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EI787
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Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:09 am

Continuation of Part 2: https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ms/non_aviation/read.main/2022898/


Please ensure you keep in mind the Forum Rules when you post in this thread, particularly rule 1a and b:

a. Please respect the opinions of others and choose your words wisely. Each user has their own point of view, and these views must be respected.

b. Please word all criticism, whether of another user's opinion...a political topic, etc., in a constructive manner. Criticism which serves no purpose other than to incite or insult other members will be deleted and your account possibly suspended.


Many thanks.

[Edited 2008-12-29 19:11:23]
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:40 am

So, the death toll exceeds 375 people now , and someone in the other thread called for an uproar on one Israeli woman killed in retaliation. Now reports are that 4 other Israelis have died. 375 to 4 ratio ... this is exactly why I think Israel's strike was too much. And these number are going to make more and more people angry, creating the perfect scenario for more terrorists.
And I still believe that the strike did virtually nothing against Hamas, and certainly did nothing towards ending the violence ... and oh wait, I might have been right

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081230/...on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

First line there: Defiant Hamas hits Israel with dozens of rockets

at least the UN, for whatever its worth. condemned the strikes as "excessive and demanded an immediate cease-fire". The US of course is " "vigorously engaged" in trying to restore a cease-fire." (wonder if they would say something soooo strong had the death toll been the other way round?).

My first post on the first thread was "Great job Israel, world peace is one step closer now"

500 posts later, I'm even more convinced that Israel has screwed up big time (and no, that does not make me anti semite)
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Falcon84
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:53 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 1):
So, the death toll exceeds 375 people now , and someone in the other thread called for an uproar on one Israeli woman killed in retaliation.

So the one Israeli death-a civilian, mind you-isn't worth the trouble, my friend? And, again, this isn't a numbers game. Hamas broke the truce by firing rockets into Israel. It's about the zillionth time they've broken a truce. When is enough of that crap enough? How long should Israel have to put up with it. At what point, in your esteemed estimation, does Israel say "enough is enough, we're not going to put up with you, Hamas, anymore?"

Israel has every right to do what they've done. They've put up with these bandits for years, and, sooner or later, with such groups out there like Hamas, this was bound to happen.

Now, what I think about what can and should happen to get a peace:

1. There should be a Palestine. The Palestinians have been the Middle East punching bag, from both the Israelis AND THE ARABS, for decades now. They deserve a nation of their own, but they can't get off without conditions here.

2. All terrorist groups in the region-not just in Palestine-must be disarmed, COMPLETELY. Arab government should be held accountable for any terrorist activity being launched against anyone from their soil. A peace cannot be conculded until groups like Hamas and Hezbollah are dismantled.

3. Israel must cease building settlements in disputed territory. This is simply not a way to try and make peace. Let the territory be negotiated, and then Israel can build all the settlements it wants-within prescribed borders.

4. Neither side will relinquish their claims to Jeruselem. They just won't. It should be made and International Open City-The City of God, if you will, being the birthplace of the great Religions that branced off from Abraham. It should be administered by a neutral party, like the UN, and be a free and open city to anyone in the region. It should be no one's capital.

5. If the peace can only be guaranteed by the armed forces of the United States and the West, so be it. That is intended more for Iran and, by default as well, Syria, than anyone. If they invade Israel, Israel may, by treaty, request the assistance of the United States if they so wish.

6. All Arab states, BEFORE an agreement is reached, must ratify, in writing, Israel's right to exist, peacefully, behind borders set within a final treaty. And, after the treaty is signed, full diplomatic recognition is to be accorded to Israel, and visa-versa.


This is the only way to to it. Fair, with both sides, not just Israel, making concessions. Concessions need to be made on both sides on borders and the like. It cannot be one-sided.

But until the Arab world does this, I support Israel's right to take the fight to those who keep throwing those rockets at them.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
So the one Israeli death-a civilian, mind you-isn't worth the trouble, my friend?

On the contrary, the person calling for an uproar for the Israeli citizen dead does not condemn Israel's attacks. That was the point I was trying to make. Most of the people defending Israel's actions call the 300 dead "collateral damage", yet t¡more importance is given to the Israeli woman. I say they are all the same, ALL are unjustified deaths.
Having said that, I still fail to see how Israel's actions are justified. Not their fight against Hamas, but this extremely use of excessive force, which has acomplished nothing but the grounds for new terrorists.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
All terrorist groups in the region-not just in Palestine-must be disarmed, COMPLETELY

I think everyone here is agreeing on this, and probably would extend to all terrorist groups in the world. But this attack has probably created many more terrorosts than the ones that were killed.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
But until the Arab world does this, I support Israel's right to take the fight to those who keep throwing those rockets at them.

Thay are both throwing rockets at eachother. The difference is the quantity and the death toll, but they are both doing the same exact thing. So how can you support one and not the other?
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
KSYR
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:21 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
Thay are both throwing rockets at eachother. The difference is the quantity and the death toll, but they are both doing the same exact thing. So how can you support one and not the other?

They aren't. Israel is targeting Hamas. Hamas is targeting civilians. Hamas fired first.
 
jm017
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:23 am

"That would certainly solve 85% of the problem, in fact all of the Arab nations, including Syria and Saudi Arabia have agreed to this. The Palestinians would get no support from any Islamic nation if they got back the land from 1967 and still shot rockets, suicide bombings, ect."

Is this true? If so, then no there really is no good explanation for continued conflict. Israel has no right to any lands outside the "Green Line" (1949 armistice lines)
"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
 
rjpieces
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:28 am



Quoting JM017 (Reply 8):
Is this true?

If only it were so simple, it would have been done long ago.

People like Jacobin don't offer any evidence that what happened in Gaza won't repeat itself if Israel withdraws from the West Bank. There is little chance of Israel pulling out of the West Bank if it means rockets and fighting, but this time much closer to the heart of Israel than Gaza.

If only it were as simple as Jacobin and his ilk make it out to be...HIs line of thinking is "There is an occupation; end the occupation and you end the conflict." I wish it were that simple, and I'd be the first one calling for Israel's immediate withdrawal from all of the West Bank and East Jerusalem if it were.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:39 am

As I said before this is the solution. Israel would never except it though.



 
Falcon84
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:43 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
Thay are both throwing rockets at eachother.

Wrong. Israel is only firing their weapons because Hamas broke the truce. Hamas started this, not Israel. And I don't think they'll come through this conflict in Gaza like they did the last one. They're going to get seriously hurt in this conflct.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
As I said before this is the solution. Israel would never except it though.

No they would not, because it doesn't give them security from their enemies. I wouldn't accept it either.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
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viaggiare
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:48 am



Quoting JM017 (Reply 8):
Israel has no right to any lands outside the "Green Line" (1949 armistice lines)

Perhaps it's time for a short, painless, and informative history lesson going back several thousands of years.
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:48 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
because it doesn't give them security from their enemies.

It gives them every security if it was a internationally regognised peace deal and a final settlement backed by the UN and major powers. Israel gets to keep all its major cities and a decent amount of coastline.
 
mham001
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:53 am

If I knew that I had a neighbor who could blow me to bits at will, I would not be STUPID enough to keep throwing rocks at his house.
 
jcs17
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:56 am

If there were any purely innocent civilian deaths, I feel bad. However, I put that number at 35... max. As we have learned numerous times, UN reports are about as accurate as Hamas reports, although the UN likes to overestimate by 10-20 dead just so they can have the continued support of the fine, free, and tolerant countries of Brunei and Oman.

I don't quite get it. Hamas launches continuous rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel for three months and Israel is supposed to do what?

A) Give a Hamas-controlled government more land

B) Grin and bear it

C) Beg for a make-out session with Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, as Iran is Hamas' daddy

D) All of the above

Actually, Israel has shown remarkable/horrendous restraint. The simple fact is that Hamas is not interested in governing through peace and mediation.

Again, Hamas isn't quite interested in peace. They are more interested with destroying a country than finding a peaceful resolution. I'm not a fan of Michael Savage, the radio host, but where were the shots of the mutilated, shot-ridden bodies arriving in hospital after the Mumbai attacks? That's funny we see plenty of shots from Gaza, but few from Mumbai...
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:01 am



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 15):
However, I put that number at 35... max

Sorry its way above that just do a search on various news medias.
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:07 am



Quoting KSYR (Reply 7):
They aren't. Israel is targeting Hamas. Hamas is targeting civilians. Hamas fired first.

So let's kill everyone and have a blood fest!! Hamas provokes Israel, Israel kills 300 times more Palestinians, many non even Hamas members giving an image of cold blooded murderers ... geez, who wins? We all know Hamas does not care about civilians, so they did not get hurt by this.
besides, I'm not so sure at who fired first ... a rocket or economic oppression both have the power of killing.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
Wrong. Israel is only firing their weapons because Hamas broke the truce. Hamas started this, not Israel.

read above

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 14):
If I knew that I had a neighbor who could blow me to bits at will, I would not be STUPID enough to keep throwing rocks at his house.

But they do not blow them to bits, they think they do, but others are blown to bits. They in fact create more neighbours that will throw more rocks, and as a plus, they get the entire neighbourhood pissed off.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:11 am

Israel intensfies Gaza assault



Israel has intensified its onslaught on the Gaza Strip, with the latest airstrikes targeting several Hamas government buildings.

With the Israeli assault entering its fourth straight day on Tuesday, at least 350 people have been killed, many of them civilians, and local hospitals have warned they are unable to cope with any more casualties.

Early on Tuesday morning missiles fired from Israeli aircraft hit five ministerial offices in Gaza City as well as buildings belonging to the Islamic University.

Medical workers said at least 10 people had died in the latest raids, with security guards and civilians among those killed.

The attacks came after rockets fired from Palestinian positions killed three Israelis, taking the death toll from Hamas rocket attacks to four since the Israeli offensive began on Saturday.

Wthi the Israeli army amassing infantry and armoured forces along the border in preparation for a possible land invasion, Ban Ki-Moon, the UN secretary-general, added his voice to calls for an end to the violence.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...st/2008/12/200812301315530215.html
 
KSYR
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:19 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 17):
So let's kill everyone and have a blood fest!! Hamas provokes Israel, Israel kills 300 times more Palestinians, many non even Hamas members giving an image of cold blooded murderers ... geez, who wins? We all know Hamas does not care about civilians, so they did not get hurt by this.
besides, I'm not so sure at who fired first ... a rocket or economic oppression both have the power of killing.

That's less than one person for each rocket fired into Israel by Hamas during the past week. And each of those rockets had the potential to kill several people. Not that it matters, Hamas is a threat to Israel's security and has attacked it, and now Israel must respond. Hundreds of Hamas fighters have been killed, so I would say that Israel is doing a good job so far.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:30 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 17):
a rocket or economic oppression both have the power of killing.

Israel is not responsible for the economic well-being of the Gaza Strip. They claimed for YEARS that they wanted autonomy and independence. They get it in 2005 and do what? Beg Israel to supply them with power and supplies.

Why would any rational country supply its enemy with electricity and fuel supplies? Israel goes above and beyond, and gets treated as if it is the worst human rights offender in human history. Pathetic of all of you to sink so low in your hatred of Israel, as you all did in your rants in the other two threads. Why is it that only the Americans are sticking up for Israel? What has happened to the rest of the world?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:35 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
As I said before this is the solution. Israel would never except it though.

The Palestinians would not either, because it removes acces to the water in the north of the old Mandata area and that nicked from Syria and Jordan after the 67 conquest. Apart from that it is fine. Would the downstream country agree to have its surface water supplies controlled by the other. I doubt it, shared access would be needed.

But many thanks and to Damirc and Jacobin for posting the maps that record the dimensions and location of many of the problems.

To those who keep asking why the abandonment of Gaza did not make the Gazans happy, try to remember that abandoning the area was the nearest thing to positive that was done. Israel retained complete control over access, ALL the borders (with a proxy deal with Egypt, probably pushed by the US), including access by sea.

As a number of posters have written, the Gazans were shut in a ghetto, the great concession from Israel was no concession at all to Gazans, it was just a grudging admission that occupying the place was not a tenable plan. But instead of making it a positive for the Gazans, most of the facilities of the settlers were destroyed and the Gazans were given nothing. As someone noted, even their employment opportunities were reduced.

Israels carrot and stick approach is great on sticks, but the carrots seem to be missing. Perhaps the wascally wabbit has eaten them all. And Elmer is left with Kassams!

Par13del From Bahamas, Reply 177, posted Sun Dec 28 2008
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 134):
When you veto instead of trying to come to solutions... the UN becomes ineffective. So when Americans complain so much about the UN, you should also point a finger at yourself

Will not go too far with this UN issue but a couple years ago - before accepting "culpability for the Pan Am bombimg - Libya was nominated to head one of the UN Human Rights Commissions, that is one of the reasons why veto powers exist, to fend off items for political gain rather than human gain. Th veto power also works in the reverse as in resolutions against Israel, Cuba and others.


"The veto power works in reverse". Clearly I need more detail to know how this works. Can you explain, how a country (let us take China) can use its veto to pass a resolution against Israel that is going to be vetoed by the US?

The proud boast of Israel is that it conforms with binding resolutions from the Sec Ccl, but it can do that because it ensures that its friend the US vetoes any that are inconvenient, or has them changed to non-binding resolutions. The latter is the more worrying aspect because it also means that the number of effective vetoes by the US is greatly understated.
 
damirc
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:51 am



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 20):
Israel is not responsible for the economic well-being of the Gaza Strip.

Factually wrong.

Israel as the occupier is bound by the articles 50, 55 and 56 of the Fourth Geneva Convention for the well being of the occupied population. The blockade of aid was a clear breach of the Geneva Convention.

But so is collective punishment (article 33, Fourth Geneva Convention) in regards to demolishing houses of suicide bombers families.

And let's not forget the illegal settlements in the West Bank (article 49, Fourth Geneva Convention).

D.
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:05 am



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 20):
Why would any rational country supply its enemy with electricity and fuel supplies? Israel goes above and beyond, and gets treated as if it is the worst human rights offender in human history. Pathetic of all of you to sink so low in your hatred of Israel, as you all did in your rants in the other two threads. Why is it that only the Americans are sticking up for Israel? What has happened to the rest of the world?

The rest of the world is sick and tired of the violence over there. And many Americans are too. Some of you however seem to support Israel no matter what. I don't hate Israel, I don't hate anyone. I do hate double standards though.

"why is it only the americans ... " becuase your government will do anything for Israel, ANYTHING just to keep them happy. Why? don't know ...

And back to topic, Israel should not have the obligation of supplying anyone with anything, but it also should no be allowed to conduct a blockade. Let the palestinians build there own future and then we'll see where that leads to, because obviously so far Israel has done nothing good over there .. and just to remind you, in this conflict, Israel is the sovreign democratic country with US support.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:14 am



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 23):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 18):
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...st/2008/12/200812301315530215.html

Wow, talk about a news source that likes to infect hatred towards Israelis. Biggest bunch of morons and anti-semites working in the journalism world, IMO.

Yup and here is another bunch of antisemitic bullshit:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051024.html

ANALYSIS / Hamas is hoping for an IDF ground operation
By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondents Tags: IDF, Israel News, Hamas

Three days into Operation Cast Lead, Israel is proposing a diplomatic exit. A ground operation likely looms in an effort to increase the pressure on Hamas. At the same time, however, others argue that the air force is close to exhausting its target bank, so if Hamas can be brought to accept a cease-fire on terms convenient to Israel in the near future it would be better to do so.

......
Just as the Second Lebanon War did, the current war will have far-reaching consequences for the balance of forces in the Middle East. First, it has brought the conflict between Hamas and Egypt into the open, which could influence domestic developments in Egypt. To some degree, it has also reignited the conflict between Arab moderates, led by Egypt and Saudi Arabia, and the extremists, led by non-Arab Iran. In Lebanon, it is already clear which side won. In Gaza, we will learn the answer in the coming days or weeks.

I mean those idiots actually seem to think that Hez won in Lebanon, they should be taken out and waterboarded to make them conform.

Meanwhile that biased pit of vipers Al J has this to say:

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2008/12/2008122912541872883.html
Israelis reflect on 'all-out war'

Israeli troops have been massed along the border with the Gaza Strip [GALLO/GETTY]

As Ehud Barak, the Israeli defence minister, says Israel's military is in an "all-out war" with Hamas in the Gaza Strip, Al Jazeera asked Israelis how they feel about the ongoing offensive and the prospect of a ground incursion.

This is what they had to say:

Adina, 31, Sderot

"I was waiting for this attack for years - I wish they had done this sooner, it would have saved people's lives, on both sides.

No country lets its civilians live under fire. For eight years we have been bombed by terrorists.

I am not in the government or the military and I don't know the right way, but Hamas has to be stopped. I hope they will damage the rocket launchers and teach Hamas that they can't continue, that they can't just hurt civilians and use terror.

If Hamas really cared about their people, it would make sure people aren't hurt. But they don't care. They use people as protection for their own military terrorism - they use kindergartens and houses and send terror attacks out of civilian areas, which endangers their own people.

This town is not functioning now. There is nobody at school. We accept these conditions if it will improve things for us. If they really destroy Hamas it will be worth it. That is what we pray for."

Lotahn, 27, Jerusalem

"This cannot be the answer. There is no way that we can keep fighting to make ourselves safe - the more ammunition we throw at this, the more hatred there will be, and the less the chance for peace.

They are trying to get the Palestinians into a position of utmost despair, but the most likely outcome is that there will be another Palestinian uprising, more armed clashes and a continuation of the struggle. It will just bring about more devastation.


But what would either Haaretz or Al J know about something happening the ME? Happily, I don't have cable so I don't know what Fox is telling you.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:23 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 23):
Why? don't know ...

2 reasons...money & the Jewish vote. Its amazing who the US will get into bed with for the mighty $$$ & votes...just look at some of the terrorists that the CIA has funded to try and take out Castro.
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:39 am



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 25):
just look at some of the terrorists that the CIA has funded to try and take out Castro.

It has been a bit like watching a cartoon with the Road Runner.

I wonder if the Administration now has two lists of Terry Wrists, good ones (in a small white manila folder) and bad ones (in a thick black folder).

One of the problems that both the US and Israel have had in dealing with Hez and Hamas is the "cunning" way that paramilitary organizations are also the main social security organization but also a political force. Eventually the British were smart enough to lever Sein Fein apart from the Provos, but what does the US do with Hamas? It puts the whole lot on a banned list? Very constructive. And then it tells countries like Aus to do the same, and woe upon us, we obey.

I am just listening to Mark Steel about Oliver Cromwell. "His main claim to fame was making revolution popular in England". I guess Hamas has followed the Cromwell rule book. Anyone puzzled about the power of Hamas could do worse than listen to Mark on Cromwell.
http://www.open2.net/marksteel/
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:51 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 26):
good ones (in a small white manila folder) and bad ones (in a thick black folder).

did you watch 638 ways to Kill Castro last night? I can't believe the hide of the Bush clan when it comes to Orlando Bosch!
 
jacobin777
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:20 am



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
Quoting JM017 (Reply 8):
Is this true?

If only it were so simple, it would have been done long ago.

