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baroque
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:59 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 96):
Interesting feed ... honestly, I don't see anything wrong with either Trulli nor LH. It just looks like Trulli went wide and LH was right to pass him. Everything else that came after that just doesn't make any sense.

We definitely agree then. It is all very odd.

Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 97):
Lewis passes Trulli while Trulli is on the grass, and then asks the team if he has to let him back ahead. The team says yes, let him go through, so Lewis does.

No it doesn't, it first says stay ahead, and then he cannot. When the team instructions say let him pass. LH replies Trulli has already passed.

Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 98):
After the race, Mclaren goes to the FIA and claims that LH hadn't been told to slow and let Trulli through, rather they claimed that Trulli had just retaken 3rd after his off of his own accord.

IF that is what they did it was a bit daft, but again we just do not know WHAT they were asked. And if they answered had he not been told to slow at the time Trulli passed, it appears that is correct. And they are not daft enough to forget the tape of the conversation although they may well have forgotten who said what and more importantly EXACTLY when.

Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 98):
Seriously, what isn't clear about that? T

Check again, your accounts are NOT what is on the transcipt so some things WADR are apparently not so clear to you. It still comes down to what WAS the question about which event and to what time does the question relate.

Other bits missing are what advice they had as to what McL should do after Trulli went bush. We do know he went bush and that McL did not have a clue. I suppose that LH let him pass because he was worried that he was not allowed to pass even when Trulli was not on the black stuff.

There is a reason why courts do not accept heresay, and we are getting an example in spades!!!
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:25 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 100):
IF that is what they did it was a bit daft,

Baroque...you and I are both McLaren fans, but we gotta except that they Lied.... David Ryan asked Hamilton to lie and both are at fault.

If that wasn't the case then McLaren wouldn't have issued so many statements in the last 24 hours.

The worst that SHOULD have happen...was that Hamilton was given 4th and Trulli 3rd...But this matter is hopefully over. Should the FIA make the stupid decision to punish Hamilton and McLaren further...then we'll have something to argue about, because in my mind McLaren suspended the man responsible, issued a number of public apologies and accepted their penalty without bothering to appeal it.

Lets just move on and hope McLaren score well here without any issues.

(Watch the FIA decide to suspend Hamilton for Malaysia tonight Sad )
 
baroque
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:34 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 101):
David Ryan asked Hamilton to lie and both are at fault.

If it was that simple  checkmark  But I will bet it was not. I presume this meeting took place after nearly two hours of tense racing. I know those guys are remarkable, but to expect them to have total recall of details AND get them in order seems a bit much. And we still do not know what the question was. I am guessing that McL were embarrassed because they made a protest on grounds that were not correct. During the race, they did not appear to know how to interpret the rules. It is not that clear even now what should be done for a side trip under a yellow. So making an incorrect protest would not be quite the same as lying if confusion was reigning supreme, as it appears it was, and still is.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 101):
Lets just move on and hope McLaren score well here without any issues.

Indeedy.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 101):
(Watch the FIA decide to suspend Hamilton for Malaysia tonight Sad )

At least neither of us will be surprised.  Yeah sure
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:02 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 101):
Watch the FIA decide to suspend Hamilton for Malaysia tonight

If this happens, that would be really really really unfair.
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:04 pm

Spying, Lying ... what next "ying" should we expect from the silver arrows?  cheeky 

(I'm kidding by the way)
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:08 pm

Alonso in the Spanish Press:

"It's not the first time they lie" talking about Mclaren

He says it reminds him of 2007 and that they "have lied to the stewards in the past, and sooner or later they had to be sancioned"

(article in spanish only, sorry)

http://www.as.com/motor/articulo/alo...ten/dasmot/20090403dasdasmot_6/Tes

He's not biased though  

[Edited 2009-04-03 09:09:23]
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:58 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 105):
He's not biased though

We all know his experience with McLaren did not end very well. I like Alonso, but if I were him, I would be quiet on anything concerning McLaren.

He said he should be 90% fit for tomorrow's qualifying session, so he should be focusing on getting the last 10% instead  Wink
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:12 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 102):
If it was that simple

Baroque, it is that simple I'm afraid. There are so many things talking against Mclaren here. Such as Martin's very long statement about why he suspended Ryan, and Hamilton's very long excuse towards the fans and FIA.
Both Martin and Lewis would not have done this if there wasn't not solid evidence against them.

I hope we can forget this at focus on a (what I hope to be a) great race weekend.

Rubens changed his gearbox and got a 5 place grid penalty. Will be nice to see how Brawn GP will handle on this track. KERS seem to have an advantage here though.

Wonder if Renault have changed there diffuser yet as their new one was ready already for the previous race our commentator said.


Aim for the sky!
Sudden
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FX772LRF
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:14 pm

I'm not sure if it's been discussed, but what's up with McLaren's pace? They should be kicking ass already!

-FX772LRF
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sudden
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:24 pm



Quoting FX772LRF (Reply 108):
I'm not sure if it's been discussed, but what's up with McLaren's pace? They should be kicking ass already!

To start with, welcome to Anet.
Mclaren is off the pace as their cars are performing very well. This have been stated by Mclaren themselfs before the season started, as they knew then already that they would not be able to keep up with the frontrunners.
However, they are not really that far off the space though.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!
 
FX772LRF
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:28 pm



Quoting Sudden (Reply 109):
To start with, welcome to Anet.

Thank you! This is actually my 3rd username.
Cleared to IAH via CLL 076 radial/BAZBL/RIICE3, up to 3k, 7k in 10, departure on 134.3, squawk 4676, Colgan 9581.
 
t1210s
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:40 pm



Quoting Sudden (Reply 107):
KERS seem to have an advantage here though

dont know if kers paid much advantage to kimi his failed twice
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:51 pm

Guys, for some reason I can't seem to find the proper Q time and race time ... could someone confirm what time the Qualis are and the race GMT?

thanks!!
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
t1210s
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:55 pm

q time 0900hrs BST
race time 0900hrs BST
these are tv times race starts 1hr after programme starts so 1000hrsBST
if that helps
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BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:26 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 112):
Guys, for some reason I can't seem to find the proper Q time and race time ... could someone confirm what time the Qualis are and the race GMT?

I think for Us...it's at 5am Local.
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:29 pm



Quoting T1210s (Reply 111):
dont know if kers paid much advantage to kimi his failed twice

This is a totally different track then in Australia, and although the KERS on Kimi's car has some issues, he was fast when it worked properly.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:46 pm



Quoting T1210s (Reply 113):
q time 0900hrs BST
race time 0900hrs BST
these are tv times race starts 1hr after programme starts so 1000hrsBST
if that helps



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 114):
I think for Us...it's at 5am Local.

Thanks to both  Smile

Very bad time actually. Melbourne was at 3am which is still ok, but at 5 is just too late and too early at the same time. I'll tape it and watch it a bit later without knwoing the result of the race
(I had to do the same on the final race when Kimi won the WDC ... imagine wathcing that race 6 hours later and keepinog off internet, tv and anything that would tell me the result! Big grin )
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:36 pm

It's at 10 am in Ireland, so it's decent time for me  Smile

And the there will be the 1000 km of Barcelona in the afternoon (LMS) and St Petersburg in the evening (ALMS)! What a nice Sunday!!
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:09 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 105):
"It's not the first time they lie" talking about Mclaren
He says it reminds him of 2007 and that they "have lied to the stewards in the past, and sooner or later they had to be sancioned"

This is a big statement from the squirmy little prat that was happy to go along with the whole StepneyGate issue until he thought he could improve his position by blackmailing his employer.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 105):
He's not biased though

You think?

I am an F1 fan first and foremost but if a team fan, likely Williams then McLaren.
IMHO McLaren have not done right and been sanctioned for it.
I do not believe the FIA should hang the threat of further WMSC action, if they feel like, it over their heads. If you have grounds do it now or get over it.

I also do not understand how Trulli who did violate the rules got his place back, despite whatever McLaren might have done.

I guess the attitude that McLaren "lied" causing another driver to lose his place prevails because the myopic old farts that make up the body of stewards were too thick or just plain stupid to see that Trulli had broken the rules on their own.

The list of transgressions missed by FIA race officials continually grows as they focus on their quest to destroy one team... granted a team that often does itself no favours.

Regards
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
waterpolodan
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:16 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 100):
No it doesn't, it first says stay ahead, and then he cannot. When the team instructions say let him pass. LH replies Trulli has already passed.

Honestly, this is the most clear cut part of this whole thing. Trulli goes off... Team says "let him take back 3rd!" Hammy lets him by. Trulli slows again for some reason after already going into 3rd, Mclaren thinks that means Hammy passed Trulli but didn't, and tells him to hold 3rd, but LH tells them Trulli is already ahead. That's how they crossed the line. I'm not just guessing or interpreting here, this is exactly what happened. I'm sorry you're having a tough time getting the sequence of this right.

As for the rest of your argument, every party involved basically agrees that the question was basically, "Did you order LH to allow Trulli past?", and both Ryan and Hamilton answered, "No", which was a lie. The exact wording could have been different, but if Mclaren felt that they had been confused by the FIA's line of questioning, they would have said so rather than instantly accepting blame and suspending Ryan. There was no "heat of the moment" ambiguity or confusion, that was the question and that was the answer. You need to let this go, Mclaren lie to gain an advantage, because every team does. I know some people have a hard time believing that teams besides Ferrari can cheat, but this is more proof that it is universal in the sport.
 
Alessandro
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:56 am

So, the two fastest times where set yesterday on training, the "diffuser" teams seem to be in the top yet again, we´ll see.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
t1210s
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:58 am

Third Practice
Saturday, 4 April 2009
Position Country Driver Car number Team Fastest Lap
1 germany Nico Rosberg 16 Williams-Toyota 1:35.940
2 australia Mark Webber 14 Red Bull-Renault 1:36.048
3 brazil Felipe Massa 3 Ferrari 1:36.089
4 italy Jarno Trulli 9 Toyota 1:36.132
5 germany Timo Glock 10 Toyota 1:36.189
6 germany Sebastian Vettel 15 Red Bull-Renault 1:36.194
7 finland Kimi Raikkonen 4 Ferrari 1:36.322
8 japan Kazuki Nakajima 17 Williams-Toyota 1:36.325
9 brazil Rubens Barrichello 23 Brawn-Mercedes 1:36.519
10 great britain Jenson Button 22 Brawn-Mercedes 1:36.541
11 poland Robert Kubica 5 BMW Sauber 1:36.563
12 great britain Lewis Hamilton 1 McLaren-Mercedes 1:36.657
13 finland Heikki Kovalainen 2 McLaren-Mercedes 1:36.742
14 spain Fernando Alonso 7 Renault 1:37.004
15 germany Nick Heidfeld 6 BMW Sauber 1:37.026
16 brazil Nelson Piquet Jr 8 Renault 1:37.032
17 germany Adrian Sutil 20 Force India-Mercedes 1:37.118
18 switzerland Sebastien Buemi 12 Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1:37.282
19 france Sebastien Bourdais 11 Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1:37.322
20 italy Giancarlo Fisichella 21 Force India-Mercedes 1:37.398
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VC-10
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:08 am

What concerns me about the McLaren affair is that if Hamilton is so remorseful when did he only come clean AFTER the game was up, he has had all week to tell the truth.
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:22 am

Massa 16th and out of Q2! What happened?
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
t1210s
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:24 am

what a cock up by ferrari
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Springbok747
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:38 am

Trust Ferrari to screw up. This is going to be a nightmare season.
אני תומך בישראל
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:48 am



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 123):
Massa 16th and out of Q2! What happened?

Ferrari screwed that one up...Massa should have stayed out.

Hamilton and Kovalainen out in Q2 in 13 and 14.

Remember Barichello gets 5 places off his grid spot and Vettel 10.
 
t1210s
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:08 am

does anyone know roughly what time the fuel weight is released
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Stealthz
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:08 am

Ferrari International Assistance are going to have to work hard to achieve their aims of World Championship domination for the Red team.... might have to find a new whipping boy as well!  Wink

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:27 am

Really weird. Ferrari and Massa thought they could get through to Q2 with their current time, but obviously, that was not enough.

Not really smart, to say the least...
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
na
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:52 am



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 128):
Ferrari International Assistance are going to have to work hard to achieve their aims of World Championship domination for the Red team.... might have to find a new whipping boy as well!

 yawn   tombstone   redflag 

And the McLaren spies did a very bad job this winter, too.

Ferrari is the major disappointment so far for me. Why didnt they call Brawn back? They never had a better man at the helm of the tactics and technics department, and let him go. That was stupid, to say the least.
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:04 am



Quoting T1210s (Reply 127):
does anyone know roughly what time the fuel weight is released

I receive email updates from Formula1.com and the AGP weights were announced in an email sent approx 5:30AM AEST Sunday so I would expect them early Sunday Malaysian time.

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:23 am



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 128):
Ferrari International Assistance are going to have to work hard to achieve their aims of World Championship domination for the Red team..

I'm going to change it to F******* Incredibly Annoying

Back to racing, I haven't seen the Quali ... felll asleep honestly, but the results are so not encouraging for Ferrari or Mclaren or Reanult. We'll see how the race goes but if this ends like it looks like it will, it would be a confirmation of Brawn as well as a confirmation that the "big" teams have no clue of how to make their cars go faster than a taxi.
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Alessandro
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:33 am

EZ, the qualification was very close as in Melbourne. Exciting to say the least, I wonder if
McLaren will score points at this race? Toyota seem have their zodiac line up perfectly, 2nd and 3rd in qualification and their 3rd spot in Melbourne back.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:56 am



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 123):
Massa 16th and out of Q2! What happened?



Quoting T1210s (Reply 124):
what a cock up by ferrari



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 125):
Trust Ferrari to screw up. This is going to be a nightmare season

Massa and his engineer thought they were safe, and therefore kept Massa in the pit. What I find really odd is the fact that Ferrari have been in this business for so many years, and then they let this happen. Brawn or no Brawn, they should know better.

Kimi 9th but running without KERS.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 128):
Ferrari International Assistance

And it was probably their fault that none of the Mclaren's got through to Q2.

About KERS,
If one quali without it, are they then allowed to use i during the race? Anyone knows how the ruling of KERS goes?

On the 14th of April the verdict on the diffuser will come that Brawn GP, Toyota and some other teams are using.
It will most likely be ok which will see the rest of the grid running with it in no time.

Well done to Button!
I like to see him up there as first he was shadowed by Hamilton when he came in to F1, but have now managed to get up there and show that he still got it going.
Well done.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!
 
na
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:03 pm

I wonder what is going on with McLaren. One scandal after the other. Spies, lies, and dismasking audiotapes. The Mercedes Motorsport Boss Haug calls it "a black day", another expert "no one will believe Hamilton anymore". Sad.

In 35 years of closely watching F1 I´ve never seen favourites and champions stumpling as much as McLaren and Ferrari in the first two events this year, and never seen last years nobodies rocketing skyhigh like Brawn. But I´m also sure it wont remain this way this season.
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:07 pm



Quoting Sudden (Reply 134):
And it was probably their fault that none of the Mclaren's got through to Q2.

Hell no, they did that all on their own.

I guess the hidden serious point in my earlier attempt at humour is that we will soon find if there is any truth to the "Ferrari International Assistance" thing if mysterious or suspect rulings begin to be made against other teams.

Cheers

PS if Ferrari keep making blunders like the one in Q1 with Massa they may be beyond the help of "Ferrari International Assistance"
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
na
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:39 pm



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 136):
Hell no, they did that all on their own.

I agree, McLie  Wink did it all the mistakes on their own today, again.

What bugs me is the total failure of Ferrari after the promising first training sessions. That reminds me of the chaotic "grande casino" times before Schuhmacher, Todt and Brawn took over Italy´s pride. I wonder, what the record champion has been doing today  scratchchin  . He certainly didnt assist his team this time as he should have done.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1500
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:41 pm



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 128):
Ferrari International Assistance are going to have to work hard to achieve their aims of World Championship domination for the Red team.... might have to find a new whipping boy as well!

Sad. Just sad on your part, period.  Yeah sure

Quoting Na (Reply 135):
In 35 years of closely watching F1 I´ve never seen favourites and champions stumpling as much as McLaren and Ferrari in the first two events this year, and never seen last years nobodies rocketing skyhigh like Brawn. But I´m also sure it wont remain this way this season.

I'm sure it won't once all the other teams get their acts together, most notably Ferrari and McLaren. Although in the grand scheme of things it is comical seeing McLaren writing their own funeral already - they really do not do themselves any favours at times regardless of whether the FIA are leading a McLaren witch hunt or not, and they expect public sympathy?

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 136):
I guess the hidden serious point in my earlier attempt at humour is that we will soon find if there is any truth to the "Ferrari International Assistance" thing if mysterious or suspect rulings begin to be made against other teams.

Even if there was, it will all be in vain if Ferrari score no points like they did in the last race and hopefully it will put that stupid myth to bed once and for all, hence why I was angry to read that some clever clogs decided to dig it up again when Trulli had been reinstated to 3rd place and sanctions brought against McLaren. Ferrari gained nothing, and if anything, both McLaren and Ferrari are on equal grounds for tomorrow's race...zero points. Hardly earth-shattering isn't it?

At the end of the day, McLaren were found guilty, Hamilton and McLaren were punished, and McLaren went one step further and suspended the guy (Dave Ryan) who was ultimately responsible, so it does make me smile a bit to see McLaren not burying their heads in the sand over it.
 
Alessandro
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:55 pm



Quoting Na (Reply 135):
I wonder what is going on with McLaren. One scandal after the other. Spies, lies, and dismasking audiotapes. The Mercedes Motorsport Boss Haug calls it "a black day", another expert "no one will believe Hamilton anymore". Sad.

In 35 years of closely watching F1 I´ve never seen favourites and champions stumpling as much as McLaren and Ferrari in the first two events this year, and never seen last years nobodies rocketing skyhigh like Brawn. But I´m also sure it wont remain this way this season.

Red Baron was disqualified one year, so this isn´t something new. One race he almost started a fight with DC (I think it was), Ferrari team had to hold him back.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:57 pm



Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 138):
Sad. Just sad on your part, period.

Did you miss the  Wink ?
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
na
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Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:09 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 139):
One race he almost started a fight with DC (I think it was), Ferrari team had to hold him back.

I remember that, DC almost killed him by driving like his grandma on the middle of the road in pouring rain.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1500
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:20 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 139):
Red Baron was disqualified one year, so this isn´t something new. One race he almost started a fight with DC (I think it was), Ferrari team had to hold him back.

That would be the 1998 Belgian Grand Prix after Schumacher crashed into DC under very wet weather trying to lap him.
 
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EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:57 pm



Quoting Na (Reply 141):
I remember that, DC almost killed him by driving like his grandma on the middle of the road in pouring rain.



Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 142):
That would be the 1998 Belgian Grand Prix after Schumacher crashed into DC under very wet weather trying to lap him.

Few times have I seen a driver so pissed off after a race ... and he had every right to be. DC was seriously driving like a public bus at rush hour. There was no need to slow down so much, and that cost MS one of those great "rain" victories.

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 138):
I'm sure it won't once all the other teams get their acts together, most notably Ferrari and McLaren

What I don't understand, (probably because I am not much of a "pre season testing" fan so I don't follow much during the break) is how two teams like Ferrari and Mclaren, with the budgets and testing they do can be so behind. Because, ok, Brawn is somewhat of a surprise, but what about the rest? The two big ones are closer to what Minardi was!
Someone did not do heir job properly. Hopefully they will get their act together and the predictions of this being an open-for-all season will become true, but so far it's a disgrace to see them in the situation they are.

Quoting Sudden (Reply 134):
Massa and his engineer thought they were safe, and therefore kept Massa in the pit. What I find really odd is the fact that Ferrari have been in this business for so many years, and then they let this happen

 checkmark 

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 136):
I guess the hidden serious point in my earlier attempt at humour is that we will soon find if there is any truth to the "Ferrari International Assistance" thing if mysterious or suspect rulings begin to be made against other teams.

Stop guessing. There is no such thing and if anything, so far the only one that has been "helped" is Trulli.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 3:44 pm



Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 119):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 100):
No it doesn't, it first says stay ahead, and then he cannot. When the team instructions say let him pass. LH replies Trulli has already passed.

Honestly, this is the most clear cut part of this whole thing. Trulli goes off... Team says "let him take back 3rd!" Hammy lets him by. Trulli slows again for some reason after already going into 3rd, Mclaren thinks that means Hammy passed Trulli but didn't, and tells him to hold 3rd, but LH tells them Trulli is already ahead.

Happy to be corrected but not so happy to be corrected with an incorrect sequence.  Big grin So I hate to persist but WADR what is clear cut is that statement is wrong.

Teams says let him take back 3rd. Team: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.

But then the exchange shows this order was not acted on and in any event was contradicted:


LH: OK.

LH: He's slowed right down in front of me. IN FRONT OF ME!!!!!

Team: OK, Lewis. Stay ahead for the time being. Stay ahead. We will get back to you. We are talking to Charlie. STAY AHEAD, WHEN HE IS ALREADY BEHIND!!!

LH: I let him past already.
AH, WELL THAT MUST BE WHY HE IS AHEAD!!!

Which must mean that Trulli had already repassed Hamilton by the time he is told to let him past. Then he is told to stay ahead at a time when he was behind. He might have been told to allow a pass, but not at a time when it was possible to obey. By all means correct my interpretations but don't also get it wrong.

By the time the team said let him pass, it seems that had already occurred, except of course we do not have the audio matched to the rather startling in car video of the sequence. And then the team said stay ahead, which suggests they had no clear idea of track positions. So would they be supposed to answer what they thought, or what WAS the actual position? It is all total madness.


For reference the full sequence is:

Lewis Hamilton: The Toyota went off in a line at the second corner, ..., is this OK?

Team: Understood, Lewis. We'll confirm and get back to you.

LH: He was off the track. He went wide.

Team: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.

LH: OK.

LH: He's slowed right down in front of me.

Team: OK, Lewis. Stay ahead for the time being. Stay ahead. We will get back to you. We are talking to Charlie.

LH: I let him past already.

Team: OK, Lewis. That's fine. That's fine. Hold position. Hold position.

LH: Tell Charlie I already overtook him. I just let him past.


Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 119):
As for the rest of your argument, every party involved basically agrees that the question was basically, "Did you order LH to allow Trulli past?", and both Ryan and Hamilton answered, "No", which was a lie. The exact wording could have been different, but if Mclaren felt that they had been confused by the FIA's line of questioning, they would have said so rather than instantly accepting blame and suspending Ryan.

IF, IF that was the question then the correct answer would have been YES AND NO.  bouncy  So NO was not a lie. What else does STAY AHEAD mean??????

If the question was did you let him pass, the answer would presumably have been yes unless:
A Hamilton tried to stop the pass, or
B. Hamilton went mad.

Who knows why they suspended Ryan, but I will bet we do not?!

In any case, why should it matter what the pit orders are, what should count is what the driver does? Are the races to be determined by cross questioning about pit conversation? It will make for a very confused season if this is the case.

What sin was committed on the track? It the stewards do not know what happened on the track, they are in no position to rule on an event.
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 3:54 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 144):
What sin was committed on the track? It the stewards do not know what happened on the track, they are in no position to rule on an event.

But their ruling apparently is not so much on a recing event but on a mislead by Mclaren. One thing is clear, and that is that they ordered LH to let Trulli pass, and unless I'm mistaken the problem is that they then said that they never gave the order.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:04 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 145):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 144):
What sin was committed on the track? It the stewards do not know what happened on the track, they are in no position to rule on an event.

But their ruling apparently is not so much on a recing event but on a mislead by Mclaren. One thing is clear, and that is that they ordered LH to let Trulli pass, and unless I'm mistaken the problem is that they then said that they never gave the order.

Saying they never gave the order is close to being correct in part because first they said let him pass and then they said stay ahead. Just to spell it out once more with feeling, these are contradictory instructions. If you go with the one they gave last, then the did NOT give that order.

In any event whether they ordered it is totally irrelevant, because the pass had already taken place. So they could have said "detour via the moon" and it would have been equally valid. Why did the stewards not enquire about that possibility?

So you are mistaken to the extent that they also gave a (later) countermanding order. As I wrote, YES AND NO would be nearest to correct. As to which order they thought was operative in that confusion, I don't know, do you?

Generally with two orders the later one is thought to be the operative one - YES????
 
baroque
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RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:15 pm

Conclusions from weights are at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7982956.stm

When the weights of the cars in qualifying were published, it emerged that Button was running with 3.5kg more fuel than Trulli - which means he was penalised by extra weight that accounts for about 0.1secs per lap.

It also means Button has at least a lap's worth extra fuel in his car for the first stint of the race.

That suggests the Brawn's superiority on pace is not as marked in Malaysia as it was in Australia a week ago.

MALAYSIA APPROX FIRST STOPS
1 Button - lap 20
2 Trulli - lap 18
3 Glock - lap 18
4 Rosberg - lap 18
5 Webber - lap 18
6 Kubica - lap 21
7 Raikkonen - lap 21
8 Barrichello - lap 21
9 Alonso - lap 27
10 Heidfeld - lap 31
Stops calculated on weight of fuel in cars at 2.75kg per lap


Quoting StealthZ (Reply 136):
PS if Ferrari keep making blunders like the one in Q1 with Massa they may be beyond the help of "Ferrari International Assistance"

Op cit
Ferrari were confident of cruising through the early qualifying stages without using another set of soft tyres and opted for Massa to complete just four laps but the plan back-fired with several late quick times to leave the Brazilian in 16th spot in the first qualifying session.

Massa told BBC Sport: "I needed to do the perfect lap but I didn't do it. It was a big surprise not to make the top 15 - it was a bit of a mistake."
 
sudden
Posts: 3936
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:20 pm

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:10 pm



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 136):
Hell no, they did that all on their own.

Both Mclaren and Ferrari are not the frontrunners this year, so far. The season is long and as we have seen in the past that things can change.

Toyota are where they should be considering the budget they have.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 147):
It was a big surprise not to make the top 15 - it was a bit of a mistake."

Mistake!? LOL! They screwed up big time. Mistake is really not the right word to describe that f$%k up!

Rubens called the pit to say that he would hand in a complaint for being held up. Wonder what will happen with that. Can't remember who it was that should have held him up though.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!
 
waterpolodan
Posts: 1627
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:46 pm

RE: F1 2009: Malaysian Grand Prix

Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:12 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 144):

Team: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.

LH: OK.

LH: He's slowed right down in front of me.

Team: OK, Lewis. Stay ahead for the time being. Stay ahead. We will get back to you. We are talking to Charlie.

LH: I let him past already.

Team: OK, Lewis. That's fine. That's fine. Hold position. Hold position.

LH: Tell Charlie I already overtook him. I just let him past.

One more time here. Anyone else care to explain this to Baroque? When Lewis says "ok", he lets the Toyota through. That is why he next says "he's slowed right down in front of me", because the Toyota has already gone through. That is the only part of the conversation that matters, because Hamilton let the toyota through on team orders. Clearly, the team was confused by the slowed down right in front of me comment and didn't know what track positions the cars were in, hence the next line about staying ahead, but that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the team told him to let Trulli past and he did. He said OK, the Toyota goes through, and then there is a bit of a delay before he says "he's slowed right down in front of me". It was during that time he let him through. Pretty clear to me, and to everyone in the F1 world except you it seems. That first part of the conversation where they told him to let the Toyota through is what the FIA asked about, they don't care if there were seemingly contradicting orders a moment later because the act already occurred. It was this first set of orders that Mclaren lied about giving, and the evidence bears this out. Again, if this isn't the way it happened, why is everyone at Mclaren red faced and admitting that this is what occurred? Please let this go, I'm never one to get into this sort of thing on a forum but you're just misunderstanding the whole sequence.

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