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BMI727
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:23 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 49):
Hopefully not. We're talking about modern merchantman traveling at reasonably high speed in the open seas. Can't see why any fisherman would want to approach such a vessel at high speed like the pirates do.

This does sound like a job for Blackwater. Besides, who decided that shooting first and asking questions later is a bad thing when it comes to priates? Naturally, the USN should keep a presence, but why not let the shippers pay for it. Plus, how much could an updated version of the PT Boat cost? Add a turbine engine for power and versatility, update some of the weaponry and add tow missiles and the pirates wouldn't have much of a chance.
 
slider
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:28 pm

Some good articles, commentary and all have some VERY good history on piracy, how it was dealt with historically, and why it's important to deal with it decisively NOW.

And yes, you send in the Navy, the Marines and end it. No negotiations, no intellectual circle jerk. Kill the bastards.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122757123487054681.html

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04102009...umnists/anti_piracy_101_163759.htm

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/04/barry_and_the_pirates.html

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...E1YmI0NGI3MmNmMzZkMDY0MjdmMWZmZTc=

http://www.intellectualconservative....4/08/somali-pirates-tied-to-jihad/
 
PPVRA
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:33 pm

Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 34):

Yup, all of what you said is right   

Quoting Revelation (Reply 45):

I wouldn't go as far as shooting first and asking questions later, but you do have something in your constitution called a "Letter of Marque." Perhaps its time to dust it and put it to good use.

[Edited 2009-04-10 08:35:11]
 
MarSciGuy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:10 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 52):

Quoting Revelation (Reply 45):

I wouldn't go as far as shooting first and asking questions later, but you do have something in your constitution called a "Letter of Marque." Perhaps its time to dust it and put it to good use.

Hasn't been used to my knowledge in close to 200 years, but it could be the answer or a start to an answer...
 
MarSciGuy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:11 pm



Quoting Pilotsmoe (Reply 44):
I say just push them overboard. People from that part of the world can't typically swim


Apparently at least one of those 4 can...

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/af.../04/10/somalia.u.s.ship/index.html
 
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Revelation
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:42 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 52):

I wouldn't go as far as shooting first and asking questions later, but you do have something in your constitution called a "Letter of Marque." Perhaps its time to dust it and put it to good use.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_Marque#United_States

Thanks for the info - I didn't realize this existed.

Interestingly enough,

Quote:

The issue of Marque and Reprisal was raised before Congress after the September 11, 2001 attacks[3], and again on July 21, 2007 by congressman Ron Paul. The attacks were defined as acts of "air piracy," and the Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001 was introduced, which would have granted the president the authority to use Letters of Marque and Reprisal against the specific terrorists, instead of warring against a foreign state. The terrorists were compared to pirates in that they are difficult to fight by traditional military means.[4]

Seems this would have been a good law to enact.

But still I think whatever international laws that exist would cover defending a merchantman, and if there's enough cash in it, outfits like Blackwater would be all over it like bees to honey.
 
MarSciGuy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:49 pm

In other piracy news...

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/af...ca/04/10/somalia.france/index.html

I hadn't even heard of this hijacking, which just goes to show how many of these events there have been recently...
 
AGM100
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:00 pm

Our thoughts and prayers should be with our Navy / Marine personal on the scene. It is a dangerous situation , we are proud of all of them .


Love the Motto for the crew of the USS Bainbridge : "Competence, Dedication, Discipline" says it all.

Big version: Width: 197 Height: 250 File size: 82kb
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:27 am

Call in the Indian Navy...They'll show how to deal with these pirates.
regds
MEL
 
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bwest
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:51 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 58):
Call in the Indian Navy...They'll show how to deal with these pirates.

Didn't they manage to blow up a fishing boat filled with Thais, which they mistook for a pirate vessel?

It's worth looking into what exactly caused these pirates to start raiding ships. Most of them were just fishermen, but since the collapse of the central government of Somalia, fishermen from other countries took advantage from the lack of the enforcement of law. They came with large fishing boats... floating factories really, cleaned out the entire Somali coastal waters, leaving the Somali fishermen without an income. But with a lot of weaponry, thanks to 20 years of civil war. And seeing those container ships passing by daily, it was an opportunity too good to miss.

Anyway, not that I approve of their actions, but I am wondering what I would do when faced with that situation...
 
ltbewr
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:55 pm



Quoting Bwest (Reply 59):
It's worth looking into what exactly caused these pirates to start raiding ships.

Problem is now it isn't just ex-fishermen involved, but many others desprite for income in a place with no governance or enough legitment income sources. When you are hungry you will turn to crime. We need to re-establish some governance there to end the mob/tribal situation they have now.
Right now the pirates in this situation with the Captain are being watched every minute by the US and other navel forces. His picture and info on him is all over the media which hightens the need to get him out alive instead of killing all in an action on them. They are stuck on a tiny boat, in 100 F/ 40 C tempatures or more, with limited food and water. It's a nasty situation and hopefully will make they give up soon, the Captain rescued and the pirates if not immediatly executed sent to Gitmo and tried for terrorism. If they don't give up, then maybe we have to sacrafice the Captain's live to kill these terrorist and make a point not to mess with USA flagged ships.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:00 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 60):
Problem is now it isn't just ex-fishermen involved, but many others desprite for income in a place with no governance or enough legitment income sources. When you are hungry you will turn to crime. We need to re-establish some governance there to end the mob/tribal situation they have now.

That'd be fine in an ideal world, but in the real world, the US has tried the "nation building" approach for decades now, and it just doesn't work. You may say Iraq is a proof point, but we've put billions of dollars and many thousands of lives into the effort, and we won't know if it works for 10 years or so after we've left.

Bottom line is people get the government they demand. If they're OK with no government or with a dictatorship, that's what they get. Luckily for the US, a bunch of free thinkers left the UK a few centuries ago and got to start from scratch. I suppose native americans would argue with that, though.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:03 pm



Quoting Bwest (Reply 59):
It's worth looking into what exactly caused these pirates to start raiding ships. Most of them were just fishermen, but since the collapse of the central government of Somalia, fishermen from other countries took advantage from the lack of the enforcement of law. They came with large fishing boats... floating factories really, cleaned out the entire Somali coastal waters, leaving the Somali fishermen without an income. But with a lot of weaponry, thanks to 20 years of civil war. And seeing those container ships passing by daily, it was an opportunity too good to miss.

You forgot one thing: Once the Somali war lords (read organised crime) with their private armies noticed how much money was made by robbing ships, they muscled in and took over. The times, when p*ssed off fishermen were trying to defend their coasts are over. Today piracy is a well organised industry. Sure, there are still jobs available for out of work fishermen, but essentially theyare cannon fodder in the attack teams. The real money goes to the fat cats in the background.
Also don't forget that the Somali pirates now operate from motherships far off the coast.

Concerning the Indian navyaction, you are right, the sunk ship was a Thai fishing vessel, but one which had just been captured by pirates a short time before. The Indians fired back after the pirates opened fire at them.

Jan
 
AGC525
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:22 pm

Now an American-owned tugboat with an Italian crew has been hijacked

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,514461,00.html
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:25 pm

Looks like an American-owned tugboat (albeit Italian-flagged) has also been hijacked.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090411/ap_on_re_af/piracy

Also, the Bainbridge has been reinforced by the USS Halyburton (FFG-40) and the flagship of the antipiracy task force, the USS Boxer (LHD-4). With the captain of the Maersk Alabama having made one escape attempt already and attempts by the pirates to call in reinforcements I think this situation is becoming increasingly time critical ...
 
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Revelation
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:11 pm



Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 64):
USS Boxer (LHD-4)

Yes:

Quote:
The Wasp class has an air group of helicopters that are used to ferry Marines and equipment to the shore from the ships. These helicopters are supplemented by a squadron of up to eight AV-8B Harrier II V/STOL ground-attack aircraft. Up to 20 Harriers can be embarked when the ship is used as a temporary STOVL or "Harrier Carrier."[2] They also possess a "well"-deck for launching smaller landing craft, up to three Landing Craft Air Cushion (LCAC) hovercraft or Landing Craft Utility (LCUs).

Ref: LHD-4" target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LHD-4

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasp_class_amphibious_assault_ship

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 62):
You forgot one thing: Once the Somali war lords (read organised crime) with their private armies noticed how much money was made by robbing ships, they muscled in and took over. The times, when p*ssed off fishermen were trying to defend their coasts are over. Today piracy is a well organised industry. Sure, there are still jobs available for out of work fishermen, but essentially theyare cannon fodder in the attack teams. The real money goes to the fat cats in the background.
Also don't forget that the Somali pirates now operate from motherships far off the coast.

Looks like USS Boxer should have no problems with tracking down the motherships, launching a boarding party and/or blasting the ship to kingdom come.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 62):
Concerning the Indian navyaction, you are right, the sunk ship was a Thai fishing vessel, but one which had just been captured by pirates a short time before. The Indians fired back after the pirates opened fire at them.

 checkmark 

Cheers to the Indian Navy! Great sailors, great food!  Smile
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:32 am



Quoting Bwest (Reply 59):
Didn't they manage to blow up a fishing boat filled with Thais, which they mistook for a pirate vessel?

There were pirates on that ship that fired at the Indian Navy......

Quoting Revelation (Reply 65):
Cheers to the Indian Navy! Great sailors, great food!

The food keeps their spirits up I guess  Smile

The only way to clear this pirate mess is for navies all over the world to strike at them with full intensity.
regds
MEL
 
NorthstarBoy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:25 am

Allow me to depart from my normal, warm fuzzy liberal self a moment.

The way i see it, the current SOP when it comes to dealing with piracy is the whole problem. the pirates take a ship and demand ransome, the company pays the ransome to the pirates, gets reimbursed by their insurance company and business goes on, in the meantime, the pirates are using the money to upgrade their weapons and capabilities to go out and capture more ships. As long as the pirates know they're going to continue to be rewarded for this kind of behavior, they're going to continue it. Obviously, this taking ships and kidnapping crew behavior is not acceptable, so what we need to do is give them a good swift slap on the hand with enough force and pain that they think twice before doing it again. And when they start to whine and complain about being denied the right to make a living, another good swift slap on the hand followed by "We Don't Care." Should suffice.

i'd say let's let the boys in the F-16s and B-2s have some fun in the skies over Mogadishu, blow up a few warlords and a few hundred of their minions, and do this every time a ship is taken, and pretty soon, the remaining warlords are going to realize that the gain is not worth the pain and the piracy will stop.

In the meantime, i send my best to Captain Phillips, if anyone is deserving of a CMH, it's him.

Now, back to my normal, warm fuzzy liberal self
 
BMI727
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:51 am



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 67):
i'd say let's let the boys in the F-16s and B-2s have some fun in the skies over Mogadishu,

That may be a bit excessive. I would use P-3s and AC-130s in hunter-killer teams to stop the pirates. That combination could sink anything up to destroyer size. I would also advocate looking into basing Cobra gunships on destroyers and frigates for added punch and response capability.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:16 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 67):

Allow me to depart from my normal, warm fuzzy liberal self a moment.

The way i see it, the current SOP when it comes to dealing with piracy is the whole problem. the pirates take a ship and demand ransome, the company pays the ransome to the pirates, gets reimbursed by their insurance company and business goes on, in the meantime, the pirates are using the money to upgrade their weapons and capabilities to go out and capture more ships. As long as the pirates know they're going to continue to be rewarded for this kind of behavior, they're going to continue it. Obviously, this taking ships and kidnapping crew behavior is not acceptable, so what we need to do is give them a good swift slap on the hand with enough force and pain that they think twice before doing it again. And when they start to whine and complain about being denied the right to make a living, another good swift slap on the hand followed by "We Don't Care." Should suffice.

i'd say let's let the boys in the F-16s and B-2s have some fun in the skies over Mogadishu, blow up a few warlords and a few hundred of their minions, and do this every time a ship is taken, and pretty soon, the remaining warlords are going to realize that the gain is not worth the pain and the piracy will stop.

In the meantime, i send my best to Captain Phillips, if anyone is deserving of a CMH, it's him.

Now, back to my normal, warm fuzzy liberal self

Mogadishu isn´t involved in this at all the government controlls only part of the capital none of the areas up north where the pirates origin from and you think you can go in attack civilians on land unpunished? Somalis are fighters and wellarmed fighters, if you kill someones family who do you think they going to act against next ship of US citizens?
Only solution is to breakup Somalia like Sovietunion was broken up, all other attempts are just waste of time. Somalia is slightligy bigger than New Mexico (add New Jersey to it)
and got a very long coast, it´s 3/4 of size of Iraq which US had all kind of problems trying to controll.
So go back and watch Team America once again...

[Edited 2009-04-12 04:24:51]
 
Stealthz
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:02 pm

The resources sent by the USN might send a message some companies, especially those that take advantage of flags of convenience.

When your "convenience" flagged ship is attacked it is hard to conceive of 50,000 tons of ships , 3,000 troops and an undisclosed number of aircraft being dispatched to your aid by the Liberian or Panamanian navies.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:32 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Seahawk.750pix.jpg


When I flew out to the USS Bainbridge, it did not have any organic air assets on board. I'm pretty sure they still don't. Although obviously the USS Boxer does, I just wanted to make this small correction.

-UH60
 
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par13del
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:56 pm

If the current reports are accurate, the drifting life boat with the Captain and pirates onboard is within 40miles of the coast, my opinion, that life boat cannot be allowed to get to land, if it does, the US will pay the ransom.
Unfortunately, the way politics works today, if it is paid a few months later outside of the public eye, all is well, the mantra that we do not negotiate with terrorist or hostage takers is preserved. When released, only his home town, family and friends will care, the rest of us will already be captavted by whatever else the media throws at us as the current topic of the day.

Now my solution, I believe that one should offer solutions rather than just saying what will not work. Divers in the water, at least two with an extra tank and breather for the captain, who is probably tied up. The lifeboat has to be sunk or overturned somehow, best way a diver at night coming up under the ratft. Once in the water, its everyman for himself, trust in the divers to get to the captain in time with air, my asumption is that these guys are not suicide folks who while drowning will try to kill the captain as a last defiant act.

Another question, how easy is it today with the modern 4" guns to disable the engine or propulsion system on a ship, news was that the pirates were putting to sea in boats already captured to aid their brethren in the lifeboat, could those vessels have been disabled?
 
MarSciGuy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:06 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 72):
Now my solution, I believe that one should offer solutions rather than just saying what will not work. Divers in the water, at least two with an extra tank and breather for the captain, who is probably tied up. The lifeboat has to be sunk or overturned somehow, best way a diver at night coming up under the ratft. Once in the water, its everyman for himself, trust in the divers to get to the captain in time with air, my asumption is that these guys are not suicide folks who while drowning will try to kill the captain as a last defiant act.

It's a covered lifeboat, which would make this type of operation much more diecy for everyone involved.
 
us330
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:15 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 9):
We have to start letting these ships have guns to protect themselves.

As others have commented, this is a ship-by-ship decision, usually made by the ship's owners for insurance or cargo security purposes.

Quoting VC10 (Reply 21):
So I understand it this is a Danish ship flying the USA flag with 20 crew members, all American .

This sounds very strange to me as most ship's crew today are from the third world

the strangest thing about this entire thing is that none of the ships involved are flying a liberian, panamanian, or marshall islands flag.....

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 69):
Mogadishu isn´t involved in this at all the government controlls only part of the capital none of the areas up north where the pirates origin from and you think you can go in attack civilians on land unpunished? Somalis are fighters and wellarmed fighters, if you kill someones family who do you think they going to act against next ship of US citizens?
Only solution is to breakup Somalia like Sovietunion was broken up, all other attempts are just waste of time

You're right in that somalia is a failed state, and that saying mogadishu should be held responsible for their actions is entirely misguided, and recipe for a foreign policy failure.

I hate using the term "cowboy diplomacy," which I find to be a bit of a misnomer, ("guns-a-blazing" or "shoot first" would be more appropriate), but we need to replicate what the British empire did on the barbary coast in Somalia. Take em out both on land and at sea. Attack their home bases and the ports that offer them safe harbor.
This shouldn't be a solely US operation--piracy in this region affects shipping lanes to and from the suez canal, and thus, international trade as a whole. It needs to be an international effort.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:42 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 71):
When I flew out to the USS Bainbridge, it did not have any organic air assets on board. I'm pretty sure they still don't. Although obviously the USS Boxer does, I just wanted to make this small correction.

Interesting, The wiki page implied that all Arleigh Burke guided missile destroyers from DDG-79 onward would have two SH-60s on board. Of course, you saw it didn't with your own two eyes, so I'll defer to you on this one!  Smile

I wonder what the general rule is about putting a detachment of helos on an Arleigh Burke is. I can see from some mavy.mil web sites they do detach a few units of a helo squad to the destroyers, depending on the mission. I wonder what kind of missions rate helo support?
 
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STT757
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:50 pm

It's over, three Somali pirates dead and one in custody. Captain freed and unharmed;

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30178013/

Don't mess with Navy SEALS.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:05 pm

The best possible outcome! Glad some of those pirates bought it. I would have liked to see them all blown right out of the water. Now lets hope someone does something and gives these ships the resources to begin to start doing likewise and inflicting harm on anyone who tries to hijack a ship.
 
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par13del
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:06 pm

Good to know the hostage is safe, unfortunately all the pirates were not taken alive to stand trial.

Big question is where do we go from here, obviously everyone would like things to die down to a more manageable level which does not raise the public concern, piracy has been around for years and Somalia is attempting to turn the clocks back to the good old days. I do believe that governments and the UN will have to take control and remove much of the clout from the ship owners and insurers whose only concern is the money for the cargo on each ship.

There are enough naval ships in the area to arrange a convoy schedule, have ships delayed for a day or two on the north and south transit and put them into a convoy, its the easiest way to protect the ships versus trying to flood the massive area with ships which no one has and or wants to put in the region. More bang for the little buck, arrange convoys.
 
National757
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:21 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 78):
More bang for the little buck, arrange convoys.

IMO that's a really good idea. Why hasn't there been any serious consideration to having commercial ships travel in convoys with military escort to try and deter piracy?
 
Alessandro
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:07 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 76):
It's over, three Somali pirates dead and one in custody. Captain freed and unharmed;

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30178013/

Don't mess with Navy SEALS.

Not over, more ships await to be hijacked.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:09 pm



Quoting National757 (Reply 79):


IMO that's a really good idea. Why hasn't there been any serious consideration to having commercial ships travel in convoys with military escort to try and deter piracy?

Indians been doing that, now there´s navies from around 14 nations active in the fight against the pirates, big task on hand.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:12 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 74):
You're right in that somalia is a failed state, and that saying mogadishu should be held responsible for their actions is entirely misguided, and recipe for a foreign policy failure.

I hate using the term "cowboy diplomacy," which I find to be a bit of a misnomer, ("guns-a-blazing" or "shoot first" would be more appropriate), but we need to replicate what the British empire did on the barbary coast in Somalia. Take em out both on land and at sea. Attack their home bases and the ports that offer them safe harbor.
This shouldn't be a solely US operation--piracy in this region affects shipping lanes to and from the suez canal, and thus, international trade as a whole. It needs to be an international effort.

The key in such operation is the Ethiopians, they´re the regional powerhouse and can do such operation.
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:36 pm

Excellent news, well done to the USN  Smile



Lee
 
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par13del
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:26 pm



Quoting National757 (Reply 79):
Why hasn't there been any serious consideration to having commercial ships travel in convoys with military escort to try and deter piracy?



Quoting Par13del (Reply 78):
I do believe that governments and the UN will have to take control and remove much of the clout from the ship owners and insurers whose only concern is the money for the cargo on each ship.

Presently the navies that are in the area are being financied by tax payors, the insurers and owners are not being held to account from a financial or moral standpoint. Its a vast area, if a company has 12 ships transiting none may be attacked, if one is, the ransom for that one is easily offset by the value of the other 11, purely a gambling situation. Any schedule change or delay in movement while awaiting the assembly of a convoy schedule is unacceptable, it has to get much worse before they are willing to accept "outside" intervention.

Eventually, tax payors are going to ask how, why and for what is their money being spent, expect a backlash then, not before.
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:09 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 76):
Don't mess with Navy SEALS.

Nuff said.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 80):
Not over, more ships await to be hijacked.

Then a few more of those bastards will share the same fate.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:37 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 74):
but we need to replicate what the British empire did on the barbary coast

The 2 Barbary wars were largely American affairs although an Anglo-Dutch fleet joined in the second Barbary war of 1815.
Curiously and as mentioned earlier in this thread one of the American commanders of the Second Barbary war was Commodore William Bainbridge(also a veteran of the earlier conflict)
 
NIKV69
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:15 pm



Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 85):
Then a few more of those bastards will share the same fate.

Only alternative is to arm these ships or give them armed security forces onboard or we will just go around in circles here.
 
curlyheadboy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:53 pm



Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 85):
Quoting STT757 (Reply 76):
Don't mess with Navy SEALS.

Nuff said.

I'm surprised of how naive those pirates were that they thought a single hostage could be enought to keep the USN into a lenghty standoff. Had they kept control of the ship and entire crew would have been a different story but, hey... after they were overcome by the crew they should have got the hell out of there.
The only smart guy was the one who went to "negotiate" (surrendered).
 
ltbewr
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:48 am

I hope the still alive terrorist-pirate is properly and throughly interrogated by professionals (no 'waterboarding') to get the info needed like who he worked under and where they hide. They he should be arrested and face charges for piracy which are well established under US law and International agreements. One possible twist I heard with 1 news report is that some of these pirates could be only 16 years old. That could complicate things as could conflict with international agreements.
Still this was an extraordinary turn of events, something that I feared could have led to the death of the Captain to make the point that we will not tolarate piracy upon American flagged ships.
 
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par13del
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:33 am



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 89):
I hope the still alive terrorist-pirate is properly and throughly interrogated by professionals (no 'waterboarding') to get the info needed like who he worked under and where they hide.

Define proper, hope you do not include sleep deprivation.

Only intel of any value would be the names of the mother ships which go offshore to launch the pirate attacks. There is no recognized govt. to arrest or even deport those he may identify, the names of other pirates and where they live means nothing as no one is planning an invasion, based on the number of hijackings, there are probably more than one organized groups involved, multiple heads no single one.

Another idea would be to have the area declared a conflict zone or something like that which may allow the arming of merchant ships, the solutions to this has to be off shore, no one is interested in nation building, hardened targets may be the only viable option.
 
blrsea
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:09 am

The pirates got what they deserved. Quite a clean operation by USN seals, I must say, to pick off three pirates near dusk!

Hope the pirates don't start knocking off hostages after they take over a ship the next time around.
 
baroque
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:28 am



Quoting Blrsea (Reply 91):
Hope the pirates don't start knocking off hostages after they take over a ship the next time around.

Quite. Stand by for the next type of escalation. Not paying ransoms would be a good idea.

Odd how difficult it is to get the convoy concept system adopted. First in two world wars and now with piracy.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:11 am



Quoting Blrsea (Reply 91):
The pirates got what they deserved. Quite a clean operation by USN seals, I must say, to pick off three pirates near dusk!

What I find quite amazing is three head-shots, near simultaneously, at sea between two ships moving independently on the swells. I assume the seas were pretty flat at the time.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 92):
Odd how difficult it is to get the convoy concept system adopted. First in two world wars and now with piracy.

Convoys play havoc on routing structures and time-lines for transit of freight, something no shipping company wants to deal with unless forced to. Convoys require a lot of coordination between countries, companies, and ports. It's not something that's "just done" easily.

Tugg
 
baroque
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:04 am



Quoting Tugger (Reply 93):
Convoys play havoc on routing structures and time-lines for transit of freight, something no shipping company wants to deal with unless forced to. Convoys require a lot of coordination between countries, companies, and ports. It's not something that's "just done" easily.

In the case of WWI and WWII, it was not those running the companies that risked swallowing a torpedo and in this case not those risking having a vacation in pirates heaven. I think if you were to find someone running the companies from 1939 in the UK and 1942 in the US, they would concede that compared with the losses, organizing a convoy was rather easy. So I beg to differ.

What seems odds on, is that next time conditions will not be as easy. Sod's law tells us that.  sigh 
 
MarSciGuy
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:56 am



Quoting Tugger (Reply 93):


Quoting Blrsea (Reply 91):
The pirates got what they deserved. Quite a clean operation by USN seals, I must say, to pick off three pirates near dusk!

What I find quite amazing is three head-shots, near simultaneously, at sea between two ships moving independently on the swells. I assume the seas were pretty flat at the time.

The seas were not flat from what I read, and yes, it's incredible that it was pulled off successfully! I was against this earlier in the thread thinking it was not possible to pull off - well, I'll eat my words now  Wink though maybe having the 4th pirate out of the picture made it possible  Smile.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:50 am



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 89):
I hope the still alive terrorist-pirate is properly and throughly interrogated by professionals (no 'waterboarding') to get the info needed like who he worked under and where they hide

I knew the waterboarding thing would enter here at some point. Actually we pretty much know all we need too about these pirates so a lengthy sit down isn't going to yield much. We know where they are and what they do and where the hostages from other countries are. It's a question of what to do.
 
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par13del
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:50 am



Quoting Blrsea (Reply 91):
Hope the pirates don't start knocking off hostages after they take over a ship the next time around.

What is strange is that a couple days before, the French rescued some of their citizens with fatalities on both side, there was no outrage by the pirates threatning that the next time France would be the one mourning and crying. The US then does the same thing - did they learn from the French - and now we have the pirates threats of violence against the US in all forms of interviews to the world media, what am I missing?
 
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Revelation
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:36 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 94):
I think if you were to find someone running the companies from 1939 in the UK and 1942 in the US, they would concede that compared with the losses, organizing a convoy was rather easy. So I beg to differ.

Yes, but now it seems shipping companies are happier to just go around the horn of Africa instead of using the Gulf of Aden and the Suez Canal.

Seems they really don't like convoys nor escorts.

Even more so, given piracy is picking up on the horn of Africa routes too.

Strange, isn't it?
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5558
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RE: Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans

Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:01 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 98):
Yes, but now it seems shipping companies are happier to just go around the horn of Africa instead of using the Gulf of Aden and the Suez Canal.

Perhaps you mean they are using the Cape of Good Hope route around the tip of South Africa.
The Horn of Africa is precisely the area currently afflicted with Somalian piracy, you cannot use the Suez, Red Sea and Gulf of Aden without passing the Horn of Africa.

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