haggis79
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:48 pm



Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 24):
My full belief - Genesis 1:1.

which of the two versions? The one where man came first, or the one where man came last?  Wink

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 28):

 checkmark 

exactly my sentiments...
300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
 
Arniepie
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:10 pm



Quoting GDB (Reply 46):
The Solar System is NOT the center of the universe? Do you believe it?

I certainly don't believe it and furthermore I have good proof of it.
My GF just told me a while ago that she suspects that "the universe revolves around my ass" so from now on I choose to take this as fact.
[edit post]
 
David L
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:13 pm



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 49):
If you ask the church I'm pretty sure they'd beg to differ.

True - but they can only do so because that logic becomes "inappropriate" in religious matters.  duck 
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:14 pm



Quoting ArniePie (Reply 51):
Quoting GDB (Reply 46):
The Solar System is NOT the center of the universe? Do you believe it?

I certainly don't believe it and furthermore I have good proof of it.
My GF just told me a while ago that she suspects that "the universe revolves around my ass" so from now on I choose to take this as fact.

It's fully possible, depending on how big her ass is.  devil   stirthepot 
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
ALexeu
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:22 pm

Evolution is a fairytale.

Airliners.net did evolution tough. It has changed it's background few times. And the image gallery also evolutionized from 1 photo to over a million.
 
Arniepie
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:31 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 53):
t's fully possible, depending on how big her ass is. devil stirthepot

Now I'm thinking of it, it must have some gravitational pull, I'm always seem to be attrackted by it.
 butthead   hypnotized 
[edit post]
 
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Tugger
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:47 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 54):
Evolution is a fairytale.

Interesting! I had not heard the repeatable, verifiable evidence of evolution's failure as an established and tested theory. Can you please elaborate so I can test the new theory? Many thanks!

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
jonjonnl
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:52 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 41):
Humans ARE APES.

Well I understand what you're trying to say, but you also know that's not an accurate statement. Humans are primates just like apes, chimpanzees, gorillas and so on. And indeed, we have not evolved from apes; all primates have evolved from a single ancestor and some, like chimpanzees are closer to us than others (like gorillas).

And the 97% DNA similarity does not say much either since we share a similar amount of DNA with fruit flies! Apparently, a very low percentage of DNA determines a very different outcome in terms of physical appearance!

Anyway, I don't like to discuss science with 'puritan' creationists because more often than not our words are taken out of context and used against us. I have colleagues who were unfortunate enough to give bona fide interviews and lectures to such persons and their words ended up edited on youtube as evidence for creationism. Bill Hay, an emeritus geologist whom I have the pleasure to know, for instance, is quoted on youtube as saying Islamic thought is right and that divine creation must have happened. That is not what he *actually* said.  no 
joão in ams
 
Arniepie
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:04 pm



Quoting BILL HICKS (Reply unknown):
You ever noticed how people who believe in Creationism look really unevolved? You ever noticed that? Eyes real close together, eyebrow ridges, big furry hands and feet. "I believe God created me in one day" Yeah, looks liked He rushed it.

[edit post]
 
Klaus
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:18 pm



Quoting Jonjonnl (Reply 36):
I'm a scientist and I can recommend you reading Kuhn's 'The structure of scientific revolutions.' Science is a lot about 'belief'. While we try to do our best to work with the so-called working hypotheses and to remain objective the truth is once we establish a paradigm, we stick to it until we can't anymore (and some - fortunately few - never 'release' the paradigm again, normally older scientists who've held it as true for their entire careers).

Science is definitely not about belief. Some scientists, however, don't really fulfill the criteria they should.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 54):
Evolution is a fairytale.

Maybe. The difference is that by comparison to other fairytales it makes precise and verifiable predictions of where to find unicorns and can actually produce and quantify the fairies. There aren't many fairytales with so much factual basis as this one, I'm afraid...
 
kalakaua
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:18 am

Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
geekydude
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:43 am

I remember Richard Dawkins once said something to the following effect. We are members of a jury of a trial. None of us have witnessed the crime take place. But we are presented with a huge wealth of evidence(and with each passing day, the evidence pile keeps increasing) that suggests evolution is the culprit, whereas nothing solid and verifiable points to creationism. Which one would you convict if you're rational and impartial?
FLIB 152 'heavy' low approach...Caution wake turbulance!
 
David L
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:19 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 59):
Science is definitely not about belief.

Belief can be a motivator to get things started and to perservere with a "hunch" to the point when the evidence transcends mere belief. There's nothing wrong with having a scientific belief, as long as it isn't regarded as the end of the story.
 
jonjonnl
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:21 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 59):
Science is definitely not about belief. Some scientists, however, don't really fulfill the criteria they should.

With all due respect, you clearly don't know what science is all about.
Science is based on sets of assumptions. Assumptions we cannot prove but guess in an educated way because they fit some sort of model we envisage that best explains our results. And models are simply that... models. Based on simplifications and on what we *believe* best approaches the real world.

The difference is that science avoids dogmas (we call them paradigms instead). In science, and ideally, one abandons a particular model as soon as this is falsified. This is often not the case. There are many examples of models that co-exist.
joão in ams
 
comorin
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:39 pm

Hi TRVYYZ,

I'll skip through all the posts as I think your question is really metaphysical.

First, Evolution is a physical phenomena that explains how species change - no more, no less. It is a scientifically observable fact.

Now the problem with understanding this concept arises on a few different fronts:

"The Fundas": All life is based on cell birth, sustenance and death. cells mutate randomly, and cells that adopt better live longer and generate new cells that are better. These new cells over time outnumber and make the bad cells obsolete. For this mechanism to be observable, you need large numbers and short lifetimes. Another "Funda" is that all is knowable is understandable to the human mind in its present form. Like someone in the 19th century making sense of Quantum Physics...

Entropy - it's difficult for a science guy to accept the spontaneous creation of order. My classmate, who chairs the Physics dept at Yale, patiently explained that the concept of Selection works even with Thermodynamics.

Watchmaker - Who thought of evolution? Is evolution just a tool for the cosmic force playing with us and 'Nature' Did it evolve as a cosmic 'Best Practice' ?

Purpose - Evolution explains cellular behavior but does not infuse it with the great human need to know Why. Science does not pretend to explain why the Universe exists, and Religion has been Man's best effort so far to answer that question.

Religion: Religion is the supposition of a God as an answer to the question "Why?" No more, no less. Evolution neither proves nor disproves Religion - one is a physical question and the other is a metaphysical question. You can be a bigoted Atheist as much as a bigoted Believer.

There's a whole lot of things we don't know yet about the Universe. Someday, we'll know about dark matter, singularities, parallel universes and time travel. But unlike 'Battlestar Galactica', we'll never know Why!

Cheers  wave 
 
757gb
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:57 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 28):
As a Christian, I'll sit here and tell you I believe in evolution. We've seen the evolution of species even within the last few hundred years. I don't see why evolution and religion cannot exist together. Even the Catholic Church now acknowledges evolution.

My honest opinion is some people interpret the Bible too literally.

 checkmark 

That's exactly what I think. Great post.
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
baroque
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:00 pm



Quoting Jonjonnl (Reply 63):
With all due respect, you clearly don't know what science is all about.

Ahem. With equal respect I suspect he rather does.

First, the discussion should be about the scientific method.

Second, a reasonable running definition of this is available from Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other methodologies of knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena, and design experimental studies to test these hypotheses. These steps must be repeatable in order to dependably predict any future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry may bind many hypotheses together in a coherent structure. This in turn may help form new hypotheses or place groups of hypotheses into context.

Multiple hypothesis is a perfectly valuable approach. The essential is testing the hypothesis and feed back from experimental observations to modify the hypothesis where it is not rejected.

Paradigm has a rather different use compared with hypothesis in context of the scientific method.
For a working example of the difference:
http://www.roma1.infn.it/~dagos/cern/node13.html

I suppose it is realised that science has moved on a bit from arguing about the basic concepts of Darwinism and is now looking at interesting concepts such as Steele's "reverse transcription of mRNA, followed by insertion of DNA into the chromosome" process. Arguably this is another method by which evolution can occur and is a blend of Lamarckian concepts with those of Darwin.

http://home.planet.nl/~gkorthof/kortho39.htm

Wiki can also help - as usual!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism
 
Klaus
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:30 pm



Quoting Jonjonnl (Reply 63):
With all due respect, you clearly don't know what science is all about.
Science is based on sets of assumptions. Assumptions we cannot prove but guess in an educated way because they fit some sort of model we envisage that best explains our results. And models are simply that... models. Based on simplifications and on what we *believe* best approaches the real world.

You're confusing two very distinct meanings of the ambiguous word "belief".

Religious belief has to do with the refusal to know and the replacement of research with emotionally/spiritually based a priori assumptions.

If a scientist uses the word, on the other hand, it is usually to express uncertainty about something which does not (yet) rise to the level of reliable verifiability, which is a completely different thing.

The word is quite ambiguous in this respect.
 
jonjonnl
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:57 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 66):
Ahem. With equal respect I suspect he rather does.

I see one of your hobbies is geology.
I'm a sedimentologist and I'll ask you one question:

The processes that shape the Earth today are the same that have shaped the Earth in the past. Can you prove this? Can we prove that uniformitarianism, ie. the basic principle of geology, is true?
Or do we believe in it for its usefulness in allowing us to study the past from the geologic record and be careful enough to accept its limitations and that there may be elements in the past that do not have present day analogues?

That's my point.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 67):
The word is quite ambiguous in this respect.

Indeed. I am obviously using the 'uncertainty'-related meaning but nevertheless you somehow accept things that aren't proven. It is however (and maybe I wasn't clear in this point) completely different from religious belief.
joão in ams
 
Klaus
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:38 pm



Quoting Jonjonnl (Reply 68):
Indeed. I am obviously using the 'uncertainty'-related meaning but nevertheless you somehow accept things that aren't proven.

Nothing in science is actually "proven", the entire solid framework is "just" stabilized by mathematical confidence levels and (preferably high) probabilities of theories being valid.

And I don't generally accept things as a given, I consider them likely/unlikely or consistent/inconsistent. That is a less comfortable but scientifically more sound approach than belief which by definition is the opposite of (constructive) doubt..

Quoting Jonjonnl (Reply 68):
It is however (and maybe I wasn't clear in this point) completely different from religious belief.

Indeed.
 
David L
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:00 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 66):

Yes, scientific method must not be swayed by prejudices and "beliefs". That's not the same as saying that belief has no place in science. Without belief, e.g. hunches, many scientific theories/laws would never see the light of day. The sin would be to treat a hunch, or belief, as a given fact and leave it at that or, even worse, discard the results of scientific method if they conflict with the hunch. The object of scientific method is to eliminate the dependence on that belief, or hunch.
 
808TWA
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:28 pm

I was brought up in a religious home. However, as I turned a teenager (many years ago) I started questioning many of the so-called "beliefs" that were being preached. When the minister/pastor was unable to adequately explain to me some of the Bible's timelines etc, I started to distance myself from the whole "culture".

As an adult and after much research on the subject, I have to say that what the church taught on basic morals and the "don't steal, don't commit murder", etc etc was very wisely informed.

However, what the church taught on matters pertaining to how the world was created, was quite simply askew and without merit, especially since there is no "real" evidence of such type of creation being possible, except in the fact that you should have "faith" in what the Bible states.

I do believe in evolution within species. However, I don't believe that evolution can jump species such as a fish to a cow. I also don't believe in the "big bang theory"....the minute chances of everything just happening at the right time, seems unfathomably remote.

How this living planet was created is a complete mystery within my mind. But, long after I have left this planet, I'm sure it will be figured out and everyone will say "oh????....ah!!!!!!!....of course, why didn't we think of that before now, it all makes sense".

When I arrive "upstairs" and if there is indeed a higher being or a place of eternal rest called Heaven and if I have lead a good enough life to warrant entrance to this place......I'll drop you all a text message and let you know what the "big guy" says.
Love is in the air, so practice safe flying
 
David L
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:40 pm



Quoting 808TWA (Reply 71):
However, I don't believe that evolution can jump species such as a fish to a cow

Nor does anyone who knows anything about evolution. There are rules.  Smile

Quoting 808TWA (Reply 71):
I also don't believe in the "big bang theory"....the minute chances of everything just happening at the right time, seems unfathomably remote.

But the chances weren't minute. If the Big Bang Theory is correct, there was pretty much no other possibility. The debate is about whether there was just one or the last one was the consequence of a Big Crunch, as the previous universe collapsed on itself, preceded by an earlier Big Bang... and so on.
 
ALexeu
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:44 pm

What kind of evolution are we talking about? Flyer No.1 revolutionized into Airbus A380.
But I can't accept that my ancestors were monkeys!

[Edited 2009-03-20 13:46:24]
 
Klaus
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:57 pm



Quoting 808TWA (Reply 71):
I do believe in evolution within species. However, I don't believe that evolution can jump species such as a fish to a cow.

Nor does anybody else. That's not what the evolution principle says.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:13 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 70):
Yes, scientific method must not be swayed by prejudices and "beliefs". That's not the same as saying that belief has no place in science. Without belief, e.g. hunches, many scientific theories/laws would never see the light of day. The sin would be to treat a hunch, or belief, as a given fact and leave it at that or, even worse, discard the results of scientific method if they conflict with the hunch. The object of scientific method is to eliminate the dependence on that belief, or hunch.

Thus we have/had Newton and "the apple" and from that observation a hunch that lead to a theory being developed and tested. Hunch's and concepts and "belief" are often the progenitor to scientific exploration and theorizing.

Quoting David L (Reply 72):
Quoting 808TWA (Reply 71):
However, I don't believe that evolution can jump species such as a fish to a cow

Nor does anyone who knows anything about evolution. There are rules. Smile

Yes, fish can't have sex with cows and therefore can not give birth to one.   

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 73):
But I can't accept that my ancestors were monkeys!

Fear not! Evolutionary science does not "accept" that humans come from monkeys either! We just have common ancestors, way, way back when (5-7 million years ago).

Here's a nice place to get information on it:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071007132636AAECbmT

Tugg

[Edited 2009-03-20 14:15:48]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:36 am



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 73):
But I can't accept that my ancestors were monkeys!

i assume you accept that your ancestor was just "poof" made to appear? Do you accept that the earth is less than 10000 years old? if you accept these, why do you accept them?




How is it people can accept creationism based on a book and not accept evolution with scientific, repeatable evidence backing it up?
 
iairallie
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:46 am

I don't not believe in it though I believe evolution only occurs within species and that species do not evolve into other species. I also believe in creation. I don't proport to know what mechanisim the Creator used to create life. I don't believe creationism and evolution are mutually exclusive.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:57 am



Quoting Iairallie (Reply 77):
I don't not believe in it though I believe evolution only occurs within species and that species do not evolve into other species. I also believe in creation. I don't proport to know what mechanisim the Creator used to create life. I don't believe creationism and evolution are mutually exclusive.

why do you believe in creationism from species to species vs. evolution?
 
iairallie
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:17 am



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 78):
why do you believe in creationism from species to species vs. evolution?

I'm not sure what you are asking here your phrasing is really odd?

There is absolutely zero evidence that one species has evolved into a seperate and distinct species. Which is why I don't believe in interspecies evolution. Plenty of evidence to suggest it occurs within a species.

I believe that it is entirely possible our Creator used evolution as a tool to create seperate and distinct species.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:12 am



Quoting Iairallie (Reply 79):
I'm not sure what you are asking here your phrasing is really odd?

There is absolutely zero evidence that one species has evolved into a seperate and distinct species. Which is why I don't believe in interspecies evolution. Plenty of evidence to suggest it occurs within a species.

I believe that it is entirely possible our Creator used evolution as a tool to create seperate and distinct species.

I think you understood what i was asking.

what evidence do you have that makes you believe a creator used evolution as a tool to create separate and distinct species?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:56 am

You know what?

I'm sick of defending it.

It's a friggin' FACT. I'm over trying to reason with the unreasonable.

But if they try to get Bible stories inserted into Biology classes, I will fight them.  box 
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
David L
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:20 am



Quoting Iairallie (Reply 77):
I believe evolution only occurs within species and that species do not evolve into other species

This is a point that's often made. However the reality is that one species does not suddenly change into another. What happens is that a subset of a species starts to develope subtle mutations, often due to the local environment but often due to random genetic "mistakes". As the mutated group begins interbreeding the mutation becomes more dominant. As time goes by the differences between the groups becomes greater and greater and breeding between the two groups becomes less frequent. After a certain amount of time, e.g. a few thousand years, the differences are so great that we end up with two different species.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 75):
Evolutionary science does not "accept" that humans come from monkeys either! We just have common ancestors, way, way back when (5-7 million years ago).

 checkmark  We did not evolve from any species that is currently living. All of the primates, including us, evolved from a common species a long, long, ... long time ago, with several "branches" happening at different times. This business of us having evolved from monkeys or chimpanzees is little more than a tool to make the whole idea seem "preposterous".  Smile
 
Klaus
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:20 am



Quoting Iairallie (Reply 79):
There is absolutely zero evidence that one species has evolved into a seperate and distinct species.

Says who?

There is actually a massive amount of evidence for that all around. Millions of species and populations with a completely sliding scale between full interbreeding capability through sterile offspring to full incompatibility. Observation is fully consistent with what you'd expect from continuously evolving populations, with separated evolutions (spatial or by other means) shifting the respective genomes to the point where the separate populations can be called separate species eventually.

We can see all the expected stages of development in the species around us.

You are proposing an additional inconsistency which is simply not supported by evidence.
 
baroque
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:31 pm



Quoting Jonjonnl (Reply 68):
Can we prove that uniformitarianism, ie. the basic principle of geology, is true?

Not Avicenna, not James Hutton and not Lyell tried to prove uniformitarianism. However they did suggest that looking to present day processes as a key to those that had operated in the past was a useful way to proceed. It does not matter if it is true or not, it is a useful way to proceed. And of course aside from the principles of stratigraphy, one of the first things to come out of using uniformitarianism was to find occasions when conditions in the past differed from those operating today.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 81):
You know what?

I'm sick of defending it.

It's a friggin' FACT. I'm over trying to reason with the unreasonable.

Fair comment Doc. It might be a theory, but so many facts are so consistent with it having happened that this bleeding argument gets to be a bit like Thabo Mbeki arguing about you know what.

It is truly amazing that some of the folk who are irritating you Doc can sit back in apparent total ignorance of the detailed work on lineages on so many fossil groups. There is a whole science of biostratigraphy that apparently might as well not exist - for some.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teilzone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochron

From Arkell 1933, Jurassic system in Great Britain.

Big version: Width: 1944 Height: 1335 File size: 292kb
Diagram showing species change in time and space


The geological record is so detailed that for some species we know what they came from, what they evolved to, when they did it and where they went - literally in terms of geography. Most boizones in the Hettangian in the L Jurassic lasted less than half a million years so imagine that the biozone in the diagram would be less than half a million years.
 
AverageUser
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:39 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 83):

We can see all the expected stages of development in the species around us.

A stupid and common thing to ask, I know, but what are you expecting to actually emerge from life?
 
Continental
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:17 pm

I just think it's amazing that we share so many genes with yeast. It's just a few amino acids difference between some enzymes. To me, this was always the most profound evidence of evolution.
 
Klaus
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:21 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 85):
A stupid and common thing to ask, I know, but what are you expecting to actually emerge from life?

From the evolutionary principle it would follow that today we would see pretty much any possible degree of speciation, from barely distinguishable neighbouring populations to related but still clearly different and genetically incompatible ones.

It would further follow that the difference between the respective genomes would reflect the degree of relationship.

And even though Darwin had no idea about genetics — let alone DNA — his theory has been found to be spectacularly consistent even on the molecular level. We do in fact see the expected consistency and today we can even determine the degree of relationship not just between immediate family members (or between forensic samples), but also between us and the bacteria that make our wine or beer.

Genetics today also teaches us that incompatibility between species is not a fundamental thing but merely an incompatibility in a sufficient number of genes, which effectively eliminates the opportunity to draw a line between "micro" and "macro" evolution as creationists often attempt (see above).

Given that it is a major criterion for a successful scientific theory that it makes correct predictions about future discoveries, it doesn't get much better than that.
 
AverageUser
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:43 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 87):
we would see pretty much any possible degree of speciation

Hey, I'm now trying to get you back from the "lecture mode". What is the purpose of speciation? What is life trying to achieve by it? Do you reckon life has some sort of master plan?
 
baroque
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:11 am



Quoting Continental (Reply 86):
I just think it's amazing that we share so many genes with yeast. It's just a few amino acids difference between some enzymes. To me, this was always the most profound evidence of evolution.

Mmm, true but stay tuned as folk work out what at least some of the junk parts of DNA really do. The fat lady is not even warming up yet.

No takers on discussing Steele's proposals about reverse transcription???? Interesting character Steele, almost worth a thread on his own, especially in relation to standards in Universities. Any of you read Koestler's "The case of the Midwife toad"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kammerer

You can weave in biometrics, Tom Lehrer (Kammerer is thought to have had an affair with Alma Mahler Gropius Verfel) as well as finding that Darwin and Lamarck might not be in total conflict not to mention Tom Teacher.

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.n...r/DA50884731EAF2F848256A7D00256E43

Oh god, you can get Alma ringtones, that ruins it!

It's people like [Alma] that who make you realize how little you've accomplished. It is a sobering thought, for example, that when Mozart was my age he had been dead for two years. Tom Lehrer.
 
Klaus
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:59 am



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 88):
Hey, I'm now trying to get you back from the "lecture mode".

Okay... but when it's about questions which are based primarily on things that can be known it's sort of inevitable, especially when I've got relatively little time.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 88):
What is the purpose of speciation?

Purpose needs a mind pursuing it; Which is clearly why creation myths were — ahem — created.

From what we know it rather looks as if there's an inherent inevitability in life if the environmental circumstances permit it: Life means structures which can sustain and reproduce themselves, and in changing environments this has apparently led to only adaptable organisms surviving in the long run.

From that perspective there is no purpose in it — its just the species which adapt survive, the others don't. And one of them is retroactively projecting individual thoughts and emotions into developments which had nothing to do with that.

One thing that needs to be remembered: Any explanation will have to apply as well to all the species which have died out (or are currently in the process). The scientific explanation does, the mythological ones have major diffculties with that.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 88):
What is life trying to achieve by it?

Survive. Nothing else.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 88):
Do you reckon life has some sort of master plan?

No. Basic natural laws are perfectly sufficient to explain what we can see, if not yet in every detail.
 
David L
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:42 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 90):

I'm glad this came up. Another problem some doubters have is in understanding how a species "knows" that a mutation will be beneficial or how behaviour can influence evolution. Even Darwin, for a while, fell into the trap of suspecting that giraffes developed a long neck because they kept stretching up for the higher leaves.

The reality, though, is that random mutations happen; some are beneficial, some are detrimental and others make bugger all difference. A mutation that inhibits feeding, hiding or running from danger, breeding, staying alive in general, etc, makes it more likely that species will die out while a mutation that has the opposite effect makes it more likely that species will survive. In other words, it's just luck. Giraffes "accidentally" developed long necks and the fact that they were then able to eat the leaves from higher in the trees, thus not having to compete with other animals, didn't have a detrimental effect on their chances of survival.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:42 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 84):

It is truly amazing that some of the folk who are irritating you Doc can sit back in apparent total ignorance of the detailed work on lineages on so many fossil groups. There is a whole science of biostratigraphy that apparently might as well not exist - for some.

But that's the point. Religion is all about teaching people all-out lies in order to maintain its grip on power. That's why some religions ban higher education. That's why the Catholic Church in the time of Galileo was so belligerent as to escort him on a tour of their dungeons (dungeons) to inspect their instruments of torture.

The power-hungriness that comes with religion turns deadly frequently.

Religion is not responsible for all the evils of the world. Regimes like China are just as oppressive and restrictive as even the worst religions, but they have no religion.

The thing is that we are a secular nation. This is explicitly spelled out in the major documents that lay out the vision and plan for our nation. The Founding Fathers had seen how religion had corrupted and controlled the politics of Europe and had no wish to see it happen here. On top of that, many of them were deists, which is the equivalent of an atheist. And some were Quakers, who are so off the line from mainstream Christianity that many Quakers argue that they aren't even Christians.

And that First Amendment is something I'll fight for. See, it isn't about teaching good science or an examination of the evidence. It's about the fact that this country was founded on secularism and introducing religion indoctrination into our classrooms is contrary to that vision.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
baroque
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:58 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 92):
And some were Quakers, who are so off the line from mainstream Christianity that many Quakers argue that they aren't even Christians.

Well I have wondered a bit about that at times, but whatever, there have been some fine geologists who are/were Quakers, so I don't think the Quakers should be blamed.

See also
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...74/2005/00000001/00000001/art00007

http://www.quakerranter.org/so_dont_..._believe_in_intelligent_design.php
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:51 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 93):

Well I have wondered a bit about that at times, but whatever, there have been some fine geologists who are/were Quakers, so I don't think the Quakers should be blamed.

I'm not blaming them, I'm exonerating them. They support tolerance of other worldviews.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
BN747
Posts: 7524
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:15 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 92):
That's why some religions ban higher education.

I find that an interesting statement, just curious..like which ones?

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
baroque
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:57 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 94):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 93):

Well I have wondered a bit about that at times, but whatever, there have been some fine geologists who are/were Quakers, so I don't think the Quakers should be blamed.

I'm not blaming them, I'm exonerating them. They support tolerance of other worldviews.

Aha, I got that the wrong way first time around.  chat 
 
AverageUser
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RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:31 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 90):
From that perspective there is no purpose in it — its just the species which adapt survive, the others don't.

Fair enough, BUT, we have a large number of species that have not changed at all for a very long time. How do the genes of those species "know" they will not have to mutate?

You said the sole purpose of a species is to survive, which I should think makes sense at first glance. However, what would happen if we had a species that is extraordinarily effective in survival and reproduction?.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:46 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 97):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 90):
From that perspective there is no purpose in it --- its just the species which adapt survive, the others don't.

Fair enough, BUT, we have a large number of species that have not changed at all for a very long time. How do the genes of those species "know" they will not have to mutate?

They don't know a damned thing. They just sit there and be successful with not much pressure for forms different to show better survival rates. Most occur in unusual environments where there is less competitive pressure. The classic example is the genus Lingula (Brachiopoda) that looks pretty much the same from IIRC the Ordovician to Recent and its predecessor in the Cambrian Lingulella is damned difficult to disintuish from it. They both live in hyp- or anoxic marine to estuarine muds, where not much else cares to compete.
 
Rj111
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:02 am

RE: Evolution? Do You Believe In It?

Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:04 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 97):
How do the genes of those species "know" they will not have to mutate?

If a mutation doesn't give the animal a major advantage over the rest, or of course, it becomes a burden. Then that mutation will eventually be 'dissolved' as the mutated animal, and its offspring, mate with regular forms of the specie which are all surviving and are abundant.

So if a bird is born with an enormous beak, but in a situation, there was no advantage to this beak, the offspring would mate with the abundant regular sized beaked birds and the mutation would gradually be chiseled down to an average sized beak one over generations. Alternatively, if this beak was an advantage, the large beaked birds would be surviving more, increasing the likelihood that the ancestors of that large beaked animal began to interbreed and produce another thoroughbred large beaked bird!

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