Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
JFKMan
Topic Author
Posts: 507
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:46 am

Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:15 am

If its a US President, British monarch or Prime Minister, French President, or German Chancellor...

Which world leaders in history (or present day) do you think are overrated and underrated? Which do you think are looked upon for better or worse than they really were?

I will start...

I think Franklyn D. Roosevelt is perhaps the most overrated US President. He did NOT fix the economy with his new deal...the US did not exit depression until WW2, which created all the jobs and the industry. FDR also did not really end the war...

I also think John F. Kennedy is overrated. He was catholic, great! So am I..but does it really matter? He was Irish, as am I...but who cares really? He was shot...very tragic moment for our nations history and a very sad thing. But I dont really think he did enough amazing things to be ranked among the best Presidents.

Who do I think is underrated? John Adams, Harry Truman, and probably George H.W. Bush.

Clement Attlee is probably the most underrated (or not heard of) British PM. Not many people I know here in NY have even heard of him...yet they all know Churchill. (I don't think Churchill is overrated BTW..he deserves it) Attlee did so much in the post-war years to help get Britain back on track.

I also think Neville Chamberlain is very underrated. He worked very hard for peace. He worked so hard for something he really believed in and I honor him for this.

I'm not so sure about overrated British PMs...perhaps Gladstone but I got to think about it more.

Thats my start...how about all of you?
 
GQfluffy
Posts: 3072
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:22 am

So far Obama is waaaaay overrated.
 
JFKMan
Topic Author
Posts: 507
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:46 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:31 am



Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 1):
So far Obama is waaaaay overrated.

Yep...this is something I got to agree with it. The 'Messiah" has failed to impress me.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3555
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:33 am



Quoting JFKMan (Reply 2):
Yep...this is something I got to agree with it. The 'Messiah" has failed to impress me.

Make that 3/3. I fail to see how just throwing money at problems fixes anything. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.

-DiamondFlyer
 
captaink
Posts: 4010
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:45 am



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
Quoting JFKMan (Reply 2):
Yep...this is something I got to agree with it. The 'Messiah" has failed to impress me.

Make that 3/3. I fail to see how just throwing money at problems fixes anything. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.

-DiamondFlyer

Fellas give your president some time to acclimatize no? I has barely been 2+ months.. Rating a president is usually done after his presidency, lets see how things pan out. Maybe throwing money at problems doesn't fix everything, but maybe it might help depending on what Washington has planned. Maybe we don't know it all.. Maybe, is the key word here. Obama just started.
 
JFKMan
Topic Author
Posts: 507
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:46 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:49 am



Quoting Captaink (Reply 4):
a president is usually done after his presidency

Well...Bush was never given that luxury.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:56 am

Overrated US President

Ronald Reagan


Underrated US President

Jimmy Carter

Quoting JFKMan (Reply 5):
Well...Bush was never given that luxury.

He's out now and so is the verdict. He was one of the worse US Presidents ever. His outgoing approval numbers reflected that.

Quoting Captaink (Reply 4):
Rating a president is usually done after his presidency, lets see how things pan out.

 checkmark 
 
JFKMan
Topic Author
Posts: 507
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:46 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:10 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
Jimmy Carter

I would love to hear why...


Jimmy Carter destroyed our economy...he did not stand up against Iran....Reagan did. Reagan also fixed our economy.
 
GQfluffy
Posts: 3072
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:18 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
He was one of the worse US Presidents ever.

History will show different.

I hope Obama does turn into one of the best Presidents we've ever had. Why? For one it'll mean he's turned us around, and two it'll mean we've become one of the greenest, cleanest, and most prosperous countries out there. Who gives a damn about what color his skin is and what party he belongs to. We need a direction, and a strong leader. So far, we haven't gotten the change we were promised.
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:30 am

The most overrated leader ever: Winston Churchill.
 
jm017
Posts: 781
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 6:47 pm

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:15 am



Quoting Captaink (Reply 4):
Fellas give your president some time to acclimatize no? I has barely been 2+ months..

Exactly. Has only been two months. Geez.

Quoting JFKMan (Reply 7):
Reagan did. Reagan also fixed our economy.

Funny, I would have put him in the waay overrated category. Fixed the economy? Uh, quite the opposite.

