixture of terrorists and civilians?

Way easier said than done. How do you suggest this be done in the most effective way? TIme and time again I ask myself how many of these so called 'civilians' are in fact... 'civilians'.

dead armed terrorist (not wearing some sort of uniform) + take away weapon = 'civilian' casualty

Some of you people need to step out of your utopian bubble. Long gone are the days when an Army A would fight an Army B on an open field with no civilians around for miles.
 
lewis
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:01 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 139):
As the only country with the Star of David on its flag, Israel has some visceral connection to every Jewish person, whether they want to believe it or not. All the more reason that the actions of the only Jewish state should always reflect the admirable traits and values that have long been the hallmark of us all. I'm an American but grew up in a city with one of the largest Jewish communities in the world - a lot of my upbringing was distinctly colored by that and nobody I know considers themselves Israeli nationals by extension, but they certainly don't deny the gravity of the place in their hearts either.

Yes, that's what I have gotten from Jewish people I know, but I never think of that when critisizing something in a national level; what I might think about Israel's policy right now has nothing to do (in my mind) with Jewish non-Israeli people that I know, at least that connection is non existent in the way I think, maybe because I am not a very religious person. Israelis might as well be Christian for all I care. This is why it is still hard for me to fully absorb and understand what you are describing above and why you are automatically against the Jewish people if you do not agree with what Israel does (not something YOU said).

I would never think that a negative comment about Greeks would show hate for all christinan orthodox people, not even for the christian greek orthodox who are not Greek nationals. Not the same 100% but you catch my drift.
 
Gman94
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:02 pm



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 154):

Like most of the BBC items that have been posted.

The BBC might have some failings but they are darn sight more respected then any of the drivel that comes out of the US media.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:06 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 149):
Tyranny for 5,000 years. Does that guy know what he is writing.

Sort of 'liked' that bit, Baroque.Considering that the 'despised' Arabs were setting up libraries and universities while our own ancestors were just working out what shade of blue woad to paint themselves wtih........

Quoting Baroque (Reply 149):
How long will it be until the UN General Assembly passes a resolution creating an international Holocaust Appreciation Day?

Personally, on the subject of WW2, I'd give priority to a 'British Commonwealth Armed Forces Day.'

'We' - or rather our parents - were the only people who fought the Axis all the way through from 1939 to 1945. And beat the sods. Particularly remember my mother - a quiet unassuming lady who just happened to be an admiral's secretary, and caught the train into Central London every day through the Blitz and the flying-bombs - and had to leave us in care of the 'housekeeper from Hell' for the two months around D-Day, while (as I much later learned) she had to go down to Southampton and work 12 hours a day...........

Honestly makes me f*****g mad when people nowadays seem to consider wars 'tolerable' - as just a bloody 'thread topic.'

We both know that, if you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, wars are nothing of the sort.

Whichever side you're on..........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:06 pm



Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 156):
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 116):
Maybe by killing terrorists and not a mixture of terrorists and civilians?

Way easier said than done. How do you suggest this be done in the most effective way?

It can't, and there's no rationale response, really, outside of having Israel send in ground troops to weed out the militants. Think the outcry over airstrikes is bad, wait 'til the ground incursion.

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 156):
TIme and time again I ask myself how many of these so called 'civilians' are in fact... 'civilians'.

dead armed terrorist (not wearing some sort of uniform) + take away weapon = 'civilian' casualty

Agreed, some refuse to figure the mathematics of the entire situation (for example, focusing on a number of Palestinian civilians dead while largely ignoring Israeli civilians dead - I guess 40-60 dead Palestinian civilians is an international travesty while a few dead Israelis is an unfortunate loss - see the tipped balance?), as this idea, in particular, hasn't been factored into the equation.

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 156):
Some of you people need to step out of your utopian bubble.

For some, it's too comfortable there.
Living the American Dream
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:13 pm



Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 156):
Way easier said than done. How do you suggest this be done in the most effective way? TIme and time again I ask myself how many of these so called 'civilians' are in fact... 'civilians'.

I'm no military tactician, but I answered that very question in an earlier post (possibly one of the thousand or so subsequently deleted). I cannot imagine that there are not more precise or 'surgical' options available to the well-resourced Israeli government than airstrikes, but in any case, I would much rather that they made a serious attempt to make sensible efforts with peace talks, real concessions, and demonstrate the capacity to treat people humanely and thus take the moral high ground, before resorting to military strikes that only play into the hands of Hamas and make the wider Palestinian population suffer even more.

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 156):
dead armed terrorist (not wearing some sort of uniform) + take away weapon = 'civilian' casualty

That can be the case, just as it can be the case that civilians are mistaken for terrorists.

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 156):
Some of you people need to step out of your utopian bubble. Long gone are the days when an Army A would fight an Army B on an open field with no civilians around for miles.

No kidding.  Yeah sure
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
jfk69
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:16 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 155):
Oh pleeez . Just any media that does not agree with your point of view must be ''biased''. I would trust the BBC before I trust anything beamed from Disneyland.

10 different news networks I have been watching from various countries on my Sat dish must all be biased then

So Gman94 is allowed to say that the post has a biased point of view but I can't say that the BBC does?

That's what makes the news so great. I will stick with my side, you stick with yours and as we all know, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:22 pm



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 162):
the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I can partly agree with that ! Thats the reason I watch and read reports from all angles. You get an all rounded view and then can make up your own mind.
 
BA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:25 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 143):
And, again, there are many in the Arab world that don't mind the deaths of the Palestinians one bit. As I said before, it helps stoke the fires against Israel. That's all they care about, and they're willing to sacrifice millions of Arabs, if need be, for their dream of wiping out Israel. To them, trading a few million Arabs and Muslims if it means destroying Israel, it's a small price to pay for them. So they think.......

Sorry, but this message you keep repeating has absolutely no basis. Every time Israel kills hundreds of Palestinians, Arabs around the world go out into the streets and demonstrate calling on their governments to intervene and in the case of Egypt and Jordan, sever diplomatic relations with Israel. In fact, the Egyptian and Jordanian embassies have become popular gathering spots for demonstrations.

These pictures speak for themselves:

Beirut, Lebanon







Damascus, Syria







Amman, Jordan







Cairo, Egypt







Dubai, United Arab Emirates







But perhaps it is some sort of conspiracy?
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
aviationmaster
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:33 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 161):
I would much rather that they made a serious attempt to make sensible efforts with peace talks, real concessions, and demonstrate the capacity to treat people humanely and thus take the moral high ground, before resorting to military strikes

This would indeed be the most desirable approach; but it will only work with sacrifices and real commitment coming from BOTH sides, which at the current moment is most unlikely.

Unfortunately it seems like every time the situation in the ME takes a step towards the right direction, it ends up taking two steps backwards due to some terrorist attack, pre-emptive military strike or disagreement between both sides.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:35 pm



Quoting BA (Reply 164):
Every time Israel kills hundreds of Palestinians, Arabs around the world go out into the streets and demonstrate

And not just Arabs either. 3000 Greeks demonstrated outside the Israeli Embassy in Athens today to voice their opposition to the bombings.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:36 pm



Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 165):
real commitment coming from BOTH sides, which at the current moment is most unlikely.

Of course, I just think that in the meantime, civilians should be protected at all costs, particularly by the (supposedly) more responsibile party in the conflict.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
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viaggiare
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:38 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 142):
Hamas and the Palestinians have been fighting Israel for many decades. They will continue to fight and more Palestinians will join Hamas in the fight.

From CNN.com earlier this morning: "A United Nations spokeswoman in Gaza City described the scene as chaotic and said Palestinians were "running in all directions" and had begun fighting among themselves."

It always makes me wonder how this pervasive culture of violence (whether the fighting is against Israel, or between members of Hamas and Fatah, or between clans aka hamullas) will play itself out should a Palestinian state ever come into existence in Gaza and the West Bank.
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
AGM100
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:42 pm



Quoting BA (Reply 164):
Every time Israel kills hundreds of Palestinians, Arabs around the world go out into the streets and demonstrate calling on their governments to intervene and in the case of Egypt and Jordan, sever diplomatic relations with Israel. In fact, the Egyptian and Jordanian embassies have become popular gathering spots for demonstrations.

Oh wow ... how original Muslims screaming and yelling about injustice .... please.

Of course, everytime Palastinians fire rockets and morters over the border what do we hear ? Nothing ,

And when Islamic terror killers raid hotels in India , Baghdad , Islamabad , and everywhere else ..what do we hear from them ? Nothing.

Maybe the Arab governemnts should hold off on the new A380 VIP gold plated aircraft and spend some money helping the people in Gaza . For what they spend on one aircraft they could pave the steets and help the palastinians. But no, having them as meat puppets against the Jews is better policy for there ultimate goal.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:50 pm



Quoting Acheron (Reply 107):


No, is the most stupid thing to do in an area dense in civilians. The Smart thing to do would be to send Special Forces into the area and take the out the Hamas groups in there.

I seriously doubt that Israel with the intelligence services it has, is not able to locate even the guy who just fires the damn thing, thus thinking that bombing the entire place is the best "solution".

I just simply doubt that the famed Mossad or the Shabak are that useless.

[quote=Acheron,reply=107]

Compare the body count in Fallujah and Operation Phantom Fury, 95 marines died there and it´s half million living there,
bodycount of Iraqis +1300 and +1500 captured, 39 thousand houses partly or totally destroyed.
OPF lasted for 40 days.
Operation Cast Lead has so far bodycount of +310 Gazans and 2 Israelis, don´t know how many buildings have been destroyed. I think that OCL is definitly more efficent after 3 days
in an area with 3 times the population that of Fallujah.
I predict that OCL will continue until 20th of january than UN will govern Gaza.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:54 pm



Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 156):
Way easier said than done. How do you suggest this be done in the most effective way?

Specialforces might be one solution...

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 159):
Sort of 'liked' that bit, Baroque.Considering that the 'despised' Arabs were setting up libraries and universities while our own ancestors were just working out what shade of blue woad to paint themselves wtih........

Good one. Thanx .-)

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 161):
I cannot imagine that there are not more precise or 'surgical' options available to the well-resourced Israeli government than airstrikes, but in any case, I would much rather that they made a serious attempt to make sensible efforts with peace talks, real concessions, and demonstrate the capacity to treat people humanely and thus take the moral high ground, before resorting to military strikes that only play into the hands of Hamas and make the wider Palestinian population suffer even more.

Hats of to you.
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:55 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 145):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 142):
What?? How many farms have any of theses Palestinians in Gaza been on in the last thirty years???

Difficult to get the 'human factor' over to you, since l doubt that you have ever visited the region

You still skipped around the answer. You stated that

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 133):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 132):
Most of the Palestinians are young, skilled, but dispossessed farmers..........

Because of some Olive farms most of the young Palestinian are skilled farmers.  Wow! And can you show us how many are dispossessed?? How many of the million plus Palestinians in gaza have worked a farm of anykind in the last thirty years. I imagine since I grow my own fruuits and vegetables in my yard that I am a skilled farmer. So put up some numbers and not some long winded discourse about getting the "human factor" over to me.


And you would be surprised on how many places I have been.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 146):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 151):
An olive tree planted in good soil can thrive

Even thats under threat !!

Go to youtube and type this ''palestinian olive farmers attacked'' and see what you get !!

Go google something and see how many Israeli farmers that have been killed over the years.Back in the 60's thet had israeli farmers getting shelled from the Syrians on the Golan height's . guess what would happen? Some of those nice shiny Fench made Mystere's or Ouragans (not American made or sponsered) would drop some bombs on the Artillery positions. Fourty years later and the same crap is still going on.

It is a tit for tat argument. Farmers have been killed on both side. Kids have been killed on both sides. Stopping it has to end somewhere. Sob stories about the "children" and "olive trees" will not solve anything. Hamas and Hezbollah stopping the attacks and Israel opening the borders in return will. Do you think thatHamas and Hezbollah ahve any intention of doing that???
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:56 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 166):
And not just Arabs either. 3000 Greeks demonstrated outside the Israeli Embassy in Athens today to voice their opposition to the bombings.

Probably the anarchists that seek confrontation and riots again.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:59 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 169):
Maybe the Arab governemnts should hold off on the new A380 VIP gold plated aircraft and spend some money helping the people in Gaza . For what they spend on one aircraft they could pave the steets and help the palastinians. But no, having them as meat puppets against the Jews is better policy for there ultimate goal.

 bigthumbsup 

And that is what they have been for the Arab league since 1947. If the Arabs had wanted Gaza could have been Abu Dhabi since Israel left in 2005. But I do not think that is what they want. And what about the money that Arafat the terrorist put away for "safekeeping" . how many kids would that of feed????
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:01 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 172):
Fourty years later and the same crap is still going on.

Yes and Isreal is still bombing innocents and in turn creating another generation to attack it back.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 173):
Probably the anarchists that seek confrontation and riots again.

These were totally different groups and a totally different issue.
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:01 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 170):
I predict that OCL will continue until 20th of january than UN will govern Gaza.

You think that when Obama takes office, he'll somehow engineer a deal that allows the UN to hold sovereignty over the area? Good luck to the U(tter) N(onsense) in pulling that off.
Living the American Dream
 
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:11 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 134):
When you veto instead of trying to come to solutions... the UN becomes ineffective. So when Americans complain so much about the UN, you should also point a finger at yourself

Will not go too far with this UN issue but a couple years ago - before accepting "culpability for the Pan Am bombimg - Libya was nominated to head one of the UN Human Rights Commissions, that is one of the reasons why veto powers exist, to fend off items for political gain rather than human gain. Th veto power also works in the reverse as in resolutions against Israel, Cuba and others.
At times the UN reminds me of the US Congress, pass out-landish bills because you know the senate will correct and moderate the items.

A lot has been written but not much about solutions going forward.

1. A cease fire will eventually take place, hopefully with out a ground war.
2. Israel and Egypt borders will have to be used to supply aid, lets encourage the UN to shift all its humanitarian supplies to the Egyptian border taking advantage of another resource.
3. What is going to happen to the West Bank when the first suicide bombing takes place, I don't think the Gaza border with Israel is going to be open for inbound traffic in the near future so the bombers will either be sleepers in Israel or the West Bank.
4. What is going to happen when rocket attacks resume from Gaza. Israel cannot prevent them and the initial truce brokerd by Egypt did not stop them, they continued even before the Israeli tunnel raid, just on a much smaller scale. Thats an Israeli problem also, they tolerated what they may have called "nuisance" shots, a mistake, more pressure should have been exerted on Egypt to get Hamas in line, after the revolt, my take is that Hamas rules supreme, nothing happens in Gaza without their say so, as I said my take ( opinion ), have no facts or sources to back that up, just that they took over by election then evicted the PLO reps by force of arms.

Anyone have the balls to propose a Arab, EU, UN, US or whoever border and or police force in Gaza to ensure no more rocket attacks, if something drastic like this does not take place, the cycle will start again. The UN force on the Lebanese border seems to be working, if there have been incursions it appears as if the UN is dealing with it and both sides - Israel and Hezbollah - seem to be content with the adjudication.

Gaza like the west bank now have the physical means to be independent of Israel for its supplies and trade, with the border with Egypt now under Arab control, there is no valid reason for the UN, EU, US and others to give Israel a say in humanitarian aid shipments. I mention humanitarian aid, in case persons simply say Israel would not allow it, they allow these type of shipments, their agreement with Egypt cover weapons, ammunition and military type supplies, food and water is allowed.

As it relates to Hamas, if the people of Gaza choose to elect them at the polls that is their right, it is also the right of other countries whose politicians are also elected to refuse to do business with them, this is where the UN failed in this whole crisis. Israel does not support or believe in the Hamas Govt. they have been pressuring the people of Gaza as a result by trade which is their right. Where the UN and other Human Rights groups failed is that they chose not to base their operations in a "friendly country" - Egypt - an already bad situation was made worse when there were alternatives.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:12 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 169):
Maybe the Arab governemnts should hold off on the new A380 VIP gold plated aircraft and spend some money helping the people in Gaza . For what they spend on one aircraft they could pave the steets and help the palastinians. But no, having them as meat puppets against the Jews is better policy for there ultimate goal.

Actually its the tens of millions of dollars donated by the rich which has kept Gaza (and the West Bank) from completely collapsing.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 174):
And that is what they have been for the Arab league since 1947. If the Arabs had wanted Gaza could have been Abu Dhabi since Israel left in 2005. But I do not think that is what they want. And what about the money that Arafat the terrorist put away for "safekeeping" . how many kids would that of feed????

Last time I recalled, two wrongs don't make a right. Not to mention, the Israeli Govt. did its best to marginalise Arafat. Finally, he's been dead for a few years yet the illegal activities of the Israeli Govt. has yet to cease.

"In the early 1990s, Arafat and leading Fatah officials engaged the Israeli government in a series of secret talks and negotiations that led to the 1993 Oslo Accords.[61][38] The agreement called for the implementation of Palestinian self-rule in portions of the West Bank and Gaza Strip over a five year period, along with an immediate halt to and gradual removal of Israeli settlements in those areas." ..."However, the inhabitants of the territories generally accepted the agreements and Arafat's promise for peace and economic well-being.[66]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_...n_Authority_and_peace_negotiations

and what did the Israeli Govt. do? EXPAND settlements.

Not to mention, people such as Natenyahu have opposed even a state of Palestine to exist..

"Candidates backing Mr Netanyahu - who opposes the idea of Palestinian statehood - made a better-than-expected showing."..that's real constructive.. sarcastic 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2558451.stm
"Up the Irons!"
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:19 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 176):
You think that when Obama takes office, he'll somehow engineer a deal that allows the UN to hold sovereignty over the area? Good luck to the U(tter) N(onsense) in pulling that off.

Obviously Israel want a good relation with BO, so I think so yes. UN is weak but the best option in this crisis.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
ly001
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:35 pm



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 178):
"In the early 1990s, Arafat and leading Fatah officials engaged the Israeli government in a series of secret talks and negotiations that led to the 1993 Oslo Accords.[61][38] The agreement called for the implementation of Palestinian self-rule in portions of the West Bank and Gaza Strip over a five year period, along with an immediate halt to and gradual removal of Israeli settlements in those areas." ..."However, the inhabitants of the territories generally accepted the agreements and Arafat's promise for peace and economic well-being.[66]"

and what did we get? a new territory held up by terror organizations as a home base for them to build up new bombs and send them to Israel as suicide bombers. at that time we had every week buses and restaurants exploding by suicide bombers and killing Innocent civilians. nice promise by arafat. and in 2005 we left Gaza and what did we get? hamastan, a terror organization that instead of investing in the future of the Palestinians people, invested all the money in building rockets. what do they want to achieve by that????
why do they miss every opportunity?
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:38 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 133):

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 132):
Or totally-unskilled recent Russian arrivals. Most of the Palestinians are young, skilled, but dispossessed farmers..........

What?? How many farms have any of theses Palestinians in Gaza been on in the last thirty years???

There´s quite a few Moshavim (farm communities which families rent land from Israel) and they used to hire Palestinians (they had to go back to Gaza every night) and they where replaced by guestworkers from Thailand and volunteers (many South Africans) during the 1990ies.
Gaza used to export produce to Israel (like pickles and tomatoes) and it was packed in boxes
that said "made in Israel". During grape and orange season an organizer (often Israeli arab, citizen of Israel) would hire 10-20 people from West bank or Gaza and drive the pickers to a
grape, orange or apple field owned by a Moshavim member or Kibbutz where they picked the produce. Often the Israeli Arab took most of the money and gave a bit to the pickers.
This stopped during the 1990ies and now Thais mainly do this work.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
CXA330300
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:54 pm

Yes, Israel does need to do something about Hamas.
But no, excessive air strikes are not the answer and will only serve to entrench Hamas in the Gaza Strip.
And ordinary Israelis and Palestinians continue to suffer.

I have absolutely no respect for any organization (Hamas) that throws 14-year-old boys off roofs blindfolded and gagged (remember June '07?) and launches rockets at innocent civilians. But as a Jew, I have little respect for an Israeli government that launches a war rather than letting in humanitarian aid (violating the spirit of tzedakah) because its convienient for upcoming elections.

There won't be any peace unless Israel and the Palestinians do it themselves without the help of the US and other Arab states (read: Turkish mediation). American Jews in general are far more conservative about the conflict than Israelis (there's less of a spectrum of opinions in the US than in Israel), and many Arab governments have a vested interest in keeping this conflict alive-they need something to keep the people quiet so that the Khaleds and Sahras of the Bab el-Tebbanehs don't start knocking down their doors.

Quoting BA (Reply 164):
demonstrate calling on their governments to intervene and in the case of Egypt and Jordan, sever diplomatic relations with Israel

Fat chance. Egypt and Jordan have far too much to lose if they do that. Egypt and especially Jordan don't exactly want a flood of refugees nor do they want to be on Washington's bad side (cough aid-and-support cough).
Home airport now: DCA/IAD
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:02 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 175):
Probably the anarchists that seek confrontation and riots again.


These were totally different groups and a totally different issue.

I don´t think so, my experience is that those are professional troublemakers whom take any chance to demonstrate and have a good riot. Recently they had practice runs in Malmo, Sweden for no apperent reason.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:04 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 189):
Recently they had practice runs in Malmo, Sweden for no apperent reason.

There was more to that than no reason !! I think you know what the story was. Even I saw that news item here.
 
QXatFAT
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Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:10 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 129):
Not at all. It is the US that is a joke ! Sabotaging the UN by vetoing everything that doesn't suit their beliefs rather than work towards agreements that would change things for the better.

What is ignorant is to think that the US is the ones doing all of it. What about Russia, China, Britan, France? Give me a break. The US may be involved in vetoing (which I do not deny) but everyone else is as well.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 134):
But the USA is the country with the most vetoes. A ridiculouse amount of them.

So having the most makes them doing it all? No. Others are involved as well. Russia and China have a lot of the more recent due to the conflicts in the Middle East.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 141):
..and who is starting the action? Seems the finger pointing can be directed to the Israeli Govt.

Okay so it is either Israeli's deciding we are going to throw some rockets over here today and see what the reaction will be or it can be Israeli's in Gaza fireing rockets into Israel to make it seem like it is Hamas to start the bombardment. What a joke. Israel is not some stpuid country. They know if they just lobbed rockets into a country for no reason the whole world would be upon them calling them out. Maybe your just saying that they are the only stupid country in this world.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 155):
Just any media that does not agree with your point of view must be ''biased''

Everyone has a bias. To say otherwise is ignorance.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 169):
Oh wow ... how original Muslims screaming and yelling about injustice .... please.

Of course, everytime Palastinians fire rockets and morters over the border what do we hear ? Nothing ,

 checkmark   dollarsign   checkmark 

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 169):
And when Islamic terror killers raid hotels in India , Baghdad , Islamabad , and everywhere else ..what do we hear from them ? Nothing.

You hear it from India when they are attacked, you hear it from Jordan when they are attacked, you hear it from Indonesia when they are attacked. Never morning or condeming when it happens to others. We are seeing it in Indias case with Pakestan not demonstrating in the streets and we are not seeing it Palestine in the streets.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:39 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 166):
And not just Arabs either. 3000 Greeks demonstrated outside the Israeli Embassy in Athens today to voice their opposition to the bombings.

Are these the same ones that burned their city last month?? How about the millions of greeks who did not protest?
 
ly001
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:40 pm

Since WWII, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the national conflict with the lowest number of victims, but with the world’s highest number of publications hostile to Israel in the media and in the Academia.
At least half a million Algerians died during the French occupation. A million Afghanis died during the Soviet occupation. Millions of Muslims and Arabs were killed and slaughtered at the hands of Muslims. and i can give you where exact the 10 million Muslims killed by Muslims accured.
If a Palestinian terrorist or a Hizballah man tries to shoot a rocket from the midst of a civilian neighborhood, and Israel retaliates with fire - causing the death of two children - there will be endless headlines and articles all over the world that “Israel murders children”. But if entire villages are destroyed in Sudan or whole cities are erased in Syria, there will be no television cameras in the area.
 
aviationmaster
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:53 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 171):
Specialforces might be one solution...

I'm almost certain that if Israel applied this tactic, that they'd still get blasted for it. Besides, I can bet that we'd still see 'civilian' casualties miraculously appear from no man's land.

Unfortunately, it seems like any country nowadays trying to combat terrorism always ends up in a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't position' at the end of the day.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:52 pm

Israel in 'all-out war' with Hamas

Israel's military is in an "all-out war" with Hamas in the Gaza Strip, Ehud Barak, the defence minister, says.

Palestinian medical sources say at least 345 Gazans have been killed and another 1,450 wounded in three consecutive days of Israeli bombardment in the heavily-populated territory.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...t/2008/12/2008122994140674153.html


Latest casualty figures and god knows what the final death toll will be .When will they realise its not Hamas thats suffering !!
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:13 pm

OA260, just see how Operation Phantom Fury ended, 40days of fighting and +1300 Iraqis killed.
Hamas has breached into the IDF telephone wavelenghts and are giving false orders and taunt the IDF, I wonder how long they are capable of doing that for or if they do it from Egypt?
IDF continues to warn civilians over the telephone when they´re about to trash a site,
"a missle was launched from the roof of your apartment block, please leave your apartment we are bombing in 20 minutes".
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
jfk69
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:13 pm

2 Dead from Palestinian Rocket Attacks

One person was moderately wounded late Monday night as one of three rockets fired by Gaza terrorists at Ofakim scored a direct hit a private residence. MDA paramedics on the scene were tending to the man's wounds. The rockets were the first to be fired at the western Negev town, located almost 30 kilometers from Gaza.




Rockets from Gaza continue to pound southern Israel

Earlier, two people were killed as Gaza terrorists continued to pound southern Israel with rockets and mortar shells.

One of the fatalities was a woman who had run to a bus stop in Ashdod for cover when the alert went off. The Grad-type rocket killed her and wounded four others - one seriously and three lightly - when it impacted near the bus stop.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Where is the protest??? Where is the uproar???!!?!
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:18 pm

If Only Israel would realize that a terrorist organization becomes powerful under harsh conditions of everyday life. Why do people become radicals? becaus they have no future and they think this is the only way out. How did Nazis show up? Under what conditions was the Soviet Union created? Why does Hamas have so much power? Because those peolple live in a hell hole. If they would have a job and would be able to feed their children, what good reason would 99% of them have to blow eachother up?

Killing over 300 people, including many kids as "collateral damage" will only create more and more people with nothing to lose.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:20 pm



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 191):
Rockets from Gaza continue to pound southern Israel

Earlier, two people were killed as Gaza terrorists continued to pound southern Israel with rockets and mortar shells.

One of the fatalities was a woman who had run to a bus stop in Ashdod for cover when the alert went off. The Grad-type rocket killed her and wounded four others - one seriously and three lightly - when it impacted near the bus stop.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Where is the protest??? Where is the uproar???!!?!

What did you expect would happen?!? It's terrible that this poor woman has to suffer the consequences of an indiscrimiate air strike made by her government. eye for an eye will not solve this, especially when one of the eyes is a terrorist group, and the other is not but acts like one.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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viaggiare
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:20 pm



Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 182):
Quoting BA (Reply 164):
demonstrate calling on their governments to intervene and in the case of Egypt and Jordan, sever diplomatic relations with Israel

Fat chance. Egypt and Jordan have far too much to lose if they do that. Egypt and especially Jordan don't exactly want a flood of refugees

Not only that, but Egypt has maintained peaceful relations with Israel for more than thirty years, regardless of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Jordan for its part hasn't been all too sympathetic to the Palestinians at least since 1970, when Arafat's PLO attempted to overthrow the Hashemite regime.
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:26 pm



Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 188):
Unfortunately, it seems like any country nowadays trying to combat terrorism always ends up in a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't position' at the end of the day.

Depends on how it's done. Under false excuses (see Iraq) then you'll be dammed if you do. But there was nearly no opposition with Afghanistan.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:35 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 190):
IDF continues to warn civilians over the telephone when they´re about to trash a site,
"a missle was launched from the roof of your apartment block, please leave your apartment we are bombing in 20 minutes".

So when an apartment block goes down where do they re house the families? Where do they run to in the most populated area on earth?

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 192):
If Only Israel would realize that a terrorist organization becomes powerful under harsh conditions of everyday life

Exactly . Every bomb that drops creates another family without a Father/Brother/Sister or in some cases all 6 children. The ones left behind are angry and suddenly support things they never used to.

Happened even in Ireland after the British shot dead innocent protesters in Derry. The next day more signed up to the IRA.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 193):
What did you expect would happen?!? It's terrible that this poor woman has to suffer the consequences of an indiscrimiate air strike made by her government

Yes its sad that she is paying for something she may or may not believe in and in my mind an Israeli life lost is the same as a Palestinian life lost. Its just a shame that the Israeli government does not see it that way.

There are enough non man made disasters without making more.
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5196
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:44 pm

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 191):
Where is the protest??? Where is the uproar???!!?!

where is the uproar? let me tell you where it is....its busy being pissed off with the "over the top" response from Israel, 300+ dead on one side and you expect there to be uproar when two die as a result of the aerial bombing conducted by the IDF.

where is the uproar over illegal settlements? where is the uproar when those settlements are built so close to Gaza that they can be hit by Hamas rockets? collateral damage, but that's what you get when you build illegally and so close to Gaza.

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=79727§ionid=351020202

and the US once again veto's UN resolution.

[Edited 2008-12-29 14:47:57]
 
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OA260
Posts: 24088
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:55 pm



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 197):
and the US once again veto's UN resolution.

Do we know if the USA were alone or were there other countries that would have stopped it going through if the US had not have been voting on personal $$$ issues ??
 
KSYR
Posts: 562
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:00 pm



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 197):
where is the uproar over illegal settlements? where is the uproar when those settlements are built so close to Gaza that they can be hit by Hamas rockets? collateral damage, but that's what you get when you build illegally and so close to Gaza.

Going by your logic, every single Palestinian is fair game because they shouldn't be living so close to Hamas, an illegal group.

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