israel plans 73,300 new housing units in the West Bank...


15 000 has already gotten approval.


If the plans go ahead with the rest, the amount of settlements in the occupied territories in the West Bank will double.


http://www.peacenow.org/updates.asp?rid=0&cid=5991

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/article2955953.ece

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/midtosten/artikkel.php?artid=537379

Never thought I'd say this, but I miss Ariel Sharon a little...

Cheers
Mats

Neither Hamas nor those right-wing people want peace. It seems they only get their power in elections if they continue that madness...

Building this on occupied land will no doubt lead to more resentment and anger from the Palestinians. Why are the Israelis building there?? It's illegal.

I do not know who is smarter here...... just another step for Israel in the wrong direction.....

Wait till all of the above are called anti Semitic. Those new housing are illegal. they are built on land not owned by the Israeli government. Oh Israel does not abide by international laws unless it suits her. Nothing new here. Peace is disappearing fast.

IMO the Israeli's and the Jordanians need to set the West Bank aside for the Palestinians. The Trans-Jordan was their natural home anyway and it seems fit they should be given that land for their own. Both the Israeli's and Jordanians should do everything they can to help them settle there and set up. As long as Hamas does not come along with them the Jordanians and Israeli's should do everything they can to help.
Israel had an opportunity to give that land back years ago and for one reason or another failed to do it. IMO Now is the time to do so. The settlers will have to decide whether to stay on (under Palestinian rule) or move, they knew when they located there that there was always risk. I hope there is enough of a moderate voice in the new coalition to accomplish this.

AND in the event such a miracle should happen---------I hope for the sake of the everyday Palestinian people that----just for once ------they will not elect terrorists to represent them!
Hamas needs to move to Iran where they will feel at home.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 6): Hamas needs to move to Iran where they will feel at home.

Or Hamas can dissolve it's military wing(s) and become a political movement. I think this is a better solution.
Same thing can apply to Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Quoting Raffik (Reply 3): Building this on occupied land will no doubt lead to more resentment and anger from the Palestinians. Why are the Israelis building there?? It's illegal.

And any response from the Palesitnians will be well-deserved.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 5): Wait till all of the above are called anti Semitic. Those new housing are illegal. they are built on land not owned by the Israeli government. Oh Israel does not abide by international laws unless it suits her. Nothing new here. Peace is disappearing fast.

I don't see how anyone could call the criticisms here anti-semitic. But i know what you are saying. I support Israel's right to exist and defend itself. But this to me is a clear sign that there are some Israelis who in fact do not desire peace.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 2): Neither Hamas nor those right-wing people want peace.

This, sadly, is my final assessment too.

Quoting JM017 (Reply 8): I support Israel's right to exist and defend itself.

Believe or not i do to. But peace needs both sides, and at this moment my hopes are not high.

It is amazing, it is never ending from both sides. Someone is always stirring the pot. Israel and the opposing sides do it constantly. Obama is in, let us stir it up. Like a merry-go-round, around and around we go.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 9): But peace needs both sides, and at this moment my hopes are not high.

I honestly had some hope, until this plan (or one like it) was mentioned a while ago. And then came the election. The implications of a Likud win was clear to all. Still, that's pretty much what happened. Yeah, I have no hope either. Can't have peace unless both sides want it. And actions speak louder than words.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 5): Wait till all of the above are called anti Semitic.

All of the above are anti-semitic. And furthermore, the OP is a Norwegian, and thus, as I believe we established in another thread, is a member of a barbaric and backward society.

Remember, any and all criticisms of Israel and/or Israeli policy is anti-semitic. This is because there was a Holocaust againt the Jews 70 years ago. Thus, the Jews can do no wrong. By the transitive argument, nor can Israel.

You are all a bunch of Nazis. And you all hate bunny rabbits and like to club baby seals for fun.

(And no, this post isn't serious. However, the following is: I am disgusted with Israel and I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't time for the UN to actually start taking military action against Israel to force them to stop this nonsense).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12): And you all hate bunny rabbits and like to club baby seals for fun.

I, for one, actually prefer to club my baby seals with a bunny rabbit.

Cheers
Mats

The last few months' happenings in Israel/Palestine have been disconcerting to say the least. First Israel takes advantage of a lame duck presidency in the US in order to unleash a war and destroy Gaza using US weapons, cause unprecedented death and destruction, then withdraw and leave the rest of the world to pay to reconstruct what the they flattened - all during the midst of a financial crisis.

And now after all that they are going to push ahead with constructing settlements on occupied land - in an attempt to thwart any future peace agreement. Who wants to believe that Israel has any interest in peace now?

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter): If the plans go ahead with the rest, the amount of settlements in the occupied territories in the West Bank will double.

Quoting Raffik (Reply 3): Why are the Israelis building there??

Quoting Swissy (Reply 4): I do not know who is smarter here

I am first and foremost against my taxes (American) going to Israel and I question the validity of creating Israel at the end of WW2 in Palestine.

However, I actually think the Israelis are smart to do this. Yes, it will piss off the Palestinians, but world attention is still focused on their role as victims in the Gaza mess, so these new settlements will probably get less attention. Although the world had no problem displacing 10s of 1000s Palestinains for the new Israelis in the 1940s, the more Israelis who live in the West Bank the greater Israel's argument that it should be under Israel's control.

Cairo

If I were the Palestinians, I would welcome Israeli settlements all over the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.

The more spread out the Israeli settlements are, the less of a possibility there will be for a 2 state solution. It will become impossible to partition the land in any practical manner.

If this were to occur, and given current demographic trends, the Israelis would soon find themselves a minority in their own country and Israel as a Jewish state would be doomed.

I do support Israel, as well. In fact, I supported the Gaza operation to some extent, but these new settlements do not help peace at all...

Quoting Victrola (Reply 16): the Israelis would soon find themselves a minority in their own country and Israel as a Jewish state would be doomed.

Israel policy is to build new housings so they could absorb more immigrants. This way they will make sure they are never a minority. They are smart.

This crap never stops. I'm also fairly disgusted with Israel at the moment, basically for the operations in Gaza that happened not too long ago and the huge amounts of death that occurred on the Palestinian side vs. Israeli. 13 deaths from Israel and 1300 for Gaza. Something like that. And 8 of the 13 were combat soldiers from Israel.


No wonder their airliners have to be guarded by tanks on the runways. These settlements are just a slap in the face after these people just buried their children.

You know, this sort of reminds me of Nazi Germany. I mean, didn't the Nazi's kill millions of Jews all throughout Germany and Eastern Europe then take their homes and possessions and just moved right in like the place was a furnished apartment ready to move in?

-or-

They made the jews move into ghettos while the non-jews lived in their houses. History repeats itself again. While not on the grand scale as the Nazi's, it's just too eerily similar.

Also, I have this question, what, if anything, strategically does Israel really mean to the rest of the world anymore? We are friends with everyone around them practically except Iran. We actually have much more to gain from Iran than Israel. Israel acts like a petulant child of the western world who wants a constant handout even when she's bad. It's like the Veruca Salt of states IMHO.


UAL

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12): I am disgusted with Israel and I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't time for the UN to actually start taking military action against Israel to force them to stop this nonsense).

Why should Israel listen to the UN? The UN has never done anything for the benefit of Israelis (okay, I'll give you 1948). Honestly, Israel should pull out of the UN. They are the only country guaranteed of never holding a seat on the security council, and no matter what Israel does, they are wrong. Israel could be attacked with a nuclear bomb. They retaliate in kind, and they are the bad guys Also, the UN has no legal standing. They are a non governmental organization, so they cannot do anything to Israel. Maybe you'll suggest imposing sanctions. Yeeeeeeah...that'll work.....Israel and the US do a lot of business, and just like is the case with Israel, the UN couldn't do squat to anyone violating sanctions.

Marc

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 20): Why should Israel listen to the UN? The UN has never done anything for the benefit of Israelis (okay, I'll give you 1948). Honestly, Israel should pull out of the UN. They are the only country guaranteed of never holding a seat on the security council, and no matter what Israel does, they are wrong. Israel could be attacked with a nuclear bomb. They retaliate in kind, and they are the bad guys Also, the UN has no legal standing. They are a non governmental organization, so they cannot do anything to Israel. Maybe you'll suggest imposing sanctions. Yeeeeeeah...that'll work.....Israel and the US do a lot of business, and just like is the case with Israel, the UN couldn't do squat to anyone violating sanctions.

With this logic, then why will Iran stop it's nuclear programs, why did Syria pull out of Lebanon, why did the UN recognize Israel? You need to live in this big world. If Israel withdraw from the UN she will be very isolated from the rest of the world. Politics is not a kids game. Good enough? If and i say if ever there were sanctions against Israel the USA should and i repeat should abide with those sanctions.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 18): Israel policy is to build new housings so they could absorb more immigrants. This way they will make sure they are never a minority. They are smart.

I'm not sure what the net immigrant rate is into Israel these days. I would think that all the Jews who want to live in Israel are probably already there. As tensions mount in that part of the world, Israel will look less and less attractive as a place to immigrate to. Furthermore, there seems to be a lot of Israelis who have left Israel to live elsewhere. We have quite a few in Los Angeles. So I am doubtful that net Jewish immigration would be able to change the current demographic trends in the area.

Perhaps someone else out there could shed some light on this question.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 20): Israel should pull out of the UN. They are the only country guaranteed of never holding a seat on the security council, and no matter what Israel does, they are wrong. Israel could be attacked with a nuclear bomb. They retaliate in kind, and they are the bad guys Also, the UN has no legal standing. They are a non governmental

You are exactly right. Israel will ALWAYS be held to a different standard than any other country in the world JUST because she is Jewish.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 15): Although the world had no problem displacing 10s of 1000s Palestinains for the new Israelis in the 1940s

The British offered the Palestinians a better piece of land than the Jews got, but the Palestinians refused it because the rest of the Arab world convinced them that they "would push all the Jews into the sea" and all the land would be available for the Arabs.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 19): You know, this sort of reminds me of Nazi

There is absolutely NO comparison that even comes close.

Anti-semitism is not a joke. Only anti-semites would try to make a joke out of it. Some of the last posts on this thread wreak of anti-semitism. When hatred of Jewish people shadows the ability to be objective in a political discussion than clearly there is a problem.
And, news flash, self-hating Jews can also be anti-semites.
Remember that if you hate ------there is someone else who hates you for much the same reasons.

I am idealistic enough to hope that peaceful solutions will be found so that all involved can co-exist.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 23): There is absolutely NO comparison that even comes close.

I wasn't joking. I'm not anti-semitic either. But, it is eerily similar to me at least of what the Nazi's did to the Jews. I do not hate Jews or Muslims, I have many Jewish friends and I know the Holocaust is not a joke and it's very sad indeed. But the hatred has to stop and you'd think the Israelis, being direct objects of hatred not too long ago would have strayed from that path in all forms of life, including politics and war.

UAL

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 24): I wasn't joking. I'm not anti-semitic either. But, it is eerily similar to me at least of what the Nazi's did to the Jews. I do not hate Jews or Muslims, I have many Jewish friends and I know the Holocaust is not a joke and it's very sad indeed. But the hatred has to stop and you'd think the Israelis, being direct objects of hatred not too long ago would have strayed from that path in all forms of life, including politics and war.

  

I would call that the post of the day....... and I agree with you

Cheerios,

Quoting Cairo (Reply 15): I am first and foremost against my taxes (American) going to Israel

How about your taxes going to any country? Hillary Promised the Palestinians $900 million yesterday. At this point and time we need to stop all outflow of our tax dollars

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 19): These settlements are just a slap in the face after these people just buried their children.

Well actually these settlements are in the West bank while the burials where in Gaza. SO not quite these people. And if "these" people did not keep firing rockets then they would all still be alive right now.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 19): You know, this sort of reminds me of Nazi Germany.

Yes the way the Arabs states have been trying to destroy the Jews since 48 does kind of remind us of how the Nazis did it to the Jewish people back then.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 19): They made the jews move into ghettos while the non-jews lived in their houses

And the Arab states put the refugees into these camps while they continued with their attempt to destroy Israel. Has not worked out to well so far.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 20): Why should Israel listen to the UN?

Agree. What have they ever doen for them?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 23): The British offered the Palestinians a better piece of land than the Jews got, but the Palestinians refused it because the rest of the Arab world convinced them that they "would push all the Jews into the sea" and all the land would be available for the Arabs.

But they did attack and they should live with the results of the al nakhba. Had there been no Arab intervention Armies, no war, no invasion by Arab armies whose intent was avowedly genocidal, not only would there have been no Arab refugees, but there would have been a state of Palestine on the West Bank and Gaza since 1948.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 26): What have they ever doen for them?

you for real or what?

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 24): But the hatred has to stop

I agree. However, in this instance,what you don't seem to get , is that this is not about hatred. It is about national defense. Most Israeli's want peace with their neighbors. Most Israeli's don't "hate" period. The Palestinian people ELECTED Hamas------a terrorist organization (that DOES hate and openly wants the destruction of Israel) with ties directly to Iran to represent them. Hamas has then proceeded to lob thousands and thousands of rockets into Israel. No country in the world is going to stand by and accept that without retaliation. The difference is if Israel defends herself she is held to a double-standard JUST because she is Jewish. If she were Christian or Islamic no one would complain.
It made perfect sense to me that Israel would try to get rid of the defense threat within the Palestinian community----namely Hamas. That the Palestinian people CHOSE to have Hamas represent them is unfortunate indeed. And BTW, if you want to hear a heated discussion just ask an Israeli Arab what he or she thinks about those rockets from Hamas landing on or near their homes or businesses.

IMO Israel has every right to defend herself.
I just hope that a peaceful solution will be found so that the Palestinian people can co-exist with the rest of their neighbors without terrorist intervention. After all, it was because of terrorists that the (late) King of Jordan threw them out!

I would like to see Jordan allow them to move to the West Bank and I would like to see Israel support that plan. The settlements will have to go or co-exist.
I just don't see any other way out of it. Netenyahu is just going to have to make concessions, and like her or not Livni has some good ideas.

I'll just leave it with the fact that we both have differing opinions about what Israel stands for, etc. Been around here too long to get too deep into this...

UAL

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 26): Well actually these settlements are in the West bank while the burials where in Gaza. SO not quite these people. And if "these" people did not keep firing rockets then they would all still be alive right now.

The west bank is Palestinian land.The people in Gaza are also Palestinians, so they are the same people.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 26): Yes the way the Arabs states have been trying to destroy the Jews since 48 does kind of remind us of how the Nazis did it to the Jewish people back then.

Because the Jews did suffer under the Nazi regime Israel should know better than to treat Palestinians as did the Third Reich to the Jews.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 26): And the Arab states put the refugees into these camps while they continued with their attempt to destroy Israel. Has not worked out to well so far.

But why? They already have homes, lands, jobs in Palestine they should get them back. Please enlighten me about what law or religion will allow the stealing other people land and homes and to be kicked out of the country.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 26): Agree. What have they ever doen for them?

If Israel decides to leave the UN then bye bye,au revoir, see you later.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 26): How about your taxes going to any country? Hillary Promised the Palestinians $900 million yesterday. At this point and time we need to stop all outflow of our tax dollars

Unfortunately the politicians think of such amounts as trivial - 900 million is merely a rounding error in the new government spending orgy. Hillary probably has authority on her own to offer this anytime she feels like it to anyone.

It's very hard to understand why so much money is spent overseas, including in 2 wars, when you could use the money to train workers at home, build schools or roads, take better care of veterans, etc...

Cairo

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 23): You are exactly right. Israel will ALWAYS be held to a different standard than any other country in the world JUST because she is Jewish.

I totally disagree.

But even if you were right, then you could reverse your proposition and say that Israel would always hold other countries to a different standard than said other countries would hold one another to, because they are not Jewish.

And where does that lead us? Nowhere. Actually, it leads us to the where we are now, which is not exactly an enviable position if you are Jewish or Palestinian.

Trying to smear other countries with "anti-Semitic" rubbish is just that - baseless smearing that solves no issues.

As QF077 writes, but alas the answer is yes that seems to be real, and this thread was doing so nicely with many constructive posts.

IE it might be better if instead of phrasing it as all land available for the Palestinians you noted that they wished to keep the land that had been theirs for generations. I am sure the same held in their minds for land that had been in the possession of Jewish families. It was the push of immigrants taking their land to which they did and still do object.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 28): The Palestinian people ELECTED Hamas------a terrorist organization (that DOES hate and openly wants the destruction of Israel) with ties directly to Iran to represent them. Hamas has then proceeded to lob thousands and thousands of rockets into Israel.

The onlydifference is that while HAMAS, which refuses to recognise Israel, rules the Gazastrip and has it's support there, the West Bank is being ruled by the Fatah movement, which is secularand has been in peace deals with Israel.

Jan

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 23): Israel will ALWAYS be held to a different standard than any other country in the world JUST because she is Jewish.

That's just mental masturbation which allows you to believe your enemies hate you for who you are instead of what you do. It's comforting to believe your enemies are bigots, isn't it?

No one outside of the ME gives a crap whether Israel is Jewish or not, it is the circumstances surrounding its formation out of Palestine in 1947 and its continued behavior in the world that people question.....Buddhists would be equally targeted for the suspicion if, because of a European holocaust against them, they were planted in the middle of Palestine against the will of the Palestinians or the rest of the region.

Cairo

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12): All of the above are anti-semitic

I take exception to being called anti-semitic. I did not make my reply favoring either side. I just wonder about the timing of this latest project. The terroists lob rockets to kill, kill them for it. I understand self defense. I just do not think these kind of projects serve the cause of peace. Peace is supposed to be the sought after prize, is it not?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_...gent_Refugee_Migration_Needs_Gaza/

Well this may open up some territory for more settlement. Interesting , I wonder how many Palastinians are going to migrate to the US ? Within 7 days of taking office President Obama signed this...interesting.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 36): Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12): All of the above are anti-semitic I take exception to being called anti-semitic. I did not make my reply favoring either side. I just wonder about the timing of this latest project. The terroists lob rockets to kill, kill them for it. I understand self defense. I just do not think these kind of projects serve the cause of peace. Peace is supposed to be the sought after prize, is it not?

Whoa there. Did you not read the full post of DocL? For a start DocL has a track record of not accusing anyone of being anti-semitic and second his post included:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12): (And no, this post isn't serious. However, the following is: I am disgusted with Israel and I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't time for the UN to actually start taking military action against Israel to force them to stop this nonsense).

Maybe your post is also being ironic WarRI1, but just in case, consider the full text from DocL. 

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 26): What have they ever doen for them?

You mean besides actually creating their country?

  

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 20): Why should Israel listen to the UN?

1) Because it is a member of the UN.
2) For all intents and purposes, Israel does not listen to the UN anyway.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 20): okay, I'll give you 1948

So generous of you, your elegant gratefulness is duly noted.   

I apologize if this is off topic, but maybe we can inject some historical perspective and lay the blame for this current situation where it belongs, not with the arabs, but with the zionists.
The zionists started the fight. It was an unfair fight to begin with because compared to the zionists, the arabs didn't have the money or political influence to keep their land.

It was the zionists who came into palestine after the turn of the 20th century with their belief that palestine was promised to the jews by God through Abraham and began convincing the jews living in palestine that the arabs had no right or claim to the land. Before the zionists came in, jews and arabs had been living peaceably together on the land for hundreds of years. Then WWI happened, the ottoman empire, which controlled palestine, happened to be on the wrong side of the war, palestine was then taken over by the british. Then WW2 happened along with the holocaust that saw the extermination of not only 6 million jews but 6 million others: gays, priests, gypsies, political dissidents, even catholics. Basically, anyone who didn't fit Hitler and his regime's notion of the perfect person was shipped off to a camp to be exterminated, But you see the zionists don't want people to think about the other 6 million, only the 6 million of their people who were lost.

Following the war, the zionists began pressuring the victorious allies to make them whole, they played upon the guilt of the british that they were unable to do anything to stop the extermination of those 6 million jews. At first, the british offered them Uganda, but the zionists held fast to their belief that palestine had been promised to them by god, they insisted it must be palestine, and let's remember, that the zionists wanted not only palestine as we know it, but also wanted lebanon, jordan, and part of Turkey. They wanted biblical palestine. The british were willing to give them what we know as palestine and they accepted that.

The problem of course was that there were tens of thousands of arabs living in palestine who were given no voice in the matter. The west absurdly expected the arabs to just go along with the zionist world view that the arabs were nothing more than squatters on land promised them, the jews, by God himself. Of course it probably didn't hurt that many wealthy and influential jews in America and Britain subscribed to the zionist view and provided money to the zionist cause. The arabs living in palestine had no such wealth or influence and thus no such voice.

Because in the zionist view the arabs had no claim to the land, those arabs became second class citizens compared to their jewish neighbors. Furthermore, whomever's fault it was that the palestinians left the land, the zionists didn't respect arab ownership of the land, and thus summarily confiscated it once those arabs had vacated, then opened palestine to any jew anywhere in the world who wanted to move there. Tens of thousands of jews began emmigrating to palestine to take up land that the zionists told them was rightfully theirs. It was not theirs to begin with if we take the basic view that ownership is 9/10ths of the law and promises from God made 2000 years earlier don't hold water.

Of course, Egypt, Jordan, syria and lebanon didn't want the palestinians either, they simply wanted a return to the status quo. They wanted the palestinians to stay in palestine and continue to be palestinians and thus mobilized against the zionists and their fledgling state, which was heavily backed financially by wealthy jews in the US and Europe who used their money and influence to convince the US and Europe to accept that their world view, as espoused by the zionists, was the only valid one, that palestine, per a promise from God, belongs only to the jews, that the arabs are nothing more than squatters and that any attempt on the Arabs part to regain that land was a direct violation of a promise from God himself and thus must be stopped at all costs. As long as the zionists were willing to fight the fight, their allies in the US and Britain put up the money and weapons to ensure that they'd be successful. The russians backed the arabs and the rest was history.

All the arabs have ever wanted is simply a return to the status quo, a return of palestine to the palestinians, and now that the jews have turned that land into a modern, advanced, wealthy country built upon hard work and in the beginning, a promise from God to Abraham, the question becomes more complicated, because we, as westerners, can hardly dishonor all the hard work put in by the jews to turn palestine cum israel into a viable country by throwing them out and inviting the palestinians back in to take over infrastructure built by the jews, that's hardly fair and it's against our very capitalist nature to do such.

Thus, i fear, that short of someone inventing a time machine, then going back in history and convincing the british and Americans to tell the zionists and their wealthy, influential backers to go pound sand on the subject of palestine and its ownership, the real question of who owns palestine shall never be resolved.

I respect that the Israelis are willing to bend over backwards to try and accomodate the palestinians, but the one thing the palestinians and their arab backers want is the one thing Israel will never be able to give them, their land back. The very act of doing such would negate sixty plus years of hard work on the part of the jews to turn palestine into a viable entity.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 40): I respect that the Israelis are willing to bend over backwards to try and accomodate the palestinians

So far do not see such a move from Israel.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 40): but the one thing the palestinians and their arab backers want is the one thing Israel will never be able to give them, their land back. The very act of doing such would negate sixty plus years of hard work on the part of the jews to turn palestine into a viable entity.

Yes i can see your point, but is the answer here is to take more land? That will make the problem more complicated.

BTW a very nice summery.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 41): Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 40): but the one thing the palestinians and their arab backers want is the one thing Israel will never be able to give them, their land back. The very act of doing such would negate sixty plus years of hard work on the part of the jews to turn palestine into a viable entity. Yes i can see your point, but is the answer here is to take more land? That will make the problem more complicated. BTW a very nice summery.

Agreed, it is a nice summary but towards the end starts to miss a major factor. The "hard work" is certainly there, but a lot of it is being subvented by water that in the long run is likely to belong to Syria and Jordan. Additionally, the state of the coastal aquifer is not good. Salinity is increasing and deliverability of water is decreasing. With respect to water, Israel's level of development is not stable.

Some seem amazed by Israeli agriculture - it depends on water. The funny thing is that irrigation in Europe is due in large part to the Arabs.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...esult&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA147,M1

Ironically the rise of irrigation in Palestine during the mandate was associated with loss of Arab land to Jews.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 41): Yes i can see your point, but is the answer here is to take more land? That will make the problem more complicated.

I agree with you, the answer is not for Israel to take more land. i was merely putting the problem in a historical perspective. there are so many people out there who feel that the current situation is entirely the fault of the arabs and that israel can do no wrong. I was merely reminding people that historically, it was the zionists who were the troublemakers, not the arabs. the arabs were sort of caught between the british who felt they had to do something to atone for not stopping the holocaust, and the zionists who demanded palestine as a kind of "reparations payment" without regard to the wants, needs, or rights of the people who actually lived on that land.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 41): So far do not see such a move from Israel.

Bending over backwards might have been too strong phraseology, but I think the israelis have tried, over the years, to make the palestinians happy. The problem is that what the palestinians really want, their country back, the Israelis can't or won't give them. it goes back to the fallacious belief on the part of the zionists that palestine was promised to them by God. If the israelis would be willing to repudiate that belief and accept that either the arabs were there first, or at least, the arabs share an equal claim to the land, it would be a very good start to a lasting peace. it would be a simple gesture from the israelis to recognize that the arabs in palestine are and have always been equals.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 33): It was the push of immigrants taking their land to which they did and still do object.

Kind of like the aboriginal people of many different countries felt as immigrants escaping oppression from different parts of the world arrived on their native territory. Like the Pilgrims escaping the religious persecution who traveled to America or the British prisioners who were imported to Australia.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 35): It's comforting to believe your enemies are bigots,

Clearly you are just what I have described in a previous post, and you clearly consider me your enemy----so I won't waste my time trying to have a dialouge with you.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 40): It was an unfair fight to begin with because compared to the zionists, the arabs didn't have the money or political influence to keep their land.

I appreciate your attempt to try to get the bigots to stick to the facts, but when you make a statement as historically innacurate as this it seems to invalidate all you are trying to do.
If you REALLY knew the history of the Jews you would know they were the poorest of the poor.
It is only in modern times that some of them have been able to gain some wealth and power-----and so what? They haven't done anything different with their money and power than anyone else has done----its just if they are Jewish THEN there is a problem. When it comes to colonialism the Zionists certainly did not write the book.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 43): The problem is that what the palestinians really want, their country back, the Israelis can't or won't give them.

Just like a lot of the aboriginal people of the world would like their countries back also, but as you have already stated it ain't gonna happen.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 43): the fallacious belief on the part of the zionists that palestine was promised to them by God

If you were not there in person to hear the discussion God had with Moses than you are ASSUMING and SPECULATING it to be a false agreement. Nonetheless, that is what the Bible says. People who don't believe in the Bible are always going to deny the contents of it. O.K. thats your business, and you are not alone----there are a lot of people on this website who don't believe------and thats their business. But not everybody feels that way.

One thing about politics-----no one is EVER going to change anyone's mind about it once they make up their minds. So all that is left is opinion, discussion and debate.
Israel is not perfect----NO Government is.

What I find so tawdry is the level of preconcieved bigotry whenever there is a discussion involving the Jewish people. I understand that those who feel the way believe in their reasons. But it certainly seems to be a hipocracy on the part of those who feel such empathy for the Palestinian people. If you hate one people and love the other then it certainly does take away from your ability to be objective in a discussion.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 40): tell the zionists and their wealthy, influential backers

Are you suggesting that the small percentage of Jews who have significant amounts of money in the world today are a larger and more powerful group that the petro-dollar funded Arab nations? I would be interested in seeing those numbers and percentages compared side by side.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 40): their land back

"Their land" has historically been the Trans-Jordan. However, keep in mind they were nomads. Can you name the Capital of "their land" or a currency?
And why is it you do not mention all the Arab fifedoms who have chased out the Palestinians over time? It was in more recent history that the King of Jordan slaughtered thousands of Palestinians and chased them out, yet you do not make a mention of that at all. Rather selective don't you think?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44): Can you name the Capital of "their land" or a currency?

Well i will gamble and answer Jerusalem.
As for currency the following is what i found. But please notice that the coins were written in Arabic, English and Hebrew. So we know at least that back in 1927 Jews and Arabs lived side by side with no problems, yet.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44): Clearly you are just what I have described in a previous post, and you clearly consider me your enemy----so I won't waste my time trying to have a dialouge with you

This great attitude is what keeps Israel in a perpetual state of war and the world's biggest terrorist target - 60 years and counting...

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44): no one is EVER going to change anyone's mind about it once they make up their minds.

It seems you make the common error of assigning your own thought processes to others - quite a few of us change our minds all the time about the Israel/Palestinian issue and many other problems we face.

I for one was solidly pro-Israeli until I came to live in the Middle East for work and discovered there is a whole other side to this story virtually unknown and undiscussed in America. My mind changed and I now feel America should just leave them alone to sort it out for themselves with no money to anyone.

Cairo

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 43): The problem is that what the palestinians really want, their country back, the Israelis can't or won't give them. it goes back to the fallacious belief on the part of the zionists that palestine was promised to them by God.

I don't think there's any question of 'can't,' Northstarboy. But they certainly 'won't.' Apart from anything else, the people living in the areas that used to belong to Arabs didn't just walk in - the Israeli Government grabbed it and then sold it to the settlers. The amount of compensation payable if all of the illegally-occupied land was returned to its rightful owners would be simply enormous.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 43): If the israelis would be willing to repudiate that belief and accept that either the arabs were there first, or at least, the arabs share an equal claim to the land, it would be a very good start to a lasting peace. it would be a simple gesture from the israelis to recognize that the arabs in palestine are and have always been equals.

Again, I'm afraid, impossible in practical terms. The dealing in 1948 was purely political - no-one took into account the geographical and economic impossibility of what was being proposed.

At that time the area was inhabited, on a 'round-figure' basis, by about 800,000 Palestinians and 300,000 Jews. Due to the absurd policy of 'Aliyah' - the right given to everyone of Jewish descent to immigrate and claim citizenship at any time - the population now consists of (round figures again) about 5 million Jews, 1 million Israeli Arabs, and 5 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. In addition, there are about 3.5 million people living in refugee camps in surrounding countries who are still classified by the UN as refugees and their descendants who can claim a right of return. Who are currently being finacially supported by the U

The area was always short of water and arable land. It is now utterly incapable of supporting its present population - and certainly incapable of absorbing any more people, whether more Jewish immigrants or displaced Palestinians returning.

At the moment 'the gap is filled' in three ways. Firstly, through its illegal occupation of the Shebaa Farms and the Golan Heights, and the west bank of the Jordan, Israel is able to hold on a lot of water and arable land that rightfully belongs to Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon. Secondly, it is able to allocate a high proportion of that water to Israelis, at the expense of the Palestinian townships in the occupied West Bank and Gaza. Thirdly, it just uses more water than the region produces, year by year.

Due to excessive diversion of water from the Jordan for irrigation, the Galilee and the Dead Sea are rapidly 'drying out.' As Baroque says:-

Quoting Baroque (Reply 42): The "hard work" is certainly there, but a lot of it is being subvented by water that in the long run is likely to belong to Syria and Jordan. Additionally, the state of the coastal aquifer is not good. Salinity is increasing and deliverability of water is decreasing. With respect to water, Israel's level of development is not stable.

One should add that Israel simply cannot afford to return the Golan Heights to Syria, or the Shebaa Farms to Lebanon; nor can it afford to relax its vice-like grip on the west bank of the Jordan. It can't do without the water.

In the end, there is no practical solution to that problem, except government policies (like high land taxes, water charges, and other charges aimed at passing on tot the population the true cost of living in Israel. Aimed, of course, at encouraging massive outward migration. Plus severe restrictions on further inward migration.

The area cannot possibly continue to support its present out-sized population for much longer. Especially if the United States chooses to reduce the subsidies and loan guarantees that it currently lavishes on the Israeli Government.

In addition to all their other pioneering work on irrigation, I now learn that the Arabs must surely have been the first nomadic society to employ irrigation. Amazing what you learn on a.net.

Hey guys! Here's the first tangible sign that the new US government intends to bring the Israelis 'to heel.'

"U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Wednesday blasted Israel's plans to demolish Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem as a violation of its international obligations and "unhelpful" to Middle East peace efforts.

"Clearly this kind of activity is unhelpful and not in keeping with the obligations entered into under the 'road map'," Clinton said, referring to the long-stalled peace plan.

"It is an issue that we intend to raise with the government of Israel and the government at the municipal level in Jerusalem," she added at a joint news conference with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

"Clinton said she planned to take up the issue with the incoming Israeli government, which is expected to take office in the coming weeks.

"Israel has in recent days issued orders for the demolition of 80 Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem it says were built illegally.

"But Palestinians say they cannot receive proper building permits from Israeli authorities, and the planned demolitions are means to assert Israel's control over the disputed city."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1068546.html

Fasten your seatbelts.........