As for Carter, he wasn't the best, but he was not as Godawful as he is made out to be. As president. As an unwanted 21st century presidential advisor, well that's a different story.
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:13 am



Quoting JM017 (Reply 10):
Exactly. Has only been two months. Geez.

Yeah that means he's just warming up. YIKES! Considering the giant mess he has made in such a short time I'm not looking forward to the rest of his presidency. I hope he will improve for the nations sake.

Overrated: Obama and no I don't think it is too early to say this. He has been hailed like the second coming and is failing to deliver.

Underrated: GWB all the hatred aimed at him was way over the top. I think history will show he was quite a good president.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:38 am



Quoting JFKMan (Reply 5):
Quoting Captaink (Reply 4):
a president is usually done after his presidency

Well...Bush was never given that luxury.

Bush was not under nearly the same scrutiny as Obama two months into his presidency. Once you get a few years in, it's fair to make claims of overrating or underrating. But two months in? In order to be over or underrated, you first have to be rated. Give it at least until after the 2010 elections.

-Mir
 
kalakaua
Posts: 1430
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:23 pm

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:49 am

Overrated: FDR, Obama
Underrated: Coolidge, Hoover
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:50 pm



Quoting JFKMan (Reply 7):


Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
Jimmy Carter

I would love to hear why...


Jimmy Carter destroyed our economy...he did not stand up against Iran....Reagan did. Reagan also fixed our economy.

Reagan made shady dealings with Iran, Carter didn´t. I don´t call it to stand up.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:53 pm

Augusto Pinochet gets my vote as most underrated, Chile was going down the drain and he saved it, later he resigned in a popular vote. Avoided confrontation with the Argentinans whom I consider maddogs at the time.
Most overrated? Probably Tito in Yugoslavia, he wrecked the economy in the country and was fortunate to die at the right time.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21638
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:06 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 14):
Reagan made shady dealings with Iran, Carter didn´t. I don´t call it to stand up.

Exactly. Carter also ordered a military rescue operation of the hostages which unfortunately failed to achieve its objective.

Reagan basically appeased the iranian leaders and the ayatollahs responded by releasing the hostages just after they had gotten rid of Carter who was a much tougher opponent for them.

But some people don't seem to have much of a recollection of the actual events of the time...!

Reagan then set the events in motion and established the ideology which has been the root cause of the current financial crisis. He was and in some circles still is highly overrated.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21638
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:07 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 15):
Augusto Pinochet gets my vote as most underrated

You mean the brutal military dictator? Wow. What a choice!  yuck 
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:20 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):


Quoting Alessandro (Reply 15):
Augusto Pinochet gets my vote as most underrated

You mean the brutal military dictator? Wow. What a choice!

So which other "brutal military dictator" has stepped down after an election?
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3895
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:35 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 15):
Augusto Pinochet gets my vote as most underrated, Chile was going down the drain and he saved it, later he resigned in a popular vote.

Well at least noone mentioned Hitler yet as being underrated.
I also think it's not appropriate to name someone who had 1000s of presumed opposition figures disappear or tortured.
By 1990 and the end of the cold war he knew, just like the white South African apartheid leaders, he had no further place in the current political world environment, his presence would work against the country. He felt for slowing down, was in his mid 70s then and managed to retain a respected position. He knew he could otherwise end like Ceaucescu. Nothing noble about that.

I think some people are too hard on Obama. the US economy is in a mess since a year or two and he seems to start solving the problems quite cleverly. GW Bush and Clinton (to show I am not a partizan Democrat) didn't do anything worthwhile their first 8 months in office.

Pity there is no parallel world so we could show you that president GW Bush or McCain would have done it worse if they were president now.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:44 pm



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 19):
Well at least noone mentioned Hitler yet as being underrated.
I also think it's not appropriate to name someone who had 1000s of presumed opposition figures disappear or tortured.
By 1990 and the end of the cold war he knew, just like the white South African apartheid leaders, he had no further place in the current political world environment, his presence would work against the country. He felt for slowing down, was in his mid 70s then and managed to retain a respected position. He knew he could otherwise end like Ceaucescu. Nothing noble about that.

I think some people are too hard on Obama. the US economy is in a mess since a year or two and he seems to start solving the problems quite cleverly. GW Bush and Clinton (to show I am not a partizan Democrat) didn't do anything worthwhile their first 8 months in office.

Pity there is no parallel world so we could show you that president GW Bush or McCain would have done it worse if they were president now.

Because Hitler was as useless as Allende as head of state, remember both where elected.
The yes or no vote for continue the rule of Pinochet was in 1988, the election was a rather close one 55 vs 45 procent of the vote no to continue to rule, easily it could´ve been rigged if they wanted to.Nicolae Ceaucescu was
then still in power building the "peoples palace" in Bucharest and FW De Klerk was still supporting apartheid back then.
US economy was in a mess for last period of GWB.
 
JFKMan
Topic Author
Posts: 507
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:46 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:01 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 11):
Overrated: Obama and no I don't think it is too early to say this. He has been hailed like the second coming and is failing to deliver.

Underrated: GWB all the hatred aimed at him was way over the top. I think history will show he was quite a good president.

Yep..I agree with both of these statements.

Also...on sercurity..I felt safe for 8 years knowing Bush was in control, with Obama? I've no idea...
 
Klaus
Posts: 21638
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:05 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 20):
Because Hitler was as useless as Allende as head of state, remember both where elected.

Not true for Hitler.

The nazis had to outright ban the opposition before they could even claim bogus election victories. Hitler was helped into the saddle by a rather unholy coalition of conservative parties who believed they could "control" him. He was never elected in a free and fair election.

And Pinochet was a murderous dictator who had real or presumable opponents tortured and killed at a whim. He has no place in an "underrated" list — unless you apply this qualification to his crimes.
 
captaink
Posts: 4010
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:23 pm



Quoting JFKMan (Reply 5):
Well...Bush was never given that luxury.

Whats more Bush was loved at first. When 911 came his ratings shot way up. He was loved so much in the first 4 years, that hey, he got reelected, and then things came crumbling down. Bush was a popular president at first. And as mentioned here, Obama is receiving alot more attention from the public, good and bad, due the particular circumstances of his presidency.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:43 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
Not true for Hitler.

The nazis had to outright ban the opposition before they could even claim bogus election victories. Hitler was helped into the saddle by a rather unholy coalition of conservative parties who believed they could "control" him. He was never elected in a free and fair election.

And Pinochet was a murderous dictator who had real or presumable opponents tortured and killed at a whim. He has no place in an "underrated" list — unless you apply this qualification to his crimes.

Well, that´s your interpretation. Sure Pinochet was no Mother Theresa, but if Allende had continued much more bloodshed had taken place, war inbetween Argentine and Chile would´ve been invitable (only the pope could stop that fight) and after Chile lost that war, then Falklands been a very different war, no Chile to back up the Brits, no radar surviellance from Chile nor any escape route for British aircrews into Chile. Basically it´s been that the Brits had to fight
a very long campaign from Ascension and it would been very costly.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:47 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 11):


Quoting JM017 (Reply 10):
Exactly. Has only been two months. Geez.

Yeah that means he's just warming up. YIKES! Considering the giant mess he has made in such a short time I'm not looking forward to the rest of his presidency. I hope he will improve for the nations sake.

Overrated: Obama and no I don't think it is too early to say this. He has been hailed like the second coming and is failing to deliver.

Underrated: GWB all the hatred aimed at him was way over the top. I think history will show he was quite a good president.

GWB wrecked the economy, badly, he was personally saved by oilmoney from KSA and he run the country the same way he run his own company, but this time no oilmoney from KSA could save the country.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:54 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 9):
The most overrated leader ever: Winston Churchill.

A good wartime leader, not so good in peacetime.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:58 pm



Quoting JFKMan (Thread starter):
If its a US President, British monarch or Prime Minister, French President, or German Chancellor...

Which world leaders in history (or present day) do you think are overrated and underrated? Which do you think are looked upon for better or worse than they really were?

I will start...

I think Franklyn D. Roosevelt is perhaps the most overrated US President. He did NOT fix the economy with his new deal...the US did not exit depression until WW2, which created all the jobs and the industry. FDR also did not really end the war...

I also think John F. Kennedy is overrated. He was catholic, great! So am I..but does it really matter? He was Irish, as am I...but who cares really? He was shot...very tragic moment for our nations history and a very sad thing. But I dont really think he did enough amazing things to be ranked among the best Presidents.

Who do I think is underrated? John Adams, Harry Truman, and probably George H.W. Bush.

Clement Attlee is probably the most underrated (or not heard of) British PM. Not many people I know here in NY have even heard of him...yet they all know Churchill. (I don't think Churchill is overrated BTW..he deserves it) Attlee did so much in the post-war years to help get Britain back on track.

I also think Neville Chamberlain is very underrated. He worked very hard for peace. He worked so hard for something he really believed in and I honor him for this.

I'm not so sure about overrated British PMs...perhaps Gladstone but I got to think about it more.

Thats my start...how about all of you?

Chamberlain was a gentleman amongst thugs (Adolf and Josef), the gentleman is doomed to lose out in that company. Churchill was a thug as well, but he could handle the other thugs which Chamberlain couldn´t.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21638
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:59 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 24):
Well, that´s your interpretation.

Are you seriously suggesting that torture and murders of opposition to the regime were a matter of "interpretation"? Is that what you are trying to say?  Wow!

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 24):
Sure Pinochet was no Mother Theresa, but if Allende had continued much more bloodshed had taken place

Without the massive pressure from the US through the CIA and other means, Allende might actually have reached some positive success, but it was obviously deemed important to not let it come to that.

Instead, an extreme-right dictator was seen as a "better choice". And of course it became necessary to paint Allende as Satan incarnate to retroactively keep up the justification in plain view of the bloody consequences and the horrendous civil rights violations that were perpetrated with the assent of the western backers. The worse Pinochet turned out to be, the worse Allende had to be painted.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:06 pm

Most Over-rated U.S. leaders:

-John Kennedy. Simply because he was not in office long enough to get a fair rating. He had great potential, but it was never realized.

-Ronald Reagan. The GOP fairy-tale about him is impressive, but he did not single-handedly defeat the USSR. He quadrupled our national debt inside 8 years. He was the most outwardly handled U.S. president of all time, up until George W. Bush. He was an optimist, at a time when the U.S sorely needed an optimist, and he understood vision and was able to present that vision.

Most Under-rated:

-Harry Truman. He's seen as a very good president, but he helped lead the U.S. from a full wartime footing into the Cold War, and established U.S. policy towards communism that lasted 50 years. And he was correct in firing MacArthur.

-George H.W. Bush. The GOP has lambasted him for his "no new taxes" guffaw, and his decision not to occupy Iraq in '91. But he was man enough to realize that a tax increase was necessary, and was man enough to abide by his word (imagine that!) that the Gulf War in '91 would not be a war of occupation and overthrow, but to oust Iraq from Kuwait. He kept his word, and even though I never voted for him, he gained my respect for that.

The best presidents are still Washington, Lincoln and FDR, for what they faced down, and the worst are probably Buchanan, Nixon and George W. Bush.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4204
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:25 pm



Quoting JFKMan (Reply 7):
Jimmy Carter destroyed our economy...he did not stand up against Iran....Reagan did. Reagan also fixed our economy.

I think history looks a lot better for Carter than a lot of people realize because had we followed the course that he wanted I have a good bet the economic crisis of today would have been averted because he advocated that people not become obsessed with having unnecessary "Things" . As he said in his Malaise speech.

That kind of thing is never popular for a president to say and he paid the political price for it. This is something that Barack Obama has to do at some point but he knows its political suicide to do so, he needs to tell the truth to the American people and not care if he is hated for it.

As for what I know about the man he is a great humanitarian and not a fighter and during the Cold War that was unacceptable and that paved the way for Reagan who was the tough guy of that era and eventually oversaw the end of the cold war (he didn't single handily end it).
 
Klaus
Posts: 21638
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:35 pm



Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 30):
That kind of thing is never popular for a president to say and he paid the political price for it. This is something that Barack Obama has to do at some point but he knows its political suicide to do so, he needs to tell the truth to the American people and not care if he is hated for it.

Obama has done that all along through the campaign. And in the current climate more people see it as part of the solution for their problems so there is not much if any political price to pay for it, especially since he carefully packages it with a matching dose of optimism.
 
PSA53
Posts: 2939
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:15 pm

Underrated:

I believe in time that GWB will get better marks.Iraq should become more independent.I also
give him high points for never shying away or sugarcoating any issue be it for political gain or not.

The media gave him a bad rap in such areas as Katrina in which New Orleans,lets face it, is a democratic city and this "blame Bush" on everything at one time was outright harassment. But GWB tripped over his own feet in many issues,especially the economy, in which he will be kept at the lower of ratings pole.And his pr communications,OMG!

Overrated:

FDR for The New Deal and Interment of Japanese-Americans.
JFK for the media "Camelot" period.

Justified rating.

Winston Churchill.Great wartime leader.

Way To soon.
Obama. I love his attitude towards Wall St and CEO's.But I see weakness in his news conferences where for some reason he feels he needs to make a verbal name endorsement on the issues.Yor're the President.You are the endorsement.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3544
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:36 pm



Quoting JFKMan (Thread starter):
Clement Attlee is probably the most underrated (or not heard of) British PM. Not many people I know here in NY have even heard of him...yet they all know Churchill. (I don't think Churchill is overrated BTW..he deserves it) Attlee did so much in the post-war years to help get Britain back on track.

Clement Attlee, won the 1945 election by promising a war weary nation the earth. One of his slogans was "homes fit for heroes to live in", after 5 years this was sarcastically referred to as "not even fit for them to die in" His one great claim for acheivement was the National Health Service, to this day some may wonder if this was such an acheivement. as to the economy, rationing was finally lifted by Winston Churchills government in 1953; thus it can be said that Attlees 1945 landslide led to a lot of disapointment. he actually did little to "get Britain back on track"

Quoting JFKMan (Thread starter):
I also think Neville Chamberlain is very underrated. He worked very hard for peace. He worked so hard for something he really believed in and I honor him for this.

The one thing Neville Chamerlain acheived, was to buy an extra year of peace, which was sorely needed, the RAF in particular, was in a hopeless state in 1938, and whilst still not well equipped in 1939, at least was beginning to equip with reasonable numbers of modern planes. In addition the RAF had built a lot of modern airfields in the interim, which all helped.
The big question is though, did he really think it was "peace in our time" or did he privately realise he had just bought some valuable breathing space ?

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 9):
The most overrated leader ever: Winston Churchill.

lease explain ? Whilst he had a reputation pre WWII for being a right pain in the rear (must have been the American half of him!!!) he inspired the UK throught the worst of the war, when the US man on the ground Joseph Kennedy, thought the UK was finished. Without his leadership, much of the World would be a very different place today.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 26):
Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 9):
The most overrated leader ever: Winston Churchill.

A good wartime leader, not so good in peacetime.

As above, his pre WWII performance wasn't great, but his post WWII government, was the beginning of two decades of unprecedented prosperity.
 
kalakaua
Posts: 1430
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:23 pm

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:43 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
Exactly. Carter also ordered a military rescue operation of the hostages which unfortunately failed to achieve its objective.

Reagan basically appeased the iranian leaders and the ayatollahs responded by releasing the hostages just after they had gotten rid of Carter who was a much tougher opponent for them.

But some people don't seem to have much of a recollection of the actual events of the time...!

The secret op was ill prepared, and should not have been carried out. Carter was too idealistic when it came with dealing with the Shah. The previous administrations before that weren't of any help either. Iran as a country, did not like that very much.

Khomeini was afraid of Carter?! Oh, I bet. He sure was crapping in his robes.  Yeah sure

The release of the hostages was more of a symbolic insult for Carter at the end of his term.
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:51 pm

Under-rated leaders?

Indian PM Indira Gandhi
Prince Albert of Monaco
French President Georges Pompidou
Dr Mahatir Muhammad ex- PM of Malaysia
Former US President Jimmy Carter

Over-rated leaders?

Italy's PM Silvio Berlusconi
French President Nicolas Sarkozy
Former US President GW Bush
US President Barack Obama
 
Rj111
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:02 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:57 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 9):

The most overrated leader ever: Winston Churchill.

 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3544
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:14 pm

Tony Blair, an opprtunism leader, if ever their was one. Claimed to have a hot line to God, which to me is always a worrying sign.
His economic miracle, has now been shown to have been created by persuading the public, to fritter away their savings on over priced housing, and crappy far eastern consumer goods; whilst burdening the taxpayer, with the biggest expansion in public sector "non jobs" ever seen.

Meanwhile, he loved to intervene, wherever there was the possibility of starting a war. Admittedly the previous Government, has cut military spending, but they weren't flying round the World looking for a fight.

