scrubbsywg
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Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:40 am

So i know this sad crime was heard around the world when it happened. Well, today the trial of the accused got underway in winnipeg(it was moved from Portage la Prairie when it was deemed that the courthouse in Portage wasn't secure enough). The trial is scheduled to last 3 days, with the first day today. Here is what is some info:

-Both the crown and defense agree on the statement of facts of the crime. No witnesses to the crime will be called. There are some gruesome details that came out today that you can read in the link in this post.
-The entire trial will centre around the concept of Li being "not criminally responsible" aka the insanity defense.
-both the crown and defense doctors agree that Li was not criminally responsible when he commited this viscious attack
-Li plead not guilty today

It is likely that the judge will rule that Li was NCR since all witnesses being called will agree on this.

In Canada, if you are found NCR you are committed to an institution. You can be released at any time when a board of doctors, and others, determine you are no longer a threat. At this point he would be released into the public without going to jail. It could be 1 year, 5 years or life inside a mental ward at a hospital or institution.

This case has really brought up the debate about the insanity defense. In the past, most cases with this defense in my memory have been borderline "insanity" defenses. To me, it is clear Li was not right when he did this.

I am honestly not sure what the best way to deal with him is. Many people are calling for him to be committed for life. Can you imagine being in an institution even after doctors have deemed you normal under medication and/or counseling?

The next argument is throw him in jail. How can we do that to someone who doctors agree was not right?

I am not sure there is any good way for this to end. Any punishment he gets will upset a lot of people.

I have had several family members in mental institutions and I have spent countless hours talking to paranoid schizophrenics and it is not a simple disease. People that genuinely have this disease really are messed up. I really am on the fence on this whole thing.

Graphic details in the following articles:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/can...ALeqM5g6yzZOswjctLEjNXiUzmeHDRbY2w

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bre...of-Greyhound-killing-40652712.html
 
LH423
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:29 am

I understand the family's desire for justice but this man should be surrounded by doctors, not guards.

Trust me, the severity and gruesomeness of the crime is pretty much a guarantee that this guy isn't getting out of the institution anytime soon.

Justice doesn't always come in the form of jail time.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
JAL
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:26 pm

The guy should be jailed for the rest of his miserable life!
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
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falstaff
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:43 pm



Quoting JAL (Reply 2):
The guy should be jailed for the rest of his miserable life!

I don't care if he is sick or not. He derserves a beating and one shot to the back of the head. If that doesn't kill him throw him in a ditch until he bleeds to death. He deserves nothing better.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:15 pm



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Thread starter):
This case has really brought up the debate about the insanity defense. In the past, most cases with this defense in my memory have been borderline "insanity" defenses.

The insanity defence was meant as a shield for the truely insane and mental deficients. I'm talking about drooling, blithering nutcases. The type of person that you can tell by looking at him or talking with him for more than 30 seconds that he's a few fries short of a Happy Meal. Those are the kind of people who truely do not know right from wrong, who just live by their insticts. The number of those people are thankfully few, but they do exist, and the insanity defence was meant for them.

Theoretically, and using a broad interpretation of mental illness (as is PC nowadays - everyone needs a shrink) you could argue that nearly all rapists and murderers are mentally ill, and thus plead insanity. Pretty much anyone who commits murder or other violent crime including carjacking, robbery etc. is basically a sociopath. A sociopath is someone who doesn't give a damn about the rights and welfare of anyone other than himself. He knows the difference between right and wrong - he remembers it from his parents, church, whatever growing up - he just doesn't care.

Otherwise known as Me, me, me. Psychologists call it Antisocial personality disorder (APD). I just call it being an assh*le.

Here's where draw the line. If you are capable of living a life where you can seem "normal", i.e. you don't drool on your shirt and can speak more or less coherantly, that indicates that you are capable of absorbing into your head what constitutes normal behavior, and you've blended in. If you are capable of absorbing that level of information, I find it hard to believe that you were unable to absorb the concept of "don't hurt people". You are as sane as any other assh*le in jail or in Congress.

So I say that if this guy seems pretty normal looking and talking to him, he's not insane.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:56 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Those are the kind of people who truely do not know right from wrong, who just live by their insticts. The number of those people are thankfully few, but they do exist, and the insanity defence was meant for them.

If they don't know right from wrong that is no excuse. He should know that killing is wrong just from being in society. Everyone knows that murderers are put in jail and can be put to death (in some places). Try getting out of a contract because you didn't read it. Saying you didn't know something about it will not get you out of it. Trying to get out of anything by saying you didn't know it was illegal won't fly in most courts so I don't know why not knowing right from wrong is any different. You kill somebody, cut them up, and eat their parts in front of a bus full of people you are guilty and a trail is a waste of time. The hangman's rope should have been used the hour after he was picked up.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
he remembers it from his parents, church, whatever growing up - he just doesn't care.

A person may have grown up without any morals instilled in them at all and not be insane.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:54 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
If they don't know right from wrong that is no excuse. He should know that killing is wrong just from being in society.

That's what I'm saying. Anyone who can live in society has no excuse. But you do have those rare individuals who are completely gaga. Most of the time they don't see the outside of a nuthouse.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
ronglimeng
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:04 pm

I'm surprised that this case has even gone to trial. It seemed so obvious that the man was "not criminally responsible". It is been a principle of our justice systems for over a 100 years that we don't consider mentally ill people as criminals.

I think the real crime here is the failure of our mental health system to keep people like this man in some kind of protective custody....protective for us, not him. There seems to be just too many mentally ill people walking around with medication in their pockets, pushing people off subway platforms and into the front of buses.

I'm sure that no one likes to be mentally ill but when the symptoms present themselves, I feel our health care systems need to do a more proactive job of detaining and treating them.
 
trvyyz
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:29 pm

Whatever happens, I hope he doesn't roam free on the streets anytime.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:35 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
Most of the time they don't see the outside of a nuthouse.

Too bad we have to say most of the time and not all of the time.

Quoting Ronglimeng (Reply 7):
I feel our health care systems need to do a more proactive job of detaining and treating them.

At one time that was the case, at least here in the US. Just in the Detroit area there were at least three large mental hospitals (one, Wayne County, was also a general hospital). Thousands of people were "treated" and housed in these places. Today all three are gone. Only part of Wayne County's building still stands and that is now an office building. We may have more effective methods for treating mental illness today, but a lot of nuts are on the loose with no place to go.

Wayne County had a 990 acre hospital containing mens and womens mental hopitals, a general hospital, and a home for the infirm (nursing home). There was also a farm which patients grew food crops and tobacco, the place was nearly self suffiecent. They even made their own cigarettes. They had a police, fire department, a post office, a railroad station, a bakery, and a theater. Even homeless people could live there, it was also the Wayne County poor house. Those that couldn't handle society could stay there and be given a job to work off their room and board. By 1973 the place stared to close and most of it torn down in the 1980s. Regardless of what you think of mental institutions places like that were a place for people to go and to stay out of "normal society" today many mental cases have no place to go and if they don't have somebody looking after them they don't take their medication and cause problems in our society. Some people say we have more crazies today than we did 50 years ago. Well, 50 years ago they were locked up and out of our way.

Are more compationite today because we don't have large mental hospitals or less because we do have them? I say we are less compasionate today.
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Cadet57
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:52 pm



Quoting LH423 (Reply 1):
I understand the family's desire for justice but this man should be surrounded by doctors, not guards

No, he needs to be put down, just like any other rabid ANIMALS.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
808TWA
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:19 pm

There are a few extremist factions around this world, who would like to acquire his services if he gets released.
Love is in the air, so practice safe flying
 
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falstaff
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:49 am



Quoting 808TWA (Reply 11):
There are a few extremist factions around this world, who would like to acquire his services if he gets released.

That is correct, that is why....

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
he needs to be put down, just like any other rabid ANIMALS.

If I would have been on that bus I would have shot him as I walked by, when I was getting off the bus. Oh wait... I can't carry my gun in Canada because us law abiding citizens might kill somebody. I guess somebody forgot to tell this guy that murder is against the law.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
planewasted
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:10 am

Of course this guy is insane and should not be kept in an ordinary prison. Putting him into prison is like putting a lion that killed a man in prison.
 
skyyblue
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:15 pm

This guy should be executed and beheaded the same way he did to the poor innocent man. An eye for an eye.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:56 am

The use of the insanity plea for those that commit murder or other heinious acts is something of great conterversy in most of the world. There is no guaranteed cure for many forms of mental illness and that in turn sets off fears in many to call for some type of lifelong confinement. After several murders or attempts in the USA, especially after Mr. Hinkley's attepted assination of then President Reagan, there were calls for some third way often called 'Guilty but Menatally ill' that would mean a lifelong confinement or release like that under parole with the approval and supervision of a judge.
 
AF340
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:09 am



Quoting SKYYBLUE (Reply 14):
An eye for an eye

... makes the whole world blind...  Wink

Normally I call for the most brutal punishment available, but in this case, I must say - he shouldn't go to jail. It is clear he did not know what he was doing and in our day and age these kind of people should be hospitalized in stead of rotting in jail. It is not the middle ages, he is supposed to be rehabilitated (not likely in this case...) not killed. If he were sane, I would call for this punishment:

Quoting SKYYBLUE (Reply 14):
executed and beheaded the same way he did to the poor innocent man

RIP Tim Maclean  tombstone 
 
LH423
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:29 am



Quoting Ronglimeng (Reply 7):
There seems to be just too many mentally ill people walking around with medication in their pockets, pushing people off subway platforms and into the front of buses.

Canada ranks among the lowest of OECD countries in terms of spending on mental health as a total percentage of health care spending.. A walk around a city centre in Canada will show that. We really need to be doing more to help those with mental illnesses.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
Springbok747
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:24 am

So he is not guilty ?! WTF?! This has to be the most ridiculous decision ever.

A CHINESE immigrant who beheaded and hacked to pieces a Canadian bus passenger in front of horrified travellers has been found not guilty of murder after being diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25147647-401,00.html

HE KILLED SOMEONE! And he is NOT GUILTY?!!!!!!!!! I hope someone shoots the bastard...people like him have no right to roam free.
אני תומך בישראל
 
767Lover
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:36 pm



Quoting AF340 (Reply 16):
It is clear he did not know what he was doing

Yet he apologized afterward and admitted guilt and said "please kill me", which implies he knew he did something wrong.

BTW, I am incredulous that the rest of the passengers weren't able to overpower the guy. It seems like they were so passive. Even if he was swinging the knife around, it seems someone would have taken the risk. Very weird.
 
ronglimeng
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:12 pm



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 19):
BTW, I am incredulous that the rest of the passengers weren't able to overpower the guy. It seems like they were so passive. Even if he was swinging the knife around, it seems someone would have taken the risk. Very weird.

This is a point that was mentioned in some of the follow-up news items when the incident took place. I've been thinking about this too, especially after a recent Macleans article on another terrible incident in Canada (the "Montreal Massacre") suggested that when we don't know how to react, the default now is "cowardice".

I'd prefer to think that everyone on that bus was so shocked by the insane violence that they couldn't react properly. But I don't know. Maybe we are getting too far into the notion of personal safety and not promoting heroism enough?

I know of a case in my hometown of Parry Sound in the 1920's were a couple of plain ordinary citizens took off after some train robbers in a Bonnie and Clyde type chase. One of the chasers was killed. The killer/robber was hanged. I never read any contemporary reports that suggested what they did was foolish. But it is unthinkable that any civilian would do that today.
 
babybus
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RE: Bus Beheading Trial Underway

Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:18 pm

Like all cases reported in the paper we know so little facts. It's very easy to say 'why didnt the other passengers do this?' and 'why didn't someone else do that'. But the truth is we don't know the whole facts.

Newspaper reporters often can't be bothered to hear out the whole trial relying on second hand faxed copy and it makes it more sensational that the 'Wrong' verdict was given.

Maybe the guy who got killed was provocative and the passengers realized this and that's why no one helped. That's just my take. As I say we don't know the whole case and the facts involved.

I'm sure the Chinses guy got exactly what punishment the law states for thses crimes. So let's not get wound up by it.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.

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