People like Jacobin don't offer any evidence that what happened in Gaza won't repeat itself if Israel withdraws from the West Bank. There is little chance of Israel pulling out of the West Bank if it means rockets and fighting, but this time much closer to the heart of Israel than Gaza.

If only it were as simple as Jacobin and his ilk make it out to be...HIs line of thinking is "There is an occupation; end the occupation and you end the conflict." I wish it were that simple, and I'd be the first one calling for Israel's immediate withdrawal from all of the West Bank and East Jerusalem if it were.

If you want to believe the world is flat and the moon is made from cheese, that's your prerogative.

As I've stated before, basically all Arab nations have accepted the 1967 lines as best lines for the Palestinians. Even the Palestinians believe that's basically the best they can do. Hamas will cease to exist if they go against the will of all of the Arab population as well as the vast majority of the Palestinian population.

You however Mr.Pieces simply gloss (or trivialize) over this little fact.....

 point ..Apropos Mr.Pieces, the people of "my ilk" are friends and business colleagues who happen to be Jews and who are disturbed and appalled by the actions of the the Israeli Govt....

...while we're at it Mr. Pieces, what are the Palestinians going to expect when they see this?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
Wrong. Israel is only firing their weapons because Hamas broke the truce.

 whistleblower ...wrong....The Isreali Govt. isn't "only" firing their weapons because Hamas broke the truce. In fact, the Isreali Govt. has prevented necessary food and medicine to be delivered as well.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
As I said before this is the solution. Israel would never except it though.

No they would not, because it doesn't give them security from their enemies. I wouldn't accept it either.

..and the Palestinian people shouldn't accept being treated as caged animals as well.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 20):

Israel is not responsible for the economic well-being of the Gaza Strip. They claimed for YEARS that they wanted autonomy and independence. They get it in 2005 and do what? Beg Israel to supply them with power and supplies.

 redflag ..total canard. You are completely wrong.

Quoting Damirc (Reply 22):

Israel as the occupier is bound by the articles 50, 55 and 56 of the Fourth Geneva Convention for the well being of the occupied population. The blockade of aid was a clear breach of the Geneva Convention.

 checkmark 

Quoting Damirc (Reply 22):

But so is collective punishment (article 33, Fourth Geneva Convention) in regards to demolishing houses of suicide bombers families.

 checkmark 

Quoting Damirc (Reply 22):

And let's not forget the illegal settlements in the West Bank (article 49, Fourth Geneva Convention).

 checkmark 

Quoting Baroque (Reply 21):
As a number of posters have written, the Gazans were shut in a ghetto, the great concession from Israel was no concession at all to Gazans, it was just a grudging admission that occupying the place was not a tenable plan. But instead of making it a positive for the Gazans, most of the facilities of the settlers were destroyed and the Gazans were given nothing. As someone noted, even their employment opportunities were reduced.

Israels carrot and stick approach is great on sticks, but the carrots seem to be missing. Perhaps the wascally wabbit has eaten them all. And Elmer is left with Kassams!

Here's something to ponder...

fair use excerpt:

"From 1967 to the end of 2007, Israel established 121 settlements in the West Bank that were recognized by the Interior Ministry as “communities”, even though some of them contain stretches of land on which the built-up area is not contiguous. 12 other settlements are located on land annexed by Israel in 1967 and made part of Jerusalem. There are an additional 100 or so unrecognized settlements, referred to in the media as “outposts.” The 16 settlements built in the Gaza Strip and three settlements in the northern West Bank were dismantled in 2005 during implementation of the "disengagement plan."

As part of the regime, Israel has stolen thousands of dunams of land from the Palestinians. On this land, Israel has established dozens of settlements in which hundreds of thousands of Israeli civilians now live. Israel forbids Palestinians to enter and use these lands and uses the settlements to justify numerous violations of Palestinian rights, such as the right to housing, to earn a living, and freedom of movement. The sharp changes Israel made to the map of the West Bank make a viable Palestinian state impossible as part of the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination.

The settlers, on the other hand, benefit from all rights given to citizens of Israel who live inside the Green Line, and in some instances, even additional rights. The great effort Israel has expended in the settlement enterprise – financially, legally, and bureaucratically – has turned the settlements into civilian enclaves within an area under military rule and has given the settlers a preferred status. To perpetuate this unlawful situation, Israel has continuously violated the Palestinians’ human rights."

http://www.btselem.org/English/Settlements/

B'TSELEM - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories was established in 1989 by a group of prominent academics, attorneys, journalists, and Knesset members.
"Up the Irons!"
 
jutes85
Posts: 1854
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:50 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:34 am



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):
In fact, the Isreali Govt. has prevented necessary food and medicine to be delivered as well.

Prove it. They've attacked and destroyed tunnels that were used for smuggling weapons, not food and medicine. If Hamas cared about themselves and the Palestinians they would be using proper methods of getting food and medicine into Gaza. Building tunnels for "smuggling food" is laughable at best.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):
..and the Palestinian people shouldn't accept being treated as caged animals as well.

