Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

n229nw · Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:18 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 88):
Quoting N229nw (Reply 82):
womens' rights

Trust me they are stronger in Saudi than anywhere else.

I'm sorry but that statement is about as far from the truth as possible. I think Saudi comes in the bottom three of any table of womens' rights collected based on various criteria. For example, I believe Saudi is now the very last country in the whole world where women still do not have the right to vote. Furthermore, women cannot drive, and are discriminated against in terms of property, work, etc. etc. And that is just the legal level--it doesn't even touch the practical things going on. As a Saudi woman your protection against rape, sexual abuse and domestic violence is zero too. The high profile case in which a woman was sentenced to lashing and jail for being gang-raped is just the tip of the iceberg.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 94):
It's possible some Saudi women disagree with that statement

Understatement. I know a few Saudi women, and unless you have a very tolerant family and do certain things behind closed doors, you are screwed as a woman in Saudi.

Meanwhile, back on the topic of Israel: it now looks as if a new type of Palestinian unity govewrnment may emerge in the wake of Salam Fayyad's recent resignation. This may turn out to be a positive development in terms of bringing everyone to the negotiating table...

Let's see what happens next.

Aaron747 · Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:49 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 98):
he tries to make a hit on me or touch me the wrong way i think i will refuse that very strongly,puting it nicely.

You simply don't understand sexuality if you're worried about such things...unless you're giving signals otherwise, that scenario is not going to happen.

Dougloid · Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:00 am

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
israel plans 73,300 new housing units in the West Bank...

Hmmmmmmm....time for some elementary fact checking, Mort.

You could at least say "there's a dispute over the numbers."

The Peace Now report is not exactly the last word.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1068618.html

NAV20 · Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:26 am

Looks as if Obama is prepared to stop funding settlements, anyway.

"The Americans will demand that Israel avoid creating new facts on the ground that may burden achieving an agreement in the future. Toward this end, the U.S. administration is preparing to put heavy pressure on the new government to freeze all settlement construction and keep its promises to lift roadblocks. A freeze on settlement activity will be a higher priority than removing illegal outposts.

"Measures the Obama administration is likely will be to cut the equivalent sum of the latest investments in settlements from the remaining budget for U.S. guaranteed loans, approximately $1.3 billion out of a total of $10 billion that the U.S. made available to Israel for it to absorb immigrants from the former Soviet Union."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1064162.html

WunalaYann · Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:39 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 79):
What do you know about the Saudi regime to call them backward and fascist? At least we do not attack other people, bomb schools and hospitals. Yes there is no comparison there.

I know what I read in newspapers (probably not the wisest statement but one has to start somewhere) and there are these wonderful things called Wikipedia, discussion forums and, yes, talking to people who have been there, are from there, have been discriminated there, etc.

As for not attacking people, let me know when I can build a church in Saudi Arabia without facing the wrath of Islamic tribunals. And of course there is September 11th, as a few posters have mentioned to you, carried out by 15 Saudis out of 18 terrorists. Pretty good ratio. Smile

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 88):
Trust me they are stronger in Saudi than anywhere else.

Proof? Evidence? Criteria? Facts? Metrics?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 80):
You hate Israel ... that's your right. We also disagree about free markets and politics .. why should we agree about Israel.

But hey you taught me stuf about Rugby bro , so its all good. Peace.

No, it is not "all good" at all, actually. Quite the opposite.

Seeing as I got bashed growing up in France for standing up for Israel, its right to exist peacefully, and the fact that it has been the target of undiscriminated savagery for more than 60 years, your statement is a slap in the face.

Short of you offering a public apology for your insult, you can refrain from calling me "bro" in the future.

NorthstarBoy · Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:36 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 88):
Trust me they are stronger in Saudi than anywhere else.

I suppose that depends on the definition of "anywhere else."

In Saudi Arabia, a woman can't get a driver's license, unless she happens to be the king's dentist, and the king wants housecalls, so he gives her a special dispensation, and a woman can't be out in public with a man who isn't her brother, father, uncle, cousin, etc, without risking arrest. Then again, this is a country where it's perfectly legal for a man to say "I divorce you" three times to his wife and throw her out in the street, but if she wants a divorce, he's perfectly within his rights to kill her.

I'd hardly call the saudis strong when it comes to women's rights.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 96):
Well i did not say all women are happy. BTW when are women ever happy?

I know quite a few well educated, independent women who are quite happy. I'll bet alot of women in Afghanistan were happy before the Taliban and their band of thugs came in and began demanding they return to the stone age culturally, i'd even venture a guess that they were wishing the russians would come back, at least under russian rule their rights would have been protected.

Enough bashing Saudi Arabia though.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 103):
"Measures the Obama administration is likely will be to cut the equivalent sum of the latest investments in settlements from the remaining budget for U.S. guaranteed loans, approximately $1.3 billion out of a total of $10 billion that the U.S. made available to Israel for it to absorb immigrants from the former Soviet Union."

I can't help but wonder, when did Israel's inability to absorb immigrants from the soviet union become the problem of the US? Nevermind Aliyah, if Israel can't absorb them without support from the US or anyone else, it seems only logical that they be turned away, but then again, that gets back to repudiating the zionist belief that every jew has a right to live in Israel, which will never happen.

Doona · Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:58 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 70):
No , but they are one in the same in many cases.

No. Terrorists are terrorists, and protesters are protesters. If one chooses to protest through acts of terror, one is a terrorist, and not simply a protester.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 85):
Illegally occupied .... or won militarily ?

Here, they are one and the same. "Winning" something through war does not constitute annexation. The world is basically made up of a status quo, with each nation obligated to keep within their own borders. Land-grabbing is not permitted. And let's not forget, under a previous administration, Israel decided to end the settlements.

And hell, if indeed these settlements are supposed to facilitate a higher rate of emigration to Israel, as mentioned in an above post, how is it different than the Nazi idea of Lebensraum?

Cheers
Mats

Dougloid · Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:39 pm

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 104):

As for not attacking people, let me know when I can build a church in Saudi Arabia without facing the wrath of Islamic tribunals. And of course there is September 11th, as a few posters have mentioned to you, carried out by 15 Saudis out of 18 terrorists. Pretty good ratio.

One of my colleagues at McDonnell Douglas worked as a tech rep for Northrop stationed in Saudi Arabia in the eighties.

This is the story he told.

One day, a Land Rover pulls up in the parking lot next to his hotel. Four Saudi cops and a big black guy (he was a slave, you see) get out and they pull out a guy who is bound hand and foot. They make him kneel and the black guy-who's also the headsman-raises this rather large sword over his head and decapitates the kneeling man. They toss the body and the detached head in the Land Rover and off they go, leaving the horrified hotel staff to hose down the parking lot.

That is filed under the 'administration of justice' folder.

Read about Mr. Beshi.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2966790.stm

Aaron747 · Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:24 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 107):
That is filed under the 'administration of justice' folder.

Read about Mr. Beshi.

Forgive me for poor taste, but I went straight to the bookmarks folder and pulled out this one, because it was among the first things that came to mind after reading Mr. Beshi's interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov4GVZJ8H-I

AGM100 · Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:06 pm

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 104):
Short of you offering a public apology for your insult, you can refrain from calling me "bro" in the future.

Insult for not agreeing with you ? Israel can never do enough to appease the Muslims ... you know it and I know it. No need to hide behind legalisms ... Muslims want Israel gone ... the sooner we all confess and move along the sooner it can be dealt with. Don't act like you just sort of dislike Israel ... like some sort of step sister. Please ... the only reason Israel exists is because the Muslims have not been able to ethnically cleanse , kill and beat them from the land. It is hatred .. so we call it what it is.

