Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 3:54 am

And no one did shoot it down. I thought Japan might.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapc...4/04/north.korea.rocket/index.html

Yes, like all nations, the DRPK has the right to self-defense, and to test almost anything they want, but this is a big "fuck you" to the rest of the world, and it could lead, in the long run, to hostilities between themselves, and the likes of the ROK, Japan and even the U.S.

Now the question is, what does the world-and the North-do next?

Your thoughts?
 
User avatar
WarRI1
Posts: 14195
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:01 am

Well, they have thumbed their noses once again at the rest of the nations who objected to this rocket launch, does not surprise me. Words and empty threats do not work with madmen. I think we should have learned that by now.
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:06 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1):
Words and empty threats do not work with madmen.

That may be, but, at this moment, are we really keen on getting in another war at this time? The only people being hurt by the sanctions are the dirt-poor people of that nation. Obviously the top tier in the DRPK aren't hurting from it. So, what is the answer?

I think that while a full-fledge war isn't feesable at this time, I could see the U.S., the ROK and Japan getting together and possibliy carrying out air strikes on the DRPk's nuclear facilities. Although one side-effet of that could be found thousands of miles away-it would give Israel a tacit grean light to strike Iranian nuke facilities if they feel they need to.
 
iliribdl
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:34 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:19 am

Just attack its military bases for 24 hours straight, then let South Korea invade it and try and slowly integrate the North Koreans to democracy.

If Albania can change from harsh communist regime to a democratic nation in 17 years, I'm sure the North Koreans can do the same. (of course with all the help they can get from the Western nations)
 
User avatar
WarRI1
Posts: 14195
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:28 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
That may be, but, at this moment, are we really keen on getting in another war at this time? The only people being hurt by the sanctions are the dirt-poor people of that nation. Obviously the top tier in the DRPK aren't hurting from it. So, what is the answer?

I have no answer myself. Maybe we should have said nothing, just shot the dammed thing down and let them prove it. We tend to blather on and then look helpless in the eyes of the other madmen out there. You can only threaten so many times and guess what, nobody listens.
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:29 am



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 3):
Just attack its military bases for 24 hours straight, then let South Korea invade it and try and slowly integrate the North Koreans to democracy.

And how many thousands of Koreans die in that war, which would be as brutal, if not moreso, than the one in the 1950's. Easy to say, sitting at hom, a few thousand miles away from the potential field of battle.

I think airstrikes might be necessary at some point, but an all-out ground assult? That would come with a price that I think no one wants to pay.
 
iliribdl
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:34 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:48 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
I think airstrikes might be necessary at some point, but an all-out ground assult? That would come with a price that I think no one wants to pay.

Once you destroy their arsenal and main bases, they won't put up that much of a fight, and the majority of the people would be for the liberation from hell that they're in right now. They know it, they just can't show it since Kim's regime has a tight grip on them. (you talk you die basically)
 
User avatar
GuitrThree
Posts: 1941
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:54 pm

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:10 am

Obama: "Hey Joe {Biden}, call Dick Cheney, see what he would do"

Biden: "He said shoot first, ask questions later."

Obama: "Well, that won't work. Call Bill Clinton"

Biden: "He said send Hillary. She was always good at turning off my missile before launch."

I know... I know.. B...a....d....

Just trying to put a little spin on yet another problem. So far Obama has handled the Iraq and Afghanistan problems fairly, not flying of the handle... I hope he can control things here. Old Kim is a problem that needs to be dealt with now.
 
User avatar
Jetsgo
Posts: 2794
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:31 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:26 am

Problem is though, no real effective response will come from Obama. Kim knows this, and played Obama like a fool. Kim knows he will face no meaningful consequences, so he had nothing to lose. Anything short of swiftly and harshly dealing with Kim, is a failure on everyone's part.
 
User avatar
WarRI1
Posts: 14195
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:35 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
think airstrikes might be necessary at some point, but an all-out ground assult? That would come with a price that I think no one wants to pay.

Pay now, or pay later, one way or another there is a price to be paid for doing nothing, usually i is a much higher price when dealing with madmen. Adolf did not have nuclear weapons, this madman is there or close, should we wait until he can lob one somewhere?
 
User avatar
GuitrThree
Posts: 1941
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:54 pm

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:43 am



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 8):
Problem is though, no real effective response will come from Obama. Kim knows this, and played Obama like a fool.

Might well be... I guess we'll know in a few short days. So far I give Obama an F for his Economic dealings, and a B for his International dealings. But, that being said he hasn't had much to do concerning real new problems dealing with overseas kooks. That "B" is up for grabs now...

I'll hold out hope, until we see how he deals with this. I'm not going to make a snap judgment based on no evidence or proof of past dealings. Well, of course, that's because this country elected a Senator with 147 days of so-called experience. Is he going to be a Reagan or Carter?

Looks to me that in a short 6 months we'll know everything we'll need to about Obama.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:49 am



Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 10):
Quoting JetsGo (Reply 8):
Problem is though, no real effective response will come from Obama. Kim knows this, and played Obama like a fool.

Might well be... I guess we'll know in a few short days. So far I give Obama an F for his Economic dealings, and a B for his International dealings. But, that being said he hasn't had much to do concerning real new problems dealing with overseas kooks. That "B" is up for grabs now...

How does he even get a B? We now look like we're "all talk, no action". Initially we said if they launched this missile, it would be shot down. Now our threats against any future launches (or just general actions for that matter) towards the North Koreans will be viewed as empty threats as well. And of course Obama just the other day announced he's planning to work towards removing all nuclear weapons, at a time when rogue nations like Iran and North Korea are working quickly to develop theirs.
 
User avatar
Jetsgo
Posts: 2794
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:31 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:55 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 10):

Believe me, I would love nothing more than for my judgment to be wrong. I'd be the first to admit it was wrong if Obama comes through with something decent. However, as pessimistic as it may seem, I just don't see him succeeding here. Like I said, anything short of a swift and harsh response is a failure on everyone's part. UN warnings and resolutions obviously don't mean squat to Kim...he knows it's all talk and that he stands a good chance getting away with anything short of bombing Seoul and/or Tokyo.

[Edited 2009-04-04 22:56:11]
 
fraspotter
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 8:12 pm

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:11 am

I read the story on CNN. I don't think an all out invasion should occur like a few of the people above have said, but I do feel that at the very least they should have shot the damned thing out of the sky... If anything it would work as target practice. We go on and on about Iran trying to get stuff together to make nuclear weapons but when N. Korea actually fires a missile (not nuclear, but still dangerous) over another country's airspace, we do nothing... This is the second time that I can remember N. Korea doing this (didn't they do the same thing a few years back?) and the world's response is still absolutely nothing. I'm sorry to say this, but the UN is absolutely USELESS!!! They put on a good show of "passing resolutions" and slapping countries on the wrist, but other then that, nothing...
 
User avatar
GuitrThree
Posts: 1941
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:54 pm

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:12 am



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 11):
Initially we said if they launched this missile, it would be shot down.

Sounding like a liberal here, I know, please forgive me, but this missile never made it remotely close to any USA soil. What gives us the right to shoot it down?

Obama also once said that he would get out of Iraq on Day 1 of his Presidency. Once he read the intelligence reports, things changed, didn't they? Now you, nor I, have ever read that report. And I'm guessing you've never read the report on N Korea. So don't jump to any conclusions on what is going on there. There might be things happening that the general public has no clue about.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 12):
However, as pessimistic as it may seem, I just don't see him succeeding here.

Which is fine. But until he does something you cannot judge someone based on a belief. Again, we're dealing with a Senator with 147 days of in office experience and I'm just not going to jump to a conclusion because he personally, has never been in this spot. A week from now we might be having the all out jump on Obama slam fest because he coward to the freak show known as Kim, but only time will tell.
 
User avatar
Jetsgo
Posts: 2794
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:31 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:15 am



Quoting FRAspotter (Reply 13):
They put on a good show of "passing resolutions" and slapping countries on the wrist, but other then that, nothing...

All Kim understands is brute force. And until he is shown brute force, he will continue to up the anty each any every time. He sees right through the BS of the UN, US, and Europe. He is playing everyone like fools.
 
User avatar
Jetsgo
Posts: 2794
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:31 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:18 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 14):
But until he does something you cannot judge someone based on a belief.

I wouldn't exactly call it just a "belief." I base my opinion off the fact that during the weeks preceding to this, Obama let those around him openly state that we will not shoot the missile down. Such an absolutely stupid thing for for any authoritative figure to publicly state. And since those same people are in charge, I don't see anything meaningful happening.

[Edited 2009-04-04 23:20:04]
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:27 am

People tend to forget DPRK´s masters, PRC won´t allow it, they´re reporting it as a satelite launch. Democratic peoples republic of Korea (NorthKorea) wouldn´t exist if it´s northern neighbour wasn´t supporting them.
 
commander_rabb
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:59 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:28 am

I'll await what the Obama administration decides. I have a feeling just some harsh words and this launch will fade away over the weeks ahead. Would one honestly expect anything else? Perhaps this is the first of many "tests" that Biden mentioned. Frankly I would have loved for the Unites States to blast that firecracker out of the sky but it's to "Bush" like for Obama to even consider such an action. Yeah, harsh words. That fits into the Obama plan. Nothing more.
 
User avatar
Jetsgo
Posts: 2794
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:31 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:36 am



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 17):
People tend to forget DPRK´s masters, PRC won´t allow it

I HIGHLY doubt the PRC wants the DPRK to have these kind of rockets and possible nuclear weapons. It throws off the entire balance of the region.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:50 am

Not that it matters a whole lot but just out of curiosity, does anyone know if this thing actually made it to orbit or not? It is one thing to shoot up something in the sky really high, it is another, much more difficult one to give it enough speed so it will actually remain there.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 11):
Initially we said if they launched this missile, it would be shot down. Now our threats against any future launches (or just general actions for that matter) towards the North Koreans will be viewed as empty threats as well.

Not to defend Obama (I am not a big fan), but I don't recall anyone saying that outloud (not that I would necessarily think that is the best course of action, either).

Quoting Commander_Rabb (Reply 18):
Frankly I would have loved for the Unites States to blast that firecracker out of the sky but it's to "Bush" like for Obama to even consider such an action.

Not only that but, frankly, anti-missile technology is still far from mature (even in the boost phase). The worst thing that could happen is you trying to shoot it down from the sky and actually missing- it would send a very wrong signal to the North Koreans. This is not the type of technology you want to be experimenting with on others.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:51 am



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 6):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
I think airstrikes might be necessary at some point, but an all-out ground assult? That would come with a price that I think no one wants to pay.

Once you destroy their arsenal and main bases, they won't put up that much of a fight, and the majority of the people would be for the liberation from hell that they're in right now. They know it, they just can't show it since Kim's regime has a tight grip on them. (you talk you die basically)

The problem is:
How will China and Russia (both direct neighbours of North Korea) react to such an attack? Will they cooperate to remove the crazy nut from their back yard or will they accuse the US of trying to encircle them by moving closer to their borders?
Last time, during the Korean war, the Chinese warned the US and UN troops several times to stay away from their border. McArthur ignored these warnings and moved his troops right up to the Korean border (IIRC the Chosin reservoir areais less than 20 km from the border). As a result the Chinese sent a million welltrained "volunteers", who pushed back the UN troops to the existing North-South Korean border.

The problem I see is that any rocket, which can launch a sizeable satellite into orbit, can also be used to launch a ballistic nuclear warhead.

Jan
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:59 am

The US needs to work with China, and bring them into the fold. President Obama will probably never have a better opportunity to do this, than now. He is still riding a wave of popular support at home, and he is seen as a fresh break from the previous administration.

China is deeply worried about the implosion of the DPRK, the resulting humanitarian nightmare... and the prospect of US troops once again on the Yalu River. And the sad truth is, none of the 5 nations have done any major preparations for a humanitarian disaster. Instead they have all been content to accept the status quo.

America needs to make a pact that they will not occupy DPRK territory after any collapse - leaving that responsibility to the Korean people. It's a Korean peninsula, and we must ultimately allow the Koreans to govern it independent of foreign influence. The US should also make a pact that it will withdraw all forces from the Korean peninsula, once the threat of the DPRK military no longer exists - no long term bases, or open-ended troop presence. Along with the ROK and China, the US needs to begin preparing for the humanitarian disaster. All of this needs to be done to help convince China that we are not a threat to their border, and that it is in their interest to help bring a resolution to this issue.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
And how many thousands of Koreans die in that war, which would be as brutal, if not moreso, than the one in the 1950's. Easy to say, sitting at hom, a few thousand miles away from the potential field of battle.

I think airstrikes might be necessary at some point, but an all-out ground assult? That would come with a price that I think no one wants to pay.

I completely agree that some people are far to eager to send other people to fight for their "good ideas". But actively seeking an armed confrontation with the DPRK, is neither ''good" or "wise." And I do not think it is simply by chance that the people most opposed to war with NKorea... are the people who have to actually fight that war: the soldiers.

But at the same time, I disagree with air strikes against the DPRK. The Korean people are proud, and place a lot of stock in the concept of "saving face." An air strike would be embarrassing to them as a people, and would demand a military response. It's very easy to see how a simple air strike, spirals into a massive ground war.

-UH60
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:08 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 22):
America needs to make a pact that they will not occupy DPRK territory after any collapse - leaving that responsibility to the Korean people. It's a Korean peninsula, and we must ultimately allow the Koreans to govern it independent of foreign influence. The US should also make a pact that it will withdraw all forces from the Korean peninsula, once the threat of the DPRK military no longer exists - no long term bases, or open-ended troop presence. Along with the ROK and China, the US needs to begin preparing for the humanitarian disaster. All of this needs to be done to help convince China that we are not a threat to their border, and that it is in their interest to help bring a resolution to this issue.

This sounds like a good idea. Acknowledging that once Kim and his cronies are gone the threat has been removed from the Korean peninsula and that with this the Korean war has finaly ended and thus the US troops on Korean soil are not needed anymore.
But there exists one possible problem: Historically Korea was subordinate to China (up to the first Sino-Japanese war in the late 19th century, upon which the Korean peninsula became a Japanese colony). With the Chinese government increasing showing off an agressive nationalism and 19th centuryattitudes concering aquisition of territory (Taiwan, Tibet etc.. I've even heard about claims towards Mongolia), wouldn't the chinese government be tempted to excert hegemonial power over Korea once the US troops are gone?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 22):
But at the same time, I disagree with air strikes against the DPRK. The Korean people are proud, and place a lot of stock in the concept of "saving face." An air strike would be embarrassing to them as a people, and would demand a military response. It's very easy to see how a simple air strike, spirals into a massive ground war.

Also don't forget that most of the North Korean population are completely cut off from what happens in the world, except for government propaganda. They most likely see an attack not as an attempt at liberation, but as an invasion. Also, with North Korea having conscription, most families will have at least one family member in the direct line of fire.

Jan
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15805
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:20 pm

One of the most critical and important parts of Asian culture is that of 'face' or respect. To me the launching of this missile by North Korea is a way to force that respect from their neighbors and the world. It can be used as a form of extortion by the leaders of NK upon the rest of the world to keep their peverse power, to get food and other benefits without having to give that power up. The leaders of NK also know we couldn't shoot down the missile with great assurance or destroy the launching pad as that would probably cause a new and very deadly war.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16005
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:21 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And no one did shoot it down. I thought Japan might.

Impossible. Japan clearly stated in previous weeks that only missile fragments presenting a threat to populated areas would be shot down. No thanks to the US-imposed constitutional provision relegating the Self Defense forces to abject uselessness.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):

Now the question is, what does the world-and the North-do next?

Japan can't do anything. South Korea, on the other hand, can do a lot. China's the wild card. The logical next step for the Japanese would be repeal of the pacifist elements in the Constitution, but there is still only 38% public support for doing so, according to a poll this week.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 8):
Anything short of swiftly and harshly dealing with Kim, is a failure on everyone's part.

Again, Japan can't do anything, even though it very well had a right to in this case. Is the rest of the world totally unaware that Article 9 of Japan's pacifist Constitution disallows the Self Defense Forces from taking ANY action except in cases of direct attack on the Japanese islands?

This is actually quite frustrating for people here - a rocket, very well something else, was fired directly over Japan's sovereign territory, and there is absolutely no recourse legally available to this country unless damage is already underway to populated areas. It's ridiculous. At the very least, Tokyo should be able to charge for overflight!  Yeah sure

Quoting Commander_Rabb (Reply 18):
Frankly I would have loved for the Unites States to blast that firecracker out of the sky but it's to "Bush" like for Obama to even consider such an action.

Considering most of the missile's first stage flight was over Japan, it's hardly the responsibility of the US to do so.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 11):
And of course Obama just the other day announced he's planning to work towards removing all nuclear weapons, at a time when rogue nations like Iran and North Korea are working quickly to develop theirs.

You actually believe he believes he can do that? It's cheap political talk.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6327
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:45 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 25):
Is the rest of the world totally unaware that Article 9 of Japan's pacifist Constitution disallows the Self Defense Forces from taking ANY action except in cases of direct attack on the Japanese islands?

The rest of the world is most likely unaware it's THAT pacifist. Time to update the constitution?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16005
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 2:06 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 26):
The rest of the world is most likely unaware it's THAT pacifist.

Effective May 3, 1947, Article 9 of the Japanese constitution states:

ARTICLE 9. Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes

Even when, ya know, just for fun, other sovereign nations fire things that may or may not be missiles directly over Japanese territory.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 2:24 pm



Quoting Commander_Rabb (Reply 18):
I would have loved for the Unites States to blast that firecracker out of the sky but it's to "Bush" like for Obama to even consider such an action. Yeah, harsh words.

What does shooting it down get you? Nothing. Except a pissed off China - which is the last thing you need. Seems that that is the consensus of all the post here regardless of political views that China - like it or not - is the wild card. Like it or not, China has the control of the situation, and they know it.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 26):
The rest of the world is most likely unaware it's THAT pacifist. Time to update the constitution?

I guess not:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 25):
The logical next step for the Japanese would be repeal of the pacifist elements in the Constitution, but there is still only 38% public support for doing so, according to a poll this week.

 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 2:56 pm

To make one thing clear:
Human rights abuses don't count as a reason for intervention for both northern neighbours of North Korea, China and Russia. No matter how bad Kim treats his population, in the interpretation of international law done by thesetwo countries, it is just an "internal matter" nobody has the right to interfere in. Any other interpretation would leave both of the two countries open to critizism.

Both China and Russia don't want US troops at their border and they still adhere to the "glacis" strategy by having some subordinate countries acting as a buffer zone and possible battle field.
Especially the Chinese government has shown some attitudes towards minorities over the last few years which went out of fashion in the West latest after WW2.

Jan
 
KSYR
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:45 pm

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 3:23 pm



Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 14):
Sounding like a liberal here, I know, please forgive me, but this missile never made it remotely close to any USA soil. What gives us the right to shoot it down?

Aren't we still technically at war with North Korea?

That would give us the right to shoot down whatever we want.
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 3:28 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 29):
Human rights abuses don't count as a reason for intervention for both northern neighbours of North Korea, China and Russia. No matter how bad Kim treats his population, in the interpretation of international law done by thesetwo countries, it is just an "internal matter" nobody has the right to interfere in. Any other interpretation would leave both of the two countries open to critizism.

I'm sorry... but what a bullshit cop out. I'm not saying it's your fault... I'm saying that the fact that nations agree to this moronic belief, is half of the problem!

If we don't give a sh*t what happens to other humans, in other nations - because it is merely an "internal matter"... then what the hell are we doing here? Passing time?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16005
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 3:33 pm



Quoting KSYR (Reply 30):
Aren't we still technically at war with North Korea?

That would give us the right to shoot down whatever we want.

Not remotely since South Korea and Japan would need to be consulted with first before doing anything and China would not take kindly to the US kicking a kid on their block.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 3:40 pm



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 8):
Problem is though, no real effective response will come from Obama. Kim knows this, and played Obama like a fool. Kim knows he will face no meaningful consequences, so he had nothing to lose.

This would have happened under any president. Quite frankly, the US does not have the resources to do anything related to regime change in North Korea. China does, but has other priorities for their resources (and is doing pretty well with them). Eventually, this was going to happen.

That said, even with a missile test, I'm not worried about North Korea. A test is very different to actually shooting a warhead off at someone. The latter can be deterred, and there is still plenty of deterrent out there for North Korea to worry about.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 22):
The US needs to work with China, and bring them into the fold. President Obama will probably never have a better opportunity to do this, than now. He is still riding a wave of popular support at home, and he is seen as a fresh break from the previous administration.

 checkmark  China is key here. They, and they alone, have the real power to change things on the Korean peninsula.

-Mir
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16005
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 3:51 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 33):
China is key here. They, and they alone, have the real power to change things on the Korean peninsula.

What they don't have power to do anything about is the two US journalists currently being held as bargaining chips by Kim. Is there any hope for an American journalist to make it through a North Korean trial? Obama WILL have to do something about this - but given the lack of any kind of action from anyone on the past 25 years of DPRK abductions of Japanese and South Korean citizens, I'm not expecting much.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6327
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 3:52 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 29):
Human rights abuses don't count as a reason for intervention for both northern neighbours of North Korea, China and Russia. No matter how bad Kim treats his population, in the interpretation of international law done by thesetwo countries, it is just an "internal matter" nobody has the right to interfere in. Any other interpretation would leave both of the two countries open to critizism.

What's BS about it? MD11 was talking about THEIR reasoning, that is reasoning of Russia and China and the fact that "human rights" are empty words for them is a sad truth.
 
baguy
Posts: 474
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:04 pm

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:01 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 27):
Effective May 3, 1947, Article 9 of the Japanese constitution states:

ARTICLE 9. Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes

Just out of interest, and not meaning to sound dumb, does the Japanese Diet not have the power to reverse the constitution or alter it? Would a majority vote be enough to change this?

IMHO, Japan poses absolutely no danger what so ever, as i am sure many people see. Why should they not be able to stage war? Considering a potential conflict could be happening on their doorstep.

Just my  twocents 

On another note, could any Japanese members enlighten me on why the public opinion of changing the constitution is so low?

Thanks,

BAguy
 
ALexeu
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:05 pm

The USA is doing the same thing. DPRK has all rights to do the same, even tough I am strongly against their regime.
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:09 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 22):
completely agree that some people are far to eager to send other people to fight for their "good ideas".

I've noticed that from a few voices on here, who are worried about "all talk and no action" it seems. But I do understand their frustration, because, so far, the Six-nation talks haven't worked; olive branches by the world haven't worked. But as I said, those who would suffer most aren't those beating the drums for conflict. It's the Korean people.

I do think, if the North continues to thumb it's nose at the world, airstrikes MAY become necessary. I understand the "saving face" concept, but even thet South is going to feel pressure from it's own people to do something about this eventually, in ways other than words.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 31):
If we don't give a sh*t what happens to other humans, in other nations - because it is merely an "internal matter"... then what the hell are we doing here? Passing time?

Maybe so, but then why weren't we gung-ho about overthorwing half of the idiots in Africa, at the same time we went after Saddam. I mean, many said one of the reasons we went to war in Iraq was to get rid of a dictator. Well, we left a few dozen of them behind, and didn't do squat about them, did we? Robert Mugabe jumps to mind.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16005
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:28 pm

This is a very complex issue but I'll break things down as simply as possible...

Quoting Baguy (Reply 36):
Just out of interest, and not meaning to sound dumb, does the Japanese Diet not have the power to reverse the constitution or alter it? Would a majority vote be enough to change this?

There is no popular referendum process for constitutional amendment in Japan. If both the Upper and Lower houses of the Diet pass a proposed amendment by a 2/3 majority, then a public vote can be held. If that passes, the amendment becomes law. Since the US occupation formally ended in 1952, there has never been a Constitutional amendment - not one.

There are two primary sources of difficulty for getting the process through the Diet in the first place. The first is post-1960s politicians' lack of understanding of the document, as it is essentially a foreign import. Traditional conventions of Japanese law regarding just about everything except national governance were upheld through and after the occupation years, so there is little continuity between the Constitution itself and the usual understanding of Japanese law.

The second and most difficult barrier is wide gaps in opinion between opposition parties that make securing a 2/3 majority difficult.

A third overarching cultural component is the endless discussion in search of concensus that typifies Japanese negotiation and decisionmaking processes.

Quoting Baguy (Reply 36):
IMHO, Japan poses absolutely no danger what so ever, as i am sure many people see. Why should they not be able to stage war? Considering a potential conflict could be happening on their doorstep.

That is the Western point of view. Despite the obviously vital economic ties between China, South Korea, and Japan, there is a strong undercurrent of distrust among Japan's neighbors about Tokyo's true intentions. All of this stems from Japan's lack of any formal apology to the countries it invaded in WWII. The average Japanese person carries a lot of resentment toward those residual attitudes, as they feel their economic progress and tremendous suffering during the postwar occupation period are sufficient to negate the need for apology. Extensive whitewashing of wartime history in the Japanese education system since the 1960s has only reinforced those attitudes in younger generations.

Critics in neighboring countries also point to the lack of censure against Japanese nationalists who have risen to political prominence as evidence that apologism for war is still alive and well. On several occasions in his long career, the Governor of Tokyo has used a slang word from the wartime period that refers to Chinese and Koreans as third rate persons with virtually no ill effects...so around and around we go. Hideki Tojo's daughter has also successfully won two campaigns for minor district seats.

Quoting Baguy (Reply 36):
On another note, could any Japanese members enlighten me on why the public opinion of changing the constitution is so low?

Japanese citizens in general are pretty apolitical, with one of the lowest voter participation rates of any developed country. Most people you ask about it will say that the country's commitment to pacifist views have created the economic conditions everyone here enjoys today and no changes are needed given the umbrella of protection the US provides. That said, public sentiment is slowly changing, since only 31% supported revision of Article 9 in 2007.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:42 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 31):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 29):
Human rights abuses don't count as a reason for intervention for both northern neighbours of North Korea, China and Russia. No matter how bad Kim treats his population, in the interpretation of international law done by thesetwo countries, it is just an "internal matter" nobody has the right to interfere in. Any other interpretation would leave both of the two countries open to critizism.

I'm sorry... but what a bullshit cop out. I'm not saying it's your fault... I'm saying that the fact that nations agree to this moronic belief, is half of the problem!

If we don't give a sh*t what happens to other humans, in other nations - because it is merely an "internal matter"... then what the hell are we doing here? Passing time?



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 35):
What's BS about it? MD11 was talking about THEIR reasoning, that is reasoning of Russia and China and the fact that "human rights" are empty words for them is a sad truth.

UH60FtRucker, I think you missunderstood me. China and Russia will never interfere in another country based on human rights, because else they will be shown worldwide as hypocrites (concerning their own less than stellar human rights records).
For them every individual is subordinate to state reason and government decisions. From their respective point of view the governments own the population, not the other way around and individuals don't matter (unless they are government members).

Russia and China will only help to bring North Korea about if either North korea threatens one of them directly or they have some other interests concerning North Korea.

Jan
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:55 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 20):
Not that it matters a whole lot but just out of curiosity, does anyone know if this thing actually made it to orbit or not? It is one thing to shoot up something in the sky really high, it is another, much more difficult one to give it enough speed so it will actually remain there.

Never mind, just found the answer to my own question. Apparently the "satellite" crashed into the Pacific Ocean.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090405/ap_on_re_as/as_nkorea_missile

What I find interesting is that, according to the North Korean news agency (that most reliable of information sources) the satellite is "transmitting the melodies of the immortal revolutionary paeans 'Song of Gen. Kim Il Sung' and 'Song of Gen. Kim Jong Il' ".
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:59 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 41):
What I find interesting is that, according to the North Korean news agency (that most reliable of information sources) the satellite is "transmitting the melodies of the immortal revolutionary paeans 'Song of Gen. Kim Il Sung' and 'Song of Gen. Kim Jong Il' ".

China's first satellite did the same. It just contained a tape recorder and a radio transmitter, plus the necessary power supply, for transmitting a praise song on Mao Zedong : "The East Is Red".

Jan
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:55 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 38):
I do think, if the North continues to thumb it's nose at the world, airstrikes MAY become necessary. I understand the "saving face" concept, but even thet South is going to feel pressure from it's own people to do something about this eventually, in ways other than words.

I understand your point of view completely, but the question is how would North Korea respond? They have nukes after all, and there is some uncertainty over who's in charge over there given that Kim Jong had a stroke last year.

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/ref..._jong_il/index.html?inline=nyt-per

I for one am not going to flame Obama on this one. What was he supposed to do? Start a war? We're already busy in Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. I don't think the US military is in a position to deal with any more problems.

The wildcard is the nukes. We don't know for sure how they plan on delivering them. Testing the missile is fine, but have they figured out how to fit a nuke into a warhead?

I doubt Bush would have done anything differently. Given his inaction on Iran, I doubt he'd want to pick a fight with the North Koreans.

We're just going to have to work with China on this one. I don't see any other way out. Kim Jong isn't going to live forever, and it will be interesting to see what happens when he dies.
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:46 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 43):
They have nukes after all

We don't know if they actually have weapons that can be used. They've been trying to get there, but are they there? I don't think we really know.

And, if they want to be stupid enough to even enteratain the idea of using them, you can bet that even China and Russia will be telling them to cease and desist.
 
ALexeu
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:59 pm

Do you really believe that North Korea could do anything with nukes ?? Who the hell would they bomb! Seoul and South Korea is unrealistic, while bombing of the USA would have no real purpose and would not improve North Korea.
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:05 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 45):
Do you really believe that North Korea could do anything with nukes ?? Who the hell would they bomb!

Tokyo or somehwere in Japan would be an option in their mind, especially with Japan ratcheting up the rhetoric themselves lately.
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Posts: 2968
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:30 pm



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 15):
All Kim understands is brute force. And until he is shown brute force, he will continue to up the anty each any every time. He sees right through the BS of the UN, US, and Europe. He is playing everyone like fools.

As has been mentioned, if the North Korean regime falls (either on its own or through outside military action) what does the international community do with all of the brainwashed North Korean citizens? They think that Kim is a god and that their nation is under constant threat of nuclear war because that is what their corrupt-to-the-core leadership constantly tells them!

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 45):
Do you really believe that North Korea could do anything with nukes ?? Who the hell would they bomb! Seoul and South Korea is unrealistic, while bombing of the USA would have no real purpose and would not improve North Korea.

The North Koreans SELL this technology to rogue governments (and thus terrorist groups) throughout the world. The problem is multi-faceted - not simply who would the North Koreans nuke.
 
ALexeu
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:06 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 46):
Tokyo or somehwere in Japan would be an option in their mind, especially with Japan ratcheting up the rhetoric themselves lately.

Japan should recognize North Korea. I still don't understand their reason for non-recognition. Even USA an UK recognize North Korea (UK has diplomatic relations too).
 
User avatar
Jetsgo
Posts: 2794
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:31 am

RE: North Korea Test Fires Missile

Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:22 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 48):
Japan should recognize North Korea.

Although I agree with you, do you really think the DPRK is within logic to bomb Tokyo just because they aren't recognized? It's way out of line, but then again, that's typical of the DPRK.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dutchy, Paars and 27 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos