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WunalaYann
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:23 am



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 148):
Do you consider armed robbery as a petty crime.

As long as the weapon is not used, yes. If you shoot and kill someone, then it is murder.

That armed robbery is more serious than car theft is clear. That it is worthy of the same punishment as murder or rape is simply outrageous.

But to each their own.  Smile
 
AGM100
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:47 am



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 144):
It's the height of fallacy to conclude that the settlements are the problem when A.) the Palestinians have been attacking Israel long before 1967 and B.) Israel pulled ALL of its settlers out of Gaza and what has happened? Two wars since 2005.

This is true , my question and answer from SOBHI5 was leading to this response. My fear is as history has proved ... they will not stop at 48. I respectfully disagree with those on here who use the 48 argument. The objective has always been to push the Israelites into the sea ... until we see some real clamp down on the terrorists in the north and in Gaza I am not hopeful.

I would like too see troops from Saudi , Jordan , Egypt, UAE ,Qatar , Kuwait in Gaza and Southern Lebanon as a real peace keeping force. This would assure Israel of the commitment by the Muslim nations to establish accountability and stop the cross border attacks . I do not support Hillary Clinton just waging her finger and pushing for a Palestinian state .. they need to show that they can govern and control there own population ... is that too much ?
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:13 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 150):
But to each their own.

As long as it is clear in your laws then before you commit the crime you know the consequences. Let me give you an example: If you are carrying a small amount of drugs for your own personal use and you got caught in 2 different places , USA and Singapore what will happen to you in both countries? In the USA you might get few months in prison(rarely) some kind of medical treatment and some community hours. In Singapore you face the death penalty. Big difference, but this is the law in each country.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
baroque
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:07 am



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 152):
As long as it is clear in your laws then before you commit the crime you know the consequences. Let me give you an example: If you are carrying a small amount of drugs for your own personal use and you got caught in 2 different places , USA and Singapore what will happen to you in both countries? In the USA you might get few months in prison(rarely) some kind of medical treatment and some community hours. In Singapore you face the death penalty. Big difference, but this is the law in each country.

Actually in Singapore the death penalty is for trafficking - defined as 15 gms or more of heroin. So the intent is that your summary is incorrect, on the other hand if you used a lot, I am not sure that Singapore would look at you in a kindly fashion.

If "Death of a Princess"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_a_Princess
was entirely fictional, why did the Saudi Government try to censor the program?

But why are we letting a discussion of penal systems in SA distract us from 73K housing units in Palestinian territory? Is there any good reason to do this or is it as Bochora writes:

Quoting Bochora (Reply 143):
Quoting PIA777 (Reply 123):
Building this on occupied land will no doubt lead to more resentment and anger from the Palestinians. Why are the Israelis building there?? It's illegal.

This is key.
If Israel wanted to work for peace they would stop. They want to aggravate and tempt retaliation.

Anyone care to argue an opposing view - that is produce good reasons to build these houses??????
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:51 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 153):
If "Death of a Princess"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_a_Princess
was entirely fictional, why did the Saudi Government try to censor the program?

That was a real.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 153):
Actually in Singapore the death penalty is for trafficking - defined as 15 gms or more of heroin

In fact it says on the immigration entry form anything over 12 gm is punishable by death, no mention if it was for trafficking or personal use.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
baroque
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:38 am



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 154):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 153):
Actually in Singapore the death penalty is for trafficking - defined as 15 gms or more of heroin

In fact it says on the immigration entry form anything over 12 gm is punishable by death, no mention if it was for trafficking or personal use.

Happy to accept a correction to 12 gm, but they use the quantity to figure out if you are intent on trafficking. They probably do not think you will answer truthfully when questioned. For example, you will likely try to explain that the 2 kilograms they just found you with are for personal use and yes, you are a heavy user. So they just say more than - whatever - and get out the rope.

Still does not make it an acceptable policy. I am not sure about Singapore, but a draconian set of laws does not seem to be keeping Indonesia drug free.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 154):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 153):
If "Death of a Princess"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_a_Princess
was entirely fictional, why did the Saudi Government try to censor the program?

That was a real.

I know, there is another program explaining exactly who it was and what happened. Not a happy episode. The Saudi government got into a heck of a state and tried to cut off trade - which must have indicated severe disapproval because trade with the UK at the time (1980) included some arms deals that appear to have been quite beneficial to certain parties within SA. One assumes that Bxx would not have been too happy to keep paying, assuming of course they were paying in the first instance!!!

But again getting back onto the houses, there is an Israeli out in Aus at present who is opposed to the development of settlements. Just listened to him while returning from the Post Office on our PM program. There will be a podcast posted and a transcript, but the site only has up to Tues 10 Mar and this item was on Wed 11 March 2009.

I think he will be on either or both of Late Night Live and Lateline so when he appears I will post a link. His basic thesis is that Israel has gone too far down the settlement route for it to be reversed even though he is strongly opposed to there being any settlements.

He (sorry do not remember name, but he is part of a major Israeli grouping opposed to settlements) thinks that the settlements have removed the possibility of a two state solution. And the real ground for discussion now is what will happen to Palestinians inside the borders of Israel + Palestine - or the old mandated territory.

He also commented that the Israelis are largely to blame for the choicen being between the corrupt Fatah and the extremist (not the word he used, but my memory is not that good!!) Hamas due to the policy of killing or locking up leaders or potential leaders of the Palestinians. You could argue that the Israelis are just as enthusiastic at beheading as the Saudis except they do it to political organizations. He asked rhetorically how many groups would still produce good leaders after 40 years of beheading of the leadership. Seemed a fair point I thought!!!

Meanwhile Emile Nakhleh's book looks to be essential reading.

http://whirledview.typepad.com/whirl...-engagement-book-review-essay.html

Someone will point this out so:
No Bush administration fan

It is clear that Emile Nakhleh is no fan of the Bush administration and I don’t blame him. His eye-witness testimony in the book’s second chapter concerning Dick Cheney’s bullying of Agency analysts to produce the story the administration wanted to hear as opposed to the story that was true regarding Saddam Hussein’s supposed possession of WMD and his supposed links to Al Qaeda prior to the 2003 invasion rings loud and clear.


Oops, so much for the CIA being in ignorance of it all. More positively:
Yet what makes A Necessary Engagement particularly well worth reading is Turkey - Bezirgan - New Mosque II 9-20-06
Nakhleh’s nuanced description of the developing political awareness of the 1.4 billion people – many young, undereducated and unemployed – in the Muslim world but, in particular, the increasingly important and largely constructive role being played in that world by reformist thinkers and mainstream Islamic political parties – from AKP in Turkey, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and Jordan, the Islamic Party in Malaysia to Hamas in Palestine. Many of these parties, he points out, have won elections fair and square, and despite rhetoric to the contrary, participate in the rules of the democratic game. Nakhleh further argues that for the Israelis and the Bush administration to have refused to recognize the Hamas electoral victory in Gaza after insisting upon free and fair elections there is perceived as the height of hypocrisy throughout the Islamic world.


Nakhleh writes that it is crucial for Americans to distinguish among the relatively small number of secularists with whom the West is most comfortable, the vast pool of mainstream Muslims, the reformist Muslim thinkers and the tiny percentage of militant Muslims whose unrealistic goal it is to turn the multiethnic, multidimensional Islamic world into a one-world caliphate governed by the most backward and repressive interpretations of Islamic law.

Fissures within Islam

He stresses that we need to be cognizant of the fissures within Islam – not only from the perspective of the Sunni-Shiia divide but also the importance of struggles for power within Muslim majority and minority nations and of “mainstream reformist Islam” in the battle for Muslim “hearts and minds.”


There is an interview with Nakhleh at
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2512469.htm
MARK COLVIN: So in practical terms, in terms of Western governments' foreign policy, what do you do if you're faced with the choice between a corrupt government and something that may end up looking like Hamas or Hezbollah?

EMILE NAKHLEH: There are many Muslim Islamic political groups that have participated in government, and behaved, after they reached the national legislature, like any other party.

So we've, in our analysis, Hezbollah has elected members to the Lebanese national legislature, to the Lebanese Parliament. The members of Hezbollah there, as indeed the members of the Muslim Brotherhood in the Egyptian Parliament, or the members of the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan, after reaching that national legislature, not one of them has raised the spectre of Sharia, Islamic law. Not one of them has demanded that Islamic law be instituted because they were elected to government.


Not sure that is in accord with Indonesian experience, but it is his view.
 
NAV20
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:07 am

Is this thread about Saudi-Arabian policy on the death penalty?  Smile
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:18 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 156):
Is this thread about Saudi-Arabian policy on the death penalty? Smile

A very good question indeed. Reviewing this thread, it strikes me as one of the most generally 'off-topic' discussions I have seen in a very long time. At times it is purely about gay rights, at others purely about the death penalty, and in lengthy parts clearly nothing to do with the topic under discussion - the proposed West Bank settlements. Have I missed something? Have the rules changed?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 153):
Anyone care to argue an opposing view - that is produce good reasons to build these houses??????

I would doubt it - because there is no good reason. Such actions can only lead one way - to more discord, conflict, bad feeling and violence. If this is what Israel wants, let her carry right on. If on the other hand she wants us to think for one second that she is even half serious about wanting a lasting peace, stop this nonsense immediately and in addition start dismantling more existing illegal settlements.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
baroque
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:45 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 157):
If this is what Israel wants, let her carry right on. If on the other hand she wants us to think for one second that she is even half serious about wanting a lasting peace, stop this nonsense immediately and in addition start dismantling more existing illegal settlements.

Here is one Israeli's view as promised last night. The transcript is now at:
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2513577.htm
Middle East peace process on hold

PM - Wednesday, 11 March , 2009 18:34:00 Reporter: Mark Colvin
MARK COLVIN: Middle East peace negotiations are in something of a holding pattern at the moment, as Binyamin Netanyahu tries to form a government in Israel, and Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton start trying to re-position the US after the Bush years.

That hasn't stopped the opposing Palestinian factions from getting together in Cairo to start a meeting on whether they can create a national unity Government.

That's a big task in itself because there's a wide gulf between Fatah, which runs the West Bank, and Hamas, which is in charge in Gaza.

Nonetheless, that gulf is still nothing like as wide as the one between the Palestinians in general and the Israelis.

The peace activist Dr Jeff Halper, who's the coordinator of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, is in Australia at the moment and I asked him about the long-term prospects for a two state solution.

JEFF HALPER: The two state solution seems to be gone. In other words, if we're talking about a real genuine Palestinian state in the occupied territories, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza, people have to understand that the occupied territories are only 22 per cent of historic Palestine. So it's a very small area and the chances of Israel actually withdrawing its settlements and the Palestinians actually even getting a state even in that 22 percent, seems to be very, very slim.

MARK COLVIN: Is that another way of talking about returning to the 1967 boundaries?

JEFF HALPER: That's right. In other words, if the Palestinians forget the West Bank issues, East Jerusalem and Gaza, it's a small area but they could have a shot at a viable state. You know, they'd have borders with Jordan and Egypt, they'd have a sea port in Gaza, they'd have an airport in Gaza. There'd have to be a connection between Gaza and the West Bank and imagine having Jerusalem and Bethlehem as a tourist attractions which is a pretty significant thing.

So I think they could make a go of it but the problem is that they're not going to get that territory.

MARK COLVIN: Because why? because Israel will never return to the '67 boundaries, because of the settlements?

JEFF HALPER: That's right, that's right. Because of the settlements, there are half a million Israelis living in the occupied territories. You know, settlements is misleading word cause people have the idea of a couple little cabins on a hillside but in fact some of these are satellite cities of 70-80,000 people.

Also available as a podcast.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:15 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 136):
Still death sentences were handed for some people responsible for the Sarine attack on Tokyo metro. Not sure if any were executed or still waiting to be executed.

I never said there was no death penalty here, but it's only for the most serious of murders and with the overhaul of the legal system that is currently under way, will likely be gone by 2015 anyway.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 157):
I would doubt it - because there is no good reason. Such actions can only lead one way - to more discord, conflict, bad feeling and violence. If this is what Israel wants, let her carry right on. If on the other hand she wants us to think for one second that she is even half serious about wanting a lasting peace, stop this nonsense immediately and in addition start dismantling more existing illegal settlements.

Totally agree with everything except the "illegal" charge - the international laws surrounding the establishment of the settlement are hideously complex thanks to the numerous UN findings on the subject and if the argument were strictly a legal one it's ostensibly impossible to render an opinion on legality one way or the other. But nonetheless, the settlements are inherently unwise and damaging to anything resembling peace. Their continued support represents the worst hypocrisy in an Israeli policy that should be standing for what's fair and right instead of what's convenient and politically expedient.

Sigh...

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BOCHORA
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:32 pm



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 144):
A.) the Palestinians have been attacking Israel long before 1967

They are retaliating to attack from the Israelis. You think we hear the real truth.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 144):
B.) Israel pulled ALL of its settlers out of Gaza and what has happened?

Wrong.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:47 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 153):
But why are we letting a discussion of penal systems in SA distract us from 73K housing units in Palestinian territory? Is there any good reason to do this or is it as Bochora writes:

Because that number is factually incorrect?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:31 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 159):
will likely be gone by 2015 anyway.

If it will take Japan 6 years to get rid of this law so Saudi should be allowed 10 at least.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 161):
Because that number is factually incorrect?

73K or 50K or 10K or even 1 it is still illegal and does not show willingness to seek peace.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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n229nw
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:37 am



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 162):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 161):
Because that number is factually incorrect?

73K or 50K or 10K or even 1 it is still illegal and does not show willingness to seek peace.

That's true. (Weather or not the thorny "legality" issue is even invoked...)

Quoting Bochora (Reply 160):
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 144):
A.) the Palestinians have been attacking Israel long before 1967

They are retaliating to attack from the Israelis. You think we hear the real truth.

Huh? That made no sense...

Quoting Bochora (Reply 160):
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 144):
B.) Israel pulled ALL of its settlers out of Gaza and what has happened?

Wrong.

HUH??!?

RJ's post is totally wrong-headed but your reply is totally wrong...

It's simply true that Israel did pull all its settlers out of Gaza. However, what RJpieces seems to miss when he expected the Palestinians to bow down and thank Israel for the Gaza withdrawal was that at the same time the Gazans were basically imprisoned, cut off from basic supplies and from trade, and more settlements were being planned and built in the West Bank than were removed from Gaza--so the unilateral Gaza withdrawal was hardly something that Gazans might be expected to see as justice served to them or the Palestinians as a whole. Do they keep shooting themselves in the foot by launching rockets into Israel? Oh yes, but so does Israel...

On both sides of this issue the extremists have somehow managed to force government policy in a way that continually screws the majority on both sides who just want to live their lives.
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
baroque
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:51 am



Quoting N229NW (Reply 163):
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 162):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 161):
Because that number is factually incorrect?

73K or 50K or 10K or even 1 it is still illegal and does not show willingness to seek peace.

That's true. (Weather or not the thorny "legality" issue is even invoked...)

Yup I am still scratching my head over that "one" (pun included!). Must be that if one of us can guess the correct number, the Israelis will remove all the settlements. Perhaps not. In which case what the hell does the exact number matter?

Are we all imagining settlements built on Palestinian land?

Are Scotch mists the flavour of the decade in the ME?

If it was a plea to move on to the next item of business, OK, how will the voting and civil rights go in a single state? When to the barricades come down. Israel seems to have had its chance at a two state solution. It appears to have intentionally muffed it, I am not so sure that the international community will be so neglectful as a one state solution starts to shake out. Darfur may not have been sorted but any attempt to run a solution a la Khartoum method in any other location looks like ending up with an indictment.
 
NAV20
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:35 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 164):
Are we all imagining settlements built on Palestinian land?

Are Scotch mists the flavour of the decade in the ME?

Quote of the month, Baroque......  Smile

I keep wondering what would have happened if the Germans had in fact successfully invaded Britain in 1940. I'd probably have been wheeled in my pram all the way to your 'frozen north,' with no possessions other than what my parents and my older brother could carry. And we'd have had to start from scratch, having lost the house that my father had worked his guts out to buy.

OK, we'd probably have made out up to a point. But I'd never have stopped working to right that wrong - to get back home where I belonged. And nor would my father, or my uncles, or my cousins, all of whom had 'done their bit' in both world wars to stop the Germans.

What's more, if that HAD in fact happened, I'd no doubt currently be enjoying just about 100% support from A.netters. I'd have been driven out of my home, literally at bayonet-point, by ruthless Nazi storm-troopers - a totally unjust situation.......

So just WHY is what happened to lots of Palestinian kids in 1948 so different to what might have happened to me in 1940?

I'd never, ever, have accepted a Nazi occupation of London and Southern England - right up to the present day.

So why should the Palestinians accept a Zionist occupation of Jerusalem and most of Palestine?

Because it happened a mere eight years later?  

[Edited 2009-03-14 05:36:50]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
baroque
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:54 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 165):
I'd never, ever, have accepted a Nazi occupation of London and Southern England - right up to the present day.

So why should the Palestinians accept a Zionist occupation of Jerusalem and most of Palestine?

Because it happened a mere eight years later?

That is all a bit strong on logic Nav, you could earn yourself a holiday doing that.  angel   Big grin

Trying to think what the attitude was in 1940 re a German invasion. "Not bloody likely" seems about as close as I can get although at that age "bloody" was not yet in my vocabulary - I think!! But I agree with the overall thrust of what you wrote there. Not acceptable indeed.
 
NAV20
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RE: Israel Plans 73,300 Housing Units In The West Bank

Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:37 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 166):
That is all a bit strong on logic Nav, you could earn yourself a holiday doing that.

Tend to take logic seriously on occasion, Baroque. If we forsake logic, what are we left with?

Certainly, I could never bring myself to kill people, or grab their land, now, today, purely on the basis of what whoever wrote the Book of Moses said Moses said God said to Abraham, 3,000 or more years ago..........

Sickens me, frankly. The very reverse of what 'religion' ('Love Thy Neighbour As Thyself') is generally supposed to be about.

[Edited 2009-03-14 07:10:17]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci

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