Quoting Doona (Reply 106):
No. Terrorists are terrorists, and protesters are protesters. If one chooses to protest through acts of terror, one is a terrorist, and not simply a protester.

If they all aim towards the same goals .... I am clear about there positions. No need for nuance there . Throngs of Muslims burning flags and screaming bloody murder in the streets are the same as terrorists blowing up bombs and fireing rockets over the borders.

Doona · Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:29 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 109):
Throngs of Muslims burning flags and screaming bloody murder in the streets are the same as terrorists blowing up bombs and fireing rockets over the borders.

Just so we're clear, burning a flag and yelling is the same as blowing up a bus of innocent civilians?

Cheers
Mats

AGM100 · Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:04 pm

Quoting Doona (Reply 110):
Just so we're clear, burning a flag and yelling is the same as blowing up a bus of innocent civilians?

Of course it is not parallel in scale , but both are directed toward the same end game.

I will of course change my point of view ,.. when I see Muslims screaming about some terrorist blowing up other Muslim children in Iraq , Afghanistan , Pakistan .... They are quick to jump and burn when innocent civs are killed in battle by NATO ... but seem to wither away when a Iraqi police station is bombed and innocents are slaughtered ( on purpose I might add ) .

This repeats itself everywhere by Muslims ... Why are we not to believe that the vast majority are aligned in ideals ?

Doona · Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:00 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 111):
Of course it is not parallel in scale , but both are directed toward the same end game.

What "same end" would that be, exactly?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 111):
They are quick to jump and burn when innocent civs are killed in battle by NATO

And why do you think that is? It's always easier to protest a political reality, rather than a criminal terrorist organization. Demonstrations and protests in the West are usually aimed at the government, companies, etc, not organized crime or terrorists (though it does happen). It might just be that people feel more able to influence rational visible entities, rather than the nut-jobs that blew up their police station.

Cheers
Mats

SOBHI51 · Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:37 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 109):
Israel can never do enough to appease the Muslims

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 109):
Muslims want Israel gone

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 109):
the only reason Israel exists is because the Muslims have not been able to ethnically cleanse ,

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 109):
Throngs of Muslims

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 111):
when I see Muslims screaming

Is this some kind of Islam phobic? Again the Israel Arab conflict is about land, homes, jobs and future. Arabs (including Christians) and Jews lived together for a long time peacefully, till Israel came to the scene and land graping started. So it is not a religious war but a war for the right to return to your homeland as seen from both sides.

SOBHI51 · Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:51 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 107):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2966790.stm

Under the Gulf kingdom's strict Islamic Sharia laws, the death penalty can be imposed for murder, rape, apostasy, armed robbery, drug trafficking and repeated drug use.

At least four of the above crimes it will be OK with me to impose the death penalty. Why should your life be spared after killing, destroying the life, creating a drug dependent future generation, and when you commit armed robbery it means that you are ready to kill? Or why should the tax payers pay for your stay long term in a prison?

WunalaYann · Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:25 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 109):
Insult for not agreeing with you ?

Calling me an Israel hater is not a "disagreement". It is an insult. If you cannot tell the difference between disagreeing and insulting, you probably have no business posting on internet forums.

Dougloid · Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:52 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 114):
Under the Gulf kingdom's strict Islamic Sharia laws, the death penalty can be imposed for murder, rape, apostasy, armed robbery, drug trafficking and repeated drug use.

At least four of the above crimes it will be OK with me to impose the death penalty. Why should your life be spared after killing, destroying the life, creating a drug dependent future generation, and when you commit armed robbery it means that you are ready to kill? Or why should the tax payers pay for your stay long term in a prison?

Can you tell me about the public executions like the one I described and say with a straight face a) that it's done any good and b) why it's a civilized practice, when most of the world disagrees with you-including my home state?

SOBHI51 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:06 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 116):
Can you tell me about the public executions like the one I described and say with a straight face a) that it's done any good and b) why it's a civilized practice, when most of the world disagrees with you-including my home state?

A) Yes it does do good as crime rate is very low in KSA. Why should a rapist, a murderer or drug trafficker be kept alive? Why should my taxes pay for his stay in prison? The laws are very clear so don't do the crime or you will pay the price. In my very best straight face i respond yes the punishment fits the crime.
I have a 14 year old daughter if she god forbid gets raped i will be more than happy to carry the sentence myself.

B) Executions are still going on in the USA, i do not see any critics here calling that uncivilized. Also when you mention your home state can you please name it.

NAV20 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:30 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 111):
This repeats itself everywhere by Muslims ... Why are we not to believe that the vast majority are aligned in ideals ?

Not only does that reveal extreme religious prejudice on your part, AGM100 - it's a mile off the point.

Unless you're suggesting that Jews are entitled to steal other peoples' land simply because they're Muslims?

Also, I don't know where this leaves Christians who live in the West Bank, or who used to live in the Shebaa Farms or the Golan Heights? Are Jews entitled to their land too?

WunalaYann · Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:55 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 117):
B) Executions are still going on in the USA, i do not see any critics here calling that uncivilized. Also when you mention your home state can you please name it.

I fundamentally oppose death penalty and consider it absolutely uncivilised. There you go. Smile

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 117):
A) Yes it does do good as crime rate is very low in KSA. Why should a rapist, a murderer or drug trafficker be kept alive? Why should my taxes pay for his stay in prison? The laws are very clear so don't do the crime or you will pay the price. In my very best straight face i respond yes the punishment fits the crime.

Unfortunately, a low crime rate, while highly valuable, is only one of many, many components of what makes a given area liveable. Below are a few examples of why Saudi Arabia, and generally Arab/Muslim countries are not exactly Gardens of Eden:

http://hdrstats.undp.org/indicators/268.html

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ntries_by_rate_of_unemployment.png

http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/10_Most_Oppressive_Regimes_List

And we are talking about the country with the world's largest proven oil reserves, so not exactly some desolate steppe in Central Asia, or genocidal war zone in sub-Sahara Africa.

dtwclipper · Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:05 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 118):
Unless you're suggesting that Jews

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 118):
Are Jews entitled to their land too?

Are you not the one who always says this is about Israelis and not Jews?

NAV20 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:24 am

I was addressing a question to AGM100, Dtwclipper. Who clearly sees the whole thing as a religious war.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 109):
Israel can never do enough to appease the Muslims ... you know it and I know it. No need to hide behind legalisms ... Muslims want Israel gone ... the sooner we all confess and move along the sooner it can be dealt with.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 109):
Throngs of Muslims burning flags and screaming bloody murder in the streets are the same as terrorists blowing up bombs and fireing rockets over the borders.

dtwclipper · Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:48 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 121):
I was addressing a question to AGM100, Dtwclipper

Then you need to clarify yourself, as you have always stated it is an Israeli issue and not Jewish one.

PIA777 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:51 am

Quoting Raffik (Reply 3):
Building this on occupied land will no doubt lead to more resentment and anger from the Palestinians. Why are the Israelis building there?? It's illegal.

Exactly!!!

PIA777

AGM100 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:55 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 113):
Is this some kind of Islam phobic?

Nope , I like em ..do business with them and don't mind it a bit. On the other hand I have not met a Muslim yet that recognizes Israel. Muslims are united in there opposition to the state of Israel. In some ways I kind of "admire" there commitment , but as a supporter of the state of Israel I also know that we are apposed.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 115):
Calling me an Israel hater is not a "disagreement". It is an insult

Yan , I did not mean it in a extremist sense of the word. It was relative to our conversation on here .. I did not intend to insult you personally.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 118):
Not only does that reveal extreme religious prejudice on your part, AGM100 - it's a mile off the point.

Well , I would definatly categorize most Muslims I have met as prejudice of there faith. As are most other followers of any religion . Since I am non religions I don't care much about peoples religion ... but Islam seems to be more than a religion ..more like a total identity.

NAV20 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:00 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 124):
Well , I would definatly categorize most Muslims I have met as prejudice of there faith.

Maybe that's an area where we can find some common ground. Every religion has its share of extremists. A few hundred years ago different sorts of Christians were killing each other in the most barbaric ways - and, judging by the recent news from Northern Ireland, maybe they're still doing it on a small scale.

Religious 'extremism' starts off as a mere matter of opinion - but if we're not careful it spills over into politics. The example of Ireland serves to underline that point; the intolerance of the two 'sorts' of Christians - Catholics and Protestants - for each other led to a deep political split between those who wanted to end Ireland's links with Britain and those who wanted to keep them. Which led to the best part of a hundred years of civil war and 'terrorism.'

So you feel that Muslims are universally 'prejudiced' against Israel; and no doubt many of them, in their turn, feel that they have been subjected to centuries of colonisation, economic exploitation, and religious intolerance - starting with the Crusades and culminating in the unjust 'annexation' of most of Palestine by the Western powers, led by the United States.

There's only one solution to that problem. To somehow keep religion out of politics. Unfortunately, Israel and many Middle-Eastern states still allow religion to remain 'front and centre,' even to the point of giving their religious leaders a big say (in many cases the final say) in most areas of politics.

That was wrong in 1515 when Henry the Eighth appointed Cardinal Wolsey as Lord Chancellor of England. And it's still wrong today. Politics and religion have never mixed happily - and, on the basis of experience up to now, they never will.

airxliban · Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:08 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 124):
On the other hand I have not met a Muslim yet that recognizes Israel.

Well, is the recognition of a country by an individual the relevant framework? You are aware that Egypt and Jordan recognise Israel, as does Turkey and probably a few other Muslim countries that I am missing.

Just so that we are all clear though - particularly because the refusal to recognise Israel is considered the 8th deadly sin by some people - which Israel are the Arab states or Hamas supposed to recognise? The Israel promised by God to the Israelites? The Israel of 1948 borders? The Israel of 1967 borders? Or the Israel that continues to build settlements onto occupied Palestinian land? Because no one can really "recognise" Israel unless we are all on the same page on this very important question. Or are we talking about Israel's right to exist? Because that is a very different thing.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 117):
A) Yes it does do good as crime rate is very low in KSA. Why should a rapist, a murderer or drug trafficker be kept alive? Why should my taxes pay for his stay in prison? The laws are very clear so don't do the crime or you will pay the price. In my very best straight face i respond yes the punishment fits the crime.
I have a 14 year old daughter if she god forbid gets raped i will be more than happy to carry the sentence myself.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 117):
B) Executions are still going on in the USA, i do not see any critics here calling that uncivilized. Also when you mention your home state can you please name it.

I think that execution has no place in a civilised society because it is an uncivilised instrument of punishment. However Saudi Arabia is not a civilised society, and I do not that mean that in an aggressive sense, I mean it in the most literal use of the word. Therefore, I don't really have a problem with executions in Saudi Arabia and I don't think that we as outsiders ought to chastise the Saudis for continuing to use it. Yes - they will continue to have a miserable human rights record, and yes all sorts of freedoms are denied to people on the basis of religion and gender. But that's how many Saudis want it, so you have to respect their rules if you want to go there.

ImperialEagle · Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:11 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 57):
why does Israel and the home land of the Jews attract such attention.

Mostly, JUST because they are Jews.

SOBHI51 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:55 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 124):
Well , I would definatly categorize most Muslims I have met as prejudice of there faith. As are most other followers of any religion . Since I am non religions I don't care much about peoples religion ... but Islam seems to be more than a religion ..more like a total identity

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 124):
Nope , I like em ..do business with them and don't mind it a bit. On the other hand I have not met a Muslim yet that recognizes Israel. Muslims are united in there opposition to the state of Israel. In some ways I kind of "admire" there commitment , but as a supporter of the state of Israel I also know that we are apposed.

Not all Muslims are bad,same thing will apply to other religion. I as a Muslim do recognize the right of Israel to exist. Same time i recognize that Palestinians need to have a homeland.
Also peace should prevail in our area.

As a Muslim i was raised in a way to work within the religion guidance. There will be judgment in other world. We might be praying a lot (5 times a day) . But i find nothing wrong to have religion as an identity and one i am proud off.

Dougloid · Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:23 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 117):

B) Executions are still going on in the USA, i do not see any critics here calling that uncivilized. Also when you mention your home state can you please name it.

I'll call it uncivilized and 25 per cent of the US has done away with the death penalty.

I live in Iowa and we have not had the death penalty since 1964.

Your country put at least 158 people to death in a public and brutal manner in 2008. Your populations is about 27 million.

We have a population of over 300 million. We executed 37 people in 2008. The trend is downward every year. At least ten other states are considering the wisdom of having a death penalty.

Quite simply, it's not a deterrent and you can't execute yourselves out of a crime wave. It doesn't work.

What's wrong with that picture?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 114):

Under the Gulf kingdom's strict Islamic Sharia laws, the death penalty can be imposed for murder, rape, apostasy, armed robbery, drug trafficking and repeated drug use.

What is apostasy? It's a religious crime. It's the renunciation of one's religion. Are you in favor of executing people who decide they don't believe in Islam any more?

You are also in favor of executing people who are drug addicts?

I hope to hell you never have to deal with addiction in your family, friend, and I mean that sincerely.

rjpieces · Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:34 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 128):
I as a Muslim do recognize the right of Israel to exist.

Wow, several Americans on these threads have been trying to get some users from your part of the world to say these words for years, and they have always refused. Kudos to you for being the first one that I can recall to say these brave words on A.net

Aaron747 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:37 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 117):
I have a 14 year old daughter if she god forbid gets raped i will be more than happy to carry the sentence myself.

I have a four month old daughter...and I can safely say I will be killing nobody were they to rape her. Not only will I get my own arse landed in prison, but my brutality won't undo the horror my daughter has already been through. What's the point? Never trust your government to have the power to determine who lives and who doesn't and for what reason - there's no perfect system. You want to punish someone? Put them in solitary for 20+ hours a day for a lifetime - going insane is no picnic.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 117):
Executions are still going on in the USA, i do not see any critics here calling that uncivilized. Also when you mention your home state can you please name it.

Where have you been since 1972? There are massive protests every time someone is about to get permanently shucked from society.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 117):
Yes it does do good as crime rate is very low in KSA.

Evidence? Just anecdotally, I'd find it far more statistically reliable that the nature and prevalence of religion in the lives of Saudis is responsible for the crime rate, extreme and uncivilized penalties notwithstanding.

SOBHI51 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:39 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 129):
I'll call it uncivilized and 25 per cent of the US has done away with the death penalty.[/quotte]
But that does still leave 75% of the states with the death penalty.
[quote=Dougloid,reply=129]Quite simply, it's not a deterrent and you can't execute yourselves out of a crime wave. It doesn't work.

It is working in Saudi. When a trader closes his shop with a chair and go to prayer and nothing is stolen, this is proof for it.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 129):
What is apostasy? It's a religious crime. It's the renunciation of one's religion. Are you in favor of executing people who decide they don't believe in Islam any more?

You are also in favor of executing people who are drug addicts?

I hope to hell you never have to deal with addiction in your family, friend, and I mean that sincerely.

Did you read my response?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 114):
At least four of the above crimes it will be OK with me to impose the death penalty. Why should your life be spared after killing, destroying the life, creating a drug dependent future generation, and when you commit armed robbery it means that you are ready to kill? Or why should the tax payers pay for your stay long term in a prison?

And yes i dealt with drug problems in my family. It was not fun.

Aaron747 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:46 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 132):
When a trader closes his shop with a chair and go to prayer and nothing is stolen, this is proof for it.

Nonsense. In Japan, you can leave your wallet in a major train station toilet, come back the next morning to the station police box, and reliably expect that it will be there. You can leave a digital camera in the back seat of an unlocked car in a supermarket parking lot, and it will be there an hour later. I've done both. It's a reflection of the strict values Japanese society places on respecting the belongings of other people - not some fear of the local beheading squad.

SOBHI51 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:56 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 133):
Nonsense. In Japan, you can leave your wallet in a major train station toilet, come back the next morning to the station police box, and reliably expect that it will be there. You can leave a digital camera in the back seat of an unlocked car in a supermarket parking lot, and it will be there an hour later. I've done both. It's a reflection of the strict values Japanese society places on respecting the belongings of other people - not some fear of the local beheading squad.

Same thing applies here. Strict laws or strict values is two faces of the same coin. And you make a comparison between Japanese and Saudi population in education, Japanese will be much higher. Defending your family honor is punished less harshly in the middle east.

Aaron747 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:11 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 134):
Strict laws or strict values is two faces of the same coin.

That may be, but they are not dependent variables. There is virtually no serious religion in modern Japanese society, other than work and endless consumerism. Just making a point that this beheading stuff really looks silly and barbaric compared to how other people are living.

SOBHI51 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:21 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 135):
That may be, but they are not dependent variables. There is virtually no serious religion in modern Japanese society, other than work and endless consumerism. Just making a point that this beheading stuff really looks silly and barbaric compared to how other people are living.

Still death sentences were handed for some people responsible for the Sarine attack on Tokyo metro. Not sure if any were executed or still waiting to be executed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway

radiopolitic · Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:10 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 132):
It is working in Saudi. When a trader closes his shop with a chair and go to prayer and nothing is stolen, this is proof for it.

Be very careful with that. Not only is that purely anecdotal it is also based purely on correlation and correlation does not equal causation.

SOBHI51 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:23 pm

Quoting Radiopolitic (Reply 137):
Be very careful with that. Not only is that purely anecdotal it is also based purely on correlation and correlation does not equal causation

Purely anecdotal? No it is not, i saw it myself.

radiopolitic · Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:33 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 138):

Purely anecdotal? No it is not, i saw it myself.

an⋅ec⋅do⋅tal
/ˈænɪkˌdoʊtl, ˌænɪkˈdoʊtl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [an-ik-doht-l, an-ik-doht-l] Show IPA
–adjective
1. pertaining to, resembling, or containing anecdotes: an anecdotal history of jazz.
2. (of the treatment of subject matter in representational art) pertaining to the relationship of figures or to the arrangement of elements in a scene so as to emphasize the story content of a subject. Compare narrative (def. 6).
3. based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation: anecdotal evidence.

Not to mention whether it was anecdotal or not it still does not deal with the correlation equaling causation issue.

SOBHI51 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:39 pm

Quoting Radiopolitic (Reply 139):
Not to mention whether it was anecdotal or not it still does not deal with the correlation equaling causation issue.

Sorry i do not understand your question. Can you put in simple language please.

AGM100 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:45 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 128):
Not all Muslims are bad,same thing will apply to other religion

Of course not ... We are working with people in Saudi /Turkey/Indonesia right now .. no problem. Everyone is equal in my world ... they are all potential customers.

SOBHI51 ... My concern is this. If as you say there are many Muslims who are willing to give the state of Israel a chance....

Do you believe that if Israel pulled back to 48 ,and gave up east Jerusalem that the extremists would be marginalized ? Would this sign of reconciliation quell the hardliners like Hamas , Hezbollah ? Would this give the Muslim governments a chance to change the dynamics and combat the terrorist organizations ? ( Given that a Palestinian state is established as well)

SOBHI51 · Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:06 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 141):
Do you believe that if Israel pulled back to 48 ,and gave up east Jerusalem that the extremists would be marginalized ? Would this sign of reconciliation quell the hardliners like Hamas , Hezbollah ? Would this give the Muslim governments a chance to change the dynamics and combat the terrorist organizations ? ( Given that a Palestinian state is established as well)

Very much so. Hamas i see them turning to be more of the political party as they can gain more than being a type of military wing, they are better organized, more popular and will always win in a free election.
Hezbollah have declared that the reason that they still armed and fighting is that small part of Lebanon is still occupied (Shaaba farm). So logically if this problem is solved they also will become a powerful political party in Lebanon, they have a lot of followers.
Terrorism will still exist some way or another but if the problem is solved there backing and funding will dwindle to next to nothing.
Since 1975 i was always convinced that no war will ever solve the Israeli-Arab conflict and only talks will do that. And for that you need to talk to your enemies. That's why i think President Obama approach with Iran and Syria as a very smart move.
Regards.

BOCHORA · Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:54 pm

Quoting PIA777 (Reply 123):
Building this on occupied land will no doubt lead to more resentment and anger from the Palestinians. Why are the Israelis building there?? It's illegal.

This is key.
If Israel wanted to work for peace they would stop. They wan't to aggravate and tempt retaliation.

rjpieces · Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:59 pm

Quoting Bochora (Reply 143):
This is key.
If Israel wanted to work for peace they would stop. They wan't to aggravate and tempt retaliation.

It's the height of fallacy to conclude that the settlements are the problem when A.) the Palestinians have been attacking Israel long before 1967 and B.) Israel pulled ALL of its settlers out of Gaza and what has happened? Two wars since 2005.

WunalaYann · Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:23 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 127):
why does Israel and the home land of the Jews attract such attention.

Mostly, JUST because they are Jews.

The world, and the Middle East in particular, will have made quantum leaps in peace and intelligence when people like you stop accusing everyone who disagrees with some policies of the State of Israel of being anti-Semitic. Long way to go, obviously. sarcastic

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 136):
Still death sentences were handed for some people responsible for the Sarine attack on Tokyo metro. Not sure if any were executed or still waiting to be executed.

Are you effectively comparing terrorism with theft? The sarin gas attacks in Tokyo killed twelve people. I oppose death penalty by principle, but I oppose it even more when carried out for petty crime. And the mere notion that some people still talk of apostasy in 2009 is friggin' scary.

The Middle East is in serious need of a big-time chill pill and a wake-up call to 2009.

SOBHI51 · Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:49 am

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 145):
Are you effectively comparing terrorism with theft

And where did you get the idea that theft is punishable with death? Get your facts right please.

WunalaYann · Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:00 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 146):
And where did you get the idea that theft is punishable with death? Get your facts right please.

How about I get them straight from you? Smile

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 114):
armed robbery

Or are your facts not straight? Smile

SOBHI51 · Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:09 am

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 147):
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 114):
armed robbery

Or are your facts not straight?

You said theft and petty crime. Do you consider armed robbery as a petty crime. You are armed for one reason only to use that arm in case you are discovered. Then you are ready to kill,so come on be realistic and don't call armed robbery a theft or a petty crime.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 145):
Are you effectively comparing terrorism with theft

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 145):
but I oppose it even more when carried out for petty crime

radiopolitic · Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:39 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 140):

Sorry i do not understand your question. Can you put in simple language please.

It wasn't a question.

Sure, you were using evidence (your personal observations) - the shopkeeper who leaves his store unlocked when he goes to prayer - as evidence that harsh penalties in Saudi Arabia are deterring crime.

What I'm saying is that while it is easy to conclude that the crime rate is low because of the harsh penalties, the low crime rate is not necessarily due to the fact that there are harsh penalties.

Drawing the connection between the two is a correlation. It's a famous saying in science and statistics that 'correlation does not equal causation.' Not to mention that your evidence for the connection between the two is something that you observed (an anecdote) and not up to the standards of methodology should one be conducting a proper analysis.

Apologies that the previous post was confusing.

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