QXatFAT
Topic Author
Posts: 2336
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:15 am

A study done by a graduate from Harvard Univserity shows that teenagers who took a "Virginity Pledge" were just as likley to have pre-maritle sex as any other teenager who did not make a pledge. The only thing shown in the study is that teenagers who took the pledge were MORE likley to have unsave sex (no condom or birth controll).

Most of these pledges are done by people of a Christian faith. I remember being in Jr. High School and taking this pledge at my Church. Looking back at it now it was a big joke. Out of the other 20 or so that took it with me, only myself and two others are still virgins. A pledge isnt worth crap in this day and age. Is signing your name on a little buisness card and wearing a "Purity Ring" really gona keep some girl or guy from having sex? I think not.

Here is the link:

http://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/...ginity-pledge-doesnt-stop-teen-sex
Don't Tread On Me!
 
san747
Posts: 4361
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:57 am

What else is new?

But in all seriousness, it makes a lot of sense. The idea of trying to have teens "pledge" not to do something that comes naturally (and not even giving them the information they need to be safe when they inevitably DO what comes naturally) is foolish and irresponsible.

And just straight up doesn't work, as this and many other studies have shown.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
QFA380
Posts: 2012
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:38 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:57 am

About 2 years ago at my Christian high school they brought in some people that showed us a video and talked about it all.

While we weren't 'forced' to take it, it was pretty much you have to do this.

Everyone who took it and hasn't had sex either wasn't going to anyway, or just hasn't had an opportunity to. There were plenty of people who did take it and I know have had sex. For many of the kids, as you say it was just a big joke, meant nothing to anyone. Personally I didn't really take it seriously at all, what I do is not up to some people who decided to show up to my place of education that day and practically make me take it.

Just on the side, teachers watch this kind of thing. My school is very biased towards the outwardly Christian kids. Often getting higher grades/reports/awards than they deserve and never getting in trouble despite everyone knowing that many are just like everyone else going out getting drunk having sex. But hey grades are pretty important to kids.

Any high school sutdent could tell you that these things mean absolutely nothing.
 
Phoenix9
Posts: 2024
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:25 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:02 am

There is a saying that is very apt in this case:

If you want something done....tell a teenager not to do it  Wink
Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
 
QXatFAT
Topic Author
Posts: 2336
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:14 am



Quoting QFA380 (Reply 2):
While we weren't 'forced' to take it, it was pretty much you have to do this.

A lot of organizations make young Christians think that if they do not take the pledge, they might not really be a Christian. Then you have Youth Pastors and parents pressure kids into doing something that they do not agree with. I know if I actually thought for myself when I made one of these, I wouldn't have.

I in no way promote pre-marital sex and intend on staying a virgin until I am married, but things like this just dont stop anything. Programs don't keep people from doing things, the Bible helps keep people in order. (That is if you are a Christian Bible believing preson)

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 2):
Everyone who took it and hasn't had sex either wasn't going to anyway

True. I didn't need this to say I was going to chose to not have sex before marriage. A ring or a card does not give me some mystical power to keep me from doing it.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
QFA380
Posts: 2012
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:38 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:26 am



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 4):
A lot of organizations make young Christians think that if they do not take the pledge, they might not really be a Christian. Then you have Youth Pastors and parents pressure kids into doing something that they do not agree with. I know if I actually thought for myself when I made one of these, I wouldn't have.

When we its something that you know your parents and teachers want you to do and you honestly couldn't care less about it, you just do it anyway to make them happy. I know it made my mum happy knowing that I did it.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 21694
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:38 am

OMG, we actually agree on something.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7087
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:42 am

Very true. Teen pregnancies is at a high rate.

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
ShyFlyer
Posts: 4698
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:38 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:53 am



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 4):
A lot of organizations make young Christians think that if they do not take the pledge, they might not really be a Christian. Then you have Youth Pastors and parents pressure kids into doing something that they do not agree with. I know if I actually thought for myself when I made one of these, I wouldn't have.

 checkmark  I think these groups would be better served teaching the why behind not having pre-marital sex. Kids reaching puberty are mature enough to get more than the "because I say so" approach.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 21694
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:53 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 7):
Very true. Teen pregnancies is at a high rate.

It's actually dropping and it's at a relatively low rate. Although one in five Latina women in the U.S. will be a mother before age 20. One in FIVE.

The drop is attributed to availability of contraception options to teens. States which make this available as policy tend to see lower teenage pregnancy rates after the introduction of such programs.

The debate is a moral one. The one side says that the priority is to stop teenage pregnancy and STD transmission and that the way to do that is to provide protection and education. The other side says that it doesn't matter whether you lower teenage pregnancy and STD transmission because the ends don't justify the means. They view teenage sex as so fundamentally wrong that accepting it by providing means of protection is even more wrong.