If that's how they act, that is how they should be treated.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 20):

Israel is not responsible for the economic well-being of the Gaza Strip. They claimed for YEARS that they wanted autonomy and independence. They get it in 2005 and do what? Beg Israel to supply them with power and supplies.

..total canard. You are completely wrong.

What, why? Face it, Gaza got exactly what they wanted, independence. Why should Israel be responsible for the well being of those living in Gaza? They should be able to provide their own electricity, water, food, you know, things for basic survival. It's clear they cannot do this without Israels help. When Israel closes its borders to Gaza, which they have every right to do as an independent nation, what does Hamas do, they launch rockets instead of trying to build an economy and education structure.
nothing
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5196
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:51 am



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 29):
Prove it.

just for you...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...8/12/30/2456827.htm?section=justin

"An Israeli patrol vessel has rammed a boat of Palestinian activists carrying a shipment of medical aid that tried to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip, Israeli military radio said."

now don't try and spin this to suit yourself.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:22 am



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 30):

Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 29):
Prove it.

just for you...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...8/12/30/2456827.htm?section=justin

"An Israeli patrol vessel has rammed a boat of Palestinian activists carrying a shipment of medical aid that tried to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip, Israeli military radio said."

now don't try and spin this to suit yourself.

Thanks, couldn't have said it better myself... checkmark 
"Up the Irons!"
 
jutes85
Posts: 1854
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:50 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:50 am



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 30):
Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 29):
Prove it.

just for you...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...8/12/30/2456827.htm?section=justin

"An Israeli patrol vessel has rammed a boat of Palestinian activists carrying a shipment of medical aid that tried to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip, Israeli military radio said."

now don't try and spin this to suit yourself.

More in the article:

"The Dignity was ordered to turn around, and warning shots were fired across its bow, but the 20-metre vessel nevertheless tried to navigate around the patrol boat which blocked its passage, the radio station reported."

Rightfully so, who knows what was on that boat along with the "medicine". I wouldn't let a strange boat carrying unknown items into my waters either. In a WAR you try to limit the inflow of items that might hurt your chances of victory. Don't sit there and tell me that if the Palestinians had military boats they wouldn't do the same thing to the Israelis. This is a game of eat or be eaten.
nothing
 
dragon-wings
Posts: 4138
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 4:55 am

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:03 am



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 33):
More in the article:

"The Dignity was ordered to turn around, and warning shots were fired across its bow, but the 20-metre vessel nevertheless tried to navigate around the patrol boat which blocked its passage, the radio station reported."

Rightfully so, who knows what was on that boat along with the "medicine". I wouldn't let a strange boat carrying unknown items into my waters either. In a WAR you try to limit the inflow of items that might hurt your chances of victory. Don't sit there and tell me that if the Palestinians had military boats they wouldn't do the same thing to the Israelis. This is a game of eat or be eaten.

Well instead of firing at the boat and making it turn around they could of searched the boat. And if they had medicine let them through. If they had anything illegal seize then illegal stuff.
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5196
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:10 am

Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 33):

"The Dignity was ordered to turn around, and warning shots were fired across its bow, but the 20-metre vessel nevertheless tried to navigate around the patrol boat which blocked its passage, the radio station reported."

wow..you did indeed twist it, look at the source! you asked for proof of Israel blocking medical and food aid, here it is from your beloved Zionist military and you still don't believe it.

"An Israeli patrol vessel has rammed a boat of Palestinian activists carrying a shipment of medical aid that tried to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip, ISRAELI MILITARY ROAD said."

seems this is coming from IDF and you still add your pathetic little twist to it, get real champ, your on a hiding to nothing with your bullshit.

[Edited 2008-12-30 01:13:03]

[Edited 2008-12-30 01:14:48]

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,24856880-950,00.html

just so you get the message loud & clear, here is another source.

[Edited 2008-12-30 01:26:23]
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:00 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 20):
Israel goes above and beyond, and gets treated as if it is the worst human rights offender in human history.

In my (long-considered) opinion, RJpieces, it may or may not be the worst. But it's very much in contention for first place..........

You and others continually 'make the case' for Israel to go on killing people for the sake of 'territory.' Any such notion is utterly repugnant to me.

As far as I'm concerned - having been brought up as a Christian - religion is about three things; "Faith, Hope, and Charity."

And my reaction on hearing of hundreds of Palestinians being killed, and thousands of others being injured with no chance of proper medical care, is exactly the same as the 'reaction' so beautifully portrayed by John Donne five centuries ago:-

"No man is an island, entire of itself; every
man is a piece of the continent, a part of the
main. If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory
were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or
of thine own were: any man's death diminishes
me, because I am involved in mankind, and
therefore never send to know for whom the bell
tolls; it tolls for thee."



I don't know what religion you follow. I have to assume that you're Jewish, though I may be wrong.

But please tell me, does your religion support the notion that it is OK to KILL people simply because they won't surrender their territory to an invader.........?

If it does, it should immediately be banned, worldwide. It's the same 'religion' that Hitler tried to introduce, complete with concepts like the 'Master-Race' and 'Lebensraum'............

[Edited 2008-12-30 03:01:56]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Elite
Posts: 2309
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:20 am



Quoting KSYR (Reply 7):
They aren't. Israel is targeting Hamas. Hamas is targeting civilians. Hamas fired first.

Israel may be targeting Hamas, but it is the civilians of Palestine that are being hit. Some Hamas members have been killed, but that has only been accompanied by civilian deaths.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:42 am



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 29):
They've attacked and destroyed tunnels that were used for smuggling weapons, not food and medicine. If Hamas cared about themselves and the Palestinians they would be using proper methods of getting food and medicine into Gaza. Building tunnels for "smuggling food" is laughable at best.

Let us see

1. Air - airport destroyed and use banned

2. Land transport - largely banned

3. Access by sea - banned

4. Access from Egypt - mostly banned.

5. Railway - not that it ever ran though Gaza but the Arabs helped Capt/Col Lawrence destroy a nearby one in WW I - nice reward they got for that. Still the Turks show their gratitude whenever possible.

Hint the transport bans are not by the Palestinians or by Hamas.

So what organization do you suppose bans transport? It also bans fuel being brought in from time to time.

Ghetto - 1. A section of a city occupied by a minority group who live there especially because of social, economic, or legal pressure.
2. An often walled quarter in a European city to which Jews were restricted beginning in the Middle Ages.
3. Something that resembles the restriction or isolation of a city ghetto: "trapped in ethnic or pink-collar managerial job ghettoes" Diane Weathers.
[Italian, after Ghetto, island near Venice where Jews were made to live in the 16th century.]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ghetto

Got the bits about legal pressure, and trapped, restrictions????
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 5811
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:22 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 15):
The simple fact is that Hamas is not interested in governing through peace and mediation.

Israel does'nt seem to have a sincere interest in it either...

Quoting Damirc (Reply 22):
Factually wrong.

Israel as the occupier is bound by the articles 50, 55 and 56 of the Fourth Geneva Convention for the well being of the occupied population. The blockade of aid was a clear breach of the Geneva Convention.

But so is collective punishment (article 33, Fourth Geneva Convention) in regards to demolishing houses of suicide bombers families.

And let's not forget the illegal settlements in the West Bank (article 49, Fourth Geneva Convention).

D.

Correct

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 30):
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...8/12/30/2456827.htm?section=justin

"An Israeli patrol vessel has rammed a boat of Palestinian activists carrying a shipment of medical aid that tried to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip, Israeli military radio said."



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 33):
More in the article:

"The Dignity was ordered to turn around, and warning shots were fired across its bow, but the 20-metre vessel nevertheless tried to navigate around the patrol boat which blocked its passage, the radio station reported."

Rightfully so, who knows what was on that boat along with the "medicine". I wouldn't let a strange boat carrying unknown items into my waters either. In a WAR you try to limit the inflow of items that might hurt your chances of victory. Don't sit there and tell me that if the Palestinians had military boats they wouldn't do the same thing to the Israelis. This is a game of eat or be eaten.

The boat was attacked by Israeli navy in INTERNATIONAL waters. There was no reason for the boat to surrender to the Israeli navy.

This info is according to CNN and comes from CNN's reporter onboard the rammed vessel....
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24088
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:23 pm



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 33):
Rightfully so, who knows what was on that boat along with the "medicine"

Oh please. Complete ravings. Why didnt they tell them that they wanted to check the boat over and then if all was ok let them continue?? WOW didnt think of that !! Not rocket science..Pardon the pun.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
Let us see

1. Air - airport destroyed and use banned

2. Land transport - largely banned

3. Access by sea - banned

4. Access from Egypt - mostly banned.

 checkmark   checkmark 
 
Elite
Posts: 2309
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:46 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 39):
Israel does'nt seem to have a sincere interest in it either...

The scale of the attack Israel launched - one of the deadliest in history - seems to be overreacting and not a move towards peace in a very messy area...
 
KSYR
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:45 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:22 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 37):
srael is targeting Hamas. Hamas is targeting civilians. Hamas fired first.

Israel may be targeting Hamas, but it is the civilians of Palestine that are being hit. Some Hamas members have been killed, but that has only been accompanied by civilian deaths.

The vast majority of people killed have been Hamas fighters. At last count, roughly 200 Hamas fighters (by their own count) have been killed, along with 60 or so civilians (aka human shields). Meanwhile, Hamas is boasting an 4 to 1 kill ratio for Israeli civilians to soldiers.

6,000 rockets launched into Israeli territory. Hamas was asking for it, and they are finally getting what they deserve.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24088
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:42 pm



Quoting KSYR (Reply 42):
and they are finally getting what they deserve.

Wrong !!

Is this justifiable ??









 
Elite
Posts: 2309
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:52 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 43):

While I agree with you, and I agree that these photos are powerful, they can be used for both sides... it wouldn't be hard for someone to whip up some photos of damage to civilians on the Israeli side.
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:01 pm

^ The proponents of Israel will tell you it is, albeit in a slight more diplomatic term. I see it as no different than the Osama bin Laden logic. US does evil, so kill Americans kids, Hamas does evil, kill Palestinian kids. Osama blames US for its attacks and resulting casualties, Israel blames Hamas for the same. And damn can you find every other post by an individual, lining up to defend ghettos, massacres, ethnic cleansing, colonization and this is almost 2009. Humans will remain as primitive as they were in primitive times.

I see Israel only digging its own grave, my understanding is that a very significant number of Israeli's themselves are doubting what's being done in their name, I hope they turn things around. Olmert is willing to fight his political battle to the last drop of other people's blood. Israel will have to pay for its crimes, sooner or later things will boil over.
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:03 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 44):
While I agree with you, and I agree that these photos are powerful, they can be used for both sides... it wouldn't be hard for someone to whip up some photos of damage to civilians on the Israeli side.

Thing is, you won't find anyone here defending those damaging that other side at least not on this forum. Can you say the same about those killing the Palestinian kids?
 
Elite
Posts: 2309
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:07 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 46):

Sorry, don't really get your post, do you mean no one is defending the Palestinians? Or the other way round?
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:13 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):

Ok, treating this as a start, I have to say you conveniently left out the issue of the settlements Israel already has, you never mentioned the refugees of decades as a result of the ethnic cleansing. You mentioned Jerusalem, could you tell me what the Israeli claim to the city is based on? The Palestinian claim is based on the international laws which prohibit any nation from acquiring land by means of war. The entire solution to this problem HAS to be legal and ought not to involve religion AT ALL. Regardless to say, almost every Israeli claim is torn shreds by this.

I say let justice prevail! But I guess since justice goes against what Israel wants, its Anti-Semitic.

Quoting Elite (Reply 47):
do you mean no one is defending the Palestinians? Or the other way round?

I was referring to that fact that I don't see anybody defending the acts of Hamas, but you see many defending Israeli acts.
 
eaa3
Posts: 945
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:49 am

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:16 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 44):
While I agree with you, and I agree that these photos are powerful, they can be used for both sides... it wouldn't be hard for someone to whip up some photos of damage to civilians on the Israeli side.

Actually it would be. Given that 4 Israelis have died due to rocket attacks compared to probably 400 Palestinians now in the last 4 days in Israel. The suffering in Israel is nothing compared to the suffering in Palestine.
 
Elite
Posts: 2309
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:21 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 48):
I was referring to that fact that I don't see anybody defending the acts of Hamas, but you see many defending Israeli acts.

That's because there are 3 different parties involved. There is Hamas, the Palestinians and the Israelis. No one is defending the acts of Hamas, but no one is outraged at the deaths of Hamas members either. People are outraged at the fact that Palestinians - who many of them just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time - were killed.
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:22 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 49):
Actually it would be. Given that 4 Israelis have died due to rocket attacks compared to probably 400 Palestinians now in the last 4 days in Israel. The suffering in Israel is nothing compared to the suffering in Palestine.

Actually I don't think it would be, there may not be 400 pics, one for each Palestinian victim, but there would be 400 pics of each Israeli victim, and their grieving families. You'd learn their names, their profession and their dreams. On the Palestinians side, you'd be glad if they can keep the count right.

The above probably doesn't hold very true since Al Jazeera came along, but then Al Jazeera though not banned in the US, is not carried by ANY cable network in the entire US. I heard of one local network in NY but even they took it off IIRC.
 
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OA260
Posts: 24088
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:23 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 44):
damage to civilians on the Israeli side.


Yes but one side are supposed to be terrorists ( Hamas ) and the other side claims to be the force of good.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 46):
Thing is, you won't find anyone here defending those damaging that other side at least not on this forum. Can you say the same about those killing the Palestinian kids?

BINGO !! You got it also. Whilst we have said that equally any Israeli life lost is not justified the Pro Israeli camp have delighted in telling us that it is justified and calling it ''colateral'' damage .

So when US Soldiers are killed in Iraq and Afghanistan the Americans call them ''heroes''!! Are the US Soldiers not ''colateral'' damage also? Weird logic that .

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 48):
Ok, treating this as a start

And all that certain members have done is change their flag from a USA one to an Israeli one whilst they refuse to state on this forum that any Palestinian innocent civilian loss is un justified.

That's the difference really. I guess some people are more Christian than others but usually the ones that pop down to Church every Sunday and preach the bible are the ones who then come and post un Christian views. Such hypocrisy.
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:23 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 50):
who many of them just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time - were killed.

The name of that wrong place is Gaza, and they were there because they are not allowed to leave, and its not Hamas stopping them.

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