Quoting AlexEU (Reply 48): Japan should recognize North Korea. I still don't understand their reason for non-recognition.

Why should they recognize them? What reason has the DRPK ever given Japan to recognize their existence? And to do so under threat? Forget it.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 6): Once you destroy their arsenal and main bases, they won't put up that much of a fight, and the majority of the people would be for the liberation from hell that they're in right now. They know it, they just can't show it since Kim's regime has a tight grip on them. (you talk you die basically)

Wow. Replace "Kim" with "Saddam" and you've pretty much summed up the argument for war in Iraq circa 2002. I seriously doubt that the North Koreans would view an invading force as any kind of liberators, no matter how f'd up their regime is.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 22): I completely agree that some people are far to eager to send other people to fight for their "good ideas". But actively seeking an armed confrontation with the DPRK, is neither ''good" or "wise." And I do not think it is simply by chance that the people most opposed to war with NKorea... are the people who have to actually fight that war: the soldiers. But at the same time, I disagree with air strikes against the DPRK. The Korean people are proud, and place a lot of stock in the concept of "saving face." An air strike would be embarrassing to them as a people, and would demand a military response. It's very easy to see how a simple air strike, spirals into a massive ground war.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 22): The US needs to work with China, and bring them into the fold. President Obama will probably never have a better opportunity to do this, than now. He is still riding a wave of popular support at home, and he is seen as a fresh break from the previous administration. China is deeply worried about the implosion of the DPRK, the resulting humanitarian nightmare... and the prospect of US troops once again on the Yalu River. And the sad truth is, none of the 5 nations have done any major preparations for a humanitarian disaster. Instead they have all been content to accept the status quo. America needs to make a pact that they will not occupy DPRK territory after any collapse - leaving that responsibility to the Korean people. It's a Korean peninsula, and we must ultimately allow the Koreans to govern it independent of foreign influence. The US should also make a pact that it will withdraw all forces from the Korean peninsula, once the threat of the DPRK military no longer exists - no long term bases, or open-ended troop presence. Along with the ROK and China, the US needs to begin preparing for the humanitarian disaster. All of this needs to be done to help convince China that we are not a threat to their border, and that it is in their interest to help bring a resolution to this issue.

not sure that we've ever agreed, but on this I 110% agree with you...anyone advocating airstrikes needs to look at the military build-up on the North side, not 50mi from downtown Seoul.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 34): What they don't have power to do anything about is the two US journalists currently being held as bargaining chips by Kim.

I'm not convinced that China is powerless to do anything about that. China has sway in North Korea, and we would be wise to utilize that influence.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 34): Obama WILL have to do something about this - but given the lack of any kind of action from anyone on the past 25 years of DPRK abductions of Japanese and South Korean citizens, I'm not expecting much.

Unfortunately, that's not the type of thing you can start a huge war over, so anyone who wants to take action to get those journalists out automatically has their hands tied.

-Mir

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 48): Japan should recognize North Korea. I still don't understand their reason for non-recognition. Even USA an UK recognize North Korea (UK has diplomatic relations too).

AFAIK Japan HAS diplomatic relations with North Korea. It doesn't help though that in the past North Korea has been kidnapping Japanese nationals from Japanese territory to act as language teachers for North Korean spies and even terrorists. While some of them have been allowed to return to their home country , the whereabouts of others is still unknown (besides that it is known that they have been abducted to North Korea).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Japanese

BTW, I wonder whyyou keep on supporting Stalinist regimes?

Jan

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 27): ARTICLE 9. Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 27): Even when, ya know, just for fun, other sovereign nations fire things that may or may not be missiles directly over Japanese territory.

I still fail to see how shooting down a ballistic missile over their own airspace violates the constitution, they would not be settling any int'l dispute just defending their airspace.
The official interpretation of the Article 9 seems to be very strict.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 55): The official interpretation of the Article 9 seems to be very strict

Regional considerations are the main reason they don't even want to debate it, as I explained in the earlier post.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 54): BTW, I wonder whyyou keep on supporting Stalinist regimes?

Ignorance?

Apologist?

You could probably take your pick...  

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 43): We're just going to have to work with China on this one. I don't see any other way out. Kim Jong isn't going to live forever, and it will be interesting to see what happens when he dies.

China seems to have decided to block any significant UN sanctions against North Korea, with support from Russia.

"Most members, led by the U.S. and Japanese ambassadors, wanted an immediate and robust condemnation of the launch in that initial statement. But the Chinese and Russian envoys are said to have resisted, with at least one member balking at a statement that would even express "concern" over the launch, according to a Western diplomat.

Later, Chinese Ambassador Yesui Zhang told reporters he wanted a "cautious and proportionate" response to avoid "increased tensions" and not jeopardize further nuclear negotiations with the North Koreans. But U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice said Washington's view was that "the most appropriate response to an action of this gravity would be a Security Council resolution."

The U.S. reportedly has floated the idea of a new resolution that would toughen the travel ban and asset freezes on officials involved in the North Korean missile program. But no draft resolutions were being circulated. Rice met briefly with the Chinese and Russian delegates late in the day to see whether they would veto any resolution, which either could do as one of the five permanent members of the Security Council.

Some Council members might resist sanctions that are too tough for fear they would keep North Korea from returning to the bargaining table. The regime has been involved in on-again, off-again disarmament talks with the United States, Russia, China, Japan and South Korea. Pyongyang has already threatened to end negotiations if there was any criticism of the launch at the United Nations."

Source: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...ea-main6-2009apr06,0,6990607.story

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21): The problem I see is that any rocket, which can launch a sizeable satellite into orbit, can also be used to launch a ballistic nuclear warhead.

Current rocket with warhead will reduce range......

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 58): China seems to have decided to block any significant UN sanctions against North Korea, with support from Russia.

Thats the problem.The Big powers are not united on one issue.

regds
MEL.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 57): Ignorance? Apologist? You could probably take your pick...

You have not heard Alex explain, have you? And yet you're so eager to turn judgmental when somehow has a different view.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 58): China seems to have decided to block any significant UN sanctions against North Korea, with support from Russia.

North Korea is not a country that respond to intimidation very well. China knows it. Creating an image that everyone in the world is ganging up on NK will only serve to taunt NK to adopt even more hostile poliicies.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 49): Although I agree with you, do you really think the DPRK is within logic to bomb Tokyo just because they aren't recognized? It's way out of line, but then again, that's typical of the DPRK.

No, and I don't understand why would NK bomb any nation. They know very well that if they throw a stone (not to mention nuke) at another country they would disappear.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 50): Why should they recognize them? What reason has the DRPK ever given Japan to recognize their existence? And to do so under threat? Forget it.

Because all countries recognize North Korea (apart from South Korea and Japan).

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 54): BTW, I wonder whyyou keep on supporting Stalinist regimes?

No, I don't support commies at all (I hate communism), but I placed North Korea flag because it looks nice...
If Pakistan, India and USA have right to own a nuclear weapon, the North Korea has also.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 61): No, I don't support commies at all (I hate communism), but I placed North Korea flag because it looks nice... If Pakistan, India and USA have right to own a nuclear weapon, the North Korea has also.

Nonsense. India and the US don't sell nuclear materials to terrorist organizations or states involved in active border disputes or anything of the sort. So long as nuclear weapons are a fact of life, the "right" to develop them only goes so far as a country's ability to demonstrate that they understand and can handle the responsibility involved, which is only to be determined by states that have infinitely more experience on the matter.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 61): Because all countries recognize North Korea (apart from South Korea and Japan).

Totally illogical. South Korea and Japan have absolutely zero incentive to formally recognize North Korea so long as it remains in its current governmental state. We live in the realpolitik world, not absolution.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 62): Quoting AlexEU (Reply 61): No, I don't support commies at all (I hate communism), but I placed North Korea flag because it looks nice... If Pakistan, India and USA have right to own a nuclear weapon, the North Korea has also. Nonsense. India and the US don't sell nuclear materials to terrorist organizations or states involved in active border disputes or anything of the sort. So long as nuclear weapons are a fact of life, the "right" to develop them only goes so far as a country's ability to demonstrate that they understand and can handle the responsibility involved, which is only to be determined by states that have infinitely more experience on the matter.

Also, China, Israel. India, the US, Pakistan, the UK, or France don't keep on blackmailing other countries to send them food and money (though the food shipments need to be disguised, that the population can't see that theyare from abroad) by threatening with war.

Jan

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 61): No, I don't support commies at all (I hate communism), but I placed North Korea flag because it looks nice... If Pakistan, India and USA have right to own a nuclear weapon, the North Korea has also.

Only responsible states should have this right.As the future of the planet depends on it.
regds
MEL.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 62): Nonsense. India and the US don't sell nuclear materials to terrorist organizations or states involved in active border disputes or anything of the sort.

But who tells you that NK would sell it's nuclear weapons to terrorist organization? Just an American propaganda, like Iranian nuclear issues.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1): Words and empty threats do not work with madmen. I think we should have learned that by now.

True but the US has elected someone who only uses those two tools. He is getting a crash in the non-teleprompter world and NK planned the timing perfectly.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2): That may be, but, at this moment, are we really keen on getting in another war at this time?

Nahh, besides there aren't that many Koreans living in the US is there?

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 14): Which is fine. But until he does something you cannot judge someone based on a belief. Again, we're dealing with a Senator with 147 days of in office experience and I'm just not going to jump to a conclusion because he personally, has never been in this spot. A week from now we might be having the all out jump on Obama slam fest because he coward to the freak show known as Kim, but only time will tell.

We sure will, NK can only feel emboldened now.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 66): True but the US has elected someone who only uses those two tools.

It isn't true, as we found out in Iraq, a president who shoot from the hip can get this nation embroiled for years in a conflict that never should have been waged.

It's all well and good for you to try to cheer us and the world into bombing them back into the stone ages, since you yourself are in no danger, NIK, but it isn't that easy, and you know it. After the debacle in Iraq, you're wanting ANOTHER war? What good will that do, except to kill more people? Haven't you learned the lessons from Iraq?

I guess not.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 67): It isn't true, as we found out in Iraq, a president who shoot from the hip can get this nation embroiled for years in a conflict that never should have been waged. It's all well and good for you to try to cheer us and the world into bombing them back into the stone ages, since you yourself are in no danger, NIK, but it isn't that easy, and you know it. After the debacle in Iraq, you're wanting ANOTHER war? What good will that do, except to kill more people? Haven't you learned the lessons from Iraq?

Again the CNN propaganda won't work here. As we saw in Iraq we took a ruthless dictator out and restored order while letting terrorists know their actions would not stand. All of which will be destroyed by Obama. As we have seen with NK they called him out, much like Chavez and others for being all talk and no substance. (Which is spot on) He made this prepared speech and talked tough and NK just ignored him because they felt he would fold like a cheap suit. Which they were right. They launched the missle to coincide with his trip and he did nothing. Which has set us back 30 years. Not only does NK feel they can kill whoever they want, even if it's not Americans but now Iran feels they can do the same. Your codepink mindset about no war whatsoever is so dangerous because as much as you want to ignore there is threats out there. People who are willing to inflict major damage to further a twisted agenda. We are seeing it in Iran, NK and now in Pakistan with the emergence of the Taliban who are seizing an oppurtunity given to them from a far left, weak US president.

Someone better do something because this will get out of control real quick. We need a leader, not a speaker.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 68): s we have seen with NK they called him out, much like Chavez and others for being all talk and no substance. (Which is spot on) He made this prepared speech and talked tough and NK just ignored him because they felt he would fold like a cheap suit.

While Bush made humongous strides with NK.. right?

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 69): While Bush made humongous strides with NK.. right?

Laughable, much like our President we have to constantly bring GWB up? Here is a news flash, he is back in Texas and not in power anymore. Obama can't use him as a crutch anymore. Obama has to lead, has to actually do something. He just can't reading off that teleprompter anymore. It's not about Bush. You Dems can't ride that anymore. The country wants action. Not words or a campaign speech. Obama has failed test after test. He just failed a major one and now we are on a collision course with NK furthering their nuclear ambitions. A pretty dangerous thing. I would hope that instead of campaign rhetoric we would get some action. Or people are going to die. I know since it's not Americans you could care less but something needs to be done.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 70): Laughable, much like our President we have to constantly bring GWB up? Here is a news flash, he is back in Texas and not in power anymore

Laughable (and very telling) is the fact that you don't realize that event and conflicts have a time line and things cannot be seen in a vacuum.

Look at Kim Jung Ill he is a wuss grabbing attention to himself in his psychological attempt to bring attention to his own self even though the citizens of his country are starving to death and his million man army are barely feed. It is no coincidence that he fires his missile at this time when much attention is being placed on the G-20 summit and Pres. Obama travels around Europe and Turkey. The rocket is a weapon and Kim wants attention and once again the rocket failed.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 68): They launched the missle to coincide with his trip and he did nothing. Which has set us back 30 years.

rubbish, you really have no idea what you're on about! if anything he has helped Obama and his call for the eradication of WMD's, Kim and his antics lend more weight to Obama's point than even you can see.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 72): The rocket is a weapon and Kim wants attention and once again the rocket failed.

its a negotiating tool, Kim wants something and you can bet he'll get it...stupid? no....shrewd negotiator? absolutely!

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 72): It is no coincidence that he fires his missile at this time when much attention is being placed on the G-20 summit and Pres.

actually, NK had been talking this launch up for some time.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 73): you really have no idea what you're on about! if anything he has helped Obama and his call for the eradication of WMD's,

Actually, I would say it's you who doesn't know what you're talking about. Ridding the world of nukes and WMD's is simply a fairytale. It's like gun control... all it does is empower the bad guys and weaken the good guys. As long as Iran and NK exist in their current form, there will ALWAYS be the threat, and NOTHING Obama can preach will change that.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 73): rubbish, you really have no idea what you're on about! if anything he has helped Obama and his call for the eradication of WMD's, Kim and his antics lend more weight to Obama's point than even you can see.

Oh so your telling me their launch date was just coincidence with the summit? Monty your not that naive. NK did what they did to show Obama is all talk and no action. It just drove that point home that he is will go around the world and bash Bush and say how nice the US is going to be now. All while things are beginning to get out of control. Which is funny because NK is going to have to be dealth with at some point. Whether Obama is going to actually do something is another matter. Then again he does have to pander to codepink who is beginning to call him out as well. As they have done about his campaign promise in Iraq.

http://codepink4peace.org/blog/2009/...l-troops-in-iraq-a-broken-promise/

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 73): actually, NK had been talking this launch up for some time.

Then why launch it during the summit?   

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter): this is a big "fuck you" to the rest of the world, and it could lead, in the long run, to hostilities between themselves, and the likes of the ROK, Japan and even the U.S.

No its China saying "FU" to the US for supporting Japan, the Philipines, Maylaysia and Vietnam for island disputes and India for border disputes and "legal" reconn activities of US "ships"/airplanes around Hainan.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 19): I HIGHLY doubt the PRC wants the DPRK to have these kind of rockets and possible nuclear weapons. It throws off the entire balance of the region.

But see above.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21): How will China and Russia (both direct neighbours of North Korea) react to such an attack? Will they cooperate to remove the crazy nut from their back yard or will they accuse the US of trying to encircle them by moving closer to their borders?

No China will NOT cooperate with the west on NK until its demands be met, such as US supported terrirotial disputes with Japan, Malaysia, India and so on so forth. Why should they?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23): With the Chinese government increasing showing off an agressive nationalism and 19th centuryattitudes concering aquisition of territory (Taiwan, Tibet etc.. I've even heard about claims towards Mongolia),

hmmm shall we review the history from a different perspective? Those "aquisitions" happened way before 19th century. Mongolia was part of China (thanks to Qing Manchus) and only became 'independent' in 1950 (1924 self claimed) while Taiwan and Tibet became 'dependent' 800 years ago?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 31): If we don't give a sh*t what happens to other humans, in other nations - because it is merely an "internal matter"... then what the hell are we doing here? Passing time?

Understandable from a US point of view with 'arrogence'. But the US view does not equate the world view, and the U.S will just have to accept that.

1. This is nothing more than desperate attention-seeking. Kim must be ronery   and he wants to get noticed.

2. These idiots can't even get their technology to work..and we're supposed to be afraid?

What I don't get are the comments about how the West should destroy all the nuclear weapons (like what Obama said the other day). This, for some reason, assumes that countries like North Korea and Iran look up to the West, like some sort of role model. The fact is - they will laugh at us, and this will work about as well as disarming the police, in the hope that all criminals will follow suit.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 76): Understandable from a US point of view with 'arrogence'. But the US view does not equate the world view, and the U.S will just have to accept that.

Yeah I completely agree. So therefore I propose every nation withdraw from all pollution reduction pacts/treaties... because if a nation wants to destroy their local environment, it's their country, and their right to do whatever the f*ck they want to do to it!

And if you don't like it, then too bad, because it would arrogant to tell them they can't do that... and you would be meddling into their internal affairs, by doing so.

Give me a break.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 76): No its China saying "FU" to the US for supporting Japan, the Philipines, Maylaysia and Vietnam for island disputes and India for border disputes and "legal" reconn activities of US "ships"/airplanes around Hainan.

Wrong. China has even tried to corral the DRPK over this issue, with no success. It's as much a "fuck you" to them as anyone else. You REALLY think China wants the DRPK to have the ability to drop a bomb anywhere-ANYWHERE-in Asia? Asia includes them, and Beijing; Canton, Shanghi, etc. It's not just a worry to the U.S., Japan and the ROK. And you think Russia is thrilled about this? Think again.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 76): But the US view does not equate the world view, and the U.S will just have to accept that.

Ah, so we have to accept the view of the rest of the world, but the world should just dismiss our view? I don't think so. That's where you get together and find...drumroll please....common ground. You build a consensus, much like George H.W. did before the Gulf War in '91.

We have as much right to our view as everyone else, and, since we are a key player in this, our views will have to be dealt with.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 75): NK did what they did to show Obama is all talk and no action.

This isn't just about Obama. This about North Korea getting on their soapbox and saying to the entire world that nobody can stop them from testing a missile. Not Obama (and not Bush either), not Brown, not Sarkozy, not Hu, not Putin/Medvedev, etc. And none of those people were happy that this happened.

Trying to pin this all on Obama is ridiculous, and shows that all you're really doing is hunting for excuses to criticize him. This sort of stuff is too important to be mixed in with that sort of partisanship.

-Mir

It should be noted that the consensus among the analysts seems to be that the test was a failure.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/06/wo.../asia/06korea.html?pagewanted=1&em

Even in the 21st century, rocket science is still rocket science, and the level of technical skill required for those things is very high. If true, this would show that North Korea still doesn't have the right stuff for a long-range rocket, and that their program needs some serious work before it becomes viable.

-Mir

Quoting Mir (Reply 80): This about North Korea getting on their soapbox and saying to the entire world that nobody can stop them from testing a missile.

Check!

That said, it is about whether PotUS would have the gut to make a hard call and shoot it down.

IMO, nope. He's still in the campaign mode, trying to make happy, happy, happy, with everyone. He will get a hard lesson in that eventually.

As for the missile. It should have been splashed. Japan had about 8 minutes to react. Ft. Greely Alaska had much more. The order never came.

There was no reason to let good ole Kim see just how far and fast his missile could fly. Shoot it down and keep him guessing.

What would the result have been? Kim gets pissed . . . . oh, so what!

China protests to the UN. Again, so what. What's the UN gonna do, send a strongly worded letter to the PotUS?

No one else would have complained.

And perhaps, just perhaps, it would have cemented the need for this missile defense shield once and for all. It's no the Russians - sorry . . . the Soviets . . . . any longer, it's a dozen piss ant little countries all over the world that have this technology or are developing it. We - the free world as it were - better get off our asses and be ready.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 82): What would the result have been? Kim gets pissed . . . . oh, so what! China protests to the UN. Again, so what. What's the UN gonna do, send a strongly worded letter to the PotUS?

Pep, while I agree with a lot of that post, I really take issue with this line. There are a lot of potential ramnifications to pissing off China that don't involve defense issues, the UN, or anything of the sort. They are already talking about floating a new reserve currency and they seem content to drop their trillion dollars in US reserves if push comes to shove - we're not only fighting with missiles and bombs here - China could trigger hyperinflation in the US if they really wanted to.

Would they actually do it or even threaten to if pushed hard enough? That's the question - but all analysis says we would be hurt far more long-term by such a move than they. I really don't think it's worth finding out.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 76): hmmm shall we review the history from a different perspective? Those "aquisitions" happened way before 19th century. Mongolia was part of China (thanks to Qing Manchus) and only became 'independent' in 1950 (1924 self claimed) while Taiwan and Tibet became 'dependent' 800 years ago?

It's the Republic of China (based on Taiwan) which claimed Mongolia, not PRC.
.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 76): No China will NOT cooperate with the west on NK until its demands be met, such as US supported terrirotial disputes with Japan, Malaysia, India and so on so forth. Why should they?

Just to give the others some ideas about the territoryat sea China claims:


No wonder the other South East Asian countries are miffed.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 76): hmmm shall we review the history from a different perspective? Those "aquisitions" happened way before 19th century. Mongolia was part of China (thanks to Qing Manchus) and only became 'independent' in 1950 (1924 self claimed) while Taiwan and Tibet became 'dependent' 800 years ago?

Well, at some time most of Europe was German or at other times French, at some time most of South America was Spanish or Portugese, or at some other time India was British, not even to speak about Africa. So where do you stop?

Jan

What could Obama (or even if this occured when GWB was in power) do about this rocket test? Try to shoot it down in flight? A million to 1 shot with current tech not able to do that and with it's own issues from more missle debris. Bomb/missle strikes on the base for these missle? That would really tick off the PRC as well as NK, perhaps leading to a horrible war with South Korea.
The asshat that controls NK like a sick cult knew little could be done and is trying to extort aid he can control completly and act as a 'great leader' for the causes of small and large countries in Asia as to various territorial disputes (as other posters have noted) and keep himself in power. Let us hope the next rocket he tries to fire blows up shortly after launch and kills a few thousand of his own starving people or maybe in the PRC. Then we might see some real change in NK.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 82): As for the missile. It should have been splashed. Japan had about 8 minutes to react. Ft. Greely Alaska had much more. The order never came. There was no reason to let good ole Kim see just how far and fast his missile could fly. Shoot it down and keep him guessing.

I'm not privy to the intelligence out there (of course), but if there was evidence that it was going to fail, why not let it, and let North Korea see that it failed? That way you can tell North Korea "look, you've tried these things several times and they've never worked, this was supposed to be your big hurrah and it was a dud, you obviously don't have what it takes, give it up."

Nothing has really changed here. He knows he can hit the south (which he already could), he knows he can hit Japan (again, already could), and he knows he can hit the fish in the Pacific Ocean. Beyond that, his capabilities are pretty much zero.

-Mir

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 84): It's the Republic of China (based on Taiwan) which claimed Mongolia, not PRC.

This is chronologically in-correct. ROC was not based in Taiwan until 1949 when the nationalist fled to Taiwan, by then they had already let Mongolia go. In 1924, Mongolia claimed "independence" be itself from ROC. Of course ROC did not accept it. But ROC was weak and when you are weak there's not many options you can work with. Then there was this WW2 and ROC needed any help it could get to fight the Japanese. The "help" never came un-conditional, right? So the USSR helped and Mongolia was let go. Then later ROC wanted to back-track that ended up just at that. PRC had a chance to reclaim Mongolia as they could have "de-recognized" the treaties done by ROC, and Qing government. But the independent Mongolia was a deal that came out between PRC and USSR.

You are correct that PRC never claimed Mongolia...but the next "PRC" might just do that. The borders are determined by powers, not by some "international law", as has been displayed over and over again even in the 21st century.

You are also right that PRC never governed Taiwan. But I am not sure that's a sufficient reason to claim that Taiwan is independent (Taiwan never has claimed) or it's not Chinese.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 85): Well, at some time most of Europe was German or at other times French, at some time most of South America was Spanish or Portugese, or at some other time India was British, not even to speak about Africa. So where do you stop?

It'll never stop as long as there're disputes. And wars come handy when the disputes couldn't get resolved. And let's not to forget there are always the ones who will take advatage and benefits from these disputes so they fan the others INTO the disputes.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 78): Yeah I completely agree. So therefore I propose every nation withdraw from all pollution reduction pacts/treaties... because if a nation wants to destroy their local environment, it's their country, and their right to do whatever the f*ck they want to do to it! And if you don't like it, then too bad, because it would arrogant to tell them they can't do that... and you would be meddling into their internal affairs, by doing so. Give me a break.

Well, when you are powerful you can maintain this kind of mentality and take that into actions like "IRAQ". That's why the "world powers" make rules and force everyone else to the rules. But think from the other side when the rules are forced upon you, how would you feel? Or you don't even care? I guess the latter, right?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 79): Wrong. China has even tried to corral the DRPK over this issue, with no success.

That's what was said the media, right? Media is used to manipulate people's minds by politicians, do we not agree? Well, think from China's perspective, there's really not enough incentive for China to 'try'. Deals are done by both parties. One party's offer isn't good enough and it's not taken by the other. Simple as that.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 79): We have as much right to our view as everyone else, and, since we are a key player in this, our views will have to be dealt with.

Don't get me wrong here. I never said you didn't have the right. I was merely saying everyone has the right too and that has to be recongnized as well as recoginzing your own right.

from all what ive seen, heard about, and read about North Korea, i dont think the change is going to come from the ordinary people living in the country. If Kim Jong ill dies or is incapacitated anytime soon, it doesnt look like there is a heir apparent; i.e his sons dont seem fit to run the country. Im guessing the military would take over, install some figurehead leader. We should hope for some sensible heads in the military or diplomatic services to open the country up and let the US/SK come in and take stock of what is needed to be done and prepare for eventual reunification. Its crazy to think of a war..millions will be killed, seoul would be in ruins and WWIII would probably start...

Quoting B2443 (Reply 88): This is chronologically in-correct. ROC was not based in Taiwan until 1949 when the nationalist fled to Taiwan, by then they had already let Mongolia go.

AFAIK, even when nationalists fled to Taiwan, they claimed Mongolia and they vetoed Mongolia acceptance into UN, but they have recognized Mongolia afterward.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 88): You are also right that PRC never governed Taiwan. But I am not sure that's a sufficient reason to claim that Taiwan is independent (Taiwan never has claimed) or it's not Chinese.

Taiwan issue is a hard one. I support PRC in Tibet and Xinjiang issues, but Taiwan has been de facto independent for over 60 years. All they have to do is change their official name, but that could create new war.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 91): but Taiwan has been de facto independent for over 60 years.

Your words "de facto" say it all. It's either independent or not, and legally there's no "de facto independent" or anything in between. Taiwan, as a political entity, has never officially claimed "independence" or changed its name from "Republic of China", whose constitution claims its territory that includes both the island of Taiwan and mainland China and Tibet, and Xinjiang and Mongolia. And that's precisely what "one China" means and on which the CCP and the Nationalists are based their co-operations. I don't care what people say that Taiwan has its own constitution, jurisdiction, monetary, legislature, etc, it is still not independent. Its "de facto independence" is not recognized by the UN and most of the countries in the world including the powerful "international communities". I don't understand why people in these countries still think that they are. Don't people in the US know at the time US-China established relationship in 1979, Taiwan is no longer 'independent' as they would like it? Or is the public misled intentionally? I bet if China wasn't 'communist', all of this Tibet/Taiwan wouldn't have even been 'issues'.

I have seen "de facto" independent used on Tibet, Taiwan, but the truth is they were not and are not independent.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 91): I support PRC in Tibet and Xinjiang issues,

So if Mao Zedong had sent troops to Taiwan to 'liberate the whole China', there wouldn't have been this issue, right? They were going to do that and probably would have won if there hadn't been the Korean War and US backing of the Nationalists. Talk about the bad timing. It's never too late though as PRC still can do that and will do that if Taiwan does claim independence. So there's a saying in China that the PRC leaders dream about when that happens because that will be the time Taiwan official coming back to the "motherland". To be honest, the "international community" will not be able to do anything other than empty talks because the "international community" has set many many bad examples.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 89): Well, when you are powerful you can maintain this kind of mentality and take that into actions like "IRAQ". That's why the "world powers" make rules and force everyone else to the rules. But think from the other side when the rules are forced upon you, how would you feel? Or you don't even care? I guess the latter, right?

Come'on, are we reading the same thread? What does any of this have to do with my argument?

Please, go back and reread what I have written. Have I once suggested we roll into the DPRK, and replace them with a puppet government? Absolutely not. In fact, if you go back and reread my prior argument, you would see that I advocated something much different.

The answer to bringing the DPRK in from the cold, is by working closely with China, and soothing their regional fears of American troops on their doorstep... by ultimately both agreeing that the end game ought to be one where the Korean people are free to govern their entire peninsula, free of American or Chinese interference.

So please, don't bring Iraq, or any of that stuff into this debate, because it only derails the thread... not to mention it's completely unrelated to what I've been arguing. Especially since looking back at my arguments in this thread, you'll see that just because I don't agree with the idea of attacking NKorea... doesn't mean that I agree that we shouldn't care what happens inside their borders. Just because they are thousands of miles away, does not lessen the humanitarian disaster, or tragic story of the Korean peninsula. I reject the notion that what happens in their borders is simply an "internal affair" and thus we ought to mind our own business.

-UH60

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 93): The answer to bringing the DPRK in from the cold, is by working closely with China, and soothing their regional fears of American troops on their doorstep... by ultimately both agreeing that the end game ought to be one where the Korean people are free to govern their entire peninsula, free of American or Chinese interference.

I agree with you on this one, as an ideal scenario. But do you see China and the US working together to make progress? Sure, NK destroyed a nuclear facility in anticipation of getting itself off the evil-axis list of US, did they succeed? Not immediately. That dragged on and on with execuses of "proper inspection prior to de-listing". There is little trust built there between China and the US. NK wants US off the Korean penisula, would US accept that or what would be US's counter offer? NK is just one of the items on China's plate. When the US is still poking China's eyes with supporting/stirring up Japan, the Philipines, Vietnam, India on border/island disputes, on-and-off Tibet/Taiwan stuff, and its own 'missions' near Hainan, I don't see how far the NK issue can go the way you and I would hope for. Clearly the US and China are not exactly working closely, no matter what has been said in the media. Deals are made by both parties, no?

Free of Chinese influence? Oh the Koreans have tried very hard themselves naively. Not culturally considering most of the Korean history was recorded in Chinese as late as 1900s.

Free of American influence? Not likely in the near future since the US is such a global power that has influenced the world over.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 93): doesn't mean that I agree that we shouldn't care what happens inside their borders.

The sad part is everytime we intervene, more innocent lives get lost. Korean War, Vietnam war, Gulf war, Yogoslavia, Iraq....doesn't look like that's ever going to stop. But have we learned anything?

Quoting B2443 (Reply 94): But do you see China and the US working together to make progress?

As I laid out, yes. You choose to criticize the entire process, and see things in a very negative light... but I choose to see opportunity.

I think President Obama has a small window to use his popularity, his influence and his genuine good will, to achieve considerable ground on this issue. You're right that our relationship with China is deeply complex, and goes far beyond the Korean issue... but that does not preclude us from working on that issue.

When you view the world so darkly, and negatively - as you do - of course their is no hope for progress.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 94): Sure, NK destroyed a nuclear facility in anticipation of getting itself off the evil-axis list of US, did they succeed? Not immediately. That dragged on and on with execuses of "proper inspection prior to de-listing". There is little trust built there between China and the US.

I'm sorry, but I am having trouble following your argument. You are all over the place... what exactly is your solution? You've told us plenty about what you think is screwed up in this world... but why don't you tell us what the end-game should be.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 94): NK wants US off the Korean penisula, would US accept that or what would be US's counter offer?

...Of course the US would accept that. And it's not an opinion, it's fact. The US is slowly working in that direction, as we speak. The ROK military is nearly fully self-sufficient, and fully capable to defend their own border. As a significant sign that we are almost to that point, the US will soon be transferring war-time command powers to the ROK. In other words, in the event of a war, the supreme commander will no longer be the USFK commander, but the ROKA commander. The US has shut down 60% of their bases on the peninsula. The US has recently moved an entire attack battalion off the peninsula, relocating them to Colorado.

So yes, I would absolutely say that the US would accept a scenario where there is no longer an active military presence on the peninsula. And as I've said, the US needs to communicate that to the Chinese. The demise of the DRPK regime does not have to represent an American military presence on the Yalu River.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 94): Free of Chinese influence? Oh the Koreans have tried very hard themselves naively. Not culturally considering most of the Korean history was recorded in Chinese as late as 1900s.

Come'on. Go to South Korea, and then come back and tell me that they are a nation likely to submit to the Chinese.

They don't do it now, why would they do it once the peninsula is unified? But more importantly why are YOU opposed to the the reunification of the Korean people????

Quoting B2443 (Reply 94): The sad part is everytime we intervene, more innocent lives get lost. Korean War, Vietnam war, Gulf war, Yogoslavia, Iraq....doesn't look like that's ever going to stop. But have we learned anything?

Again, you're not listening to my argument. I want you to show me where I have proposed we "intervene" in North Korea.

-UH60

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 82): That said, it is about whether PotUS would have the gut to make a hard call and shoot it down.

It's not about that at all, Pep. Whether we like it or not, the DRPK has as much right to test fire a rocket as we do, as China does, as anyone does. To shoot it down would have been an act of war, and caused more problems than it is worth. Let them hang themselves. Why give them any sympathy in the world? And shooting it down, perersely, would have done that.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 89): Don't get me wrong here. I never said you didn't have the right.

Sure you did. You said we basically have to accept the world's view, which means our view is moot, no matter what it is.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 96):

It's exactly that Falcon. Our Potus . . .OUR PotUS . . . has declared he will negotiate without preconditions . . . . therein lies a point of concern for EVERY American.

The DPRK is not to negotiate with . . . without preconditions. As is Iran. Therein lies the error of that comment . . .

If we'd shot down the missile . . . or had Japan . . . that would NOT have been an act of war. For the DPRK to launch the missile over another countries terrority - Japan - without their permission - or rather having been expressly told not to - is the act of war.

The "act of war" was committed as soon as the DPRK's missile entered Japanese air space. Based on treaty obligations, if we'd shot it down from Greely we'd have been just fine in the eyes of the international community. Ditto Japan.

The DPRK knew they could flex this muscle because they knew Obama didn't have the gut . . . and that Japan didn't have the time.


Clever on Lil' Kim's part.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 97): It's exactly that Falcon. Our Potus . . .OUR PotUS . . . has declared he will negotiate without preconditions . . . . therein lies a point of concern for EVERY American. The DPRK is not to negotiate with . . . without preconditions.

The preconditions mantra has nothing to do with if we should shoot down their test shots, Pep. We've already committed one act of war on a nation this decade without provocation, and I don't think we need to do it again.

If we were to shoot at the missle, who's to say the DRPK won't take it out on Seoul, or Tokyo, or somewhere else, if they can? What good will that do us. We keep turning the screws on them. Yeah, I know, so far that hasn't done much, but I don't believe we've reached the time where a shooting war is exactly conducive to achieving anything but a lot of dead people.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 97): If we'd shot down the missile . . . or had Japan . . . that would NOT have been an act of war. For the DPRK to launch the missile over another countries terrority - Japan - without their permission - or rather having been expressly told not to - is the act of war.

Fair enough. I see your point. But seems to me in that case, that was Japan's call, not ours. Again, we can't simply dictate to an ally what they should do, Pep. Had Japan told the President "we're going to shoot it down", I think we would have allowed them to do so, but then stood our forces up to war footing in the region. But Japan thought otherwise. That's their right.

If the DRPK fires a second one over Japan, I don't think Japan will let that one slide. I really don't.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 97): The DPRK knew they could flex this muscle because they knew Obama didn't have the gut

Easy for any of us to say not sitting in the Hot Seat, Pep. I think had this happened durning Mr. Bush's tenure, he wouldn ot have shot it down, either. Would you be critisizing him for not doing it, either? Would I be critisizing him for not doing it? A fair question for both of us to ponder.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 97): The "act of war" was committed as soon as the DPRK's missile entered Japanese air space. Based on treaty obligations, if we'd shot it down from Greely we'd have been just fine in the eyes of the international community. Ditto Japan. The DPRK knew they could flex this muscle because they knew Obama didn't have the gut . . . and that Japan didn't have the time.

Japan had over eight minutes of tracking time according to the newspapers here. The Aegis destroyers they had positioned off the west coast had four to five minutes - that should have been more than enough. As I've previously posted, they couldn't do anything unless they had direct evidence that the missile or its fragments were headed for populated areas.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 98): Fair enough. I see your point. But seems to me in that case, that was Japan's call, not ours. Again, we can't simply dictate to an ally what they should do, Pep. Had Japan told the President "we're going to shoot it down", I think we would have allowed them to do so, but then stood our forces up to war footing in the region. But Japan thought otherwise. That's their right. If the DRPK fires a second one over Japan, I don't think Japan will let that one slide. I really don't.

You're wrong. The Japanese government will not and CANNOT take any action without revision of the Constitution. Even if the Upper House and PM wanted to shoot something down, they wouldn't legally be able to issue any orders to the JSDF. The standing order on Sunday was only to shoot down anything obviously heading toward populated areas.

A new poll will be out next week on the public's feelings regarding modification of Article 9 in light of this week's events, but still things haven't shifted enough. Most experts have said in recent days that based on their tracking data, public support is hovering around 45%. That's far shy of the 2/3 majority needed to amend the Constitution and renounce the US-imposed 'forever renunciation of war'. Again, you can source previous posts in this topic to understand why this is such a difficult paradigm shift for this country to make.