I took an oath to do no harm and to place my patients first. I will harm my patient if she gets pregnant at 15 because I took no action to prevent it when I could have. And this is why I insist on working in states that have no parental notification laws. I would consider violating that sort of confidentiality to be a violation of the Hippocratic Oath itself.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:52 am



Quoting QXatFAT (Thread starter):
A study done by a graduate from Harvard Univserity shows that teenagers who took a "Virginity Pledge" were just as likley to have pre-maritle sex as any other teenager who did not make a pledge.

Shouldn't surprise anyone.

How much more evidence do we need before the "abstinence-only" crowd finally wakes up and realizes that sensible and comprehensive sex education combined with available birth control is the only reliable way to reduce teen pregnancies?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
san747
Posts: 4361
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:09 am



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 4):

I in no way promote pre-marital sex and intend on staying a virgin until I am married, but things like this just dont stop anything.

Exactly. I'm glad you realize that. I'm friends with many people who are very strong Christians and talk about abstinence all the time, but I wonder how many of them realize this obvious fact.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 4):

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 2):
Everyone who took it and hasn't had sex either wasn't going to anyway

True. I didn't need this to say I was going to chose to not have sex before marriage. A ring or a card does not give me some mystical power to keep me from doing it.

Exactly. If you want to be abstinent until marriage, that's a significant enough decision that "reinforcing" it with a pledge isn't going to really do anything because you've already decided you won't have sex.

The only way a pledge would be effective is if you can manage to prevent those who may want to have sex at some point (which is pretty much everyone after about age 16 or so) from actually doing it. And we've all seen how effective that is.

Quoting Mir (Reply 10):

How much more evidence do we need before the "abstinence-only" crowd finally wakes up and realizes that sensible and comprehensive sex education combined with available birth control is the only reliable way to reduce teen pregnancies?

I seriously doubt ANY amount of evidence will convince them, because they choose to ignore human nature. You can control people, you can tell them what's right and wrong, but the fact is, people are people. They are going to have sex. And 95% of them ( http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2006/12/19/index.html ) are going to before marriage.

But because this natural human behavior is seen as unequivocally wrong, we can't take any action that could encourage it... like educate people about birth control and safe sex.  Yeah sure
Scotty doesn't know...
 
QXatFAT
Topic Author
Posts: 2336
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:29 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
OMG, we actually agree on something.

Oh come on Doc, we agree on a few issues. But I will say this one might be the biggest haha  Smile

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 8):
Kids reaching puberty are mature enough to get more than the "because I say so" approach.

Exactly! When you hit a certain age, "because I say so" isnt an acceptable answer and shows the parents wouldnt follow it themselves or they didnt follow it in the first place.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
Although one in five Latina women in the U.S. will be a mother before age 20.

I see this in my own city. With my High School being about 60% hispanic (when I was in High School 2000-2004) majority of the pregnant teens were latinas either Freshman to Junior years. It is not uncommon for people of the hispanic nature to start their families very young but also has to do with poverty and light level on the issue.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
The drop is attributed to availability of contraception options to teens

In my High School, when I was there, the South Campus nurses office had a $0.25 condum machine. Students were in there quite a bit actually getting them. I believe they took it out though because they were alarmed by the number being purchased and students being caught on campus having sex.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
They view teenage sex as so fundamentally wrong that accepting it by providing means of protection is even more wrong

Well you have to understand as well though that Christians believe that pre-marital sex is a sin. Abstanance for one is good to a Christian because you are not commiting fornication/sexual immorality. Also, you have to admit that the best way not to gain an STD it to simply have sex with one partner, your spouse. Not having multiple partners lowers your risk of STD's. Would you not agree with that being the best option verse multiple sex partners having sex multiple times?

Quoting Mir (Reply 10):

Same as above Mir. The Christian crowd teaches abstanance is for 1. not commiting a sin in that area of sexual immorality and 2. the best way to keep from STD's. To me, that is undebateable. Seems very logical. Having no sex lowers your risk to STD's to almost 0 compaired to those who have 5 different partners in High School and have sex multiple times with even the variable with how many different partners their partners had had.

Quoting San747 (Reply 11):
Exactly. I'm glad you realize that. I'm friends with many people who are very strong Christians and talk about abstinence all the time, but I wonder how many of them realize this obvious fact.

Well I am one of those strong Christians who promote abstinence. I do not ask the Youth I help teach though to wear this Purity Bracelet and Purity Ring and sign this Purity Card. Then the spirits will help you! That is animisum at its finest. The obvious fact is sex is natural and the desire will be there. What is controllable though is when you choose to have that sex the first time.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:16 pm



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 12):
The Christian crowd teaches abstanance is for 1. not commiting a sin in that area of sexual immorality and 2. the best way to keep from STD's. To me, that is undebateable. Seems very logical. Having no sex lowers your risk to STD's to almost 0 compaired to those who have 5 different partners in High School and have sex multiple times with even the variable with how many different partners their partners had had.

I can accept the reasoning behind #1, though it would strike me as being rather pushy with your beliefs to not teach something that you don't agree with.

But I can't accept the reasoning behind #2, because abstinence-only sex ed is not the best way to prevent kids from getting STDs. This is because it just doesn't work - it ignores the fundamental reality that teen sex is going to happen, and that any solution to the problem needs to work within that framework. It is true that abstinence is the only sure way to avoid STDs, but this information on its own isn't very helpful.

When the Christian crowd teaches abstinence-only, they are trusting that kids will ignore their nature and instead obediently listen to adults. But when have kids ever done that? They haven't, and, to paraphrase Einstein, trying it again and again when it's been proven that it doesn't work is insanity.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 21694
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:39 pm



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 12):

Well you have to understand as well though that Christians believe that pre-marital sex is a sin. Abstanance for one is good to a Christian because you are not commiting fornication/sexual immorality. Also, you have to admit that the best way not to gain an STD it to simply have sex with one partner, your spouse. Not having multiple partners lowers your risk of STD's. Would you not agree with that being the best option verse multiple sex partners having sex multiple times?

I agree. I also agree that practicing abstinence is the only way to 100% prevent pregnancy and STD's.

Except that when abstinence is held up to the same standards as condoms, which take into account misuse, it is not nearly as good because, as Jocelyn Elders said, "abstinence breaks more easily than condoms do."

But my goal is to keep teenagers STD-free and pregnancy-free. I CANNOT stop them from having sex. The evidence shows that. So I have to ensure that they suffer as little harm from that as possible.

I also believe in sexual empowerment. Do you have any HOW MANY teenage girls have told me they are sexually active and then when I ask if they are enjoying sex, say something like "Eh. It's a'ight." That's when I light into them.

I tell them that sex shouldn't be "a'ight." It should be WONDERFUL. And if it isn't wonderful then they aren't doing it for the right reasons. That that man is a guest in her body and that if he is going to be in there, then SHE makes the rules. The rules should include the use of condoms and proper gentlemanly behavior (i.e. not using her as a masturbation sleeve).

In a patient population in which teenage boys try to get girls pregnant to prove their manhood and in which teenage girls judge their worth based on whether the boy will stay with them, sexual empowerment can do a lot more to curb teenage STD and pregnancy rates than mere education alone.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:14 pm



Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 8):

[quote=QXatFAT,reply=12]Exactly! When you hit a certain age, "because I say so" isnt an acceptable answer and shows the parents wouldnt follow it themselves or they didnt follow it in the first place.

I think that "because I say so" is the lazy answer at every age. I think it is more effective to give a short why when setting expectations or rules. I think that helps kids develop an understanding of behavioral consequences. If I run into the road without looking I can be hit by a car and injured. If I am mean to people they won't want to be around me. If I have unprotected sex I am at risk for disease or pregnancy. If I have sex when I am not prepared for it or for the wrong reasons I disrespect myself and the consequences can be a diminished sense of self worth and heartbreak.

I think people who understand the consequences of actions tend to make healthier choices than those who do them just because they've been told to.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:28 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 15):
I think people who understand the consequences of actions tend to make healthier choices than those who do them just because they've been told to.

 checkmark  And this is why invoking religion in sex education isn't effective - it is the ultimate in "because I said so".

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
QXatFAT
Topic Author
Posts: 2336
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:49 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
though it would strike me as being rather pushy with your beliefs to not teach something that you don't agree with.

Care to explain? I am not fully understanding.

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
it ignores the fundamental reality that teen sex is going to happen,

So what is the case for a person like me then that has chosen to stay selibate until marriage not only because of a moral stance but also because I have a Biblical worldview? I havent had sex and havent given into the fundamental reality that your talking about. I have the desire yes, but I can keep the desire from developing into an action of me having sexual intercorse.