The one thing I really can't understand though is, he was the willing poodle, to one of the least popular US presidents in history, but the US as a whole still thinks he was a good guy, and will pay $1000's to hear him speak.
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:20 pm

Current Mexican president Felipe Calderon is underrated IMO. People blame him for not dealing with the "security" situation, and yes there are a lot more security issues but people forget it's for one simple reason: he's the first president that had the balls to actually declare war against the drug lords, and he's unleashing hell on them, which of course means the thugs are now going apeshit. All the other guys before him didn't do much and some even pretended the problem was non-existent. Fortunately most of the violence is happening within the thugs themselves. And I hope they continue to kill each other.
 
Lufthansa411
Posts: 351
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:54 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:26 pm

Most of the underrated leaders did or realised small, miniscule things that because the dealt with them, have gone unnoticed by many.

Depends on what your evaluating:

Jimmy Carter: Carter is one of the only presidents to truly shine more after his presidency than during it. Regardless of what you think of his time in office, there is no denying he has been in the humanitarian spotlight since with projects like Habitat for Humanity, the Deworming of Africa and many others. Sure, other presidents have their humanitarian organisations, but Carter really put his heart and sole into them after his presidency, and it shows.

Reagan: Although the current economic crisis highlights just why Reagan is/was overrated, I think he was the right president for the 80's. People wanted a charismatic leader who gave them some hope, and RR offered that.

Underrated Leader:

Teddy Roosevelt: I leader that did more to balance business and humanism than any other American president. Was a fiscally conservative environmentalist, who overhauled food safety (see "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair, created the national park service, put the robber barons into their place, outlawed child labour; and at the same time realed in government spending.

Overrated Leader:

George Washington: Yes, the first president of the US, but really, he did very little in the way of public policy and in my estimation, happened to be in the right place at the right time. During the early parts of the French and Indian war, he surrendered a highly important fort and was called a coward, only to take command of American forces later on.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:34 pm



Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 39):
rge Washington: Yes, the first president of the US, but really, he did very little in the way of public policy and in my estimation, happened to be in the right place at the right time.

What made him great is that he stepped away from it all. Instead of becoming a King or a dictator, as many wanted, he passed on the he baton of power to someone else, and did it willingly.

That's what made him so great. He set the peaceful precident, that remains to this day.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21638
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:36 pm



Quoting Kalakaua (Reply 34):
The secret op was ill prepared, and should not have been carried out.

Hindsight is always convenient...

Quoting Kalakaua (Reply 34):
Carter was too idealistic when it came with dealing with the Shah. The previous administrations before that weren't of any help either. Iran as a country, did not like that very much.

Iran as a country especially hadn't liked the Shah being installed by foreign powers in the first place.

Quoting Kalakaua (Reply 34):
Khomeini was afraid of Carter?!

Says who?

Quoting Kalakaua (Reply 34):
The release of the hostages was more of a symbolic insult for Carter at the end of his term.

Indeed. They knew why they preferred Reagan enough to basically endorse him in the election.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21638
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:41 pm



Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 39):
Reagan: Although the current economic crisis highlights just why Reagan is/was overrated, I think he was the right president for the 80's. People wanted a charismatic leader who gave them some hope, and RR offered that.

That's about as sensible as recommending a drinking binge to a depressed person: "Hey, at least it'll cheer you up for a few moments before it will kill you!"  mischievous 
 
EISHN
Posts: 1097
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:31 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:47 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 9):
The most overrated leader ever: Winston Churchill.

He may have done great things in WWII, but he was a brutal man, and not very kind towards the Irish during the early part of the century.
 
Lufthansa411
Posts: 351
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:54 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:48 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):

Of course, but as you made note in a previous reply, hindsight is always 20/20.  Wink

The only difference in the case of Reagan is the longterm economic issues are just coming out now, instead of the first couple months or years after his presidency.
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:50 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 26):
A good wartime leader, not so good in peacetime.

A terrible wartime leader too, look up his long list of failures during WWI. And it was his own failures during WWII (the Scandinavian disaster, entirely his incompetence) while Chamberlain was PM that ironically brought him into power. Then most of what he did, except not make peace was pretty much a disaster. Do not forget the Ultra had broken the German Enigma pretty early in the war.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 33):
lease explain ? Whilst he had a reputation pre WWII for being a right pain in the rear (must have been the American half of him!!!) he inspired the UK throught the worst of the war, when the US man on the ground Joseph Kennedy, thought the UK was finished. Without his leadership, much of the World would be a very different place today.

It had almost nothing to do with him except that he didn't make peace, but then again he failed in his aim. Britain would still be an imperial nation if he had his way. I am glad he didn't. This is where history for once underestimates the US role, it was thanks to Roosevelt who blocked Churchill's moves which would have expanded the empire let alone preserve it.

For all he did, I cannot admire him any more than Stalin for standing up to Hitler. People thought Britain was finished, well Russia was in much worse state and had to face the German army head on (something the British never did) when it was at the peak of its power. Churchill had the cunning to keep his forces away and delay the establishment of the second front until after Stalingrad when it had clearly been proven that the Germany power is now waning. It was Russia that bore the brunt, and if you want to credit Churchill for that, I won't stand in the way.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 33):
As above, his pre WWII performance wasn't great, but his post WWII government, was the beginning of two decades of unprecedented prosperity.

Not sure what you mean, he was ousted not long after the end of the war, wasn't he?

For the breakup of the British Empire I have just as much to thank Churchill as I have to thank Hitler, probably more for starting the war in the first place which led to the end of colonialism. Let there be no doubt, it was not the intention of Hitler, Stalin or Churchill or any French leader to end colonialism. If there was one leader who actively worked for it, it was Roosevelt.

The effects of the ill intent even in the breakup of the British Empire still tears many millions lives today. From Palestine the entire Middle East to the Balkans, the freed territories were not exactly meant to be free. From Lawrence of Arabia to the family of Saud, the likes of Churchill are to be thanked.

In fact he was pretty evil but that is what media can do, turn Devils into Saints. I am glad to be able to see through it. His ideas/support of the bombing of German cities itself is more than questionable enough (Arthur Harris is sacrificed to save his image), his racism helped a great deal if not ensured the conflict in Palestine. More sympathetic to Zionism, when told of the Arab majority in Palestine he retorted: 'I don't think that the dog in a manger has the right to the manger.'

I feel my post kinda wanders all over the place, but its the lack of time (and frankly will, because too many people are still drunk on the war propaganda, I no longer feel the enthusiasm to make a case since there are more pressing things going on in the world today), and the huge material available to make one's case against the most overrated leader ever, in fact I say he was pretty evil.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21638
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:52 pm



Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 44):
The only difference in the case of Reagan is the longterm economic issues are just coming out now, instead of the first couple months or years after his presidency.

I think there is quite a difference between a rescue mission planned under pressure by the Pentagon and a deliberate march into disaster for political profit...
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:54 pm



Quoting RJ111 (Reply 36):

Hahahahahaha
If this is the place where propaganda is elevated to the level of religious text, then I don't wanna stay. But the topic forced me to speak the truth.

Quoting EISHN (Reply 43):
He may have done great things in WWII, but he was a brutal man, and not very kind towards the Irish during the early part of the century.

I did think about mentioning that, but I am not very knowledgeable about that part of the story.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:25 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 28):
re you seriously suggesting that torture and murders of opposition to the regime were a matter of "interpretation"? Is that what you are trying to say?

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 24):
Sure Pinochet was no Mother Theresa, but if Allende had continued much more bloodshed had taken place

Without the massive pressure from the US through the CIA and other means, Allende might actually have reached some positive success, but it was obviously deemed important to not let it come to that.

Instead, an extreme-right dictator was seen as a "better choice". And of course it became necessary to paint Allende as Satan incarnate to retroactively keep up the justification in plain view of the bloody consequences and the horrendous civil rights violations that were perpetrated with the assent of the western backers. The worse Pinochet turned out to be, the worse Allende had to be painted.

Allende was a no-hoper, inflation was rated 140% in his last year in power, ranchowner smuggled their cattle out of the country not to lose too much money, they where boycotted
because nationalisation of mining assets. Strikes all the time.
Sure there was killings, but nothing if you compare a war between Argentine and Chile would´ve cost and the prolonged bloodshed over Falklands that would be next war.
Allende was not a Satan, but a dreamer at the wrong job. Satanic is more like Pol Pot,
another Marxist.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Most Overrated/underrated Leaders

Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:27 pm



Quoting EISHN (Reply 43):
He may have done great things in WWII, but he was a brutal man, and not very kind towards the Irish during the early part of the century.

Not to mention the KZ-camps in South Africa, which he was involved in.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], kelval, Virtual737 and 29 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos