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RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:55 pm
by baroque


Quoting 767Lover (Reply 39):
Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 32):
Quoting 767Lover (Reply 7):
Hmmmm. Norway has been drilling oil off its shores for about 3 decades. Something to think about.

Oh no, a reprise of the "drill baby drill" slogan from the Republican presidential campaign! duck

Laugh, but...

"The economic growth of the country (Norway) was just below the OECD average until
the 1970s when Norway discovered vast amount of petroleum resources in the
North Sea. Undoubtedly, the oil-propelled economy has carried the country to
one of the richest in the world today."

Later in the document it is mentioned that petroleum profits are a large contributory to social and health program funding.

--from Health Systems In Transition: Norway
© World Health Organization 2006, on behalf of the European Observatory on Health Systems and Policies

But you forgot to add the following.

Oil reserves for Noway peaked at 12 billion barrels in 1997 and have since fallen to 8.2 billion barrels in 2007.

Production for Norway peaked at 3.3 million bpd in 2000 and fell to 2.55 million bpd in 2007. Reserves to production ratio for Norway is 8.8, better than the UK at 6.0 and worse than the USA at 11.7. So if drill baby drill was a short term policy for the US, the same holds for Norway, but possibly a bit more. All data from BP summary.

None of which argues against the Norwegians having obtained significant benefits from their oil reserves, arguably they have managed them better than any other country.

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:00 pm
by Kiwirob


Quoting AverageUser (Reply 48):
Yes, the idea of egality that is fundamental to Nordic social thinking has its roots in the evangelical (pietist) movement, that was decidedly anti-elite, and the Social Democrats have traditionally had a notable openly Christian fraction.

I disagree the basis for the Nordic model is called Jante Law, for some reason the Nordic people took this idea up and ran with it. The concept was created by the Norwegian/Danish author Aksel Sandemose in his novel A fugitive crosses his tracks. Norwegians, Danes and the Swedish have taken this crap as gospel for a very long time, its ingrained into them.

The 10 main principles are:

Don't think that you are special.
Don't think that you are of the same standing as us.
Don't think that you are smarter than us.
Don't fancy yourself as being better than us.
Don't think that you know more than us.
Don't think that you are more important than us.
Don't think that you are good at anything.
Don't laugh at us.
Don't think that anyone cares about you.
Don't think that you can teach us anything.

Hence the reason why most people in the Nordic region are middle class, there aren't that many super wealthy (they all leave for Switzerland or London when they get too rich) and very few people living below the poverty line.

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:46 pm
by GDB
Indeed Baroque, Maggie did certainly squander the oil bonanza she inherited.
While some pretty major reforms in the economy and the unions were needed and she did bring them about, it's worth remembering that for all the plaudits about her 'steadfastness' in tough economic times and how she unlike her predecessors, did not perform policy u-turns when things got challenging, her predecessors did not have oil revenues to fall back on.

But then it's also true that some, most notably McMillan in the late 50's and early 60's, flunked any opportunity to carry needed reforms, usually by 'buying off' with concessions, both sides of industry.
While the countries economic condition worsened.
Thatcher was not wrong to castigate that and want to avoid it again, just that she went too far the other way. In other areas of policy this tendency was to eventually cost her her job.
(People think only recent politicians 'spin' or have manipulated budgetary policy for very short term political gains, they should read up on 'Supermac', today's lot were nothing compared to him in those respects).

Another charge against Maggie's use of North Sea Oil was the failure to use at least a small part of the revenues, to update industry, via a low interest fund set up for that purpose.
Shouldn't have to, but the City Of London were historically uninterested. Too short term.

You'd also have thought that the construction of the vast infrastructure needed for the North Sea would have provided a boost and once in a life time chance to update industries like shipbuilding.
But no, the payback to them and industry in general was way short of what you would have expected, since the government were too blinded by ideology.
Across the North Sea, it was different for Norway.
They are it seems just sensible and practical about such opportunities.

And during this period of maximum oil revenues, the £ was too high, another burden on industry that was avoidable.
It was not only, as her more slavish supporters still claim, only 'lame duck' companies that went under.

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:30 pm
by AverageUser
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 51):
the Nordic model is called Jante Law,

Lego blocks with different base plans don't play,
but there is no limit for those that fit together.

[Edited 2009-03-27 14:31:39]

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:52 am
by Alessandro


Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 46):
Not true, the tax on new cars is also outreagious, the Norwegian carpark is the oldest in Europe. So out cars coupled with poor roads leads to a lot of dead people who shouldn't be dead, for that I blame the Norwegian government and all the idiotic Norwegians who are to pathetic to do anything about it. People in Norway do not know how to protest, they just accept that the people in power are doing the right thing and leave it at that.

Last I heard the value of cross border trade (smuggling) with Sweden is something like 2 billion NOK per week. People living anywhere near the Swedish border buy all there groceries, electrical goods, building supplies, tobacco, alcohol and anything else they can smuggle in from Sweden.

Some Norwegian moved to Sweden to afford his dream, to own a Ferrari. Sure tax on cars
are silly in Norway, Denmark, Finland and Iceland.

RE: "Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:52 am
by baroque


Quoting GDB (Reply 52):
You'd also have thought that the construction of the vast infrastructure needed for the North Sea would have provided a boost and once in a life time chance to update industries like shipbuilding.
But no, the payback to them and industry in general was way short of what you would have expected, since the government were too blinded by ideology.
Across the North Sea, it was different for Norway.
They are it seems just sensible and practical about such opportunities.

Ironically, the UK should have been better situated to take advantage. Probably Thatcher would have criticised the Norwegians for being to monopolistic in benefitting the state, but the results rather speak for themselves. I can remember the Norwegians being called the blue eyed Arabs of the North around 1980 - I think that is unfair to the Norwegians as they have arguably been much more effective than any of the Arab states.

The disposal of the state oil and gas companies by Thatcher was especially short sighted and benefitted special interests rather than the state. They should have been kept under dominant state ownership but they could have been (and largely were prior to sale) run along the lines of BP and Shell. Both had excellent acreage and exploration records. It is quite funny to see BG buying up assets in Australia these days.

I do get the feeling that Dutch disease should be renamed British or even Thatcher disease and leave Dutch disease to the elm trees it so enjoys!!

Talking of remnants of industry, I see BAe is going to build armoured excavators, is that some remnant of the old Vickers tractors division? And does it mean that the next war will be fought underground?  duck