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
When the Christian crowd teaches abstinence-only, they are trusting that kids will ignore their nature and instead obediently listen to adults

Well the Christian crowd should be teaching the Christian stance of Christian life. What I mean by this is the Christian life teaches no sexual immorality. Sexual immorality is but not limited to: sexual intercourse, masturbation, pornography, etc. The Christian stance should teach that because you are a Christian, the Christian life should look like this. Not that their stance before God is lost and they are no longer Christian when they do this or that they are horrible people because they have done it. More often then not, the people who run these Purity Confrences were teenagers who had premaritle sex or had some kind of fondeling or something of the sort. So then they must not have really been a Christian then.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
I ask if they are enjoying sex

I dont know what its like being a doctor, but is this a normal question that a doctor should be asking a teenage girl?  Confused

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
And this is why invoking religion in sex education isn't effective

From a non-Christian worldview this would be true. But in a Christain worldview, it is effective as long as the Christian teenager has a true understanding of Scripture and the Christian life. When they do not know the fundamentals of Christian life, then they fall into things like this. Case in point is my brother. He did not know the fundamentals of Christian life and had pre-marital sex and now has a kid at age 19 with his girlfriend.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 15):
I think that helps kids develop an understanding of behavioral consequences

Not only that, but a respect for authority as well. I know my parents growing me up in a lifestyle where they did not just give me the "because I said so" but a example or reason why they say that gave me the mind set of seeking wisdom on certain decisions.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:51 pm

It really worked for Bristol Palin.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
And this is why invoking religion in sex education isn't effective - it is the ultimate in "because I said so".

-Mir

You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4718
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:41 am



Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 8):
I think these groups would be better served teaching the why behind not having pre-marital sex.

All too often the true reason is "because the Bible says so", which translates into "I want to be in control of your life".



I have not yet met a person who's told me I should stay abstinent that hasn't themselves, and it's not because of regret. In fact, the only people I know to have lost their virginity to their spouse (it was pre-marital, but they are married now with a child) both say it was right for them, but would never try to force that individual belief on someone else.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
san747
Posts: 4361
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:00 am



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 17):

So what is the case for a person like me then that has chosen to stay selibate until marriage not only because of a moral stance but also because I have a Biblical worldview? I havent had sex and havent given into the fundamental reality that your talking about. I have the desire yes, but I can keep the desire from developing into an action of me having sexual intercorse.

That's great that you have that self-control, and if everyone in the world was like you, then there would be no problem with abstinence-only sex education. But unfortunately, you are in the vast minority. 65-ish percent of high schoolers will have sex by the time they graduate, and ultimately, 95% of Americans (as cited by that article I linked to in the first reply) are going to have sex before they are married.

Therefore, you have account for that, and include safety, birth control, and contraception into the discussion about sex. There's nothing wrong with saying abstinence is the BEST way to avoid pregnancy, STDs, etc, but it's irresponsible to not inform kids about what they need to do to lower that risk if they DO have sex.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
QXatFAT
Topic Author
Posts: 2336
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:24 am



Quoting San747 (Reply 20):
But unfortunately, you are in the vast minority.

This is true expecially in the Christian crowd. As a Christian, if you can live out the Christian life in a Biblical worldview instead of sacrificing your Biblical worldview for a Post-Modern worldview, then it is a whole lot easyer to keep abstinant.

Quoting San747 (Reply 20):
Therefore, you have account for that, and include safety, birth control, and contraception into the discussion about sex.

One thing to keep in mind though is that for Chrsitians (and I keep emphisising this), you MUST teach abstinance as the correct form of anything because Scripture's stance on pre-marital sex. When they get older, when sexual activity normally starts, giving them the education on Chrsitian life and what Scripture says and then later on explain the safe sex practices after marriage, that might be the better route. Without establishing the Biblical worldivew and christian life though, it is hopeless.

For non-Chrsitians, I can not hold them to the same standard as me. For someone who does not believe in God or does but is not a Chrsitian, they can not have the Biblical worldivew. Although my morals are against pre-marital sex, I can not hold them to my same standard. I can only hold fellow Chrsitians to the Biblical worldivew and teach abstinance. To any other everyday non-believer, I can not teach then and hold them to that standard.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
san747
Posts: 4361
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:45 am



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 21):
For non-Chrsitians, I can not hold them to the same standard as me. For someone who does not believe in God or does but is not a Chrsitian, they can not have the Biblical worldivew. Although my morals are against pre-marital sex, I can not hold them to my same standard. I can only hold fellow Chrsitians to the Biblical worldivew and teach abstinance. To any other everyday non-believer, I can not teach then and hold them to that standard.

Well that is very mature, and I wish more of the stronger Christians were like you and felt that way.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 21694
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:04 pm



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 17):
So what is the case for a person like me then that has chosen to stay selibate until marriage not only because of a moral stance but also because I have a Biblical worldview?

You are a rare exception. You and people like you comprise less than about 5% of the North American population.

How old are you, QX?

I respect your decision; it gives you a few things you never have to worry about. But, as you maturely point out, you are a rare one.

So we agree that abstinence-only education is only going to make things worse.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
QXatFAT
Topic Author
Posts: 2336
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:56 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
How old are you, QX?

I am 22.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
So we agree that abstinence-only education is only going to make things worse.

I agree that abstinence only education is correct for a Biblical worldview but MUST be accompanied by safe sex practices. For a non-believer, abstience can be mentioned but can not be expected to be followed.

Hey Doc, in your opinion, do you think it is the parents responsibility to teach their kids about sex or the schools? And what I mean is the safe sex practices and also the reasonings/responsibilities.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
User avatar
akiss20
Posts: 942
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:50 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:15 pm



Quoting San747 (Reply 20):
That's great that you have that self-control, and if everyone in the world was like you, then there would be no problem with abstinence-only sex education.

I have a bit of a problem with this statement. Just because someone has sex before marriage doesn't mean they don't have self-control. I personally do not believe in waiting for marriage. I think an individual can decide for himself when he is ready for sex (using he as that is the proper english, but obviously this applies to both sexes) and if he does not believe in waiting for marriage, that is no less acceptable. I find marriage to be some arbitrary ceremony that really doesn't define a person's readiness for sex. I will have sex before marriage as a)I do not want to get married b)I cannot legally get married anyway (well at least in some 48 odd states). Having sex before marriage isn't an indicator of weakness or lack of will power.
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
 
Charles79
Posts: 1119
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:35 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:17 pm

I pretty much agree with most of the posts in here, the best way to teach kids about sex is by explaining what it is, what its consequences are, and what are the options. No teaching method is 100% effective but by limiting the information given to the kids we do more harm than good.

Interesting to note that I was raised in an extremely conservative Christian church which preached abstinence only. Being gay I chose not to remain in said church (not that I regreted it, I was rather relieved to leave all that nonsense behind) but I still ended up waiting until I was 26 to have sex. I waited that long not because of some religious belief or anything like that, rather I decided to wait until I was ready and found myself in the right relationship. It helped me tremendously though that I attended a school which had a comprehensive sex education class which not only alerted me about things like STDs, AIDS, and the like but also discussed the psychological aspects of having sex. On the other hand most of my friends who remained in said church and were not exposed to sex education ended up having sex before graduating from High School, many of them either having kids or getting infected with STDs.
 
san747
Posts: 4361
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:45 pm



Quoting AKiss20 (Reply 25):

I have a bit of a problem with this statement. Just because someone has sex before marriage doesn't mean they don't have self-control. I personally do not believe in waiting for marriage. I think an individual can decide for himself when he is ready for sex (using he as that is the proper english, but obviously this applies to both sexes) and if he does not believe in waiting for marriage, that is no less acceptable. I find marriage to be some arbitrary ceremony that really doesn't define a person's readiness for sex. I will have sex before marriage as a)I do not want to get married b)I cannot legally get married anyway (well at least in some 48 odd states). Having sex before marriage isn't an indicator of weakness or lack of will power.

I agree with that... I phrased what I said to QXatFAT wrong. I was saying it's commendable that he made the decision to stay abstinent and actually HAS the true willpower and self-control to wait.

In general though, I don't feel that it reflects a lack of willpower or self-control to have sex before marriage. Lord knows I and a lot of other people have... and of course, I've always thought it was a little bizarre how there's this idea that sex was this "horrible" thing that is to be avoided until marriage, when it "magically" becomes okay.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
QXatFAT
Topic Author
Posts: 2336
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 pm



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 26):
Interesting to note that I was raised in an extremely conservative Christian church which preached abstinence only

But based on Scripture and the Bible, they are correct in their teaching. On a world aspect that does not have a Biblical worldview, it is not correct for them. Your church is not in the wrong for teaching this by any means.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 26):
No teaching method is 100% effective but by limiting the information given to the kids we do more harm than good.

 checkmark  agreed! This goes for anything that not all things are 100% effective.

Quoting AKiss20 (Reply 25):

The context of this discussion and the article is talking mainly about Christian's. Things are different for those who do not believe or accept Chrsitianity.

Quoting San747 (Reply 27):
I phrased what I said to QXatFAT wrong. I was saying it's commendable that he made the decision to stay abstinent and actually HAS the true willpower and self-control to wait.

I understood what you ment  Wink
A lot of things are commendable but does not make them 100% correct for everyone universal.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
san747
Posts: 4361
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:25 pm



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 28):

A lot of things are commendable but does not make them 100% correct for everyone universal.

Very, very true.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 21694
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:52 am



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 24):

Hey Doc, in your opinion, do you think it is the parents responsibility to teach their kids about sex or the schools? And what I mean is the safe sex practices and also the reasonings/responsibilities.

I think it SHOULD be the parents' responsibility, but they often don't. And frankly, sex is a biological fact, it is a part of health, it is part of life and so it should be covered. The idea of a health class without covering sex and sexuality strikes me as absurd. It would be like a biology class not covering evol... whoops!  Wink  whiteflag 
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
MD-90
Posts: 7836
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:55 am

The Baptists (which have a name for everything) call it True Love Waits. It's nice that they make an effort but it's a very difficult pledge for many to keep in today's society.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:15 am



Quoting QXatFAT (Thread starter):

My favorite is Leno has mentioned that someone makes and sells "Virgin Till 'I Do'." underwear, and Leno's comment was "if you can read the underwear, it's already too late".

Quoting QXatFAT (Thread starter):
Is signing your name on a little buisness card and wearing a "Purity Ring" really gona keep some girl or guy from having sex? I think not.

My sister is obsessed with Jonas Brothers and commented that they wear purity rings. My dad and I laughed. Like that will last once these teenage kids get out to Hollywood.....


Oh well. Pre-marital sex is too far gone to fight in today's society so I think proper education is best. I think the teaching method should be taught that "Abstience is the only 100% safe method, but if you're going to do it, use protection". My view on pre-marital sex is "to each their own". You take your chances and you should accept any and all consequences. While it's not something I advertise all the time, I'm not ashamed either to say that I'm still a virgin. Will I wait till marraige? I don't know. But I like to think I'm someone who puts my money where my mouth is and I control myself. I don't have the financial resources to raise a kid and I don't believe in abortion so I'm not going to take the chance at getting a girl pregnant and risk having to make the decision with her of her getting one. I'm also still a virgin because I want the first time to be with a women I truly love; not wasted on a one night stand.

In a nutshell - do want you want and I'll do what I want. But don't expect me to pay for your mistakes.  Smile
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:31 am



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 32):
I'm also still a virgin because I want the first time to be with a women I truly love; not wasted on a one night stand.

You can make up all the excuses you want to, but the fact of the matter is: you go to ERAU.  Wink

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:46 am

From what I've seen:

Dudes who take virginity pledges can't get laid, and girls that take virginity pledges are very easily influenced. That's what I learned in college.

ake up all the excuses you want to, but the fact of the matter is: you go to ERAU.[/quote]

That's gutsy, David. Truly gutsy. Hats off. You call it like it is even though you go to the same school. Nice job, my man.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
MOBflyer
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:42 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:53 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
And this is why I insist on working in states that have no parental notification laws. I would consider violating that sort of confidentiality to be a violation of the Hippocratic Oath itself.

So you actually think that you would be doing less harm by allowing a young and frightened young lady to make a life changing and outlook altering decision without the input and support of her family than otherwise? I fail to understand.
 
flybyguy
Posts: 1418
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:05 am



Quoting San747 (Reply 11):
Exactly. I'm glad you realize that. I'm friends with many people who are very strong Christians and talk about abstinence all the time, but I wonder how many of them realize this obvious fact.

I grew up with and hung around very devoute Christians. I can tell you that a lot of so-called Christians taking this abstinence pledge aren't really devout at all. It's really just religion being forced upon them and so because of opportunity and living circumstances they accept it, but probably don't really care for it. It's sort of a highly organized bout of peer pressure. I can say that in the truly devout there's a stronger sense of mental fortitude and between them a forceful spiritual support structure that keeps them mostly out of trouble.

IMHO I don't think this abstinence thing works for the mainstream because there is quite a great deal of sexual temptation in the world... magazines, movies and the internet promote sexuality abundantly and cheaply. In the face of this, no teenager going through puberty, with or without God can resist.

I believe that sex should be confined to marriage or at the very least a loving and monogamous relationship. I have lead my life as such and I will not force my views on others who are not willing to take up that sort of lifestyle (something that evangelicals have quite a great deal to learn). No one can argue that abstinence isn't effective against STDs or premature pregnancy if practiced. However, any sort of abstinence education should be supported by sex education. Both will provide youth with the mental equipment to make smart choices when it comes to their sexuality.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 21694
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:48 am



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 35):

So you actually think that you would be doing less harm by allowing a young and frightened young lady to make a life changing and outlook altering decision without the input and support of her family than otherwise? I fail to understand.

It is not my job to judge who she uses for emotional support. It is my job to see to it that she is safe. If she is afraid that she is going to be abused if her parents are involved, I am harming her by involving them.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
QXatFAT
Topic Author
Posts: 2336
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:49 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
I think it SHOULD be the parents' responsibility, but they often don't

And I agree with that statement 100%. Sex is such a taboo subject for adults to teenagers that parents dont wana talk about it and some teachers are as well.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
It would be like a biology class not covering evol... whoops!

Glad you stopped  Wink

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 31):
The Baptists (which have a name for everything) call it True Love Waits

This goes far beyond the Baptists. All Christian denominations do it.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 32):
Pre-marital sex is too far gone to fight in today's society

I disagree. It is never to late to be able to teach something that can still be grasped and followed by people. Its all in the presintation.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 32):
I want the first time to be with a women I truly love; not wasted on a one night stand.

And that makes two of us. To me, the best gift I can give my wife is the honor of being the first and only. Shes not just "another girl".

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 34):
That's what I learned in college.

I'd say you learned something that isnt universal and absolute truth  Smile so an opinion, good.  Smile

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 36):
really just religion being forced upon them and so because of opportunity and living circumstances they accept it

What Christians and non-Christians have in common, they both forget that Christians are not perfect. As Christians, they should know that all still have a sin nature. They fail to realize this because they think they themselves are this perfect angel. We like to call those the Legalists. Those people are the corruption in the Church today. Once people can get past the fact that just because your a Christian, that doesnt mean you stop sinning.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 36):
with or without God can resist.

Wrong. So far 2 people on here are proof that the statement is false  Smile
Don't Tread On Me!
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9962
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:11 pm

The real issue is not moral but one of control. The bible teaches about that inner voice when he comes knocking on your door, he does not break it down but waits for you to open it.
If you were to poll most religious ministers today, if they could, they would like a law mandating that all persons be christians, as it is the right and only way to go, totally missing that their Lord and Saviour died to ensure that we had a choice to choose not to have it chosen for us, hence the issue of control. Note that the same principle apples to religions other than christianity.

The failing of most religious authorities today is that they want to mandate religion by force, schools should be allowed to teach education, all types especially public schools, moving extremisim into the public arena is where most problems arise. Have christian schools which only teach christian principles, if you want to do so in public schools you also have to teach the opposing points of view, the same applies to contraception if you have a private school its your choice, public is another issue.

The grey area especially in countries like Europe which have mandated social and health benefits, the public purse pays for the effects of the failures of teaching on both sides religious or otherwise, so if the public purse has to pay, then the public gets a say in what you teach and what access teen have to sexual material, if those who are educated privately but still fail refuse to use public funded health facilities the point would be moot. I think this is one reason why the religious right in the US still has such strong views, because the US does not have a national health policy as in Europe.

All of that still fails to addres the key reality, it is a personal choice whether a teen has sex or not, peer pressure exist, but that is across the board, it can easily be used to push non-activity as well.
 
QXatFAT
Topic Author
Posts: 2336
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:41 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 39):
The bible teaches about that inner voice when he comes knocking on your door, he does not break it down but waits for you to open it.

I really dont know what your talking about here.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 39):
if they could, they would like a law mandating that all persons be christians

All though Christians would love a world of Christians, it is the wrong viewpoint to make countries obey a Christian law. They never have obeyed a Christian law nor will they.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 39):
if you want to do so in public schools you also have to teach the opposing points of view,

Private schools teach what they want. That is why people pay to go there. Public schools should teach what the people want. It is only fair to teach both sides of every story and give the students a choice. Not feeding them down their throat of what the teacher believes. If students want that and parents, then send them to Private school.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:06 am



Quoting Par13del (Reply 39):
so if the public purse has to pay, then the public gets a say in what you teach and what access teen have to sexual material

The public pays for education, which means the public should get a say in education too.


Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 38):
I disagree. It is never to late to be able to teach something that can still be grasped and followed by people. Its all in the presintation.

It'll be a hell of an uphill battle in today's culture.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 36):
IMHO I don't think this abstinence thing works for the mainstream because there is quite a great deal of sexual temptation in the world... magazines, movies and the internet promote sexuality abundantly and cheaply. In the face of this, no teenager going through puberty, with or without God can resist.

I've been able to. It's all about self-control, and being able to put into practice what you believe in.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9962
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:15 am



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 40):
I really dont know what your talking about here.

Its the founding principle of how one becomes a true believer, personally accepting the teachings or principles of your stated religion of your own free will, not being forced to accept them, something also to do with faith in ones believe, that cannot be forced.
 
QXatFAT
Topic Author
Posts: 2336
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:26 am



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 41):
It'll be a hell of an uphill battle in today's culture.

The possibility is still there though. As long as humans have a brain, then that means they can think which then shows me, their is still hope.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 42):

I asked for the explanation because the one prior didnt make sense to me of where you were going. Now it make more sense to me. Thank you. In being a Christian who is devoted to his religion, I can attest you can not force religion on anyone, although the Church today (some of not all) believes that non-believers need to listen to the Christian life teachings and follow them. Tacked onto that as well is that some Christians believe that in order to be saved, one must get their life together first and start to live a good life. Rubbish is all it is. Once the Christian Church realizes that legalism and this "do this and that or else" teaching is a hindrence and an abomination, then Christians might start to have a better light in this world.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:40 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 7):
Very true. Teen pregnancies is at a high rate.

No, teen pregnancies have been falling.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
So we agree that abstinence-only education is only going to make things worse.

Actually no, and I would like to see this study before we place too much stock in it. There are plenty of studies that show that the abstinence-onlys are not any less likely to eventually have sex BUT they are delaying their first encounters. The average age of first encounters has risen consistantly in those areas.
Interesting that those whos knees jerk at the thought of an alternative to the more liberal methods never mention that tidbit.
 
san747
Posts: 4361
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:16 am



Quoting Mham001 (Reply 44):

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 7):
Very true. Teen pregnancies is at a high rate.

No, teen pregnancies have been falling.

That's wonderful, but the US still has the highest rate of teen pregnancies in any industrialized country.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 44):

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
So we agree that abstinence-only education is only going to make things worse.

Actually no, and I would like to see this study before we place too much stock in it. There are plenty of studies that show that the abstinence-onlys are not any less likely to eventually have sex BUT they are delaying their first encounters. The average age of first encounters has risen consistantly in those areas.
Interesting that those whos knees jerk at the thought of an alternative to the more liberal methods never mention that tidbit.

Yes, even the "liberal" studies do show that first encounters are delayed... by an average of six months, which is pretty much insignificant. And when the kids that have only been exposed to abstinence-only education DO have sex, they are statistically more than TWICE as likely not to use a condom or any form of birth control or contraception.

That's not a knee-jerk reaction, and I would put plenty of stock in it, because just about any reputable study on this subject will (and has) come to the same conclusion.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 21694
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:22 am



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 38):

And I agree with that statement 100%. Sex is such a taboo subject for adults to teenagers that parents dont wana talk about it and some teachers are as well.

Not so much that. But just awkward.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 44):
Actually no, and I would like to see this study before we place too much stock in it. There are plenty of studies that show that the abstinence-onlys are not any less likely to eventually have sex BUT they are delaying their first encounters. T

And those encounters are only delayed by about 6 months AND they are FAR more likely to be unprotected. Abstinence-only students also were more likely to "delay" intercourse by engaging in oral and anal sex.

My specialty is adolescent medicine, Mham. I have you outgunned here; this is my career.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
808TWA
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:54 am

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:29 pm

Why does sex education, body parts and nudity etc, have to be such a big taboo and so damn complicated especially in North America? No wonder there are so many issues with teens getting pregnant and their lifes changed forever.

Take the religious aspect out of it and teach reality to our young folk! Education about what does what, what goes where and what the resulting outcomes can be, whether it's preganancy or disease should be taught from a young age......Once that mission is complete, then move onto what your own personal religious beliefs entail and what expectations as a parent you expect from your child and guide them accordingly.

Sex is life, no sex=end of our species. Sex will happen no matter what.

Practicing abstinence is a proud attitude to behold, however it's a personal choice and should only be preached once sex education has been completely and fully explained to our young folk.

Sex education is simple....Religion just complicates it.
Love is in the air, so practice safe flying
 
QXatFAT
Topic Author
Posts: 2336
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Study: Virginity Pledges Don't Work

Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:33 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 46):
Not so much that. But just awkward.

I do agree with this as well. When a teenager reaches that "certain age" they dont want to hear their mom talk about boobs and dad talk about their junk. That is what makes it awkward is if your friends are talking about it, you dont want to hear it from your parents.

Quoting 808TWA (Reply 47):
Why does sex education, body parts and nudity etc, have to be such a big taboo and so damn complicated especially in North America?

Because in our American culture nudity is NOT a part of every day life. Sure we are naked when we are in the shower and getting dressed but seeing nudity is not a part of every day American culture.

Quoting 808TWA (Reply 47):
Education about what does what, what goes where and what the resulting outcomes can be, whether it's preganancy or disease should be taught from a young age

In a Christian context, this would not acceptable because they would see that as encouraging sex. Eh, its there so why not do it. The spiking of intrest maybe? A Christians point of view (as I am a Christian I can give this), they would rather teach their kids about the Christian life. Once you start going over the Christian life and the stance against sexual immorality, then you can get into what sexual immorality is and what it intails. Thats where the education comes. This is for CHRISTIANS not for everyone else. What works for you can work for you, and what they believe, let them practice.
Don't Tread On Me!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: JJJ, tommy1808 and 65 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos