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Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:20 pm

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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:54 pm

Suprised no one posted this op-ed that appeared in the WSJ yesterday, but here is a link to a opinion piece written by the founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123137495711862883.html

IMO, the paragraph that stands out is about halfway through the article:

"Many people ask why there are so few Israeli casualties in comparison with the Palestinian death toll. It's because Israel's first priority is the safety of its citizens, which is why there are shelters and warning systems in Israeli towns. If Hamas can dig tunnels, it can certainly build shelters. Instead, it prefers to use women and children as human shields while its leaders rush into hiding."
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:56 pm

Just (hopefully) to settle one of the arguments we've been having on here, the Israeli Defence Force has now admitted that no fire was emanating from the UN school that was shelled by Israeli tanks, killing forty-odd kids:-

"The United Nations is claiming Israeli military officers have admitted there was no Palestinian gunfire emanating from inside an UNRWA school in Gaza which was shelled by an IDF tank.

"Dozens of Palestinians were killed in the shelling.

"In addition, UNRWA Thursday announced it will cease activities in the Strip due to the death of an UNRWA staffer in an IDF shelling during Thursday morning's humanitarian hiatus.

"UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness told Haaretz yesterday that the army had conceded wrongdoing.

"In briefings senior [Israel Defense Forces] officers conducted for foreign diplomats, they admitted the shelling to which IDF forces in Jabalya were responding did not originate from the school," Gunness said. "The IDF admitted in that briefing that the attack on the UN site was unintentional."


This (Israeli, Haaretz article) also appears to confirm that the Israeli 'PR machine' actually fabricated evidence of its claim that fire came from the school - by using film that emanated not from an incident in the last few days, but from one in 2007:-

"He noted that all the footage released by the IDF of militants firing from inside the school was from 2007 and not from the incident itself.

"There are no up-to-date photos," Gunness said. "In 2007, we abandoned the site and only then did the militants take it over."


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054009.html

That would appear to settle the facts of the case - except for three questions that will probably forever remain unanswered:-

1. WHY did a supposedly-disciplined army open fire on an obviously-civilian target - not just one round, at least three? I happen to know a bit about artillery - fieldguns, not tank guns, but the principles are the same. At the range involved (about 2,000 yards, I gather) all the details of the buildings, including the UN markings, would have been clearly visible through the telescopic sights. There can have been no possibility of a mistake. Someone ordered those gunners to aim directly at, and fire at, the school.

2. WHY, given that the unit had fired, did the officers concerned not submit reports in the normal way - thus eliminating any need for 'investigation' as to the basic facts (harking back to Kipling, the whats, whys, whens, hows, wheres, and whos of the case)?

3. (And most important, I reckon) HOW on earth could the PR side of a supposedly-disciplined force like the Israeli Army possibly fraudulently use photographs of a 2007 incident in an attempt to prove that the fire was justified?

[Edited 2009-01-09 05:01:16]
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:00 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 1):
but here is a link to a opinion piece written by the founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

Yes i am sure he is not 100% bias to Israel.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:01 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 254):

Just (hopefully) to settle one of the arguments we've been having on here, the Israeli Defence Force has now admitted that no fire was emanating from the UN school that was shelled by Israeli tanks, killing forty-odd kids:-

"The United Nations is claiming Israeli military officers have admitted there was no Palestinian gunfire emanating from inside an UNRWA school in Gaza which was shelled by an IDF tank.

"Dozens of Palestinians were killed in the shelling.

"In addition, UNRWA Thursday announced it will cease activities in the Strip due to the death of an UNRWA staffer in an IDF shelling during Thursday morning's humanitarian hiatus.

"UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness told Haaretz yesterday that the army had conceded wrongdoing.

"In briefings senior [Israel Defense Forces] officers conducted for foreign diplomats, they admitted the shelling to which IDF forces in Jabalya were responding did not originate from the school," Gunness said. "The IDF admitted in that briefing that the attack on the UN site was unintentional."

This (Israeli, Haaretz article) also appears to confirm that the Israeli 'PR machine' actually fabricated evidence of its claim that fire came from the school - by using film that emanated not from an incident in the last few days, but from one in 2007:-

"He noted that all the footage released by the IDF of militants firing from inside the school was from 2007 and not from the incident itself.

"There are no up-to-date photos," Gunness said. "In 2007, we abandoned the site and only then did the militants take it over."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054009.html

That would appear to settle the facts of the case - except for three questions that will probably forever remain unanswered:-

1. WHY did a supposedly-disciplined army open fire on an obviously-civilian target - not just one round, at least three? I happen to know a bit about artillery - fieldguns, not tank guns, but the principles are the same. At the range involved (about 4,000 yards, I gather) all the details of the buildings, including the UN markings, would have been clearly visible through the telescopic sights. There can have been no possibility of a mistake. Someone ordered those gunners to aim directly at, and fire at, the school.

2. WHY, given that the unit had fired, did the officers concerned not submit reports in the normal way - thus eliminating any need for 'investigation' as to the basic facts (harking back to Kipling, the whats, whys, whens, hows, wheres, and whos of the case)?

3. (And most important, I reckon) HOW on earth could the PR side of a supposedly-disciplined force like the Israeli Army possibly use photographs of a 2007 incident in an attempt to prove that the fire was justified?

I saved your remarks here in case your last reply gets canned for turning up after the thread was locked.

If this is all true, this is the first obvious case of Israel blatantly going after civilians and throws a shroud over the claims of other actions they take. I say "if this is true", though, because Haaertz is leftist (i.e. likely more sympathetic to the Palestinians than the normal Israeli may be) and I'd like some corroboration before I trust that report any further.
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:05 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 3):

Yes i am sure he is not 100% bias to Israel.

It's basically impossible to get something that is not biased to either side... even from neutral sources such as the Associated Press or the BBC there will be traces of bias unfortunately.
 
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:14 pm

Snap. Allstarflier - I copied it over as well.....  Smile

Agree with you that it's difficult to credit that such wickedness can have occurred. It'll be interesting to see if the IDF issues any denials.
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oly720man
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:15 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 1):
If Hamas can dig tunnels, it can certainly build shelters.

And if it can build shelters the IAF can use bunker busting bombs. What better place to hide weapons than a secure hole in the ground?
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:30 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 3):
Quoting Us330 (Reply 1):
but here is a link to a opinion piece written by the founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

Yes i am sure he is not 100% bias to Israel.

But it does not invalidate his premise that

Quoting Us330 (Reply 1):
If Hamas can dig tunnels, it can certainly build shelters. Instead, it prefers to use women and children as human shields while its leaders rush into hiding."

They use plenty of energy to wage war and build tunnels. If the would have put that energy into their people the last 60 years then they would not be in this position. They have to give up going back. The only way back to their "supposed" homeland is with the death of Israel. Time to move on and make their home now a better place. Other wise they are doomed for another 50 years of repeating the same sad story. It has to stop somewhere. Recognize Israel, make a deal that opens up the borders and lay down the weapons and start taking care of the next generation that will lead them out of the shithole. Stop looking to Israel to solve this. They are only part of the puzzle but not he answer.
 
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:45 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 8):
Time to move on and make their home now a better place. Other wise they are doomed for another 50 years of repeating the same sad story

They were forced to leave after the 48 war,then again after the 67 war now you want them to leave again after 2009 war.Somebady is greedy and trying to put his hands on more land.All settlement built after the 67 war are illegal,but since when does Israel care about legal or human rights of Palestinians?
As i said before you asking people to leave there homes and land because 50 years is long enough to forget but Israel was built on memories of 2000 years ago.Astonishing to say the least.
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allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:54 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 9):

What do you think would happen in the area if Hamas quit launching rockets? Do you think the Israeli attacks would stop? Do you think the conflicts would be lessened significantly?

Here's a question I don't remember seeing having been asked in these threads (at least not for a little while) - if Israel stops its incursion into Gaza, will Hamas quit firing rockets? If Hamas doesn't quit, what is the most sensible solution to getting them to stop? Because Israel warned them, the UN can't do a thing and the only other options is for change to happen from within Gaza (hasn't yet) or for other outside influence (other than the UN - say Egypt and Jordan - and neither of them have put the clamps on Hamas operations, either).
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:05 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 9):
They were forced to leave after the 48 war,then again after the 67 war now you want them to leave again after 2009 war

They where not all forced to leave in 48. Out of all of the refugees how many where forced out by the Irgun, The combat caused by the Arab armies attempt to destroy the Zionist or where told to leave by Arab leaders while they mopped up the Jews? They lost end of the story. Thus being called the Nakbah.

Same story in 67. Arab Armies massed on the borders of Israel. Israel won the Arabs lost end of story. Gaza has been given back since the. And what have they done except to wage war against israel Move on with the land you have in Gaza. Make peace and put down the weapons and the borders will open and the Children will have a better future.


What about the Jewish refugees from 48?

The Jewish exodus from Arab lands refers to the 20th century expulsion or mass departure of Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab and Islamic countries. The migration started in the late 19th century, but accelerated after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. According to official Arab statistics, 856,000 Jews left their homes in Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s. Some 600,000 resettled in Israel. Their descendants, and those of Iranian and Turkish Jews, now number 3.06 million of Israel's 5.4 to 5.8 million Jewish citizens. [1][not in citation given] The World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries (WOJAC) estimates that Jewish property in Arab countries would be valued today at more than $300 billion[2][3] and Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the State of Israel). [1][3]


While violence and discrimination against Jews in Arab countries started to increase several years before 1948, it escalated significantly starting in 1948 despite the fact that Jews were indigenous and for the most part held Arab citizenship. Sometimes the process was state sanctioned; at other times it was the consequence of anti-Jewish resentment by non-Jews. Harassment, persecution and the confiscation of property followed. Secondly and in response to mistreatment of Jews in these countries, a Zionist drive for Jewish immigration from Arab lands to Israel intensified. The great majority of Jews in Arab lands eventually emigrated to the modern State of Israel.[4] Activist groups such as JJAC and JIMENA claim that there was a collusion among Arab states to persecute Jews as part of their struggle against Israel.[5]

The process grew apace as Arab nations under French, British and Italian colonial rule or protection gained independence. Further, anti-Jewish sentiment within the Arab-majority states was exacerbated by the Arab-Israeli wars. Within a few years after the Six Day War (1967) there were only remnants of Jewish communities left in most Arab lands. Jews in Arab lands were reduced from more than 800,000 in 1948 to perhaps 16,000 in 1991.[4]

Some claim that the Jewish exodus from Arab lands is a historical parallel to the Palestinian exodus during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, while others reject this comparison as simplistic.[6]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands

Is it simplistic? Consider it an even swap. Move on the Jewish refugees did. take Gaza and the Portions of the West bank that they can get minus Jersulam thta neither side should claim and move on. Make a future not more endless war.
 
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:11 pm

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 8):
Recognize Israel, make a deal that opens up the borders

Which 'Israel,' Windy95? And which borders?

All the neighbouring states have been indicating for years that they will recognise Israel on the basis of the 1967 borders. That is, with the Golan Heights returned to Syria, the Shebaa Farms returned to Lebanon, East Jerusalem returned to the Palestinians, and the West Bank settlements dismantled.

[Edited 2009-01-09 06:18:25]
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:12 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 1):
"Many people ask why there are so few Israeli casualties in comparison with the Palestinian death toll. It's because Israel's first priority is the safety of its citizens, which is why there are shelters and warning systems in Israeli towns. If Hamas can dig tunnels, it can certainly build shelters. Instead, it prefers to use women and children as human shields while its leaders rush into hiding."

If Israel's first priority is its citizens, they should have found out by now that this way of attack will not stop terrorism, it more likely increase it

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
Just (hopefully) to settle one of the arguments we've been having on here, the Israeli Defence Force has now admitted that no fire was emanating from the UN school that was shelled by Israeli tanks, killing forty-odd kids:-

Then whoever gave the order should go through a murder trial.
I am still amazed that no one defending Israel's campaign has even criticized the school bombing. I ask this to them, what is the difference between what Israel did and a terrorist attack?

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 8):
They use plenty of energy to wage war and build tunnels. If the would have put that energy into their people the last 60 years then they would not be in this position.

And Israel does the same. They use their energy in keeping a blockade, and every now and then bomb someone somewhe. If Israel would have used their energy -and brains- in helping these people be prosperous, none of this would have happened. And just as a reminder, Israel is the country, the democratic state. Terrorists don't care about civilians and their energy will go towards their goal.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 10):
if Israel stops its incursion into Gaza, will Hamas quit firing rockets?

No, they will stop -maybe- once Israel stops its oppression.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
na
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:24 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 3):
Quoting Us330 (Reply 1):
but here is a link to a opinion piece written by the founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

Yes i am sure he is not 100% bias to Israel.

Biased, yes. Biased like the Palestinian cameramen who only film dead children and not dead Hamas.
The writer from the Wiesenthal center has a point. An important one.
Btw, the holocaust survivor Simon Wiesentahl, the founder, died in 2005. I guess that people in his institute are even more afraid and cautious when threatened with "elimination", dont you think?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
"The United Nations is claiming Israeli military officers have admitted there was no Palestinian gunfire emanating from inside an UNRWA school in Gaza which was shelled by an IDF tank.
"Dozens of Palestinians were killed in the shelling.

If true, it makes this tragedy inexcusable. But what about Hamas firing from close to the walls of the school? Is that also denied? If so, then it was a pure terror attack. I still cant believe that.
 
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:29 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 14):
If true, it makes this tragedy inexcusable. But what about Hamas firing from close to the walls of the school? Is that also denied? If so, then it was a pure terror attack.

It was a terror attack even if they fired rockets from across the street. You don't bomb schools period. If the enemy is using it as human shield, find a way to get around it. Acts like this one makes one wonder who is the bigger terrorist.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
na
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:46 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 15):
It was a terror attack even if they fired rockets from across the street. You don't bomb schools period. If the enemy is using it as human shield, find a way to get around it. Acts like this one makes one wonder who is the bigger terrorist.

I was surely a breach of the laws of war to fire directly at or at a place next to the school they knew lots of civilians were hiding in. But until final examination I grant the Israelis the benefit of doubt wether it was terror. Did they fire from across the street, in visual contact? Was the accused Hamas fire a direct lifethreat for the soldiers firing back or did the soldiers just see some gun fire? Were Hamas firing just a few meters aside from were the shells killed all those people or were they 100 meters away? Where did the shells hit the school? If in the middle, it was indeed a terror attack, no excuse. If it was a side building it was arguably a misguided grenade, something bad can happen under the stress of war. There are still too many questions to be answered to say this was a pure terror attack on civilians in Hamas-style.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 15):
If the enemy is using it as human shield, find a way to get around it.

 checkmark 
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:55 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 5):
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 3):

Yes i am sure he is not 100% bias to Israel.

It's basically impossible to get something that is not biased to either side... even from neutral sources such as the Associated Press or the BBC there will be traces of bias unfortunately.

Going back to 48 you have to read both sides and realize somewhere in the middle lies the answer. And both sides have to realize this if there is going to be a compromise and peace.
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:00 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
(And most important, I reckon) HOW on earth could the PR side of a supposedly-disciplined force like the Israeli Army possibly fraudulently use photographs of a 2007 incident in an attempt to prove that the fire was justified?

Well that was bound to bring down fire on Haaretz, but AFAICR they don't exactly have a long record of being wrong.

As seen from Aus, there always was something odd about the incident. Regev and a military guy whose name I forget were adamant about fire coming from the school/next to the school (the liaison between the two was a bit odd for a start) but none of those pictures was shown. That might have been that our TV stations (or the ones I watch) are too awake to get caught by year old pictures - I am always astonished by the archive facilities these guys seem to have.

The denials seemed to have a lack of plausibility. If Haaretz is correct, Regev is certainly pushing for the BB title, but presumably could have a career in competitive poker beckoning.

If it is as Haaretz states, and GoI knew, they have done themselves a major disservice by stonewalling for however many days that was.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 13):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 10):
if Israel stops its incursion into Gaza, will Hamas quit firing rockets?

No, they will stop -maybe- once Israel stops its oppression.

Refer also to Aarons answer in the previous thread (Part 6), Reply 228, worth repeating since the question is being asked again:
Aaron747 Reply 228,
I've posted what I feel is a reasonable solution numerous times - take the legs out from under Hamas - turn the locals against them - make the everyday Palestinian see that the Israeli government can and does do more for them than any terrorist can: Put an end to the apartheid-like conditions that give Palestinians, many of whom are otherwise skilled and talented people, a different standard of living than most Israelis. Put a stop to the settlement nonsense that rankles them. Put a stop to double-standards in the Israeli legal system. Restore legitimate authority to Palestinian local governments so that checkpoint IDF officers don't have more influence over a community than mayors do. Use Israeli money to improve Palestinian schools, hospitals, and elderly care centers. It can all be done if there's motivation by both the public and government to do so - the rocket, bus, and pizzeria attacks won't stop overnight, but they sure as hell will stop.
 
na
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:04 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 17):
Going back to 48 you have to read both sides and realize somewhere in the middle lies the answer. And both sides have to realize this if there is going to be a compromise and peace.

 checkmark 

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
"The United Nations is claiming Israeli military officers have admitted there was no Palestinian gunfire emanating from inside an UNRWA school in Gaza which was shelled by an IDF tank.

I hope that the Israeli forces learn from it, now they´ve admitted that. Another such incident from now on and the UN should send an ultimatum to Israel, threatening them with war crime investigations.
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:05 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 13):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 10):
if Israel stops its incursion into Gaza, will Hamas quit firing rockets?

No, they will stop -maybe- once Israel stops its oppression.

They did stop opression in 2005 when they left Gaza

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 13):
And Israel does the same. They use their energy in keeping a blockade

You mean the blockade with the Egytian border? Israel does not do the same. They try to protect themselves from terrorists and suicide bombers. If the terrorist and suicide bombers did not exist there would be no reason for walls or "blockades". Period

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 13):
And just as a reminder, Israel is the country, the democratic state. Terrorists don't care about civilians and their energy will go towards their goal.

I thought hamas was the democratically elected government of Gaza? Should not their energy have been towards thier people instead of the hated Jews. If they wouldl turn their energy inwards instead of too violence then they would not be in this spot right now.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 13):
If Israel's first priority is its citizens, they should have found out by now that this way of attack will not stop terrorism, it more likely increase it

your opinion

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 12):
Which 'Israel,' Windy95? And which borders?

All the neighbouring states have been indicating for years that they will recognise Israel on the basis of the 1967 borders. That is, with the Golan Heights returned to Syria, the Shebaa Farms returned to Lebanon, East Jerusalem returned to the Palestinians, and the West Bank settlements dismantled.

See this is where I agree with you. That would be the pill that Israel would have to swallow. But the Arabs would have to have a sweeping resolution to recognize Israel then at that border and stop the terrorism. ANd also to give up the right of return to anyone inside the Israeli 67 border. The only difference I have with you is that all of Jersualem needs to be a free zone. But otherwise I think that 67 would be a compromise on both parties that the world and the combatants should be made to live with.

Also for their parts in this mess I think that Egypt should donate some land next to Gaza to the Palestinians and also Jordan should give some next to the West Bank. Even the Syrian land should go to the palestinain for the part they played in this ongoing fiasco? Their armies for years helped create this mess and they should have to pay a price for the solution.

[Edited 2009-01-09 07:10:20]
 
KSYR
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:24 pm

Of course there was no gunfire coming from inside the school. Israel always claimed that it was coming from the exterior, which is where the Israeli artillery shells landed.
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:48 pm

Summary report of UN Office of Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs is in English as a PDF at

http://www.spiegel.de/media/0,4906,19661,00.pdf

Protection of civilians Weekly report for 1-8 January 2009.

Answers many of the questions that keep being repeated.

Two UNWRA schools were hit, killing 33 civilians. To 8 Jan approx (reading a graph) 240 children dead.

5 pages. Not quite sure why it is on the spiegel site, but it is.
 
na
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:00 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
http://www.spiegel.de/media/0,4906,19661,00.pdf

In the article this pdf is attached a UN commisioner for Human rights aks for investigations of possible war crimes commited by the IDF.

I wonder why Israel does not show any pictures of the successfully destroyed Hamas targets. They claim to have attacked 50 such identified places today alone, one next to a mosque. Where are the pictures of dead Hamas fighters with their guns and rockets? Dont they have war correspondents, even if in uniform?
 
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:22 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 20):
They did stop opression in 2005 when they left Gaza

leaving a blockade behind them. Not acceptable, and hardly did that stop oppression.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 20):
They try to protect themselves from terrorists and suicide bombers. If the terrorist and suicide bombers did not exist there would be no reason for walls or "blockades". Period

And if they need to invade Gaza again, obviously the blockade tactic is not working

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 20):
your opinion

That always seems to show up whenever there is not an answer.

Regardless of opinions:

257 children killed (out of 778) so far. That's 33% of all casualties, and I'm not even mentioning women and other civilians. That is not my opinion, that is a sad FACT, and no one defending Israel seems to care about that.

[
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:25 pm



Quoting KSYR (Reply 21):
Of course there was no gunfire coming from inside the school. Israel always claimed that it was coming from the exterior, which is where the Israeli artillery shells landed.

Are you sure of that? There were photographs of small (fresh) craters inside the walls. Also no sign of walls blown down, so why the high casualties inside if the shells were outside.

Much to explain.
 
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:33 pm

A Palestinioan / Norwegian family was shot at by Israeli forces at a border crossing today. The family was in a UN market vehical. Husban and wife and their 5 children.


They were not injured, but had to wait until Norwegian authorities had contacted Israeli government. The family got to pass the boarder after waiting two hours.
 
us330
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:44 pm

EZEIZA,
I do care. I think it is an absolute shame when any civilian, whether child, teenager, or adult, dies. Unfortunately, while the goal of any military operation is to minimize civilian casualties, in the era of urban warfare, where wars are fought in populated areas and not on rural battlefields, zero civilian casualties are impossible. I hate saying this, I really do, because it seems justify civilian casualties, which is not my intent, but seeing the number of civilian casualties doesn't shock me simply because I have begrudgingly accepted the fact that they were inevitable. Israel can only try its best at minimizing civilian deaths without making it impossible for them to achieve their strategic goal. Seeing as how Israel has a much better track record than Hamas at not targeting civilians, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

As an aside, both Israel and Hamas have rejected the UN Security Council's resolution for a truce.

Also, the New York Post is reporting that Israel has discovered a map drawn by Hamas that describes how they exploit Gaza's civilians.
Link is here:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/01092009...orldnews/hamas_evil_map_149364.htm
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:11 pm

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/01/2...nlawful-despite-gaza-border-breach

Israel withdrew its military forces and settlers from the Gaza Strip in 2005, but it still controls Gaza’s airspace, territorial waters, and land borders – with the exception this week of the Rafah border area with Egypt. Israel is Gaza’s primary supplier of electricity, which is essential for water availability and sewage treatment. In addition, Israel controls Gaza’s telecommunications network, its population registry, and its customs and tax revenues. Israeli security forces have frequently re-entered Gaza at will.

...
Since Hamas took over the Palestinian Authority in March 2006, following its electoral victory the previous January, and especially after Hamas captured Israeli corporal Gilad Shalit that June, Israel has made it exceedingly difficult for Palestinians to leave Gaza. Following Hamas’s violent seizure of power in Gaza from rival Fatah forces in June 2007, Israel has arbitrarily blocked, delayed and harassed people with emergency medical problems who need to leave Gaza for urgent care. Some Palestinian patients unable to reach hospitals in Israel or Egypt have died.

Approximately 6,000 people with foreign citizenship, permanent foreign residency, work permits, student visas, or university admissions abroad, have been trapped inside the territory and denied exit permits for unspecified “security reasons.”

...
Israeli officials have said they would not allow the blockade to cause a humanitarian crisis. “We will not hit food supplies for children or medicines for the needy,” Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said this week.

“Israeli leaders have been playing word games, claiming that each new turn of the screw would not create a humanitarian crisis,” Stork said. “But the ordinary people of Gaza – those with no connection to militants – have been living such a crisis for more than a year as the economy collapses, the lights go out, and the sewage overflows.”

Statements by Israeli officials this week appear to acknowledge that the blockade amounts to collective punishment. Olmert on January 24 said: “There is no justification for demanding we allow residents of Gaza to live normal lives while shells and rockets are fired from their streets and courtyards at Sderot and other communities in the south.”

Defense Ministry spokesman Shlomo Dror said that, “If Palestinians don’t stop the violence, I have a feeling the life of people in Gaza is not going to be easy.”

...
Egypt shares some of the blame for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, having largely kept its border with Rafah closed during the Israeli blockade, Human Rights Watch said. In the future, it should take steps to facilitate the flow of people and goods, especially humanitarian aid and emergency medical cases, while controlling the flow of arms and material used to attack Israeli civilians.

“The past three days prove that Egypt can contribute to alleviating the humanitarian crisis in Gaza,” Stork said.


http://www.khaleejtimes.com/darticle...December527.xml§ion=middleeast
THE BURDEN OF GAZA—Cairo believes that if it left the Egypt-Gaza border wide open Israel would wash its hands of responsibility for ensuring the Gazans receive enough to keep them alive—food, water, medical supplies, electricity and other essentials. Egyptian diplomats say that Israel would seal the border with Gaza on its side, diverting all trade and traffic through Egypt.

The burden would be a drain on Egyptian resources and the authorities might find it hard to prevent an influx of Gaza Palestinians seeking work and housing.

In one worst-case scenario Israel might hold Egypt responsible for any attacks on Israel launched from Gaza, forcing Egypt to act as Gaza policeman—a role fraught with danger. Egypt’s presence in Gaza between 1948 and 1967, and its inability to impose full control on Palestinian groups there, helped drag Egypt into war with Israel in 1956 and 1967.

....

THE U.S. ALLIANCE—The United States, without significant dissent from the European Union, has pressed Egypt to maintain the blockade, in the belief that it will weaken Hamas and force it into submission. Egypt, despite reservations about many aspects of U.S. foreign policy, still receives about $1.4 billion a year in U.S. aid and has a strategic alliance with Washington. The Egyptian government has the tacit support of conservative Arab rulers and pays little heed to more confrontational states in the region, such as Syria and Iran.

That is bylined REUTERS.
 
Gman94
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:14 pm

Egypt closed the border with Gaza as they do not want Hamas militancy spreading into Egypt, also Israel controls the air and sea space and destroyed Gaza's airport in their previous raids on Gaza. Israel also kicks up a stink every time Egypt talks about reopening the border.
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jutes85
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:34 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 30):
Egypt closed the border with Gaza as they do not want Hamas militancy spreading into Egypt,

Seems to be they don't want the Palestinian population spreading into Egypt either. Right now it looks like the Palestinians are the unwanted orphan children of the Arab world.
nothing
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:49 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 29):
Egypt closed the border with Gaza as they do not want Hamas militancy spreading into Egypt, also Israel controls the air and sea space and destroyed Gaza's airport in their previous raids on Gaza. Israel also kicks up a stink every time Egypt talks about reopening the border.



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 30):
Quoting Gman94 (Reply 30):
Egypt closed the border with Gaza as they do not want Hamas militancy spreading into Egypt,

Seems to be they don't want the Palestinian population spreading into Egypt either. Right now it looks like the Palestinians are the unwanted orphan children of the Arab world.

So Egypt controls the Border with Gaza. But they keep it closed becuase Israel might kick up a stink. Sounds like Egypt is blockading the Palestinians also. But let us give all of the blame to Israel  Yeah sure
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:00 pm



Quoting US330 (Reply 27):
is to minimize civilian casualties, in the era of urban warfare,

I agree, but this does not seem the case where civilian casualties are being kept to a minimum. 33% of the causalties are children, added to women and men, I'm guessing about 50% of casualties are civilian. I can't see that as keeping it to a minumum.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 31):
So Egypt controls the Border with Gaza. But they keep it closed becuase Israel might kick up a stink. Sounds like Egypt is blockading the Palestinians also. But let us give all of the blame to Israel Yeah sure

Guess who is calling up Cairo and telling them what not to do .. you know, cause they are all buddies  Wink


And in any case, yes, they are both wrong, but Israel has more blood on their hands
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:44 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 18):
Refer also to Aarons answer in the previous thread (Part 6), Reply 228, worth repeating since the question is being asked again:
Aaron747 Reply 228,
I've posted what I feel is a reasonable solution numerous times - take the legs out from under Hamas - turn the locals against them - make the everyday Palestinian see that the Israeli government can and does do more for them than any terrorist can: Put an end to the apartheid-like conditions that give Palestinians, many of whom are otherwise skilled and talented people, a different standard of living than most Israelis. Put a stop to the settlement nonsense that rankles them. Put a stop to double-standards in the Israeli legal system. Restore legitimate authority to Palestinian local governments so that checkpoint IDF officers don't have more influence over a community than mayors do. Use Israeli money to improve Palestinian schools, hospitals, and elderly care centers. It can all be done if there's motivation by both the public and government to do so - the rocket, bus, and pizzeria attacks won't stop overnight, but they sure as hell will stop.

Question on this solution, how many Israelis will have to die before this takes hold? We know that Hamas stated goal is the destruction of the Israeli state, with Open Borders we can rest assured that operatives will be sent to create mischief and mayhem. The problem that Palestinians have right now is that prior to the Hamas election, the security procedures to go through the border was onerous, unless Israel is willing to sacrifice some of its citizens to implement this plan, those restrictions would have to be implemented, which puts us back to square one, is it really a realistic option?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
Just (hopefully) to settle one of the arguments we've been having on here, the Israeli Defence Force has now admitted that no fire was emanating from the UN school that was shelled by Israeli tanks, killing forty-odd kids:-

We now taking them at their word, are they trustworthy, can we rely on them to conduct an investigation when they are being called murderer's of innocent women and children?
It is a strange dilema we find ourselves in.

Unfortunate times all around.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:45 pm

I am on neither side. So much death and destruction.
What are both camps trying to achieve?
Palestinians by provoking Israel and Israelis by massacring Palestinians?
There are also a lot of foreign weapons involved in this war.
Looks more like it is going to escalate rather than stop.
Let's see what happens when the Iran Aid ship gets to Gaza.
Will Israel find a pretext and attack it or will it be the other way?
I wish this war would stop before it gets worse. I fear the worst.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:04 pm

When the Iran aid ship arrives it will be turned away as expected, the question would then be what is Irans motivation, if they accept that as an act of war, the number of deaths in the current Gaza will pale into insigfinicance, so what are we really trying to achieve?

The previous ship was a PR show geared for media coverage, is this one the same, except geared more toward the Arab world to show Iran as a major force?

Everyone has their own agenda's unfortunately, the Israelis and the Palestininans are not yet ready to resolve their differences without out-side help, as long as that continues, out-siders will bring both the good and the bad.
 
Flighty
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:18 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 5):
It's basically impossible to get something that is not biased to either side... even from neutral sources such as the Associated Press or the BBC there will be traces of bias unfortunately.

I don't think it is fair to sweep away bias. Bias is real. In this case it is laughable.

In future years, Palestinian and Arab Studies majors at major universities will probably study the behavior and rhetoric of Israel with interest. Particularly how armed men in their culture are called "terrorists" by Israel and the USA. Not humans, but terrorists, like parasites to be exterminated. This language will leave a mark, a stain on Israel. The language itself is an act of aggression. This, too will be studied.


I think it is a shame Israel has decided to weaken and demean itself in this way. To become a senseless killer is to lose one's way. If one must resort to violence, one has already lost. So israel has lost this conflict, strategically and morally. If I were a Palestinian (and I'm not) I would be overjoyed at the vastly increased power and prestige of Hamas thanks to this conflict. It is a gift from Israel to Hamas, a group of men who do not deserve this incredible enhancement of their profile, their reputation. Suddenly Hamas can go toe to toe with Israel, absorbing casualties with apparent ease and strategically advancing.

Instead of being strong, Israel is growing weaker. With each Arab or Palestinian they kill, (often under the guise of "murder prevention" or "pre-crime," Israel's cause and moral standing declines. Someday, Israel may have a great non-violent leader who can challenge Hamas to accept peace and honor. This is what Gandhi did to Britain. And he won, inevitably. Israel will never get anywhere by shooting up a mud village and acting like they are cool for doing so. They are smart enough to know it accomplishes nothing, which makes this just a venue for bloodlust and the desire to kill, in a battle that cannot be won by killing. Each civilian killed is -100. So if Israel kills 500 soldiers and 200 civilians, they actually created 20,000 new warriors. This is like hitting yourself in the face. It speaks of pride and avarice, not practicality.

On the topic of "Western powers never aim for civilians," I would direct them to the bombing campaigns of Dresden, Nagasaki and London. It seems that Western powers can, and do target civilians during total war. Obviously, Hamas has claimed total war as a moral stand. They are not the first to do so; and it is not always wrong. The bombing of Dresden helped to defeat Nazi Germany. Therefore many people feel it was morally acceptable. Targeting civilians is OK if it prevents a worldwide axis takeover. This is what total war is. Hamas has said that they would rather die than be humiliated. It was not necessary to back them into that corner. It's also not entirely acceptable to just kill them, even if they are asking for it. Ultimately the powerful do have moral responsibility, and the weak get the benefit of the doubt. Israel is the only group that can strategically solve this. Yet they choose to kill instead, prolonging the agony for not only Palestine, but agony and death for their own country as well. It seems to me that the leaders of Israel not only hate Arabs, they appear to dislike Jews as well.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:08 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 31):
So Egypt controls the Border with Gaza.

LOL... Ive been away for a few days but the posts still are the same. whats this obsession with the Egypt - Gaza border. We heard this in thread 1-6 . Can we move on ?

---------------------------------------------

Fierce fighting is continuing in the Gaza Strip as both Israel and Hamas militants defy a UN call for an immediate end to hostilities.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the latest Hamas rocket attacks on his country showed the United Nations Security Council resolution was "unworkable".

Hamas has also rejected the call, saying it does not meet its minimum demands.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wor...nues_Despite_UN_Call_For_Ceasefire
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:42 pm

Welcome back OA260.
Well same discussions with a small twist
Blame Egypt for the suffering of Gaza civilians
Israel does nothing wrong
Civilians in 2 schools under UN flag killed but Israel was not to blame
110 persons moved from there houses by the IDF to another building 24 hours later was shelled and 30 people killed.
Very interesting posting by AAron
But discussions were all friendly and polite thanks to the moderators.
Business as usual
Hope u went somewhere nice will look for your trip report.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:49 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 31):
So Egypt controls the Border with Gaza.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing
http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/Rafah_Crossing.asp
This will show who really control of Rafah crossing
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:11 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 38):
Welcome back OA260.

Thanks. Back to work today and rarely agree with my boss on issues so I expected something smart when we started to chat about Gaza but she said she was totally disgusted at whats being allowed to go on. That was the majority in our office of 26 also.

My Mother was 50/50 until she saw the dead kids being pulled out of the School and she was horrified at Israel. She came to the conclusion that Israel should not fire where there are innocent kids and Mothers around. Then I told her about these threads and she said she would rather not read them.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 38):
Hope u went somewhere nice will look for your trip report.

Its already up LOL...

----------------

The world has yet again failed and as usual they come to some agreement when the conflict is already in mid flow and hundreds have been killed. Look what they did in Rwanda, I guess theres no hope for Gaza when they allow genocide in Africa.
 
AGM100
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:51 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 40):
Look what they did in Rwanda, I guess theres no hope for Gaza when they allow genocide in Africa.

1. Accept Israel's existence. Make some gesture of coexistence .
2. Tell Iran to get there army off the land.

Done deal , all of the pressure would be back on Israel to give then anything they want.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 36):
Someday, Israel may have a great non-violent leader who can challenge Hamas to accept peace and honor.

And how would that work ? Lets say John Lennon became president of Israel ... and said OK Hamas we are giving peace a chance ? What is next ?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 36):
This is what Gandhi did to Britain.

Britain wanted out for the most part , although I like Gandhi a good bit ... he was not negotiating with Hamas. A whole lot different .
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Aaron747
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:09 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
1. Accept Israel's existence. Make some gesture of coexistence

Utter nonsense. Hamas will never accept Israel as legitimate and their suppliers in Iran and elsewhere would never allow it.

All the more reason what I have said is the only hope for peace - Israel must take the moral high ground, end the retaliatory (not defense) nonsense and give the Palestinians a reason to see the Israeli government as the only source of improved education, economic prospects and overall quality of life. It won't happen overnight, but that course of action will eliminate the terrorists and any sympathies toward them. If they are so desperate they will resort to killing their own, and knowing the local culture, we know how that will turn out.
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:14 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
1. Accept Israel's existence. Make some gesture of coexistence .
2. Tell Iran to get there army off the land.

Goes both ways. You can't expect that unless Israel does the same and opens up the borders.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
And how would that work ? Lets say John Lennon became president of Israel ... and said OK Hamas we are giving peace a chance ? What is next ?

And why not? It will take time, but it might just work. That would be a gesture of coexistence, right?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
Britain wanted out for the most part , although I like Gandhi a good bit ... he was not negotiating with Hamas. A whole lot different .

Israel isn't negotiating too much either  Wink
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:17 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 45):
Israel must take the moral high ground, end the retaliatory (not defense) nonsense and give the Palestinians a reason to see the Israeli government as the only source of improved education, economic prospects and overall quality of life.

That certainly is a good idea and in the end would work. Hamas would offer people nothing and then people would turn against them. But I think in the last few weeks Israel has made any such prospect even harder to try.

If they pumped money into Gaza and re built everything and made peoples living standards on parr with those in Israel/Occupied land then maybe they would get further.

When you are bombarded with terror and missiles you back things and groups you wouldnt normally. Im sure the kids who lay by their dead mothers will have no love for Israel. If they turn 18 or 20 and join some fanatic group who is to judge them.
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:07 am

Funny what you find........

I was looking at Haaretz (a newspaper I admire) and came across this story (excerpts):-

"The United States is seeking to hire a merchant ship to deliver hundreds of tons of arms to Israel from Greece later this month, tender documents seen by Reuters show.

"The U.S. Navy's Military Sealift Command said the ship was to carry 325 standard 20-foot containers of what is listed as "ammunition" on two separate journeys from the Greek port of Astakos to the Israeli port of Ashdod in mid-to-late January.

"A "hazardous material" designation on the manifest mentions explosive substances and detonators, but no other details were given.

"Shipping 3,000-odd tons of ammunition in one go is a lot," one broker said, on condition of anonymity.

"This (kind of request) is pretty rare and we haven't seen much of it quoted in the market over the years," he added.

"The U.S. Defense Department, contacted by Reuters on Friday in Washington, had no immediate comment.

"The MSC transports armor and military supplies for the U.S. armed forces aboard its own fleet, but regularly hires merchant ships if logistics so require.

"The request for the ship was made on Dec. 31, with the first leg of the charter to arrive no later than January 25 and the second at the end of the month.

-------------------------

"A senior military analyst in London who declined to be named said that, because of the timing, the shipments could be "irregular" and linked to the Gaza offensive.

"The ship hired by the MSC in December was for a much larger cargo of arms, tender documents showed.

"That stipulated a ship to be chartered for 42 days capable of carrying 989 standard 20-foot containers from Sunny Point, North Carolina to Ashdod.

"The tender document said the vessel had to be capable of "carrying 5.8 million pounds (2.6 million kg) of net explosive weight", which specialist brokers said was a very large quantity.

---------------------

"In September, the U.S. Congress approved the sale of 1,000 bunker-buster missiles to Israel. The GPS-guided GBU-39 is said to be one of the most accurate bombs in the world."


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054236.html

Allowing for the time required to order and produce all that stuff and ship it to Europe, there can be no reasonable doubt that the Gaza invasion was no 'spur of the moment' reaction to the launching of rockets from Gaza; but was planned and prepared for over a period of many months.

Nor can there be any 'reasonable doubt' that the US Government participated fully in the process and knew all about the planned attack on Gaza, well in advance..........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:25 am



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 39):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 31):
So Egypt controls the Border with Gaza.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing
http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/Rafah_Crossing.asp
This will show who really control of Rafah crossing

I had missed those two. So adding those references we have, first from the second reference:

Following the disengagement, Israel withdrew its forces from the southern border between Gaza and Egypt. At first, many thought that this brought an end to Israel's control of the border crossing between Gaza and Egypt, known as Rafah Crossing, which is now the only border crossing in the Gaza Strip that is not subject direct Israeli control. However, as time passed, it became clear that Israel retained the power to open and close the crossing at will, and since Hamas’s takeover of the Palestinian security forces in Gaza, in June 2007, it has been almost permanently closed. With Rafah Crossing closed, Gazans are unable to go abroad, even to meet their humanitarian needs, such as urgent medical treatment. However, in recent months, Hamas has coordinated with Egypt the opening of the crossing for a few hours on various occasions to enable the crossing of sick persons, students, and persons stuck on either side of the border.
The Crossings Agreement

Hamas’ takeover of the Gaza Strip also resulted in the freezing of implementation of the Agreement on Movement and Access (the "Crossings Agreement”), which regulated the operation of Rafah Crossing. Under the agreement, made by Israel and the Palestinian Authority in November 2005, the Palestinian Authority operated the crossing in cooperation with Egypt. However, the agreement placed significant restrictions on the powers of the Palestinian Authority:

* Monitors from the European Union were posted at the crossing and empowered to prevent crossing if the conditions of the agreement were not met.

* Israeli security forces monitored activity at the crossing via closed circuit camera and data systems that provided it with real-time information on the persons entering and exiting the crossing.

* The Palestinian Authority was allowed to permit entry via the crossing only to "Palestinian residents", that is, Palestinians who were registered in the Palestinian population registry and carried Palestinian identity cards. In cases in which Israel informed the Palestinian Authority that a person was listed as a security risk, the PA had to consult with Israeli officials and the EU monitors before allowing the person to cross.

Also, Israel could close the crossing down by preventing the EU monitors from getting to the crossing, given that the agreement stipulated the crossing would not be opened in the absence of the monitors. When Israel informed the monitors of a security warning that necessitated closing of the crossing, the monitors did not take their positions at the crossing and it remained closed. Since the abduction of Cpl. Shalit, Israel has used this method to prevent orderly movement at the crossing. In doing so, it imposes an almost total siege on the Gaza Strip, with nobody entering or leaving.
......
On the few days when Israel does elect to allow the opening of the crossing, notice is given to the EU monitors only a few hours in advance. Such last-minute notification makes it impossible for people in Gaza to plan their travels, and leaves those who go abroad uncertain as to when they will be able to return to the Strip.


And from Wiki:

The Rafah crossing was opened on 25 November 2005 and operated nearly daily until 25 June 2006.[1] Since that time it has been closed by Israel on 86% of days due to security reasons.[1] It was not opened for the export of goods.[1] In June 2007, the crossing was closed entirely after the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip.

The EU Ambassador to Israel said that EUBAM monitors could not return to man the crossing because the legal basis for EUBAM - the November 2005 agreement on movement and access - specified that the terminal was to be manned by the Fatah-aligned Force 17, who were no longer there.[2]

On January 23, 2008, masked gunmen demolished the wall, that Hamas-linked militants had apparently weakened in 2007,[3] dividing the Egyptian and Palestinian portions of Rafah,[citation needed] and several hundred thousand Gazans entered Egypt, most of them to purchase food and supplies.[3] (See 2008 breach of the Gaza–Egypt border.)

On December 27, 2008, Egypt opened the crossing to care for the wounded after the Israeli airstrikes in Gaza (See 2008 Gaza Strip bombings.)


To which I will add previously posted information because it is still being ignored - if the questions can be repeated, surely the answers can also be repeated?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/01/2...nlawful-despite-gaza-border-breach

Israel withdrew its military forces and settlers from the Gaza Strip in 2005, but it still controls Gaza’s airspace, territorial waters, and land borders – with the exception this week of the Rafah border area with Egypt. Israel is Gaza’s primary supplier of electricity, which is essential for water availability and sewage treatment. In addition, Israel controls Gaza’s telecommunications network, its population registry, and its customs and tax revenues. Israeli security forces have frequently re-entered Gaza at will.

...
Since Hamas took over the Palestinian Authority in March 2006, following its electoral victory the previous January, and especially after Hamas captured Israeli corporal Gilad Shalit that June, Israel has made it exceedingly difficult for Palestinians to leave Gaza. Following Hamas’s violent seizure of power in Gaza from rival Fatah forces in June 2007, Israel has arbitrarily blocked, delayed and harassed people with emergency medical problems who need to leave Gaza for urgent care. Some Palestinian patients unable to reach hospitals in Israel or Egypt have died.

Approximately 6,000 people with foreign citizenship, permanent foreign residency, work permits, student visas, or university admissions abroad, have been trapped inside the territory and denied exit permits for unspecified “security reasons.”

...
Israeli officials have said they would not allow the blockade to cause a humanitarian crisis. “We will not hit food supplies for children or medicines for the needy,” Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said this week.

“Israeli leaders have been playing word games, claiming that each new turn of the screw would not create a humanitarian crisis,” Stork said. “But the ordinary people of Gaza – those with no connection to militants – have been living such a crisis for more than a year as the economy collapses, the lights go out, and the sewage overflows.”

Statements by Israeli officials this week appear to acknowledge that the blockade amounts to collective punishment. Olmert on January 24 said: “There is no justification for demanding we allow residents of Gaza to live normal lives while shells and rockets are fired from their streets and courtyards at Sderot and other communities in the south.”

Defense Ministry spokesman Shlomo Dror said that, “If Palestinians don’t stop the violence, I have a feeling the life of people in Gaza is not going to be easy.”

...
Egypt shares some of the blame for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, having largely kept its border with Rafah closed during the Israeli blockade, Human Rights Watch said. In the future, it should take steps to facilitate the flow of people and goods, especially humanitarian aid and emergency medical cases, while controlling the flow of arms and material used to attack Israeli civilians.

“The past three days prove that Egypt can contribute to alleviating the humanitarian crisis in Gaza,” Stork said.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/darticle...December527.xml§ion=middleeast
THE BURDEN OF GAZA—Cairo believes that if it left the Egypt-Gaza border wide open Israel would wash its hands of responsibility for ensuring the Gazans receive enough to keep them alive—food, water, medical supplies, electricity and other essentials. Egyptian diplomats say that Israel would seal the border with Gaza on its side, diverting all trade and traffic through Egypt.

The burden would be a drain on Egyptian resources and the authorities might find it hard to prevent an influx of Gaza Palestinians seeking work and housing.

In one worst-case scenario Israel might hold Egypt responsible for any attacks on Israel launched from Gaza, forcing Egypt to act as Gaza policeman—a role fraught with danger. Egypt’s presence in Gaza between 1948 and 1967, and its inability to impose full control on Palestinian groups there, helped drag Egypt into war with Israel in 1956 and 1967.

....

THE U.S. ALLIANCE—The United States, without significant dissent from the European Union, has pressed Egypt to maintain the blockade, in the belief that it will weaken Hamas and force it into submission. Egypt, despite reservations about many aspects of U.S. foreign policy, still receives about $1.4 billion a year in U.S. aid and has a strategic alliance with Washington. The Egyptian government has the tacit support of conservative Arab rulers and pays little heed to more confrontational states in the region, such as Syria and Iran.
That is bylined REUTERS.

 
jutes85
Posts: 1854
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:50 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:43 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 37):
Fierce fighting is continuing in the Gaza Strip as both Israel and Hamas militants defy a UN call for an immediate end to hostilities.

So neither side wants to end the fighting. Let them fight it out until one side is completely distroyed or until the world finally says enough is enough.
nothing
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:49 am



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 47):
So neither side wants to end the fighting. Let them fight it out until one side is completely distroyed or until the world finally says enough is enough.

Hello, Planet Earth calling. The world said enough was enough before it started - in other words DO NOT DO IT. What are you waiting for?
 
jutes85
Posts: 1854
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:50 pm

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 7

Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:20 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 48):
in other words DO NOT DO IT. What are you waiting for?

It's too late for that. Israel is a sovereign nation that protects it's citizens first, just like ANY sovereign nation would do. By continuing this war Hamas is just hurting the Palestinians more than the Israelis. Hamas wants to see more Palestinian casualties than anything else, they know they can't defeat the Israeli Military so why continue this pathetic attempt at combat?
nothing

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