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Mortyman
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:42 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 51):
Actually I don't think it would be, there may not be 400 pics, one for each Palestinian victim, but there would be 400 pics of each Israeli victim, and their grieving families. You'd learn their names, their profession and their dreams. On the Palestinians side, you'd be glad if they can keep the count right.

I am confident that the red cross gets the numbers right for the Palestinians...
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:53 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 53):
The name of that wrong place is Gaza, and they were there because they are not allowed to leave, and its not Hamas stopping them.

100% correct . They are caged in . Where do they run to ?

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 54):
I am confident that the red cross gets the numbers right for the Palestinians...

Exactly and its an insult to state otherwise. The Red Cross help anyone be it Israeli/Palestinan
etc... They do alot of work all over the world but it just suits some peoples morals to try to discredit them. It makes them sleep better at night trying to find some justification for it all.
 
eaa3
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:07 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 51):

Actually I don't think it would be, there may not be 400 pics, one for each Palestinian victim, but there would be 400 pics of each Israeli victim, and their grieving families. You'd learn their names, their profession and their dreams. On the Palestinians side, you'd be glad if they can keep the count right.

The above probably doesn't hold very true since Al Jazeera came along, but then Al Jazeera though not banned in the US, is not carried by ANY cable network in the entire US. I heard of one local network in NY but even they took it off IIRC.

Yes it's pathetic what the Israelis are doing. They are creating a "Gaza ghetto".

I don't really understand a couple things about the American- Israeli relationship. Namely why people think that Israeli democracy is like American democracy. Israel is a country that is basically based on religion and it's values are based on religion. Fundamentalists have huge say and the government discriminate based on religion. These and many other examples are not American values.
 
bravo45
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:26 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 52):
And all that certain members have done is change their flag from a USA one to an Israeli one whilst they refuse to state on this forum that any Palestinian innocent civilian loss is un justified.

That's the difference really. I guess some people are more Christian than others but usually the ones that pop down to Church every Sunday and preach the bible are the ones who then come and post un Christian views. Such hypocrisy.

 checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting OA260 (Reply 55):
The Red Cross help anyone be it Israeli/Palestinan
etc... They do alot of work all over the world but it just suits some peoples morals to try to discredit them. It makes them sleep better at night trying to find some justification for it all.

Not sure if the comment is pointed towards me, but I was not even talking about the Red Cross, I was referring to the bias of the media in favor of the Israel especially in the US. There are honest hypocrites like Fox who'd try to make everyone a fool be it a domestic or international audience, and then there are two faced hypocrites like CNN who'd be saying one thing on their American broadcast and a little bit better on their international channel. Hypocrites nonetheless.

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 56):
Yes it's pathetic what the Israelis are doing. They are creating a "Gaza ghetto".

 checkmark 
Especially tragic given the history of the fathers of the perpetrators.

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 56):
I don't really understand a couple things about the American- Israeli relationship.

Well, its the media. And Israel knows where it matters. You can't get away with saying some of the stuff in the US, that is at times being regularly said in Israel itself. Its all about the media, funny how it can make hell look like heaven. Israel is nothing like the US when it comes to values.
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:33 pm



Quoting KSYR (Reply 42):
6,000 rockets launched into Israeli territory. Hamas was asking for it, and they are finally getting what they deserve

Don't you see that Hamas was in fact asking for it? They want this kind of overreaction because it helps their cause. And my friend, if there's one group that did not get what they deserve, that's Hamas.

Quoting Elite (Reply 50):
People are outraged at the fact that Palestinians - who many of them just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time - were killed.

correct. And well, let's face it, they probably could not be anywhere else.

I'm still outraged at the (lack of) response by the International community, mainly the west. Had there been 300 Israeli's dead after an attack I'm sure there would have been a different reaction.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:48 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 43):
Quoting KSYR (Reply 42):
and they are finally getting what they deserve.

Wrong !!

He's right, actually, and here's why . . .

Quoting Elite (Reply 44):
While I agree with you, and I agree that these photos are powerful, they can be used for both sides



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 49):
Actually it would be. Given that 4 Israelis have died due to rocket attacks compared to probably 400 Palestinians now in the last 4 days in Israel.

Is it Israel's fault that they have better weapons when someone else starts a fight? Look at the numbers again . . .

Quoting KSYR (Reply 42):
6,000 rockets launched into Israeli territory

. . . if Hamas had better equipped rockets, more Israelis would be dead - maybe if there were as many dead Israeli civilians as there are Palestinian civilians, the noise might lessen.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 43):
Is this justifiable ??

Why is it you make little to no mention on the behalf of the Israelis who didn't provoke this, yet still have suffered? Is it any less a travesty for Israel that fewer civilians on the Israeli side than the Palestinian side have suffered through this - something they didn't even start?

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 49):
The suffering in Israel is nothing compared to the suffering in Palestine.

Then Hamas had better arm themselves w/better weapons next time they instigate a conflict, or they'll again knowingly cause the people around them again to suffer.
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:51 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 58):
Not sure if the comment is pointed towards me, but I was not even talking about the Red Cross, I

No it was not aimed at you it was aimed at the people that have suggested since thread 1 that any organisation that does not meet with their own views are somehow not accurate.

I would respect the Red Cross figures before I trusted Israeli or USA government ones thats for sure.
 
na
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:20 pm



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 13):
Perhaps it's time for a short, painless, and informative history lesson going back several thousands of years.

Thanks for posting this.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 43):
Wrong !!

Is this justifiable ??

Sad standard war pictures. And exactly what Hamas wants. It is cynical to say, but you are making advertising for them. In a way its Propaganda. I wouldnt wonder if some of the dead shown are Hamas supporters, famililies or human shields Hamas hides behind.
Why dont you show dead Hamas terrorists? They are reportedly (by their own people) the majority of victims.
There are pictures of a Hamas headquarters in ruins. These ruins are indeed justifiable.

Both sides are at fault. Unlike some here I do not point my finger only to one side.
But I will repeat it again and again: Israel aims at the terrorists which constantly attack their civilian population. The Hamas way of "fighting" is pure, deliberate murder of civilians as their basic strategy. The Israeli reaction is a ( I agree a very cruel) police action against these murderers. How do you think Israel should react? By sending welfare workers to people swearing to wipe Israel out, begging not to shot rockets anymore?
 
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:26 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 53):
The name of that wrong place is Gaza, and they were there because they are not allowed to leave, and its not Hamas stopping them

BBC has a report of an Egyptian office being killed in gunfire when Hamas attempted to stop citizens from fleeing into Egypt, I know it's the BBC but can anyone confirm this, they also posted that Egypt would not help the rulers in Gaza, is that also true?
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:37 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 63):
Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 13):
Perhaps it's time for a short, painless, and informative history lesson going back several thousands of years.

Thanks for posting this.

Agreed - thanks for showing a picture of who was really there 1st (as far as those from back then who are obviously related to who's around today).
Living the American Dream
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:42 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 63):
Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 13):
Perhaps it's time for a short, painless, and informative history lesson going back several thousands of years.

Thanks for posting this.

And thanks for pointing it out, I had missed on the first run.
 
mham001
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:50 pm



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):
The Isreali Govt. isn't "only" firing their weapons because Hamas broke the truce. In fact, the Isreali Govt. has prevented necessary food and medicine to be delivered as well.

I'm not heavily invested in this race but that statement is bullshit. I'd really like to see a true balanced discussion.

Israel has not prevented anything, Gaza has a border with Egypt too. Why is Egypt not supporting them? Huh? Why aren't the Arabs helping their Muslim brothers when it would be so easy to do so? Why is Israel the only country to catch blame?
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:53 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 69):
Palestinians have no real way of fighting the Israelis except with these methods and I don't blame them.

 eyepopping  If you're not blaming them, then this is what you're justifying/turning a blind eye to/passively observing (all quotes of Baroque are from a link he provided) . . .

Quoting KSYR (Reply 42):
6,000 rockets launched into Israeli territory.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 24):
For eight years we have been bombed by terrorists.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 24):
Hamas has to be stopped. I hope they will damage the rocket launchers and teach Hamas that they can't continue, that they can't just hurt civilians and use terror.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 24):
They use people as protection for their own military terrorism



Quoting Baroque (Reply 24):
they use kindergartens and houses and send terror attacks out of civilian areas, which endangers their own people.

Big version: Width: 468 Height: 286 File size: 24kb
Israel kids suffer, too
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slider
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:59 pm

I've said it before, I'll say it again, and I'm sure I'll repeat at some point in the future when the next inevitable conflagration occurs:

There will not be peace in the Middle East until one side defeats the other.

Period.

This is all just sticks and stones in the long and shitty history of the region.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:00 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 71):
Spare me. The UN created this mistake and it is the Arabs who have been Invading ever since.

and one of the founding fathers of the UN is.... ah yes the United States..... Funny is'nt it ?
 
Falcon84
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:05 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 82):
and one of the founding fathers of the UN is.... ah yes the United States..... Funny is'nt it ?

And, so? So is Russia, the UK, France, Japan, etc.

Is their a point to that, Mortyman? Or simply more jabs at the U.S. behind that banal statement?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:13 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 83):
And, so? So is Russia, the UK, France, Japan, etc.

Is their a point to that, Mortyman? Or simply more jabs at the U.S. behind that banal statement?

The response was to Windy95's post nr 71 that read:

" Spare me. The UN created this mistake and it is the Arabs who have been Invading ever since. "


My point was that if Windy95 wants to put blame on the UN, it is also putting blame on the US, since US is one of the founding faters of the UN. The UN is'nt better than it's participating nations.
 
mham001
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:14 pm

Will somebody please answer why Egypt is not catching hell here for border restrictions?
 
KSYR
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:18 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 43):
Is this justifiable ??

Yes. Israel isn't targeting civilians, but civilians do die in urban warfare, so unfortunately it is justifiable.

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 49):
Actually it would be. Given that 4 Israelis have died due to rocket attacks compared to probably 400 Palestinians now in the last 4 days in Israel. The suffering in Israel is nothing compared to the suffering in Palestine.

6,000 rockets launched into your towns has an enormous psychological impact on your population.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 59):
Don't you see that Hamas was in fact asking for it? They want this kind of overreaction because it helps their cause. And my friend, if there's one group that did not get what they deserve, that's Hamas.

Well, Hamas has lost hundreds of their fighters and their leadership is in hiding, so I would say that they are hurting somewhat.

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 69):
Calling them terrorists is not accurate. Palestinians have no real way of fighting the Israelis except with these methods and I don't blame them. Israel has basically imprisoned them in the Gaza ghetto and many of the young people there have never known anything but that.

Calling them terrorists is entirely accurate. Just ask the US or EU. Any organization whose goal is to drive an entire nation into the sea and intentionally targets civilians is a terrorist organization in the eyes of most of the world.

And forgive me if I don't feel bad for the people who were dancing in the streets as the World Trade Center fell on 9/11.
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:19 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 78):
If you're not blaming them, then this is what you're justifying/turning a blind eye to/passively observing (all quotes of Baroque are from a link he provided) . . .

Quoting KSYR (Reply 42):
6,000 rockets launched into Israeli territory.
Quoting Baroque (Reply 24):
For eight years we have been bombed by terrorists.
Quoting Baroque (Reply 24):
Hamas has to be stopped. I hope they will damage the rocket launchers and teach Hamas that they can't continue, that they can't just hurt civilians and use terror.
Quoting Baroque (Reply 24):
They use people as protection for their own military terrorism
Quoting Baroque (Reply 24):
they use kindergartens and houses and send terror attacks out of civilian areas, which endangers their own people.

Great job of selective quotation. Those come from Al Jazeera (which some of your soul mates think is a terrorist organization itself) but you omit a great deal and all from Israelis. So here are some further quotes:
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2008/12/2008122912541872883.html
Even if they [the Israeli army] are able to pacify Hamas for a while, it won't be for the long term. And the real outcome is that we will have more people feeling pain, because their lives have been damaged by this or because they are Israeli soldiers that had to do things they shouldn't and have to deal with that.
...

I am aware that life in the Gaza Strip hasn't been simple and people suffer on a daily basis from the siege that Israel imposes on them. But the Palestinian people should ask themselves why. The answer is simple. Every time we try to normalise the situation, Hamas decides to show their nation how strong they are and how they can attack the Israelis over the border.
.....

They should think wisely. I think enough Palestinian and Israeli blood has been spilled. Both nations are hurt from the ongoing situation. I don't want to see Israeli soldiers die in vain when eventually we will leave Gaza again - you see it is an ongoing cycle and Hamas can stop it."


Going back to Haaretz:
Israel will insist that any truce include a complete, long-term halt to the rocket fire from Gaza. In exchange, it will apparently agree to reopen the border crossings at some point, though no final decisions have been made. Some ministers want to continue the military operation, but Defense Minister Ehud Barak and the chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces, Gabi Ashkenazi, are more cautious.

Well they could only re-open the border crossings if they had been closed, something that some on the board do not wish to know about.

Also from Haaretz
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051008.html
And one more, unavoidable thought: Had we adopted this attitude in July 2006, after Hezbollah abducted the soldiers, had we had stopped then, after our first response, and declared we were holding our fire for a day or two to mediate and calm things down, the reality today might be entirely different.

And have a think about this instead of counting Kassam rockets and cheering on the F16s as was done earlier in these threads, also from Haaretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051210.html
Monday the first signs of controversy surfaced in Israel regarding the
continuation of the operation and its character. The defense establishment at first spoke enthusiastically about a three- and even four-week operation, and about preparations for a ground assault. The cabinet decision allows for such an escalation, up to retaking the Gaza Strip, but the Foreign Ministry says the international community will stop Israel long before that.

Meanwhile, the diplomatic arena is quiet. Israel discounts today's meeting of European Union foreign ministers and the urgent calls from the United Nations secretary general and the foreign ministers of Britain and France for an immediate cease-fire. No senior envoy is on the way to Israel to stop the fighting. The Bush White House is very pleased with the blow struck against Hamas.

However, Jerusalem was not pleased with the statement by the U.N. Security Council that called on both sides to cease hostilities and protested to U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that the wording described Israel and Hamas as equals. But Rice made clear that this is the way it would go.

Jerusalem believes that the international community will do no more than
release empty statements to the media, but would intervene to stop the
fighting if there were a major incident (such as the Kfar Qana bombing that stopped Operation Grapes of Wrath in Lebanon in 1996) resulting in numerous civilian casualties in Gaza or if domestic pressure in Egypt and Jordan reached intolerable levels.

Israel cannot expect the world to "save it from itself," and it should look for ways to end the conflict quickly. The danger lurking here is a feeling of success that would drag on the action and increase the chances of unpleasant entanglements.


Of course Israel has a problem, but some of its actions towards Gaza and Hamas have been counterproductive. Try reading some of the calmer voices coming from Israel.
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:21 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 72):
Israel does what it wants whenever it wants against any of their neighbours.

If that were true, Syria, Gaza and maybe a few other places wouldn't be called by those names - they'd be called Israel.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 73):
I hope your inability to recognise the bleeding obvious does not incommode your normal life too much.

Plenty of subjective rebuttal in that remark. Looks like he was replying to this . . .

Quoting Baroque (Reply 21):
Israel retained complete control over access, ALL the borders (with a proxy deal with Egypt, probably pushed by the US

. . . when this is what is really happening on the Egyptian/Gaza border . . .

Egypt police repel Palestinians on tense Gaza border - http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...ALeqM5hUoj7YA-p-mpYWLb6zIT1MgkSRhw

Egypt says border to stay shut until Abbas back in power
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...ALeqM5ir8MrmXtBikIQ0zFQyInwhza_drg
" 'We in Egypt are not going to contribute to perpetuating the rift (between Abbas and Gaza's Hamas rulers) by opening the Rafah crossing in the absence of the Palestinian Authority and EU observers in violation of the 2005 deal' "

"The deal fell into abeyance when Hamas seized control of Gaza from forces loyal to Abbas in June last year."

And, in case some don't like those sources, here's the AP report -

Egypt refuses full opening of Gaza crossing
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/..._0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD95D24I00
"Egypt resists dealing with the Islamic militant Hamas because it opposes the militant group's 2007 takeover of the Gaza Strip and insists Abbas is the legitimate Palestinian leader."

[Edited 2008-12-30 09:26:28]
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:26 pm



Quoting KSYR (Reply 89):
Well, Hamas has lost hundreds of their fighters and their leadership is in hiding, so I would say that they are hurting somewhat.

And yet they still manage to keep on launching rockets. Can't you see that nothing has been achieved? Maybe their hiding now, but in the long run more terrorists have been created.
Israel has the right to defend itself, but they just made a huge mistake in their defence effort.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
KSYR
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:28 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 95):

And yet they still manage to keep on launching rockets. Can't you see that nothing has been achieved? Maybe their hiding now, but in the long run more terrorists have been created.
Israel has the right to defend itself, but they just made a huge mistake in their defence effort.

Hamas would still be launching rockets even if Israel had continued to do nothing. At least now some Hamas fighters are being killed as they launch their rockets, instead of the whole ordeal being one-sided.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:39 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 17):
So let's kill everyone and have a blood fest!! Hamas provokes Israel, Israel kills 300 times more Palestinians, many non even Hamas members giving an image of cold blooded murderers ... geez, who wins? We all know Hamas does not care about civilians, so they did not get hurt by this.
besides, I'm not so sure at who fired first ... a rocket or economic oppression both have the power of killing.

Yes but the people that hate Isreal only understands one thing. Force. Hamas and Al Qaida and all other radicals that hate Isreal have to stop. I am glad Isreal has taken up arms and been fed up with this. How many chances do we have to give Iran, Hamas and Al Qaida? it's real easy, stop the attacks. If you want to talk about who lives where and how fine. Stop the suicide bombs, stop the rockets, stop beheading people, stop the IADs stop the terrorist attacks. If not you have to expect someone you keep attacking to come back with force.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:40 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 91):
"Egypt resists dealing with the Islamic militant Hamas because it opposes the militant group's 2007 takeover of the Gaza Strip and insists Abbas is the legitimate Palestinian leader."

Of course, because Abbas is the tame puppet of the US. Egypt is told who to back or they will never see their currency again.

What Obama might well inherit is an unstable Egypt if its opposition to Hamas proves fatal to the Egyptian government, which it could. That would be yet another mess for him to sort out after the disaster of the Bush years in the ME.
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:41 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 103):
Of course, because Abbas is the tame puppet of the US. Egypt is told who to back or they will never see their currency again.

That may or may not be true, but source material would be appreciated.
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Acheron
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:51 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 62):

CIVILIANS GET HURT AND KILLED IN WAR!

Well, then lets get rid of the Geneva Convention. After all, they are going to get killed anyway, right?
 
KSYR
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:53 pm



Quoting Acheron (Reply 104):
Well, then lets get rid of the Geneva Convention. After all, they are going to get killed anyway, right?

Not that Hamas follows it anyways...
 
Gman94
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:54 pm



Quoting KSYR (Reply 89):
6,000 rockets launched into your towns has an enormous psychological impact on your population.

So does having your land stolen, being ethnically cleasned, being blockaded on the pitiful bit of land that you have left and having Israeli settlers who shouldn't be on your land beat the crap out of you when you try and farm your land. But how Palestinians got to this point is irrelevant.

If Israel actually offered fair peace terms then Palestinians would slowly turn away from the likes of Hamas. But as I've said before Israel does not want peace as that would mean making concessions that their religious extremist settlers would not accept. Much better to stir the hornets nest every so often so you always have an excuse to not make peace.
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Falcon84
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:54 pm



Quoting Acheron (Reply 103):
Well, then lets get rid of the Geneva Convention. After all, they are going to get killed anyway, right?

The Geneva Convention forcuses more on POW's, does it not?

And if you are going to act like that, why don't we just say, before every war, that all civilians must leave, because there are people on Anet who can't take the fact that civilians do, always have, and always will, die in war. It gives them the creeps.  Yeah sure
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
eaa3
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:57 pm



Quoting KSYR (Reply 103):
Yes, if the majority of those 400 people are terrorists and civilians aren't intentionally targeted. So, yes.

Really. You have 4 deaths in Israel and because of that it's OK to kill 62 civilians and 338 others that Israel doesn't consider to be civilians but are in reality probably just pissed of young people that have lived in a prison for their entire lives.
 
jfk69
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:58 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 55):
The Red Cross help anyone be it Israeli/Palestinan
etc... They do alot of work all over the world but it just suits some peoples morals to try to discredit them. It makes them sleep better at night trying to find some justification for it all.

From 2004

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38747

The United Nations and Red Cross have been providing cover for terrorists – literally. And American taxpayers are footing some of the bill.

Last week, an Israeli television station aired footage of armed Arab terrorists in southern Gaza using an ambulance owned and operated by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees. Palestinian gunmen used the UNRWA emergency vehicle as getaway transportation after murdering six Israeli soldiers in Gaza City on May 11. The footage shows two ambulances with flashing lights pull onto a street. Shots and shouts ring out during the nighttime raid. A gang of militants piles into one of the supposedly neutral ambulances, clearly marked "U.N." with the agency's blue flag flying from the roof, which then speeds away from the scene.



So yeah, I can see why some of us don't really trust the Red Cross or UNRWA.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e7d_1191102583

The video link

(Edited to add video link)

[Edited 2008-12-30 09:59:45]
 
KSYR
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:05 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 101):
Really. You have 4 deaths in Israel and because of that it's OK to kill 62 civilians and 338 others that Israel doesn't consider to be civilians but are in reality probably just pissed of young people that have lived in a prison for their entire lives.

Yes, it is ok to kill 338 terrorists. The civilian deaths are unfortunate, but they are unintentional and a result of modern urban warfare.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:10 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 85):
And some Arabs did,

Oh only some now? Anyway I'm glad to see that these un truths have been removed. Would be nice to have statements against killing innocent civilians but I guess for some its a bridge they are not willing to cross.

From my part anyway and as stated before any loss of life on both sides is not justified. Just a shame some think it is.
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:16 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 92):
you imply it's not justified. You deny them that right, simply because not enough of them have died to suit your need to make it about numbers instead of aggression.

I never implied Israel does not have the right to defend itself. Fnd any post of mine that says that. Just in case, here are a few ...

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 88):
What's being discussed here is the out of proportion retaliation.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 81):
Israel has the right to defend itself, but they just made a huge mistake in their defence effort.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 59):
if there's one group that did not get what they deserve, that's Hamas.

You can clearly see that I do not blame Israel for defendind itself, but they way it's doing it, and that by no means I defend Hamas.
If you are going to say things about what I have posted, please read my posts first.

Quoting KSYR (Reply 98):
The civilian deaths are unfortunate

This is more than unfortunate! Israel has a state of the art technology in their military power, precision weapons and I don't know what else. The amount of civilian deaths is way too high.

Would you call it unfortunate if Lebanon would have done the same against Israel? (considering Israel has bombed Lebanon, and continuosly violates it's air space).
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
KSYR
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:22 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 100):
This is more than unfortunate! Israel has a state of the art technology in their military power, precision weapons and I don't know what else. The amount of civilian deaths is way too high.

Actually, there really isn't much else they can do. Smart bombs are pretty accurate but in a dense urban setting there will always be civilian casualties.

Quote:
Would you call it unfortunate if Lebanon would have done the same against Israel? (considering Israel has bombed Lebanon, and continuosly violates it's air space).

If Israel was harboring a group that constantly attacked Lebanese civilians, and was sworn to drive Lebanon into the sea, then yes, I would say Lebanon would have the right to go after them.
 
BA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:26 pm

Israeli terror has targeted a boat full of international peace activists carrying medical supplies to Gaza.

The Israeli Navy rammed the boat several times causing extensive damage to the vessel. The boat limped its way to Lebanese waters where it was escorted by the Lebanese Navy into the southern port city of Tyre (Sour).







http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7804841.stm

It's clear they don't want the world to see the carnage they are causing.

Quote:
"We were prevented from entering Gaza ... by Israeli patrol boats that tracked us for about 30 minutes. They shone their spotlight on us and then all of a sudden they rammed us approximately three times, twice in the front and once in the side," said former U.S. Representative Cynthia McKinney who was aboard the boat.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/...2/30/news/ML-Lebanon-Gaza-Boat.php

On a related note, Lebanon is donating $1 million in aid to Gaza and has declared a day of national mourning.

"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:29 pm



Quoting KSYR (Reply 101):
Actually, there really isn't much else they can do. Smart bombs are pretty accurate but in a dense urban setting there will always be civilian casualties

Unacceptable. Civilian casualties do happen, but that many should not. There are other tactics, there are other ways to defend your citizens.
Israel has been trating Palestininan civilians like dirt even without the use of weapons. As I said, unacceptable.

Quoting KSYR (Reply 101):
If Israel was harboring a group that constantly attacked Lebanese civilians

Lebanese civilians were attacked in 2006 by Israeli military
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
na
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:30 pm



Quoting KSYR (Reply 98):
Yes, it is ok to kill 338 terrorists. The civilian deaths are unfortunate, but they are unintentional and a result of modern urban warfare.

 checkmark 
It is impossible to separate the terrorists from the people living with them, because its part of their cynical way of "fighting". So aiming at the terrorists will kill some more or less harmless civilians too.

In former times war mostly meant fighting between armies clearly identified by uniforms. Civilians were only harmed if living close to the battlegrounds or by the resulting economical hardships. Since "modern" war means more and more guerilla, partisan and terroristic actions, and since all these "fighters" hide among the common population, fighting against terrorists and partisans will hit the normal people around them as well to some degree. There is no way out of it. And therefore this way of fighting needs to be banned and condemned. Pictures of "collateral" civilian victims are mainly aimed at the naive majority to achieve some understanding for the terrorists. I admit the pacifistic (good) intentions of such pictures, but as much as that it serves as propaganda for the wrong purpose.

I support the original Geneva convention excluding terroristic ways of fighting.
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:31 pm



Quoting BA (Reply 102):
The Israeli Navy rammed the boat several times causing extensive damage to the vessel. The boat limped its way to Lebanese waters where it was escorted by the Lebanese Navy into the southern port city of Tyre (Sour).

I'm curious to see how this also gets a twist an somehow becomes a justifiable action by Israel
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:33 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 104):
It is impossible to separate the terrorists from the people living with them, because its part of their cynical way of "fighting". So aiming at the terrorists will kill some more or less harmless civilians too.

Normally I would agree. But when these cvilians don't have a choice because they are living in a cage, I can't agree.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
KSYR
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:37 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 103):
Unacceptable. Civilian casualties do happen, but that many should not. There are other tactics, there are other ways to defend your citizens.

Like...?

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 103):
Lebanese civilians were attacked in 2006 by Israeli military

Hezbollah was attacked in 2006 by the Israeli military after they crossed the border and killed several Israeli soldiers. Civilians were not targeted by Israeli but once again were put at risk when they were used as human shields by the Hezbollah fighters.
 
Gman94
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:42 pm



Quoting KSYR (Reply 107):
Hezbollah was attacked in 2006 by the Israeli military after they crossed the border and killed several Israeli soldiers. Civilians were not targeted by Israeli but once again were put at risk when they were used as human shields by the Hezbollah fighters.

Well that is wrong for starters as huge amount of civilian infrastructure was targeted in the attack on Lebanon including Beirut's international airport. And by your logic if the IRA ever reared their ugly heads again we would be entitled to bomb New York and Boston to get some of the people funding them, so what if there is some collateral damage?
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:57 pm



Quoting BA (Reply 102):
Israeli terror has targeted a boat full of international peace activists carrying medical supplies to Gaza.

The Israeli Navy rammed the boat several times causing extensive damage to the vessel. The boat limped its way to Lebanese waters where it was escorted by the Lebanese Navy into the southern port city of Tyre (Sour).

and as mentioned earlier in one of these threads, this happend in INTERNATIONAL waters. The Israeli navy was way out of line.

Quoting BA (Reply 102):
On a related note, Lebanon is donating $1 million in aid to Gaza and has declared a day of national mourning.

Thats great.

Norway is giving 30 million NOK ( ca 4.3 million USD ) in aid for starters to Gaza. The money will go through (WHO, (UNRWA), (ICRC) and NORWAC.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:59 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 100):
The amount of civilian deaths is way too high.

If anything, it is a super low figure. Compare it to when the US went into Fallujah...Considering the amount of airstrikes in a relatively small area, it is amazing that more civilians are not dying...

Quoting BA (Reply 102):
On a related note, Lebanon is donating $1 million in aid to Gaza and has declared a day of national mourning.

Good. Maybe it will unite them for a day or two before they break out fighting again.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:03 pm



Quoting Mham001 (Reply 75):
Will somebody please answer why Egypt is not catching hell here for border restrictions?

The Egyptians are now puppets of GWB

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 76):
What are you trying to say. Are you saying that they should leave their country so that the Israelis which have been there 60 years and are essentially just Europeans can take it. Is that the right thing to do.

Yes

Quoting Baroque (Reply 85):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 91):
"Egypt resists dealing with the Islamic militant Hamas because it opposes the militant group's 2007 takeover of the Gaza Strip and insists Abbas is the legitimate Palestinian leader."


Of course, because Abbas is the tame puppet of the US. Egypt is told who to back or they will never see their currency again.

What Obama might well inherit is an unstable Egypt if its opposition to Hamas proves fatal to the Egyptian government, which it could. That would be yet another mess for him to sort out after the disaster of the Bush years in the ME.

Okay who on this planet is not a puppet of the US and to even put this on Bush's plate is laughable. I guess the French. ENglish and the Rusian's along with all of the Arab states that have attacked the State of israel are blameless in this.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 90):
2-How about reading some of my quotes above and other posts by other forum members as to what the Israeli Govt. hasn't done and/or allowed

Once again the Israelis do not controll Egypt ot the Egyptian border. WHere is you outrage with the Arabs for not only not supplying their breathren across this border but actually stopping anyone from crossing.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:11 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 111):
WHere is you outrage with the Arabs for not only not supplying their breathren across this border but actually stopping anyone from crossing.

And once again Windy95 where is your regret for innocent civilian lives lost on the Palestinian side?
 
na
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:13 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 106):
Normally I would agree. But when these cvilians don't have a choice because they are living in a cage, I can't agree.

With those words you are enabling the terrorists to continue their bloody work because it automatically means forbidding their punishment, sorry.

Yes, Gaza could be called a big ghetto. Yes, those people there are poor and their prospects very limited. Still thats no excuse for terrorism, because supporting Hamas and other groups who are largely terrorists will not make their peoples prospcts better at all. Terrorism is inexcusable. Destroying the Hamas headquarters, and killing 200 Hamas members is justified. If this headquarter is standing in a residential area it shouldnt make it immune. In that case any evil organisation would hide behind harmless people (which most do) and celebrate big parties knowing no one will do them any harm.

Its all very, very sad, as Israel should be wise enough to know that a regular army ALONE cant win a war fought irregularly by the other side, not in a media-saturated world. The "Spiegel" quotes Lawrence of Arabia who said fighting a revolt is like eating soup with a knife. Ok, this is not exactly a revolt whats goeing on, but its not that far from it that this comparison wont illustrate the truth.
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:35 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 113):
With those words you are enabling the terrorists to continue their bloody work because it automatically means forbidding their punishment, sorry.

Sory but no, what I am saying is that since Israel treats these people like dirt, not allowing them to do anythintg or move anywhere, so because of that, they do not have a choice of being used as human shields or not. They can't do anything about it.

Quoting KSYR (Reply 107):
Like...?

not feeding the terrorists with new members. Give the civilians a chance to grow, to become prosperous, and you'll see how that tactic will harm Hamas much more than bombs.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 110):
If anything, it is a super low figure. Compare it to when the US went into Fallujah

Let's not go there ... I've got a couple of thoughts on that too, but this is a another thread.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 110):
it is amazing that more civilians are not dying...

we'll see a final death toll eventually, and I'm pretty sure the figure will be much higher
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
KSYR
Posts: 562
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:43 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 108):
Well that is wrong for starters as huge amount of civilian infrastructure was targeted in the attack on Lebanon including Beirut's international airport

The airport was targeted in an attempt to keep Hezbollah from flying the kidnapped Israeli soldiers out of the country. And yes, civilian infrastructure will be damaged when Hezbollah launches rockets from atop schools and hospitals.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 114):
not feeding the terrorists with new members. Give the civilians a chance to grow, to become prosperous, and you'll see how that tactic will harm Hamas much more than bombs.

They had a chance to choose their own government, and they chose Hamas. The people of Gaza will never have a chance to grow and become prosperous as long as they are launching rockets at Israel. What do you want Israel to do, ignore the rocket fire for a few years?

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