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baroque
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Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:28 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 47):
Ladies and Gentleman...More info on Hamilton-Gate (Part 1 of GOD KNOWS HOW MANY) 2009

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74158
Full decision by Stewards

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74159
The Radio Transmission Text...With Audio Link

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74160
FIA insisting it was-Misled.

Super links BlueE. Bearing in mind the ambiguity of whether Truli is in front or behind, how on earth can they use the transcript from the cars to prove anything. Any conversation while trying to keep a car on a road is likely to have errors. And you can hardly be hanged for a misspeak.

from the last link

"Both the driver and the team manager stated that no such instruction had been given.

"The race director specifically asked Hamilton whether he had consciously allowed Trulli to overtake. Hamilton insisted that he had not done so."

The FIA added that both in radio communications and in an interview after the race, it was clear that McLaren had instructed Hamilton to let Trulli through.


Do we have a transcript of the race director conversation with Hamilton? What was asked and EXACTLY what was the answer? Absent that, I don't see how it is reasonable to dissect a conversation that was not the primary task of the guy at the time for deeper meaning. Are all the other car to pit conversations being analysed for slips?
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:33 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 48):
It is getting very old guys. seriously, stop obsessing with Ferrari and enjoy the races.
FIA has proved to be shite in many, many decisions, but yet some of you always sing the same song. I can't even imagine what you would be saying had a Ferrari been involved in the Vettel-Kubica or the LH-Trulli incident.

If we are behaving like that, it's because in many ways Ferrari has been advantaged over the past few years. The last to date is Japan were Bourdais was accused to have bothered Massa when leaving the pits. But you could clearly see Bourdais keeping his line and Massa trying to push him.

I never understood why Bourdais had been penalised there.

It's not because he sees a red car behind that he should let it pass.

It's not because Massa has no brain and wants to absolutely overtake a car in an impossible position that Bourdais should be penalised.

There are tons of examples like that.

But it's also true that lately, the FIA is more focused on hitting McLaren than advantaging Ferrari.

[Edited 2009-04-02 10:38:25]
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:00 pm



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 51):
If we are behaving like that, it's because in many ways Ferrari has been advantaged over the past few years

And yet it was McLaren that was guilty in the biggest scandal ever. Or let's avoid saying that many rule changes throughout recent seasons have been introduced in order for Ferrari not to win so easily. Yup, real help there!
In any case, If there is one GP where Ferrari should not even be mentioned regarding FIA decisions is precisely this last one, yet somehow some people manage to bring Ferrari in.
I though the numerous anti-Ferrisits here would have been happy that the red cars had nothing going for themselves this past GP, but I was wrong, apparently Ferrari has to be mentioned nonehteless.
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:26 pm

EZEIZA,

I want to start by saying...I DO NOT think that Ferrari gained anything by this judgement, so please don't see it that way...I DO believe that in this situation...had Ferrari been replaced with McLaren....they'd have either gotten away with it (somehow with or without support from Ferrari)...or B. be punished in a way that would not revoke their points, ie...a fine.

StealthZ provides a very intriguing point.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 41):
Has anyone noticed that the the steward drafted into the meetings in Sepang joining the 2 stewards from Australia was none other than Surinder Thathi, yes the one that went indignantly public after allegations of bias following the Spa debacle last year.

The same stewards were used in this race as were in SPA....McLaren (specifically Hamilton)were damaged. I don't see how you can NOT feel that something seems suspicious.

Again...I'm not bothering with Ferrari...IMO I don't think they have any opinion about this and are too busy trying to fix their car. I DO think that the FIA is biased toward "other" teams and is penalizing McLaren unfairly.
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:52 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 53):
I DO believe that in this situation...had Ferrari been replaced with McLaren....they'd have either gotten away with it (somehow with or without support from Ferrari)...or B. be punished in a way that would not revoke their points, ie...a fine.

Ferrari shouldn't even be in this conversation. And yet somehow it managed to show up. You migh be right, and yet you might not, since the facts are that Ferrari had nothing to do with any of these incidents.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 53):
I DO think that the FIA is biased toward "other" teams and is penalizing McLaren unfairly.

(extremely) Arguably they could be biased "against" McLaren (which I don't think so, but anyway...), but they are not favouring anyone. FIA just sucks in many decisions.
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:33 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 52):
I though the numerous anti-Ferrisits

Actually, the more I think about it and the more I think I'm not really an anti-Ferrari but more an anti-FIA and all the clowns that rule it  

I'm one of the guys who would like to see Ferrari back at the 24 Hours of Le Mans (I mean in LMP1 and officially). Because that's also here that they built their legend in the 50s and 60s.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 54):
Ferrari shouldn't even be in this conversation.

You're absolutely right. And sorry for bringing that up.

[Edited 2009-04-02 12:36:02]
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:39 pm

Anyhow, about this incident .. I'm getting kind of lost here .. the penalty on LH is for lying mainly right? Why was it wrong for him to let Trulli pass, and why did they deny thay had done so?

rgds
 
Springbok747
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:59 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 33):
Give them time, I'm sure they'll find some way to award the race to Ferrari.

Oh stop it ok. Ferrari were not involved in this incident in any way. They ended up with no points. So how the hell can they award the race to Ferrari? And honestly this 'Ferrari International Assistance' crap is getting old.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 56):
Why was it wrong for him to let Trulli pass, and why did they deny thay had done so?

McLaren believe Trulli shouldn't have passed Hamilton...but wasn't Trulli in 3rd place anyway? What a screwed up start to the season. In a few weeks guess Brawn GP will also come under scrutiny for their diffusers and if they're stripped of their win..who will end up 1,2 and 3? Its sad to see race victories being decided off the track.
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:10 pm



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 57):
What a screwed up start to the season

Exactly!! That's what I said above. 2008 has been poised by penalties everywhere and weird decisions from the marshalls, and 2009 seems to take the same direction...

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 57):
In a few weeks guess Brawn GP will also come under scrutiny for their diffusers

The FIA will give their final decision on the 14th of April.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 57):
Its sad to see race victories being decided off the track.

I agree, but unfortunately it's been like that for a good few years now.
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:29 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 56):
Anyhow, about this incident .. I'm getting kind of lost here .. the penalty on LH is for lying mainly right? Why was it wrong for him to let Trulli pass, and why did they deny thay had done so?

They say that McLaren and Hamilton did mislead the FIA in their statement right after the race. They accused them of breaching rule 151C that says:

Quote:
151. Breach of rules
Any of the following offences in addition to any offences
specifically referred to previously, shall be deemed to be a breach
of these rules :

[...]

c) Any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the
interests of any competition or to the interests of motor
sport generally.

As to why Hamilton "lied", I would not know.
 
Springbok747
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:56 pm

Why did Hamilton lie (if he lied that is)? Something doesn't quite fit here...did he lie to get a place on the podium? But that went to Trulli anyway (before all this crap started). And didn't Toyota withdraw their appeal? I'm confused.

When asked by Melbourne officials whether he had been purposely told by his team to allow the Toyota back past him again in Albert Park, the British ace had said no – but a pits-to-car radio transmission released by the FIA as well as a media interview given by Hamilton after the chequered flag had fallen, subsequently proved that statement to be untrue. The governing body revealed that the stewards now 'felt strongly that they had been misled by the driver and his team manager (Dave Ryan)'.

http://www.crash.net/Formula+One/New...on_did_not_lie_to_f1_stewards.html
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:51 pm



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 55):
but more an anti-FIA and all the clowns that rule it

I think there is a big consensus there  Wink

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 55):
You're absolutely right. And sorry for bringing that up.

 Smile

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 57):
Oh stop it ok. Ferrari were not involved in this incident in any way. They ended up with no points. So how the hell can they award the race to Ferrari? And honestly this 'Ferrari International Assistance' crap is getting old.

 checkmark   yes 

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 57):
McLaren believe Trulli shouldn't have passed Hamilton...but wasn't Trulli in 3rd place anyway?

That's what i thought also ... in the other thread I belive I mentioned that during the race and that on TV they were then saying that Trulli went to 4th but then back to 3rd, according to the official timing screens they have (or whatever they are called)

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 59):
They say that McLaren and Hamilton did mislead the FIA in their statement right after the race. They accused them of breaching rule 151C that says:

Quote:
151. Breach of rules
Any of the following offences in addition to any offences
specifically referred to previously, shall be deemed to be a breach
of these rules :

[...]

c) Any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the
interests of any competition or to the interests of motor
sport generally.

As to why Hamilton "lied", I would not know.

That's what I don't get ... what was the point of lying? There must be areason for the team to lie and give instructions to LH to do the same, but I just can't get it.
Had they not "lied" and stuck to what we see from the transcripts, the sequence would be:

1.SC in
2. Trulli does soemthing wrong and gets out of the track
3. LH passes him because of that
4. Trulli is back and McLaren tells LH to let him pass again in order to do things "by the book"
5. McLaren and LH are not sure of what they have to do, and try to find out. In the meantime, Trulli finishes 3rd.

If I'm not mistaken, that's the sequence of events. With that information;
1. There should not be any penalty for McLaren for letting Trulli pass
2. There should not be any penalty for Trulli since the car in front (LH) let him pass (meaning he was going very slowly in order to let Trulli ahead, so that would not justify a SC regulation breach)
3. The penalty on LH/McLaren should be imposed only because they lied


.. am I getting this right?

and geez ... this is just after the first race!! I can't imagine how this season is going to work out if we won't know the positions of each race until 5 days later. The podium is going to be a joke since no one will be sure they actually finished in those positions.

rgds

ps: the fact that one day before the next GP we are still talking about the previous one is proof that something is not right  Sad
 
Boeing74741R
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:19 pm

Time to add my thoughts...

Firstly, stop with the "Ferrari International Assistance" crap please. It is not only old, it is also totally irrelevant as Ferrari has nothing to gain from this and the incident in question had nothing to do with Ferrari whatsoever, so it's a case of clutching at straws here from people looking for a scapegoat in McLaren/Hamilton's predicament.

The way I see it is that McLaren and Hamilton were both guilty of lying to the FIA over the incident so it was right that Trulli was reinstated into 3rd place. As for the punishment, I think the disqualification fits the crime here and whether there's a real need for the FIA to carry out further action I don't know, but glad to see that McLaren/Hamilton didn't get away with it lightly.

Regardless of all this, it doesn't really surprise me that the FIA are hitting McLaren hard on this considering events in recent years. Even though McLaren were clearly guilty of some things and even though the guilt of other actions can be disputed, there's no hiding from the fact that McLaren aren't exactly seen in a positive light within the FIA which naturally doesn't help them and that when they are well and truly guilty as charged they are punished accordingly.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 51):
But it's also true that lately, the FIA is more focused on hitting McLaren than advantaging Ferrari.

As I said, McLaren aren't ranked very highly in the FIA's books of late, but I am still not convinced at how Ferrari are deliberately gaining from all the things that McLaren have got themselves into in recent years.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 54):
Ferrari shouldn't even be in this conversation. And yet somehow it managed to show up

Agree with that and other comments made on this thread by yourself. Welcome to my Respected Users list.  thumbsup 
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:29 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 53):
I DO NOT think that Ferrari gained anything by this judgement

Well, they do in as much as the team that everyone would say are their main rivals are no longer 6 points ahead of them.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 60):
I'm confused.

We all are.

In the interests of transparency, the transcripts of the original inquiry should be released, then everyone can make their own mind up as to whether or not Hamilton "lied" or by how much the stewards were "misled".

The summary "justice" behind closed doors simply does the sport no good whatsoever. Even after this farce, we still face the distinct possibility that the result of this race might be changed again on April 14th. banghead 
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:08 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 63):
Well, they do in as much as the team that everyone would say are their main rivals are no longer 6 points ahead of them.

Right now, Ferrari's main rival is its own car, and the time they need to make it more competitive. We'll see at the end of the season if this decision helped Brawn, Renault, Ferrari or whoever is on top, but as for today, it helped on one but Trulli.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 63):
In the interests of transparency, the transcripts of the original inquiry should be released, then everyone can make their own mind up as to whether or not Hamilton "lied" or by how much the stewards were "misled".

Agreed. What I am still struggling to understand, assuming they did lie, is why they did. What could they possibly have gained by lying? Were they so sure that Trulli would be penalized?

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 62):
Regardless of all this, it doesn't really surprise me that the FIA are hitting McLaren hard on this considering events in recent years. Even though McLaren were clearly guilty of some things and even though the guilt of other actions can be disputed, there's no hiding from the fact that McLaren aren't exactly seen in a positive light within the FIA which naturally doesn't help them and that when they are well and truly guilty as charged they are punished accordingly.

Agree 100%

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 63):
face the distinct possibility that the result of this race might be changed again on April 14th.

... and that's the real problem. Races seem to no longer finish with the checkered flag, but days, even weeks later. Considering how big F1 is in world sports, and the money involved in this, I think this is truly unacceptable. This is not some neighbourhood 5 a side football chapionship!

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 62):
Agree with that and other comments made on this thread by yourself. Welcome to my Respected Users list.

 Smile  Smile  Smile
 
Alessandro
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Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:08 pm



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 57):
McLaren believe Trulli shouldn't have passed Hamilton...but wasn't Trulli in 3rd place anyway? What a screwed up start to the season. In a few weeks guess Brawn GP will also come under scrutiny for their diffusers and if they're stripped of their win..who will end up 1,2 and 3? Its sad to see race victories being decided off the track.

No I don´t believe that, they will have too much egg on their faces for letting it pass inspection before the race. The Trulli/Hamilton incident is a completely different thing.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:10 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 64):
... and that's the real problem. Races seem to no longer finish with the checkered flag, but days, even weeks later. Considering how big F1 is in world sports, and the money involved in this, I think this is truly unacceptable. This is not some neighbourhood 5 a side football chapionship!

Just like Americas cup in sailing, politics are very much alive in F1. Guess why Argentine
lost their GP after raising the Irish flag next to Eddie Irvine´s name?

[Edited 2009-04-02 16:13:06]
 
Alessandro
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Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:15 pm



Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 62):
Time to add my thoughts...

Firstly, stop with the "Ferrari International Assistance" crap please. It is not only old, it is also totally irrelevant as Ferrari has nothing to gain from this and the incident in question had nothing to do with Ferrari whatsoever, so it's a case of clutching at straws here from people looking for a scapegoat in McLaren/Hamilton's predicament.

The way I see it is that McLaren and Hamilton were both guilty of lying to the FIA over the incident so it was right that Trulli was reinstated into 3rd place. As for the punishment, I think the disqualification fits the crime here and whether there's a real need for the FIA to carry out further action I don't know, but glad to see that McLaren/Hamilton didn't get away with it lightly.

Regardless of all this, it doesn't really surprise me that the FIA are hitting McLaren hard on this considering events in recent years. Even though McLaren were clearly guilty of some things and even though the guilt of other actions can be disputed, there's no hiding from the fact that McLaren aren't exactly seen in a positive light within the FIA which naturally doesn't help them and that when they are well and truly guilty as charged they are punished accordingly.

For some odd reason the decisions often goes Ferrari´s way, this is comedy at it´s best,
FIA should´ve listen to the conversation between the car and team, not some journalists
point it out. Are they professional or not?
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:19 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 63):
In the interests of transparency, the transcripts of the original inquiry should be released, then everyone can make their own mind up as to whether or not Hamilton "lied" or by how much the stewards were "misled".

It seems the FIA are keen to release almost anything but that, what are they hiding?

The case appears to be based on Lewis saying something at the initial hearing that contradicts what he said at the post race press conference. That information was available to the stewards of that meeting at that time, why was it not acted on then by those present?
Why did it take an "appeal by media" campaign by Toyota and the recruiting of a "hostile" steward to get this result?*

Why did Trulli, who whichever way you look at it, overtook another competitor without direction from the safety car get his position back?

One might also ask how Toyota after presenting two illegal cars, got off so lightly?

The same thinking observer might as how Barrichello survived his one man demolition derby, judicially if not mechanically?

I am not against rules, nor am I against enforcing them.. I am very much for both consistency and justice appearing to be done, neither of which are hallmarks of FIA stewardship.

regards
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:45 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 61):
That's what i thought also ... in the other thread I belive I mentioned that during the race and that on TV they were then saying that Trulli went to 4th but then back to 3rd, according to the official timing screens they have (or whatever they are called)

Trulli fell off the black stuff and decided to go cross-country. While he was doing that, Hamilton passed him. Hamilton then let Trulli overtake him.

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 62):
The way I see it is that McLaren and Hamilton were both guilty of lying to the FIA over the incident so it was right that Trulli was reinstated into 3rd place.

Were you in the inquiry room at the time or have you read the transcript?  confused 

Trulli deserved to lose 3rd place for being silly enough to fall off the circuit while following the safety car.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 64):
assuming they did lie

That's a big assumption without any evidence being offered.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 68):
The same thinking observer might as how Barrichello survived his one man demolition derby, judicially if not mechanically?

Indeed, one is tempted to imagine what would have happened if that were Hamilton - more stop and goes than a taxi driver on Oxford Street in rush-hour.
 
Springbok747
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:04 am

Team: OK Lewis, you should need to make sure your delta is positive over the safety car line. After
the safety car line the delta doesnt matter but no overtaking. No overtaking.
LH: The Toyota went off in a line at the second corner, ..., is this OK?
Team: Understood, Lewis. Well confirm and get back to you.
LH: He was off the track. He went wide.
Team: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.
LH: OK.
LH: Hes slowed right down in front of me.
Team: OK, Lewis. Stay ahead for the time being. Stay ahead. We will get back to you. We are
talking to Charlie.
LH: I let him past already.
Team: OK, Lewis. Thats fine. Thats fine. Hold position. Hold position.
LH: Tell Charlie I already overtook him. I just let him past.
Team: I understand Lewis. We are checking. Now can we go to yellow G 5, yellow Golf 5.
LH: I dont have to let him past I should be able to take that position back, if he made a mistake.
Team: Yes, we understand Lewis. Lets just do it by the book. We are asking Charlie now. You are
in P4. If you hold this position. Just keep it together.
Team: OK Lewis, your KERS is full, your KERS is full. Just be aware. You can go back to black
F2, black Foxtrott 2.
LH: Any news from Charlie whether I can take it back or not.
Team: Still waiting on a response Lewis, still waiting.
Team: Lewis, work on your brakes please. Front brakes are cold.
Team: If we are able to use one KERS that would be good. If you deploy KERS please do so now.
Team: OK, Lewis, this is the last lap of the race. At the end of the lap the safety car will come in,
you just proceed over the line without overtaking, without overtaking. We are looking into the Trulli
thing, but just hold position.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8q27gzS4C4
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:49 am



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 69):
That's a big assumption without any evidence being offered

Considering we don´t know, any assumption is big. And the only point why I assumed they did was in order to ask the following question.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 64):
Agreed. What I am still struggling to understand, assuming they did lie, is why they did. What could they possibly have gained by lying? Were they so sure that Trulli would be penalized?

taking the "assuming they lied" out of the context I had written it changes the whole idea of what I was saying.


But we can assume that someone did do something wrong, whether it was McLaren ying or FIA doing whatever they want, something did happen that should'nt have.
 
flyboysp
Posts: 399
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:29 am

The results for practice 1 are in

Pos No Driver Team Time/Retired Gap Laps
1 16 Nico Rosberg Williams-Toyota 1:36.260 27
2 17 Kazuki Nakajima Williams-Toyota 1:36.305 0.045 25
3 22 Jenson Button Brawn-Mercedes 1:36.430 0.170 20
4 23 Rubens Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes 1:36.487 0.227 22
5 3 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:36.561 0.301 21
6 4 Kimi Räikkönen Ferrari 1:36.646 0.386 18
7 1 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:36.699 0.439 16
8 14 Mark Webber RBR-Renault 1:36.703 0.443 23
9 15 Sebastian Vettel RBR-Renault 1:36.747 0.487 25
10 10 Timo Glock Toyota 1:36.980 0.720 27
11 9 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:36.982 0.722 26
12 21 Giancarlo Fisichella Force India-Mercedes 1:37.025 0.765 20
13 5 Robert Kubica BMW Sauber 1:37.039 0.779 18
14 8 Nelsinho Piquet Renault 1:37.199 0.939 20
15 20 Adrian Sutil Force India-Mercedes 1:37.241 0.981 18
16 7 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:37.395 1.135 12
17 12 Sebastien Buemi STR-Ferrari 1:37.634 1.374 22
18 6 Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber 1:37.640 1.380 17
19 11 Sebastien Bourdais STR-Ferrari 1:38.022 1.762 19
20 2 Heikki Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 1:38.483 2.223 7
 
scrubbsywg
Posts: 1097
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:35 am

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:37 am

the biggest issue the FIA has with what happened is that they lied. And that it lead to a penalty for another competitor. From what i read, and what the radio transmissions say, it is clear that lewis and the team manager lied about orders to let trulli through.

kimi on fire during P1
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:34 am

So all are on their 2nd race on the engines? Vettel down 10 places on the qualification?

[Edited 2009-04-02 22:43:06]
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:01 am



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 70):
Team: Understood, Lewis. Well confirm and get back to you.

There is ONE bit of a transcript which is either wrong or meaningless. "Well confirm" - what the heck does that mean. "We'll confrim" is probable. What other ambiguities at best are present?

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 56):
Anyhow, about this incident .. I'm getting kind of lost here .. the penalty on LH is for lying mainly right? Why was it wrong for him to let Trulli pass, and why did they deny thay had done so?



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 60):
Why did Hamilton lie (if he lied that is)? Something doesn't quite fit here...did he lie to get a place on the podium? But that went to Trulli anyway (before all this crap started). And didn't Toyota withdraw their appeal? I'm confused.

When asked by Melbourne officials whether he had been purposely told by his team to allow the Toyota back past him again in Albert Park, the British ace had said no -- but a pits-to-car radio transmission released by the FIA as well as a media interview given by Hamilton after the chequered flag had fallen, subsequently proved that statement to be untrue. The governing body revealed that the stewards now 'felt strongly that they had been misled by the driver and his team manager (Dave Ryan)'.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 63):
In the interests of transparency, the transcripts of the original inquiry should be released, then everyone can make their own mind up as to whether or not Hamilton "lied" or by how much the stewards were "misled".

It is a bit of a jump to accuse the guy of lying based on second and third hand accounts of what he said, without ANY analysis of what questions he was being asked. In some of those settings he could have been asked more than one question at any given time and the answer recorded might NOT be to the question assumed to be the relevant one.

Did all those present at the session have English as a first language or an acceptable level of ESL? Quite probably not.

I have to say, that even if I had misspoken, if I were LH I would be suing for defamation with all these rather unseemly and very weakly backed accusations of just that.

I cannot think what McL are doing not creating a stink about it.

And we need not only that transcript, but we need a video to be sure who was there and what questions were really being answered.

Getting back to a question from me a while back and repeated by Scbriml, reply=69, Truli went off the black stuff if LH is to be believed, or did he lie about that too?

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 73):
the biggest issue the FIA has with what happened is that they lied. And that it lead to a penalty for another competitor. From what i read, and what the radio transmissions say, it is clear that lewis and the team manager lied about orders to let trulli through.

Exactly which orders were they? How could they lie about orders that did not arrive? Yet another bit of sloppy thinking????
 
sudden
Posts: 3936
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:20 pm

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:05 am



Quoting Flyboysp (Reply 72):
The results for practice 1 are in

Hm, wonder what FIA did to bring both Ferrari's ahead of the Mclaren's!?  Wink

Seriously guys,
As much as I agree/disagree with many of the posts above, lets not make FIA take control over these threads as well. That's actually what is happening, and we have been over this over and over again in the past.
In a way I'm just waiting to see who will be punished in Malaysia!? Maybe Sutil for taking a leak just before the race cause the mens room were actually "closed" when he went in.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:40 am

So final friday practice is done, 1st and 2nd for the red baron team,
Brawnies 6th and 7th but Vettel is inbetween so it was qualification they would be 5th and 6th.
Fishichella crashed on the wet track.
 
bill142
Posts: 7867
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:44 am



Quoting Sudden (Reply 76):
Maybe Sutil for taking a leak just before the race cause the mens room were actually "closed" when he went in.

I heard he went to use the ladies instead.
 
flyboysp
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:43 pm

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:49 am



Quoting Sudden (Reply 76):
Maybe Sutil for taking a leak just before the race cause the mens room were actually "closed" when he went in.

Actually as a result of Sutil taking a leak, his car will be deemed underweight and will be disqualified from the GP.

On a more serious note, the results from practice 2 are as follows

Pos No Driver Team Time/Retired Gap Laps
1 4 Kimi Räikkönen Ferrari 1:35.707 40
2 3 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:35.832 0.125 38
3 15 Sebastian Vettel RBR-Renault 1:35.954 0.247 40
4 16 Nico Rosberg Williams-Toyota 1:36.015 0.308 39
5 14 Mark Webber RBR-Renault 1:36.026 0.319 36
6 23 Rubens Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes 1:36.161 0.454 37
7 22 Jenson Button Brawn-Mercedes 1:36.254 0.547 31
8 17 Kazuki Nakajima Williams-Toyota 1:36.290 0.583 35
9 2 Heikki Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 1:36.397 0.690 40
10 8 Nelsinho Piquet Renault 1:36.401 0.694 35
11 1 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:36.515 0.808 30
12 9 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:36.516 0.809 34
13 12 Sebastien Buemi STR-Ferrari 1:36.628 0.921 32
14 10 Timo Glock Toyota 1:36.639 0.932 29
15 7 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:36.640 0.933 20
16 20 Adrian Sutil Force India-Mercedes 1:36.875 1.168 36
17 5 Robert Kubica BMW Sauber 1:37.267 1.560 38
18 11 Sebastien Bourdais STR-Ferrari 1:37.278 1.571 30
19 21 Giancarlo Fisichella Force India-Mercedes 1:37.432 1.725 27
20 6 Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber 1:37.930 2.223 37
 
sudden
Posts: 3936
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:20 pm

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:03 am



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 78):
I heard he went to use the ladies instead.

They should ban him for the rest of the season.

Quoting Flyboysp (Reply 79):
On a more serious note, the results from practice 2 are as follows

Hm, Heidfeld last and 2 seconds behind Kimi. Even during practise this is pretty much, and BMW should not be that far down.

Vettel is keeping the momentum up by the looks of things.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
 
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GrahamHill
Posts: 3021
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:08 am

I just read this morning that Dave Ryan has been suspended.

McLaren Mercedes statement in full:

Quote:
This morning, Dave Ryan was suspended from his position as Sporting Director of the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes team.

Team Principal Martin Whitmarsh said: “In my 20-odd years working for McLaren, I doubt if I’ve met a more dedicated individual than Davey. He's been an integral part of McLaren since 1974 and has played a crucial role in the team’s many world championship successes since that time."

“However, his role in the events of last Sunday, particularly his dealings with the FIA stewards, has caused serious repercussions for the team, for which we apologise. Therefore, I suspended him this morning and he has accepted this.”

 
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:44 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 75):
I have to say, that even if I had misspoken, if I were LH I would be suing for defamation with all these rather unseemly and very weakly backed accusations of just that.

Reading McLaren's latest statements, you would lose the law suit. It seems, coming from the accused team, that they were at fault and that they did lie, or mislead actually, the stewards.

I'm just wondering how some people are going to see this as a pro Ferrari move  Wink

More seriously, I still don't understand what reason they had to mislead the stewards. Had they said "yes, we did let him through cause we were unsure", what would have happened?

Quoting Sudden (Reply 76):
Hm, wonder what FIA did to bring both Ferrari's ahead of the Mclaren's!?

 Big grin Big grin Big grin

Quoting Flyboysp (Reply 79):
Pos No Driver Team Time/Retired Gap Laps
1 4 Kimi Räikkönen Ferrari 1:35.707 40
2 3 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:35.832 0.125 38
3 15 Sebastian Vettel RBR-Renault 1:35.954 0.247 40
4 16 Nico Rosberg Williams-Toyota 1:36.015 0.308 39
5 14 Mark Webber RBR-Renault 1:36.026 0.319 36
6 23 Rubens Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes 1:36.161 0.454 37
7 22 Jenson Button Brawn-Mercedes 1:36.254 0.547 31
8 17 Kazuki Nakajima Williams-Toyota 1:36.290 0.583 35
9 2 Heikki Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 1:36.397 0.690 40
10 8 Nelsinho Piquet Renault 1:36.401 0.694 35
11 1 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:36.515 0.808 30
12 9 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:36.516 0.809 34
13 12 Sebastien Buemi STR-Ferrari 1:36.628 0.921 32
14 10 Timo Glock Toyota 1:36.639 0.932 29
15 7 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:36.640 0.933 20
16 20 Adrian Sutil Force India-Mercedes 1:36.875 1.168 36
17 5 Robert Kubica BMW Sauber 1:37.267 1.560 38
18 11 Sebastien Bourdais STR-Ferrari 1:37.278 1.571 30
19 21 Giancarlo Fisichella Force India-Mercedes 1:37.432 1.725 27
20 6 Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber 1:37.930 2.223 37

Prectices mean nothing in regards to the actual race ... but it's good to see the F's on top  Smile
 
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GrahamHill
Posts: 3021
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:10 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 83):
but it's good to see the F's on top

It's a track that suits them better.

We'll see what they do in the qualifying session.
 
sudden
Posts: 3936
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:20 pm

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:14 am



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 82):
McLaren Embarrassed by events in Melborne

By the looks of things, Mclaren management need to have a closer look at their staff, cause now they are kicking another one to the kerb.
So with that in mind, it looks more like Mclaren's own people are hurting them, and FIA is, of course, there to grab every opportunity.

Drivers quotes from practise:
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/4/9125.html


Aim for the sky!
Sudden
 
scrubbsywg
Posts: 1097
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:35 am

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:21 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 75):
Exactly which orders were they? How could they lie about orders that did not arrive? Yet another bit of sloppy thinking????

from the FIA statement:

Quote:
"During the hearing, held approximately one hour after the end of the race, the Stewards and the Race Director questioned Lewis Hamilton and his Team Manager David Ryan specifically about whether there had been an instruction given to Hamilton to allow Trulli to overtake. Both the driver and the Team Manager stated that no such instruction had been given."

From the radio transmissions:

Quote:
McLaren pitwall: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.

Hamilton: Okay.

Hamilton: He's slowed right down in front of me.

how is that sloppy????
 
User avatar
EZEIZA
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Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:22 am



Quoting Sudden (Reply 85):
So with that in mind, it looks more like Mclaren's own people are hurting them, and FIA is, of course, there to grab every opportunity.

If there is one team that needs to be extra careful, that's McLaren after the spying scandal. So far, not so good.
It's like Maradona in the 1994 World Cup .. everyone knew he was going to be checked for drugs, and when they did check (and found them), people started sayig that it was FIFA's fault for going after him, when the point is that if he does nothing wrong, then who cares what FIFA does? The same goes for McLaren. Yes, FIA is up to theor neck, but if they are clean, FIA can investigate all they want.

rgds
 
bill142
Posts: 7867
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:31 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 83):

I'm just wondering how some people are going to see this as a pro Ferrari move

Considering Ferrari stand to gain nothing out of the whole saga, I doubt anyone will. And comments so far have clearly been made light heartedly.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 83):
More seriously, I still don't understand what reason they had to mislead the stewards. Had they said "yes, we did let him through cause we were unsure", what would have happened?

The protest would probably have been thrown out at worst. No one really knows what Dave Ryans rationale for telling Hamilton to shut up and not bring it up was, but it's pretty clear that it's not worth one point.
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:35 pm

Barrichello to drop five places down grid because he had to change his gear box  Sad

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090403133444.shtml
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:51 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 83):

Quoting Baroque (Reply 75):
I have to say, that even if I had misspoken, if I were LH I would be suing for defamation with all these rather unseemly and very weakly backed accusations of just that.

Reading McLaren's latest statements, you would lose the law suit. It seems, coming from the accused team, that they were at fault and that they did lie, or mislead actually, the stewards.

There has not been a post showing where LH said something that was untrue. We need the questions and the answers and we do not seem to have either so I do not know how you are so confident E. That whole article that Bill cites avoids telling us what the questions were. All we have is a rather odd McL synopsis of a half of the conversation.

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 86):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 75):
Exactly which orders were they? How could they lie about orders that did not arrive? Yet another bit of sloppy thinking????

from the FIA statement:

Quote:
"During the hearing, held approximately one hour after the end of the race, the Stewards and the Race Director questioned Lewis Hamilton and his Team Manager David Ryan specifically about whether there had been an instruction given to Hamilton to allow Trulli to overtake. Both the driver and the Team Manager stated that no such instruction had been given."

From the radio transmissions:

Quote:
McLaren pitwall: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.

Hamilton: Okay.

Hamilton: He's slowed right down in front of me.

how is that sloppy????

And you don't know what is sloppy about that?

How the ******* could LH let the Toyota through when it was ahead of him? IN FRONT OF ME. Do we agree what that means? How it be a valid instruction when it was to do something that has already happened. Has anyone told us EXACTLY what was asked? That quoted para definitely does not do so. It asks about a situation that was not operative, so how in heck were they to give a sensible answer?

Between answering different questions and questions referring to different times, confusion reigns supreme.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:09 pm

Still all second hand he said without what the question

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7980593.stm
Hamilton had told stewards he had not been told to allow Trulli to pass him when the opposite was true, a fact borne out by team radio transmissions.

"I could not tell you how sorry I am for the embarrassment," Hamilton, the youngest driver to become world champion, told a news conference after his opening practice sessions in Sepang on Friday.


Why would he say that when he HAD let him pass? Unless of course that was not exactly what the question was? And according to the transcript, he had not been told WHEN the pass took place. Was that the question? "Had you been told to allow him to pass when he passed you?" That would seem to be a NO.
 
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EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:35 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 90):
There has not been a post showing where LH said something that was untrue. We need the questions and the answers and we do not seem to have either so I do not know how you are so confident E. That whole article that Bill cites avoids telling us what the questions were. All we have is a rather odd McL synopsis of a half of the conversation.

I'm not blaming this one on LH. Lied or misled or whatever he said, he had tram instructions. But why would Mclaren suspend Ryan? They must have done or said something wrong. What and why they did it I have no idea.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 90):
How the ******* could LH let the Toyota through when it was ahead of him? IN FRONT OF ME. Do we agree what that means?



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 70):

LH: The Toyota went off in a line at the second corner, ..., is this OK?
Team: Understood, Lewis. Well confirm and get back to you.
LH: He was off the track. He went wide.
Team: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.
LH: OK.
LH: Hes slowed right down in front of me.
Team: OK, Lewis. Stay ahead for the time being. Stay ahead. We will get back to you. We are
talking to Charlie.
LH: I let him past already.


The way I read it is that Trulli went wide, LH passed him and then the team tells LH to let Trulli pass again. I'm going to guess here, but when LH says "He slowed right in front of me" could mean that he was still explaining why he overtook him?

I agree though that specifically that part of the transcript does sound wierd
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:37 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 75):
Getting back to a question from me a while back and repeated by Scbriml, reply=69, Truli went off the black stuff if LH is to be believed, or did he lie about that too?

Of this there is no doubt - the BBC evening news last night showed on-board footage from Trulli's car as he goes off the track and over the grass. As the tracks curves left while he ploughs straight ahead, Hamilton's McLaren can be seen on the edge of the shot following the more conventional line for the corner.

There's was (don't know if it's still there) a "video" of Toyota's radio transmissions on YouTube where Trulli tells the team he'd gone off - he & they were also unclear as to whether they were allowed to take the position back.

What is clear through all this is that the regulations and/or the stewards policing of those regulations are so questionable that two highly professional teams don't know where they stand when a slightly irregular situation comes about.  sarcastic 
 
legoguy
Posts: 2982
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:59 pm

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:05 pm

This link contains a video clip of the moment Hamilton passed Trulli;

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/03/2...but-fourth-would-have-been-fairer/

I'm not sure what to think of the whole thing. I don't understand however that it may take until June for the FIA to sanction Hamilton further which is just insane. If they are to punish him, do it now, not half way through the season once they've accessed his racing form. Personally I think that losing the 6 points he earned at Australia was bad enough.

Anybdy see Raikkonens fire close to the end of the first practise. The fire extinguisher went off just as he was about to go around the last corner. It can't have been to comfortable for the Finn who unstrapped himself whilst driving down the pitlane with the fire extinguishing fluid and smoke streaming from his Ferrari cockpit.
 
BlueElephant
Topic Author
Posts: 1662
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:06 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 92):
I'm not blaming this one on LH. Lied or misled or whatever he said, he had tram instructions. But why would Mclaren suspend Ryan? They must have done or said something wrong. What and why they did it I have no idea.

I spent some of the morning trying to figure this whole situation out. And it seems overnight that David Ryan admitted to telling Lewis to tell the stewards that the team didn't give him instructions to pass Trulli. And thats why McLaren suspended Ryan...because he unneccisarily got the team in hot water...for essentially no reason.

Lewis gave his account of the story here: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74203 in a public apology. From what he said (and I doubt he'd be lying)...In the short time he had between the end of the race and the inquiry with the FIA, while waiting for Trulli, he was instructed by Ryan...to act in that manner. He said he didn't like doing it at the time, but he was following his teams instructions. Lewis also made reference that he thought it was a dumb move and that the worst that SHOULD have happened was him getting 4th instead of 3rd.

I honestly believe if McLaren or any team has done something wrong..they should be punished...as they have been. But I still can't help feel that had it been a certain other team that they'd have got away with a fine. (especially if they were in the points)

Anyway....on to Malaysia...I hope his spirits are that bad of a shape and he drives very well in Malaysia under his favorite conditions  Smile

I also hope the FIA doesn't escalate this matter (unneccesarily at this point in my opinion) and that we can have a much less scandalous season. (yeah right like thats likely to happen Sad)
 
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EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:25 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 93):
What is clear through all this is that the regulations and/or the stewards policing of those regulations are so questionable that two highly professional teams don't know where they stand when a slightly irregular situation comes about. sarcastic

Could not agree more. In fact, wasn't it Massa during the first SC that almost stopped beside the SC to ask him what he was supposed to do? Terrible

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 94):
This link contains a video clip of the moment Hamilton passed Trulli;

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/03/2...irer/

Interesting feed ... honestly, I don't see anything wrong with either Trulli nor LH. It just looks like Trulli went wide and LH was right to pass him. Everything else that came after that just doesn't make any sense. If the rules are that LH had to let Trulli pass again, he did so based on team orders; orders that were given because they had no clue as to what they had to do, which is not Mclaren's fault. Why did they mislead the stewards? what's the point of that?
Another interesting thing of the video is the sun .. man it must not be easy to drive at 300kph with the sun so low and hitting straight into your face.

rgds
 
waterpolodan
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Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:46 pm

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:26 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 91):


I don't know why you're still in a rage that Mclaren is being unfairly persecuted here. What happened was that Mclaren lied, they admitted it, Lewis admitted it, and the FIA punished them for it. If that is the case, why are you still calling for transcripts and screaming bloody conspiracy? Sure, maybe you can claim the penalty is overly harsh, but you have to remember that Mclaren is already in hot water with the FIA in regards to their honesty after the spying scandal. You're not making very much senes here, and I don't know what's not clear about the radio transmissions-

Quote:

Lewis Hamilton: The Toyota went off in the second to last corner I overtook him is that OK?

PP: Understood, Lewis. We'll confirm and get back to you.

LH: He was off the track. He went wide.

PP: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.

LH: OK.

(Hamilton yields to Trulli, unseen on TV screens)

LH: He's slowed right down in front of me.

PP: OK, Lewis. Stay ahead for the time being. Stay ahead. We'll get back to you. We're talking to Charlie (Whiting, race director).

LH: I've let him past already.

PP: OK, Lewis. That's fine. That's fine. Hold position. Hold position.

Lewis passes Trulli while Trulli is on the grass, and then asks the team if he has to let him back ahead. The team says yes, let him go through, so Lewis does. Then, it seems Trulli is having a conversation of his own with his team about whether he has to yield 3rd place to Hammy, so he slows dramatically, hoping hammy will go past. That is my assumption of why hammy says "He's slowed right down in front of me", but lewis mantains 4th behind trulli anyway. The team thinks maybe lewis repassed Trulli, but he hasn't, so that's why they say "stay ahead for the time being" but lewis then corrects them by saying "I've let him past already". Pretty clear cut, though we could use Trulli's radio transcript to confrim that he slowed again after lewis let him past in the hope that lewis would retake the position.
 
waterpolodan
Posts: 1628
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:46 pm

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:39 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 90):
How the ******* could LH let the Toyota through when it was ahead of him?

It wasn't, read my post above. This is what happened in a very basic way, and what Mclaren wanted the FIA to think as well- Trulli goes off, so Hammy moves to 3rd. However, Trulli is right behind LH and LH doesn't know if he needs to let him through. He does so at the request of the team by slowing dramatically, so Trulli goes through and thinks LH had a mechanical problem, as he's stated in interviews. Trulli then realizes LH is fine, so he slows as well, trying to let LH back past. LH doesn't pass Trulli, however, so LH remains in 4th across the line. After the race, Mclaren goes to the FIA and claims that LH hadn't been told to slow and let Trulli through, rather they claimed that Trulli had just retaken 3rd after his off of his own accord. Their motive for doing this was so that he'd be punished for passing under the safety car, which is exactly what happened, promoting LH to 3rd. Once Trulli came forward and told the FIA that LH had let him past, they realized this conflicted with what they'd been told by Dave Ryan of Mclaren, so they reviewed the radio transmissions and found that Mclaren had indeed ordered that LH slow and allow trulli through, and thus they are punished for playing games with the FIA.

Seriously, what isn't clear about that? The team admits that is how it happened, the radio transmissions and videos bear that out, I don't know what else to say. This has nothing to do with a Ferrari conspiracy or Mclaren witch hunt, rather it has everything to do with Mclaren lying to the FIA in the hope that they could get Trulli booted out of 3rd place. In that way, I am completely disgusted with Mclaren, because LH drove a truly fantastic race, and he lost well deserved points because they told him to lie. Who knows what the penalty would have been had Ferrari been the team involved, but that's irrelevant. Mclaren IS at fault here. Baroque, why would they accept blame if they did nothing wrong???
 
waterpolodan
Posts: 1628
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:43 pm

One last thought from me- It must have been a very hasty decision by Dave Ryan to lie and tell LH to lie as well, because if he'd thought things through, he'd know the FIA would have full access to the radio transmission and could easily prove that Mclaren was being dishonest. I can only assume that he figured that they would just penalize Trulli and close the case, but when Trulli came forward all that changed.

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