Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Topic Author
Posts: 2968
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:22 am

Interesting article offering a current analysis of the criminal organization in Mexico and their effect on the governing of the Mexican nation.

"...the two failing states most worrying to the U.S. defense department, they said, are Pakistan and Mexico. Since such reports began appearing in January, Mexican officials have sternly denied that the drug cartel armies destabilizing the United States’ southern neighbor can be compared to the terrorist groups threatening to undermine the Islamic republic.

"It’s totally disproportionate and clearly mistaken,” a rattled-looking President Felipe Calderon told reporters in Davos, Switzerland. “To me it seems important that whatever doubts be cleared up, and I will do it personally.”

“The problem of the international media has to do with the interpretation some make of things,” political pundit Gabriel Guerra said on the nightly newscast of No. 1 network Televisa. “The argument of a failed state, which cannot withstand any inspection, and the absurd comparison with Pakistan are wrong and show a worrying simplicity.”

So has the foreign press corps been grossly misreading the scale of the challenges facing Mexico from the Kalashnikov-wielding drug armies? Or is there any truth behind the assertion that Mexico is descending into Somalia-style chaos?

The question about Mexico as a failing state was raised in a document entitled "Joint Operating Environment 2008" by the Virginia-based United States Joint Forces Command. The report attempts to glimpse at the challenges for the U.S. military over the next 25 years, to a future in which it says it could face terrorist-guided missiles in space and suicide bombers with exploding vests.

“Two large and important states bear consideration for a rapid and sudden collapse: Pakistan and Mexico,” the study says. “The Mexican possibility may seem less likely, but the government, its politicians, police and judicial infrastructure are all under sustained assault and pressure by criminal gangs and drug cartels.” The study then raises the red flag to the Mexican bull by warning that U.S. troops would have to respond to such a threat. "Any descent by Mexico into chaos would demand an American response based on the serious implications for homeland security alone," the report says."

Source: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/m...0212/analysis-mexico-failing-state

The major problem inside Mexico is that it is very difficult to tell the "good guys" from the "bad guys". Mexico's top drug enforcement chief was charged last year with accepting a half-million dollar bribe from the drug lords that he was supposed to bring to justice. This was the second antidrug "czar" was arrested for taking payoffs from narco-kingpins. Rumors that police chiefs, mayors, government bureaucrats, and members of the military command have been "bought" by the drug mafia are widespread. Mexico's citizens knew for a long time that a large number of their officials were taking drug bribes, but no one did anything about it.

So, Mexico's drug traffickers used the weak law enforcement to grow into huge organized gangs. Once organized, they have been able to fill the narco-trafficking power vacuum created by Colombia's successful crackdown on that country's drug cartels. The result is that the Mexican drug traffickers are now enormously rich and powerful, while Mexico pays in both loss of their citizens (and foreigners) lives and in economic activity (like tourism) that could bring some level of lasting peace and prosperity to Mexico.

Is the answer to legalize certain drug's usage in the United States? Or should the U.S. fully militarize the border region and be prepared to "prop up" the Mexican government should it need to be protected against an all-out assault by the drug-lords?
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
Derico
Posts: 4446
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:38 am

Yes it is grossly exaggerated to say Mexico is at a same socio-political condition as Pakistan. Comparison to Somalia is beyond absurd.

What is going on, and I know little but just my powers of deduction, is Mexican authorities are actually confronting the drug lords, and the drug lords are confronting themselves. This creates a massive smoke screen that gives the impression things are spiraling out of control, and yes, in some ways they have.

However, I would suggest that if Mexico was doing NOTHING and was just allowing the drugsters to just operate with complete impunity, and no resistance, then it could be considered a failed state with far more legitimacy.

The fact that there is a huge battle between law enforcement and criminals is in fact a sign of the opposite of a failed state, at least there is an organized federal response in the country in question to a disastrous problem many countries simply hide under a rug.

U.S inability for decades to curve their social ills with drugs could be considered a sign of a failed state, from a similar prism as the outside world views the current situation within Mexico.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
NIKV69
Posts: 13903
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:44 am



Quoting Derico (Reply 1):
Yes it is grossly exaggerated to say Mexico is at a same socio-political condition as Pakistan. Comparison to Somalia is beyond absurd

I will say this though Mexico is heading in a very dangerous direction and are at risk of losing control of the situation. The number of murders and kidnapping since new years is pretty scary. I hope our president has a plan if we get a huge number of mexican citizens trying to cross into this country if it begins to go south.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:52 am



Quoting Derico (Reply 1):
U.S inability for decades to curve their social ills with drugs could be considered a sign of a failed state, from a similar prism as the outside world views the current situation within Mexico.

Maybe it is not so much that Mexico is not failing but rather that it is failing in a different way.

It would be an irony if the US invaded Mexico to fight gangs that were armed with weapons largely imported from the US.

Given the splendid success of recent invasions, maybe the US would do better by looking to sorting out its own internal problems that tend to exacerbate problems in Mexico - such as both drug and gun policies.

Certainly Pakistan and Mexico are two of the largest failing states by population, but most of Africa qualifies, and a fair few states in the SW Pacific. How long until a clatter of obviously failing states outflanks terrorists.
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Topic Author
Posts: 2968
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:25 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):
I hope our president has a plan if we get a huge number of mexican citizens trying to cross into this country if it begins to go south.

There is also a large number (400,000 to 500,000) of American retirees that reside in Mexico for all or most of the year. There needs to be an exit plan for these Americans, if needed. They certainly won't all fit in the local U.S. consulate....
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:57 pm



Quoting Derico (Reply 1):
U.S inability for decades to curve their social ills with drugs

And yet there are people I speak with who insist their love of a "little weed" does no one any harm! I wish these people could be forced to live for a month in Nuevo Laredo or Juarez and view the carnage close up.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 13013
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:20 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 5):

And yet there are people I speak with who insist their love of a "little weed" does no one any harm!

Nice attempt at misdirection of an otherwise important issue of the day. If marijuana were legalized, locally grown, and taxed like any number of other legal substances far more dangerous than cannabis, the ill effects in Mexico of which you speak would be a non-issue. Don't forget that there are other drugs at play here, many of which command street values far in excess of all but the most exotic marijuana, some of which isn't routed into the country through Mexico anyhow.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
santosdumont
Posts: 1157
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:22 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:27 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 5):

And yet there are people I speak with who insist their love of a "little weed" does no one any harm!

Nice attempt at misdirection of an otherwise important issue of the day. If marijuana were legalized, locally grown, and taxed like any number of other legal substances far more dangerous than cannabis, the ill effects in Mexico of which you speak would be a non-issue.

I think that the product at issue here is cocaine. Demand on the US side is such that bribery and purchasing of local government and law-enforcement officials by Mexican drug cartels is just one of those costs of doing business. So is stocking up on firepower and eliminating competitors.

As long as the Amy Winehouses, Paris Hiltons, and Lindsay Lohans of the world keep that powder flowing into their noses while just getting a slap on the wrist (if that), the cartels will continue to thrive.
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
 
AM744
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:05 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:46 pm

No, if we take this reference at face value.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state

I'd say our foremost problem is the lack of law enforcement, at EVERY level. From the illegal street or subway merchant to the judge.
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:58 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
Nice attempt at misdirection of an otherwise important issue of the day. I

Sounds like I hit a nerve. "Legalization" is an academic issue. It hasn't happened and people are dying.

The fact that it is illegal, in demand, and being smuggled makes it part of the problem. People are dying, on both sides of the border, for ...yes...marijuana. Granted there are other drugs involved, but marijuana demand contributes to the carnage on the border cities and in the Mexican interior.

If you smoke this stuff you are part of the "food chain" pure and simple. If traffickers are killing people to control the marijuana distribution chain to the end user marijuana is part of the problem. Sure a lot of it is grown in the U.S, but much is still smuggled.

If you smoke this stuff, you contribute to the problem. I venture that if you would ask the families of the slain policemen, soldiers, and just people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, in Mexico they would agree.

If you smoke this stuff could you honestly say to a child of one of the slain law enforcement officials: "Dude, sorry about your old man getting blown away, but its only a little smoke; it doesn't really hurt anyone".

[Edited 2009-03-10 08:05:00]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
4holer
Posts: 2776
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:47 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:13 pm

Actually, since so many of the small labs in the US have been shut down with the inavailability of pseudoephedrine(?), meth production I understand is now a huge moneymaker for the drug cartels as well.
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9307
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:17 pm



Quoting Derico (Reply 1):
What is going on, and I know little but just my powers of deduction, is Mexican authorities are actually confronting the drug lords, and the drug lords are confronting themselves. This creates a massive smoke screen that gives the impression things are spiraling out of control, and yes, in some ways they have.

However, I would suggest that if Mexico was doing NOTHING and was just allowing the drugsters to just operate with complete impunity, and no resistance, then it could be considered a failed state with far more legitimacy.

The fact that there is a huge battle between law enforcement and criminals is in fact a sign of the opposite of a failed state, at least there is an organized federal response in the country in question to a disastrous problem many countries simply hide under a rug.

The Mexican government has no control over significant geographic areas. While not a failed state, it is certainly a more critical situation than you are suggesting.

Quoting Derico (Reply 1):
U.S inability for decades to curve their social ills with drugs could be considered a sign of a failed state, from a similar prism as the outside world views the current situation within Mexico.

And the fact that Mexico and central American governments are totally incapable of curing their social ills are part of the problem. The corruption and social disorder in Mexico is several orders of magnitude beyond the United States. Is Mexico on the same level as Pakistan? No, but they are closer to Pakistan than they are the United States.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):
I hope our president has a plan if we get a huge number of mexican citizens trying to cross into this country if it begins to go south.

Well we haven't had a plan for the huge number of Mexican citizens who actually did cross our border illegally in the last quarter century, what would give you hope now?  Yeah sure

Mexico is an embarrassment. For a country that sits above rich oil reserves and next door to one of the largest consumption economies in the world, they have been able to do nothing with these opportunities. It's as poor and corrupt today as it was a hundred years ago and a hundred years before that.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:26 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):
The fact that it is illegal, in demand, and being smuggled makes it part of the problem.

You have three factors there Lumberton that are to at least an extent independent. Cutting any of those three factors would mean that the other two would become largely irrelevant.

Make it legal you wreck the "industry".

Remove the demand, there is no industry.

Stop the smuggling, sorry this is where we came in.

In battle if you try a frontal attack and have to retreat in defeat, it is usually thought to be a good idea to think of another approach. With drugs, aside from the denial that the fairly obvious defeat has occurred, apparently trying another approach is a bit too radical. No wonder there is a problem.
 
Venus6971
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:55 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:29 pm

I wonder what would happen if there was a serious effort to decriminalize and legalize the drugs so the feds and states can regulate and tax it. You could probably see a all out war on the legislators and their families and friends by the cartels who whould lose billions if they started to bring this to a vote. Also remember that most meth comes from Mexico now due to the states cutting down on how much of the ingredients you can buy from a hardware or drug store.
I agree with most on this thread that weak minded waste of human sperm individuals who use this crap are the reason for large amount of the senseless violence.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10446
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:07 pm

The major problem with Mexico and most of the Central and South American countries is the hold over from the colonial systems under which they lived for so many centuries, namely the re-distribution of wealth. In most cases, the country itself has thriving economies, however, it is controlled by so few that the sayings that the rich get richer and the poor poorer are evident everywhere you go. The comparison to Pakistan if any can be made would simply be that there are / were areas of the country especially in the border region where the official law and order was neglected and the drug lords flourished.

Yes there is a crime problem, and law and order must be established, but if nothing is done to empower folks to provide for themselves and their families over and above "begging" the problem will rise again, unless you create a dictatorship or police state. Noth Korea is definately poorer than Mexico, but they have no drug cartels running areas and causing havoc.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8587
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:48 pm

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 7):

As long as the Amy Winehouses, Paris Hiltons, and Lindsay Lohans of the world keep that powder flowing into their noses while just getting a slap on the wrist (if that), the cartels will continue to thrive.



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 13):
I agree with most on this thread that weak minded waste of human sperm individuals who use this crap are the reason for large amount of the senseless violence.

Legalize it, and let the people who create the demand deal with the issues their choices bring them. It's not fair to have DEA agents, local police, and innocent people everywhere who get caught in between and die at the hands of cartels while we (and the victims of the drug war in their lifetime) spend billions of dollars helping drug addicts.

[Edited 2009-03-10 09:51:15]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22992
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:52 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):
If you smoke this stuff you are part of the "food chain" pure and simple. If traffickers are killing people to control the marijuana distribution chain to the end user marijuana is part of the problem. Sure a lot of it is grown in the U.S, but much is still smuggled.

Let's compare tequila. Made from the agave plant found in Mexico, tequila is legal in both countries. It is taxed and regulated in the United States, but there are no cartels killing people over tequila. As alcohol, it kills people either by destroying internal organs or by drunk driving. Let's substitute marijuana. If it is legalized in the United States, what possible reason would there be for cartels to smuggle it across from Mexico? If we want to strike up a doobie, we could just go down to the corner store and get a few. No fuss, no muss. Growers in the United States would get a cut, the state would get a cut, the feds would get a cut. How many people who only smoke pot are involved in crashes? Every time I have heard about crashes around here involving someone under the influence, the one who caused the accident sometimes has pot in their system, but also something else like alcohol, meth, or some form of cocaine.

Don't get me wrong. I do not smoke pot. I refuse. I have never gotten that euphoric feeling from it. I just get paranoid and feel like I am going to die. But, I have been around enough people that only smoke pot that I feel there is no good reason for it to be illegal.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10446
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:55 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
Legalize it, and let the people who create the demand deal with the issues their choices bring them

Other option is to legalize in your country, main thing preventing that so far is US financial aid, but if you are loosing your country, what good is the aid, would certainely be good for US tourist traffic into your country.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8587
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:06 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 17):

Never mind aid, this is only speculation but I don't doubt there would be plenty of diplomatic issues. Not just with the U.S., but probably sanctions from the EU and UN as well that would hurt us pretty bad. So no, without this coming from either the US or the EU I don't see it happening.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Charles79
Posts: 1119
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:35 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:23 pm



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Is the answer to legalize certain drug's usage in the United States?

Not sure if that would help that much. In the US the only drug that really has a chance of being legalized is pot, and as posters have already mentioned the biggest problem is not pot but rather cocaine.

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Or should the U.S. fully militarize the border region and be prepared to "prop up" the Mexican government should it need to be protected against an all-out assault by the drug-lords?

I know the situation is grave but I don't think the Mexican government is on the "brink" of disaster. If anything we shouldn't wait for it to fail but send help in now in the form of UAVs, Intel officers, and advisors to help the local authorities. As a member of NAFTA it would be futile for the US to let its southern neighbor collapse, and as StatsisLAX rightly points out there are thousands of US Citizens residing in the country.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
And the fact that Mexico and central American governments are totally incapable of curing their social ills are part of the problem.

That is true but he has a very valid point. The bulk of the demand for these drugs comes from the US, and regardless of whether we think they should be legalized or not the fact remains that they are ILLEGAL and our residents don't realize that their support for them is costing human lives. I find it highly hypocritical from our part to point the finger at Mexico when it is our own rich white suburban kids who are buying this sh*t (and I'm not talking about pot). The longer we continue to ignore our contribution to this war with money and weapons the more it will come to bite us in the rear end, and it's already happening as the violence is spilling over the border. We have blood on our hands, and it sickens me to no end that our Hollywood celebrities, highly paid professionals, and college kids keep snorting the white stuff as if it was "trendy".
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8587
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:28 pm



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 19):
Not sure if that would help that much. In the US the only drug that really has a chance of being legalized is pot, and as posters have already mentioned the biggest problem is not pot but rather cocaine.

Legalize cocaine, heroin, etc.

Sounds crazy? Crazy is what's knocking at your door.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
slider
Posts: 7640
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:48 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
Mexico is an embarrassment. For a country that sits above rich oil reserves and next door to one of the largest consumption economies in the world, they have been able to do nothing with these opportunities. It's as poor and corrupt today as it was a hundred years ago and a hundred years before that.



Quoting Par13del (Reply 14):
The major problem with Mexico and most of the Central and South American countries is the hold over from the colonial systems under which they lived for so many centuries, namely the re-distribution of wealth. In most cases, the country itself has thriving economies, however, it is controlled by so few that the sayings that the rich get richer and the poor poorer are evident everywhere you go.

Spot on by both of you. Time to quit being PC about our neighbors south of the border. The country is a disaster.

Both of these observations you make are correct…it’s inconceivable how stark and wide the differences are between the US and Mexico.

Illegal immigration is a scourge on our nation but few talk about the vacuum left in many small towns throughout Mexico where the able-bodied men have left altogether. Law enforcement is non-existent. And our response has been akin to buying an alcoholic a drink, instead of working to truly influence reform in that country from within and assist like-minded liberty-focused and free market advocates.
 
User avatar
2707200X
Posts: 6626
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:31 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:50 pm

I would say that the cities on the border on the Mexican side are in some ways failed cities with corrupt city officials and police departments but I would not call the country as a whole a failing state but certainly a troubled state.
"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
 
sr117
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 2:00 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:57 pm

Wasn't this thread deleted not long ago due to the fact that it was ridiculous then and is still ridiculous now? It's much akin to asking "Is capitalism dead?" or "Is the earth doomed?" Both valid questions but simply too sensationalistic in delivery for a civilized discussion.

Quoting Slider (Reply 21):
Spot on by both of you. Time to quit being PC about our neighbors south of the border. The country is a disaster.

Bingo ! All of you guys should really go and work for the Foreign Service Department, or maybe write for the Economist or the Financial Times.. Your ability to grasp and digest complicated matters is uncanny  Wink

I say you hunker down before the decay seeps into your country and we make you just as corrupt and inept as we are.

On another related note, this week's economist has a rather interesting report that seems to be put together by folks with more than a few neurons in their heads, much more of a worthwhile read than the report quoted by the opening poster.

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13234157
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:16 pm

"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8587
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:20 pm



Quoting SR117 (Reply 23):
I say you hunker down before the decay seeps into your country and we make you just as corrupt and inept as we are.

 checkmark 

And it's already happening. Look at the "militarization" of police forces in the U.S.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10446
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:35 pm



Quoting SR117 (Reply 23):
I say you hunker down before the decay seeps into your country and we make you just as corrupt and inept as we are.

We had our share here in the Bahamas, as the article states, the route used to be island hopping via the Caribbean, take a look at where I am on the map.  Smile

Quoting SR117 (Reply 23):
On another related note, this week's economist has a rather interesting report that seems to be put together by folks with more than a few neurons in their heads, much more of a worthwhile read than the report quoted by the opening poster.

Pretty good article, which was probably deisgned mainly by some law enforcement officer, it speaks volumes towards the enforcement not much towards the other issues. Example, the US is presently being critized for having the largest prison population in the developed world, how many of those persons are there for drug offenses? That becomes the big rub, put in place laws and enforce them, results is massive prisons which you can always get funds for, problem is after folks get out of prison what do they do, farming for normal crops do not cut it, especially if one is used to making a few thousand dollars on a single trip.

You are correct, it is a complicated issue and the easy battle is law enforcement, the drug war came just in time to take up the slack left by the end of the cold war, go figure.
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:36 pm



Quoting SR117 (Reply 23):
this week's economist has a rather interesting report t

And the last paragraph should give everyone pause:

Quote:
In the end, the state in a country as developed as Mexico cannot lose this battle. “Mexico is not a failed state, it’s a mediocre state,” says Hector Aguilar Camín, a sociologist. But already there are signs that the drug business will adapt. The Mexican gangs have set up operations in South America and are starting to export to Europe from there, according to Stratfor, a consultancy based in Texas. And they have moved aggressively into Central America. Just like Colombia, Mexico is finding that drug violence is requiring it to modernise its security forces. That process carries a large human cost. And the drug business, ever supple, will adapt and survive.

"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:48 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 24):
Here's an alternative worth pursuing....

Just keep hoping nobody makes synfuels illegal.  angel 
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:19 pm

Another article, this time from the associated press.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090310/...am_ca/lt_mexico_struggling_cartels

Quote:
MEXICO CITY – Headless bodies in Tijuana, kidnapped children in Phoenix and shootouts on the streets of Vancouver: These are the unwanted byproducts of progress in the Mexican drug war.

While the headline-grabbing chaos creates the appearance of a drug trade escalating out of control, evidence suggests Mexico's cartels are increasingly desperate due to a cross-border crackdown and a shift in the cocaine market from the U.S. to Europe.

Those pressures are forcing Mexico's criminal networks, once accustomed to shipping drugs quietly and with impunity, to wage ever more violent battles over scraps and diversify into other criminal enterprises, including extortion and kidnapping for ransom on both sides of the U.S. border.

"This is not reflecting the power of these groups," Attorney General Eduardo Medina Mora told The Associated Press in an interview. "This is reflecting how they are melting down in terms of capabilities, how they are losing the ability to produce income."

As evidence of that pressure, the U.S. government says the amount of cocaine seized on U.S. soil dropped by 41 percent between early 2007 and mid-2008. Reduced supply is said to have raised street prices by nearly a third to about $125 a gram in the U.S. and lowered purity by more than 15 percent. Both the U.S. and Canadian governments are even seeing prolonged shortages of cocaine.

"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
NIKV69
Posts: 13903
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:23 pm



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 4):
There is also a large number (400,000 to 500,000) of American retirees that reside in Mexico for all or most of the year. There needs to be an exit plan for these Americans

Well if they have citizenship in the US they can go through the proper checkpoints. I doubt they are going to try to hop the fence, no?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
Well we haven't had a plan for the huge number of Mexican citizens who actually did cross our border illegally in the last quarter century, what would give you hope now

Oh we have one, but the far left whacks and sanctuary cities undermine it. In this case though we are talking more of a refugee thing if the country becomes unstable and that has to be addressed.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
Legalize cocaine, heroin, etc.

Sounds crazy? Crazy is what's knocking at your door.

Legalize it all, gambling, hookers and all drugs and tax it! It creates jobs, revenue and kills the cartels. For some reason we still love to waste taxpayer money on fighting drugs and hookers and we have accomplished nothing.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 13013
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:25 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 30):
For some reason we still love to waste taxpayer money on fighting drugs and hookers and we have accomplished nothing.

I've never been in so much agreement with you on anything. Hear, hear!  highfive 
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Topic Author
Posts: 2968
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:46 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 30):
Well if they have citizenship in the US they can go through the proper checkpoints. I doubt they are going to try to hop the fence, no?

Not if these citizens never reach the border because they've been assassinated or kidnapped first by the narco-gangbangers.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
NIKV69
Posts: 13903
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:26 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 31):
I've never been in so much agreement with you on anything. Hear, hear!

Hey I am not that far right!  biggrin  I love how in NY it is legal to blow the rent on an animal because the state takes their 25% and it employs people BUT you have to go underground to play poker to a place that gets pinched every 4 to 5 months.  confused  Legalize it! Tax it! Do the same with casinos! It helps the economy! Creates jobs and generates revenue and saves money with law enforcement. Same with prostitution. I mean it's absolute lunacy that we spend the money we do and it does nothing to stem the flow of it. Kind of like how Obama is throwing good money at bad.  crazy 
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:48 am

I am thoroughly disturbed by the comments by many of you, but at the same time I see some informed comments. Here's my take, and bear in mind I lived in (and still frequently visit) Mexico as an American expatriate for a very very long time

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Or is there any truth behind the assertion that Mexico is descending into Somalia-style chaos?

It's the media blowing up things as always.

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
while Mexico pays in both loss of their citizens (and foreigners) lives and in economic activity (like tourism) that could bring some level of lasting peace and prosperity to Mexico.

Mexico is now more prosper and peaceful than ever. If you think now it's bad, look back in the history books, not even 100 years ago, into the Mexican Revolution/Porfirio Diaz and that era. Now THAT was a mess.

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Or should the U.S. fully militarize the border region and be prepared to "prop up" the Mexican government should it need to be protected against an all-out assault by the drug-lords?

It seems plenty militarized to me nowadays. The CBP is coming more and more militarized.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 4):

There needs to be an exit plan for these Americans, if needed. They certainly won't all fit in the local U.S. consulate....

The reason they are still living there is because they feel safe. I have not seen a mass exodus at all and I doubt it will happen anytime soon.

Quoting Derico (Reply 1):

What is going on, and I know little but just my powers of deduction, is Mexican authorities are actually confronting the drug lords, and the drug lords are confronting themselves. This creates a massive smoke screen that gives the impression things are spiraling out of control, and yes, in some ways they have.

That pretty much sums it up. While previous administrations have done (tried?) a lot to eradicate the problem, Calderon's is the first one ever to actually go as far as to almost literally declare war on the drug lords and his administration is really dropping the hammer on the issue which is nothing any other administration before can say. Call me crazy but the fact that we hear so much about the issue is a good thing because it means all the drug lords are actually going apeshit since for the first time ever in Mexico their existence is threatened and, obviously, they won't go down without putting up a fight.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):

Given the splendid success of recent invasions...

Yeah really  Yeah sure It would be stupid for the US to just jump into Mexico and start taking care of things with nobodies permission. We already created a big enough of a clusterf*ck in the middle east and other places we shouldn't have stuck our noses in to. While the Mexican population respects the US and looks up to us for many things, they do like to have their sovereignty respected, just like any other country. The last thing we need is to have our closest neighbor turn into a grumpy neighbor, or even worse, an enemy.

Now, if Mexico was to specifically ASK for military help from the US and what not, then by all means, let them have it.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):

Certainly Pakistan and Mexico are two of the largest failing states by population,

No. Not by a long shot. Not in Mexico's case at least

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
It's as poor and corrupt today as it was a hundred years ago and a hundred years before that.

 banghead  That comment is so blatantly inaccurate and ignorant I don't know where to start.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 14):
In most cases, the country itself has thriving economies, however, it is controlled by so few that the sayings that the rich get richer and the poor poorer are evident everywhere you go.

The economic gap between rich and poor has never been as good as it is nowadays, and its been like this for at least 30 years. There is a thriving middle class which almost outnumbers the rich and poor combined.

Quoting Slider (Reply 21):
Spot on by both of you. Time to quit being PC about our neighbors south of the border. The country is a disaster.

Illegal immigration is a scourge on our nation but few talk about the vacuum left in many small towns throughout Mexico where the able-bodied men have left altogether.

Law enforcement is non-existent.

And our response has been akin to buying an alcoholic a drink, instead of working to truly influence reform in that country from within and assist like-minded liberty-focused and free market advocates.

Jesus f'in christ dude!  eyepopping   banghead  Do you even have a clue as to the location of Mexico? Have you ever left your backyard? Ever opened a history book?

With those comments, and plenty of others I've read from you just blatantly and ignorantly hating on Mexico whenever you get a chance, I think it's safe to say you're the type that pictures Mexico like the typical racist cartoon depiction: a Mexican napping at the base of a cactus with his burro tied to it and a bottle of tequila.

Yes, the whole country is like that  Yeah sure  banghead 

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 22):
I would say that the cities on the border on the Mexican side are in some ways failed cities with corrupt city officials and police departments but I would not call the country as a whole a failing state but certainly a troubled state.

I second that. Border cities are crap, but the rest of the country is no way in hell as bad as the border towns.

Quoting SR117 (Reply 23):
Wasn't this thread deleted not long ago due to the fact that it was ridiculous then and is still ridiculous now?

And it's still being made more ridiculous by the usual trolls.  Yeah sure
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Topic Author
Posts: 2968
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:11 am

Several responses above seem to think that it's the American press that is fueling the "failed state" story. I've provided several links below that give the perspectives of both American and Mexican officials and journalists. They all seem to agree that the Mexican government is potentially quite instable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/04/op...?_r=3&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=69742

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090309...xicofrancediplomacy_20090309044507

http://www.theweek.com/article/index/92337/Mexicos_failed_state_threat

http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/article.aspx?id=2225

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...009/jan/23/machiavelli-and-mexico/
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:35 am

There is only one solution that would be effective.

As troops are brought back from Iraq they should be placed in new military bases built in southern border states with stimulus money. This will give us new jobs and provide a security force that will seal off the border.

Our military has 5 years of desert warfare under their belt and should be extremely effective at stopping illegal immigrants and drug smugglers crossing the border. If all 140,000 troops were put utilized along the border that would be 71.1 soldiers per mile or one every 74 feet.

Getting serious about our border problem will only help us in the long term. With estimates of over 13 million illegal immigrants in this country; finding and deporting them with an effective means of preventing re-entry would be great for job creation.

I only have one more comment in regards to Mexico's problem that perturbs me. I am moderately well traveled and I have been to both Mexico and Colombia numerous times. I have been on the border and to D.F. in both poor and rich neighborhoods.

I have never seen such blatant corruption and general distrust and fear of the police as I have in Mexico. It is almost as if there is a culture of corruption in Mexico. While the people are very nice and good people (don't get me wrong), it just seems that greasing someone's palms is the norm. That to me is the problem, and shipping the poor north and making it 'someone else's problem' will never change the country for the better.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:41 am



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):

The fact that it is illegal, in demand, and being smuggled makes it part of the problem.

Pot is a very minor part of any smuggling. California grows a majority of the US marijuana and then there is a bunch coming down from Vancouver. Any attempt to use marijuana in an argument about Mexico proves ignorance of the matter. They make far more money smuggling much denser drugs.

Have you ever smoked Mexican weed? Very inferior and mostly considered garbage, even 20 years ago.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:44 am



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 34):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):

Given the splendid success of recent invasions...

Yeah really Yeah sure It would be stupid for the US to just jump into Mexico and start taking care of things with nobodies permission. We already created a big enough of a clusterf*ck in the middle east and other places we shouldn't have stuck our noses in to. While the Mexican population respects the US and looks up to us for many things, they do like to have their sovereignty respected, just like any other country. The last thing we need is to have our closest neighbor turn into a grumpy neighbor, or even worse, an enemy.

Er yes, that is exactly what
Given the splendid success of recent invasions, maybe the US would do better by looking to sorting out its own internal problems that tend to exacerbate problems in Mexico - such as both drug and gun policies.
means - together with a couple of suggestions as to how to ease Mexico's problems.

As to whether Pakistan and Mexico are failing, they both have major problems but represent entirely different kinds of problem. Mexico has a problem of a large mass living in poverty with very asymmetric wealth distribution. A long war of liberation was followed by prolonged civil strife (war) and unhappily effective government was accompanied by "huge economic inequality and political repression". Economic growth in the 90s does not seem to have gone far to remove the economic inequality and this remains a basic source of instability. The drug cartel problem is superimposed on that existing serious problem and it appears that the cartel wars are being fought largely with weapons imported from the north. So that the US is the source of the drug industry (they are the customers) and are arming the combatants.

Curiously enough there ARE parallels with Pakistan.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 13903
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:45 am



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 34):
It's the media blowing up things as always.

To a point but you can't deny that things are degenerating quickly there.

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 34):
Mexico is now more prosper and peaceful than ever. If you think now it's bad, look back in the history books, not even 100 years ago, into the Mexican Revolution/Porfirio Diaz and that era. Now THAT was a mess.

Your being naive, this is a different animal all together, and it's not good.

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 34):
That pretty much sums it up. While previous administrations have done (tried?) a lot to eradicate the problem, Calderon's is the first one ever to actually go as far as to almost literally declare war on the drug lords and his administration is really dropping the hammer on the issue which is nothing any other administration before can say. Call me crazy but the fact that we hear so much about the issue is a good thing because it means all the drug lords are actually going apeshit since for the first time ever in Mexico their existence is threatened and, obviously, they won't go down without putting up a fight.

Actually what is happening is the drug cartels are letting everyone know that any intervention will be met by Al Qaida like tactics like beheading and torture, kidnapping and the like.

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 34):
Jesus f'in christ dude! Do you even have a clue as to the location of Mexico? Have you ever left your backyard? Ever opened a history book?

Sounds like you should go walk the border in south Texas or AZ and tell us what you see.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Topic Author
Posts: 2968
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:53 am

Five severed heads have been found inside ice coolers by the side of a road in Mexico, police say.

A police patrol made the grim find in the central state of Jalisco, on a road leading to the city of Guadalajara.

The heads were found with messages addressed to rivals of the killers, who were assumed to be involved in Mexico's bitter and violent drug war.

Jalisco is close to Sinaloa state, scene of many high-profile killings and home to the powerful Sinaloa cartel.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7936115.stm
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
User avatar
TheRedBaron
Posts: 3276
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:02 am

There are a lot of severed head in Mexico each day because we have a lot of Jedi Knights and they use their laser swords.

I love when people like to see their neighbour problems instead of looking at their own.

OMG Mexico is failing !!!
But heck who cares if Joe and Jane Doe Teenagers buy tons of drugs and get high in my living room....

OMG Everyday those pesky Mexicans kill and kidnap thousands, while the US is hemorraging billions each day in Irak and getting people killed for no reason...

Hey nobodys perfect and Mexico is not perfect, but at least we have much better food that most countries and a long long history behind us, some things most other countries cannot brag about.
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:59 am



Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 41):
There are a lot of severed head in Mexico each day because we have a lot of Jedi Knights and they use their laser swords.

I love when people like to see their neighbour problems instead of looking at their own.

Its getting to the point that it is becoming our problem.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10446
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:45 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
So that the US is the source of the drug industry (they are the customers) and are arming the combatants.

Curiously enough there ARE parallels with Pakistan.

If they did not have US made weapons they would be using AK-47's, the weapons of choice of insurgents and criminal elements for many decades. What is interesting is that they are beheading people, that is certainely not a tactic used in the US so not imported from there, maybe US officials see this type of violence and wonder if its just the tactic that was imported or the persons.
 
User avatar
TheRedBaron
Posts: 3276
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:08 pm



Quoting UAL777 (Reply 42):
Its getting to the point that it is becoming our problem.

You are wrong my friend.

Its not becoming "your" problem.

its a "We" Problem, You are also the problem.

Would there be drug cartels in Mexico if there were NO demand in the USA?

BTW yesterday we got like 6 heads in Jalisco and today You had a wacko kill people in Alabama, so I guess everyone has its problems....I could blame the USA as easily as being the provider for guns and ammo for the druglords, hey your gun happy country has become OUR problem...


BTW I guess if we use the same method the media uses to sensationalize everything we could make the following statement:

The USA has 100% more deadly shootings than Mexico, based on yesterdays news. (we know its not true but in the caso of Alabama and Jalisco IT WOULD BE)

Best Regards

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
slider
Posts: 7640
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:27 pm



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 34):
With those comments, and plenty of others I've read from you just blatantly and ignorantly hating on Mexico whenever you get a chance, I think it's safe to say you're the type that pictures Mexico like the typical racist cartoon depiction: a Mexican napping at the base of a cactus with his burro tied to it and a bottle of tequila.

That’s right. When you can’t argue the point on the merits, just throw the racism grenade….yawn.

I don’t hate Mexico. If I did, I wouldn’t even expend the effort to give a crap about why it’s failing and why it’s failures are causing so much collateral damage to my nation. As a Texan especially, I have an obvious vested interest and have seen firsthand the consequences of the culture of ingrained generational failed politics in Mexico. It goes beyond the drug war, which seems to be the thing most are grabbing onto in this thread. It’s economic policy, it’s politics, it’s government on many levels that have all failed repeatedly. I cited the illegal immigration issue and how so few seem to recognize that it’s a crisis for Mexico as much if not more than it is for the USA. Where’s the care from people about that?

But if you think painting people as racists to cover for your own refusal to see facts is a good M.O., so be it.
 
AM744
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:05 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:47 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
Mexico is an embarrassment. For a country that sits above rich oil reserves and next door to one of the largest consumption economies in the world, they have been able to do nothing with these opportunities. It's as poor and corrupt today as it was a hundred years ago and a hundred years before that.

It's a remarkable coincidence that you mention it. Exactly 99 years ago the Mexican Revolution took place and 199 years ago the War of Independence. Blood has been shed, and yes, it has been worth it. Has MY family benefitted from those events all the while not being elite members? Yes.

Just to put a little perspective on the discussion. The only countries in the world with more than 100 million inhabitants and higher quality of life than Mexico as measured by UN's Human Development Index are: the United States and Japan. Being big AND rich is extremely difficult. Entropy at its best. The mere fact that Mexico has the same quality of life than Costa Rica while being hundreds of times bigger and more complex speaks for itself.

As for the "sitting on rich oil reserves thing" statement. We only export half of it, we need the other half. All in all oil is important, but not that much, and only the US and probably Canada produce more and are richer.

I do concede though, that there is a significant untapped potential, and the reason is:

Quoting Slider (Reply 21):
Law enforcement is non-existent.

Ah, the root of everything.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
Mexico has a problem of a large mass living in poverty with very asymmetric wealth distribution.

I won't deny that we don't have a first world style wealth distribution. But even so, our Gini Index is closer to that of the US than that of Brazil.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
Economic growth in the 90s does not seem to have gone far to remove the economic inequality and this remains a basic source of instability.

Inestability is being caused by a lack of law enforcement, not by poverty. If you want the easy way, you go walk to the US border or become a car jacker OR you could attend school and try to make an honest living. Which can absolutely be done. Granted, it's harder, but no person dies here of hunger.

(Disclaimer: This applies to 95% of the population, I can think of some marginal communities that have it really tough, but they are by no means the norm. I guess it's a case akin to Australian, Canadian or American aboriginals)

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
Curiously enough there ARE parallels with Pakistan.

Are you comparing a lay state with no civil war nor dictatorships for 100 years, the second commercial partner of the US and 11th economy of the world with Pakistan?
(aside from France and a handful of other states, you'll be hard pressed to find a country where this state-church separation is as clear)
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:14 pm



Quoting AM744 (Reply 46):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
Curiously enough there ARE parallels with Pakistan.

Are you comparing a lay state with no civil war nor dictatorships for 100 years, the second commercial partner of the US and 11th economy of the world with Pakistan?
(aside from France and a handful of other states, you'll be hard pressed to find a country where this state-church separation is as clear)

You can have differences at the same time as having parallels and I should have extended the sentence. Among the differences are those you mention, others include in no particular order conditions for agriculture and the oil reserves. Agriculture is especially significant, it moulds attitudes in ways we tend to forget.

A significant parallel is the development of the cartels in Mexico and the terrorist gangs in Pakistan. They have different origins and very different aims, but have used some similar methods and both have undermined central government. A major difference is the level of government assistance given by Pakistan to their terrorists compared with the cartels in Mexico. A convergence has appeared as both are using drug "exports" to the west to support themselves.

I really do not know much about Mexico, but I do think the poor there could be a more significant factor than you are seeming to allow AM744. Any country with some democracy and a large mass of poor will have that democracy influenced as almost an unseen force by the poor.

The lack of law enforcement, IIUC is associated with the extent of corruption and I suppose that for example police corruption relates to low public service wages and the usual concatenation of the effects of that. Again, poverty becomes a factor.

However, I at least am happy to be educated about Mexico. So educate away.  chat 
 
captaink
Posts: 4010
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:17 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 21):
Illegal immigration is a scourge on our nation but few talk about the vacuum left in many small towns throughout Mexico where the able-bodied men have left altogether. Law enforcement is non-existent.

Have you ever been to Mexico? Because you aren't talking like someone who has.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
Mexico is an embarrassment. For a country that sits above rich oil reserves and next door to one of the largest consumption economies in the world, they have been able to do nothing with these opportunities.

The 12th biggest economy in the world, the US second biggest trader? Why do you people absorb everything CNN feeds you.

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 34):

I second that. Border cities are crap, but the rest of the country is no way in hell as bad as the border towns.

People seem to be more afraid in the US, that I am here. I have been living in Mexico for the past 4 years, and I have never had a problem. I lived close to Mexico City before, and yes Mexico City is a huge city with many security problems, but not as rampant as people imagine. The place has 20 million inhabitants for god sake. I take the subway at night and walk around, obviously not in known problem areas, exactly how I would operate if I was in NY. Mexico City is a little more dangerous that NY, let me clarify, but still it isn't what people think.

Now I live in the central city of Aguascalientes, and it is a city that is having a drug related problem. How? In the last 2 years ever so often there is some police raid. Now that is what is supposed to happen. Mexico has a drug trafficking problem, but the killings are for the most part staying within those bounds. It is turning into a war in some ways between police, cartels and other corrupt figures in between. But such is life. It is a very complicated matter to resolve. But comparing Mexico to Pakistan, Somalia, have you all smoked the pot being shipped across the border?

P.S. Mexico is a nice place to live in, it is a different culture but I have nothing bad to say about the country, on the contrary, I really do like being here.

The media loves to sensationalize everything, so now it would seem to many north of the border that it is a war zone down here. How absolutely silly of you.
Look Up
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Is Mexico Becoming A "Failed State"?

Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:44 pm



Quoting Captaink (Reply 48):
I really do like being here.

Thanks Captaink, great to have first hand information. Dare I ask the big question, how would you start fixing corruption? Because that is the key link to get the system working. In asking this, I am acutely aware that most of the criticism of "corrupt" countries comes from those living in countries that are not exactly free from corruption EITHER! And that applies to Australia before someone asks.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 28 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos