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Falcon84
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WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:05 am

On this one, the WH, the DOD and the FAA screwed up royally, and deserve an earful.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/27/low.flying.plane/index.html

I think the talk in this article about a lawsuit is pretty ridiculous, but there's no doubt this was numbnutted move. And to not tell Mayor Bloomberg?

Why would anyone 1. think of doing this in the very vicinity of the WTC attacks? And 2. why, if you're going to do it, do you not let the public know well ahead of time?
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D L X
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:15 am

I don't have the slightest problem with doing the flyby. Seriously, I think after 7 years, it's time for New Yorkers to stop assuming everything that's not absolutely normal is terrorism.

The only problem I have is that they kept it secret. Now, if they had a really good reason to keep it secret, then they also had a really good reason to not do the exercise.

Apparently, Obama was PISSED when he found out. God I want to see him get angry.  Silly
 
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seb146
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:31 am

I read the story on AOL and the part I found refreshing was, instead of saying "I don't know what happened, don't blame me" we heard from Louis Caldera, director of the White House Military Office say "I approved a mission over New York. I take responsibility for that decision." Still, the right will have a field day with this. I can hear it already....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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ER757
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:26 am

Besides spending the $$ to fly a 747 and a fighter up to and around NYC for a photo op when with today's technology, the shot could very easily have been photoshopped, a good number of folks in NYC were un-necessarily made nervous if not outright panicked. A pretty lame-brained idea all around.
 
Jeremy
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:05 am



Quoting D L X (Reply 1):
Apparently, Obama was PISSED when he found out. God I want to see him get angry.

I am sure he knew beforehand.
I highly doubt his jet was in the sky over NY without him knowing.
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Stealthz
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:47 am



Quoting Jeremy (Reply 4):
I highly doubt his jet was in the sky over NY without him knowing.

Why would he, Would he need to know?
There are lot's of things for him to need to be concerned with, there are others to worry about transport etc.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:55 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 2):
we heard from Louis Caldera, director of the White House Military Office say "I approved a mission over New York. I take responsibility for that decision

Before anyone else says this was a dumb, newbie decision by the Obama Administration, people should be aware that Caldera was the Secretary of the Army under the Clinton Administration and president of the University of New Mexico. Caldera was also on the board of the now-defunct Indy Mac Bank...... good decision-making seems to have been a challenge for him in the past.  Angry
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FreequentFlier
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:08 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 2):
I read the story on AOL and the part I found refreshing was, instead of saying "I don't know what happened, don't blame me" we heard from Louis Caldera, director of the White House Military Office say "I approved a mission over New York. I take responsibility for that decision." Still, the right will have a field day with this. I can hear it already....

Yes, we will. Not that I'm enjoying it. It just proves our point that electing someone with ZERO executive experience was incredibly stupid. But we did it anyway. And now real people are being hurt by it all over our country. I really take no pleasure in saying I told you so.

Seriously, how difficult would it have been for someone in the federal government to notify the Mayor Bloomberg that there would by a fly by 747 photo op today?? That is not rocket science, and failing to do so would result in immediate termination in the private sector.

And who approved this financially? It's not like we're swimming in budget surpluses right now for 747 photo ops.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:48 am



Quoting Jeremy (Reply 4):

I highly doubt his jet was in the sky over NY without him knowing.

He expects the people in charge of AF-1 to have an aircraft ready for him to fly at a moment's notice.

As long as they are doing that, he doesn't care where the other plane is. And probably had no idea.

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 7):

Yes, we will. Not that I'm enjoying it. It just proves our point that electing someone with ZERO executive experience was incredibly stupid. But we did it anyway. And now real people are being hurt by it all over our country. I really take no pleasure in saying I told you so.

So some underling made a bonehead error in which a bunch of people were frightened due to a misunderstanding, but nobody got hurt and nobody was ever in anything remotely resembling real danger as a direct effect of said bonehead error. And this leads you to conclude that Obama is unworthy to be present.
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Flyingfox27
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:31 am

Its a tricky subject really to discuss whether New Yorkers are *over it or not* - for instance, if a young child, say 5 years old was bitten by a dog, with or without help, he or she will still be petrified of dogs when that child reaches adulthood.

I know one person who has been bitten by a dg but overcame her fear only because they had a friendly puppy living in the house soon after. But its not always that easy to conquer fear of another attack.

Now i know comparing terrorists to dogs might not make any sense but iam trying to think that way because to the affected people, the attacks are still fresh even if it is so many years after.

What the authorities should have done is announce this excersize was being done and keep announcing it maybe a week in advance or do a poll for the New Yorkers to let them think if its a good idea or not.

Now i know in this world its an increasing case of *oh, if you ask they will obviously say no so lets go ahead without asking* which isnt good really.

Also, think of the Hillsborough stadium disaster where 96 people died...... 20 years on and the anger and fear is still fresh in those victims and survivors minds, now something is going to happen because they have pressed for answers. So you see, it dosent really leave you if you have been affected.
 
sasd209
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:41 am



Quoting D L X (Reply 1):
I don't have the slightest problem with doing the flyby. Seriously, I think after 7 years, it's time for New Yorkers to stop assuming everything that's not absolutely normal is terrorism.

The only problem I have is that they kept it secret. Now, if they had a really good reason to keep it secret, then they also had a really good reason to not do the exercise.

Apparently, Obama was PISSED when he found out. God I want to see him get angry.

A large aircraft flying low and slow, out of a usual airway, with a military escort, around the area of a previous terrorist attack, in the area of a National landmark is in no way normal and should be viewed with a degree of caution/apprehension. Esp by those who have lived through an attack....Perhaps you're being a bit hasty in judging their reactions to such an event.

When I saw the youtube footage, I thought "..not again" even thought I knew by then it was a photoshoot....my mind had made itself up even though I knew better. See where I'm going? Give New Yorkers a break, they're still a target and they know it.

As for the rest, well I'll offer my humble opinion. I'd have preferred they do this on a Sunday afternoon with prior public notifications as opposed to a Monday morning with no public notice. If it needed to be done at all, hell, they must have enough publicity shots of the VC-25 by this point. Did Obama know about it? It could be that some staffer said "We're gonna do a AF1 photoshoot over the Statue of Liberty, any problems?" And he probably said "no, sounds good", just like any other President would have said, trusting his staffers to handle it correctly; which they didn't in this case IMO.


Draw your own conclusions, I think it was poorly planned and executed; but there was no malice intended at all.
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:49 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
So some underling made a bonehead error in which a bunch of people were frightened due to a misunderstanding, but nobody got hurt and nobody was ever in anything remotely resembling real danger as a direct effect of said bonehead error. And this leads you to conclude that Obama is unworthy to be present.

Not in of itself. It's just a symptom of something larger. A better example would be the fact that he actually gave a press conference to brag about $100 million in spending cuts over several years when his own budget crunchers predict TRILLION dollar deficits each year for the next ten if the budget he wants is passed by Congress (and with the Dems in charge, it surely will). That insults both your intelligence and mine.

Want another example that could have been cut in order to save money in the budget? This stupid 747 photo op.
 
studedave
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:52 am

Do you think that if the USAF would have used anything but an F-16 as the photo-bird, they would have gotten a lot less flak??? I do. Use one of those Gulfstreams next time, man...
Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:59 am

To show I'm not trying to be partisan specifically here, I had serious reservations about Palin as VP. I thought she lacked enough experience to handle the job. This despite the fact that she was:

A) Already a Governor and thus had executive experience (unlike Obama)
and
B) Running for VP, not President (unlike Obama)

We just elected a guy as CEO of the free world who had never run so much as a hot dog stand. I don't know if you work in the private sector or not, but that would NEVER happen there. EVER.

It was never a partisan criticism to bring up his lack of executive experience, and in fact I considered it the most serious criticism of the President. I've made no effort to hide than I lean right (more of a libertarian if anything) but among the major parties, i probably would have gone with Hillary over McCain. At least her husband ran a moderately well run government, balanced budgets and promoted free trade.

I'm quite frankly furious that we elected these incompetents to head the nation. The public gets the government it deserves.

Flying a large aircraft over New York City with a military escort trailing right behind without ANY warning whatsoever...what the hell were they thinking? Would it have been so hard to notify the mayor? I guess I'm just frustrated because I worry it's only going to get worse from here. If they can't catch the obvious things, how are they going to catch the not-so-obvious things?

Best not to think about it I guess.
 
Klaus
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:18 am



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 13):
We just elected a guy as CEO of the free world who had never run so much as a hot dog stand. I don't know if you work in the private sector or not, but that would NEVER happen there. EVER.

Except for running the global economy into the ground, that is...  mischievous 

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 13):
I'm quite frankly furious that we elected these incompetents to head the nation. The public gets the government it deserves.

You're almost exactly eight years too late with that revelation.
 
RedChili
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:47 am

I read in the previous thread a lot of people stating that all flights of the so-called AF1 are secret, even when the president is not on board.

In October 1999, Clinton came to Norway on the same day I was flying out of OSL. Everybody in Norway knew about it, and everybody knew at approximately what time the airplane was supposed to arrive. And national TV broadcast the arrival on live TV.

If the president can visit other countries, and everybody knows when the plane is supposed to land, why is it such a big problem to tell everybody in New York that an empty plane will fly over the city?
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D L X
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:08 am



Quoting SASD209 (Reply 10):
A large aircraft flying low and slow, out of a usual airway, with a military escort, around the area of a previous terrorist attack, in the area of a National landmark is in no way normal and should be viewed with a degree of caution/apprehension. Esp by those who have lived through an attack....Perhaps you're being a bit hasty in judging their reactions to such an event.

I work in Washington DC, right downtown next to the White House. Just this month, we had an ACTUAL airspace incursion where an F-16 had to escort the guy out to where he would be arrested. An F-16 over my building with the President in lockdown, and there was no panic. To throw in a little more, you can see the Pentagon from my window, and it was very obvious when the 9/11 attacks hit us.

No panic in DC with a real event, and pandemonium in New York with a non-event. Can you explain the difference?

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 13):
To show I'm not trying to be partisan specifically here

HAHAHAHAHA

Come on dude. Not only are you rehashing arguments that 90% of the country dismissed last year, but you're wrong on the facts anyway due to partisan blinders.
 
dragon6172
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:02 am



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 7):
And who approved this financially? It's not like we're swimming in budget surpluses right now for 747 photo ops.

It falls under pilot training. Need to log a certain amount of hours to maintain proficiency, so if you are going flying anyhow, why not include this photo op as part of the flight. When I was in, we would routinely take "trips" because we had training hours to use.

Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
Not only are you rehashing arguments that 90% of the country dismissed last year,

I believe it was around 56% of the country that voted for him, not 90.
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D L X
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:14 am



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 17):
I believe it was around 56% of the country that voted for him, not 90.

You didn't have to vote for him to find that argument ridiculous.
 
dragon6172
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:27 am



Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
You didn't have to vote for him to find that argument ridiculous.

I think it remained a rather valid argument for most who voted the other way. I believe that the argument over birth records and citizenship was found ridiculous by 90 percent though.
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par13del
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:34 am



Quoting RedChili (Reply 15):
If the president can visit other countries, and everybody knows when the plane is supposed to land, why is it such a big problem to tell everybody in New York that an empty plane will fly over the city?

Because Norway is an independent country and the US has to obey your rules and laws if it wanted the presidents plane to land in your country, its that simple, respect for other nations.

New York city is a country within the United States, and those in power, rightly regard it as their domain to do with as they please, its called the political system which has the people go to the polls to elect their leaders, last time they did that, they became the first of the major industrial nations to elect a minority leader.

Some knuckle head, who comes alonf with the administration decided to update the photos of the presidents a/c and decided a photo shoot over New York would be in order, I;m ok with that, they have the money and for nation symbols it should be real not photo shop. So for me, here's the problem.

1. FAA office in New York should have had more balls
2. NYPD should have remembered who they report to and who they work for, the people of New York not the money that the Fed have been giving since 9/11 to buy equipment and fund terrorist operations

Maybe just maybe if those who were notified and told to keep quiet had notified their superiors, they may have gotton the decision changed, at the least general notification may have been given. One man does not run a nation, nor does one man think of everything, in this case, I support the extreme punishment, no second chance for the individual responsible.

At a time when the President is telling his cabinet to give him spending cuts, this was a waste of money, and how it was implemented was totally insensitive and clueless.
 
windy95
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:14 pm



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 17):
I believe it was around 56% of the country that voted for him, not 90

less than 53% actually. Nice try though
 
avalon2862
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:18 pm



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 13):
To show I'm not trying to be partisan specifically here, I had serious reservations about Palin as VP. I thought she lacked enough experience to handle the job. This despite the fact that she was:

A) Already a Governor and thus had executive experience (unlike Obama)
and
B) Running for VP, not President (unlike Obama)

Yep... she is doing a "bang-up" job there in Alaska! Abusing her position to further family feuds! Using the press to air dirty laundry regarding her teenage daughter's love life. She's a real winner alright!

And she wasn't RUNNING for VP.. you don't run for that office! She was "hand-picked" by that nit-wit McCain.. so you should question HIS competency by picking someone with NO experience in Washington politics! Yeah.. I would have wanted someone with HIS kind of strategy abilities running my country!.. NOT!  Yeah sure

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 13):
We just elected a guy as CEO of the free world who had never run so much as a hot dog stand. I don't know if you work in the private sector or not, but that would NEVER happen there. EVER.

In the private sector, BODs and stockholders choose greedy, incompetent people to run large corporations into the ground with their poor management skills! How many large corporations have gone bankrupt in the past 5 years? How many airlines? How many CEO's have been forced out because of mis-management and greed? You can't blame Obama for that.. and you can't blame the voting public!

And just for the record, what were McCain's "executive credentials"? If I recall, he's just a Senator, as well... just like... hmmm President Obama?  Cool I don't see and experience as a CEO on his resume? He went from being a swab-jockey to being a politician.

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 13):
i probably would have gone with Hillary over McCain. At least her husband ran a moderately well run government, balanced budgets and promoted free trade.

Now there is a SMART argument! "Choose Clinton because she was married to a former President!" With a qualification like that, who would doubt her abilities to run our country?  Yeah sure She had AS LITTLE experience in running something as Obama did. She was a junior Senator - just like Obama. She is a lawyer - just like Obama. Would you care to explain how SHE was more qualified?

If you are going to make such decidedly REPUBLICAN arguments, please.. at LEAST make them credible and with good merit!
 
mt99
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:20 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 21):
less than 53% actually. Nice try though

But his approval rating now is higher than 60%. Gotta love the majority!
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RedChili
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:28 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 20):
Because Norway is an independent country and the US has to obey your rules and laws if it wanted the presidents plane to land in your country, its that simple, respect for other nations.

I understand that. But I still think it's puzzling if the Secret Service requires more security around an empty "AF1" flying within the USA than what they can ever expect when the president travels abroad.

Also, when the president travels within the USA, are his trips always a secret? If he's going to visit Los Angeles, will they tell the public about it on the day before he's coming? Or will he just show up and say "surprise, surprise"?

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 21):
Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 17):
I believe it was around 56% of the country that voted for him, not 90

less than 53% actually. Nice try though

Actually, it was only 22.7 percent of the country that voted for him, 69,456,897 votes out of a population of 306,307,000 (Wiki numbers).
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
Mir
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:47 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Why would anyone 1. think of doing this in the very vicinity of the WTC attacks?

Because a shot of Air Force One against the Statue of Liberty and the NYC skyline would look amazing. I'd be very proud to have my city as the backdrop for a photo of the president's airplane.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And 2. why, if you're going to do it, do you not let the public know well ahead of time?

And that's where this broke down. The planning for this was not very good, to put it mildly.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 2):
Still, the right will have a field day with this. I can hear it already....

I doubt it, because they'd have to come down on the military to do so. This will blow over pretty quickly.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 3):
Besides spending the $$ to fly a 747 and a fighter up to and around NYC for a photo op when with today's technology, the shot could very easily have been photoshopped,

I don't think the Air Force One staff would allow a photoshopped publicity photo.

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 7):
It just proves our point that electing someone with ZERO executive experience was incredibly stupid.

I'd put money on Obama having nothing to do with the planning or approval of this.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
BlueElephant
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:20 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
I work in Washington DC, right downtown next to the White House. Just this month, we had an ACTUAL airspace incursion where an F-16 had to escort the guy out to where he would be arrested. An F-16 over my building with the President in lockdown, and there was no panic. To throw in a little more, you can see the Pentagon from my window, and it was very obvious when the 9/11 attacks hit us.

I agree with you...but there are also a NUMBER of low flying aircraft around here. Think about the approach to DCA...plus the thousands of daily helicopters that fly low and slow all over the city.

I think DC people are more used to it.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And 2. why, if you're going to do it, do you not let the public know well ahead of time?

playing a little Devils Advocate here (just a little):

Dear citizens of New York City,

On April 27, 2009 a LARGE military aircraft belonging to the Presidential Wing of the Air Force will be flying low over Manhattan. We advise you to please keep all your Rocket Propelled Granades, or something of the like, at home.

Thank you.

I agree that the public should have vaguely been notified, but I can understand the confidentiality of the issue.

Disclaimer I'm not suggesting that everyone in NYC has an RPG....but someone may.
 
D L X
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:28 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 26):
I think DC people are more used to it.

And I think the New Yorkers are letting the terrorists win if they're going to be thrown into conniptions every time they see a plane over the city. Honestly, my respect for New Yorkers has dropped a bit because they went into hystrionics about this event. You gotta move on! You gotta live your lives! Londoners were bombed every night for how long during WWII? Let's learn from them. Courage! (That's how you defeat a terrorist.)

But I do ABSOLUTELY agree with you that they should have warned the population. Then they should have done the mission regardless of what Bloomberg thought. The WTC is not such hallowed ground that it is "insensitive" to fly a mission over it.
 
D L X
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:31 pm

Here's my question: this plane was not acting as Air Force One, but that usually doesn't stop people from believing it is Air Force One when they see it.

How many people failed to identify the plane as at least a US Air Force jet flying around the city? Would they have been so disturbed had they known it was from the Presidential Fleet?
 
us330
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:34 pm

As well they should have.

What gets me is why they had to keep this thing confidential--kind of hard to keep a 747 flying up and down the Hudson in broad daylight confidential.

Even if they did not want to reveal where one of their VC-25A's were flying ahead of time, for security related purposes, at the very least they could have notified the public that military aircraft would be conducting an exercise over manhattan and in the new york harbor area between the hours of 9 and 11 am, and that citizens should not be alarmed at the sight of low flying aircraft during that time period.

Bloomberg has every right to be pissed off.
 
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seb146
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:20 pm



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 7):
It just proves our point that electing someone with ZERO executive experience was incredibly stupid. But we did it anyway. And now real people are being hurt by it all over our country.

I was not hurt by this. I did not even know about it until I read it on AOL. It did not hurt me at all. Especially when I saw, in the news story, the photo of AF-1.

What did Obama know? When did he know it? Was it just one of those things that slipped by because he was trying to deal with swine flu and trying not to let the financial sector slip even further down? Could we get some facts here before we crucify him?

Oh, wait.... I forgot. He is a Democrat, so he needs to be removed from office without question....

The fact that people are actually suggesting Palin would have been better because she is governer is laughable at best. She is governing how many people? She has how big of a budget? She has to defend against how many foreign militaries?

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 13):
without ANY warning whatsoever...what the hell were they thinking? Would it have been so hard to notify the mayor?

Actually, the mayor's office was notified. However, that is where the notification ended. From the article, one person knew about the flyover and signed off on it. Bloomberg was never told. Is that Obama's fault, too? Because the mayor's office was notified but the mayor himself was not?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
ukair
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:09 pm

The buck stops with the president he said so himself when he became president, this is an almighty misjudgment and a waste of gas during a recession.
 
D L X
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:17 pm



Quoting Ukair (Reply 31):
and a waste of gas during a recession.

No it isn't. Those pilots have to fly anyway for training and currency purposes. Might as well make a photo op out of it.

Again, the ONLY reason it should bother anyone is that they didn't tell people that it was going to happen.
 
ukair
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:33 pm

Excuse me DLX I am intitled to an opinion just as you are please respect that.
 
Mir
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:40 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
Here's my question: this plane was not acting as Air Force One, but that usually doesn't stop people from believing it is Air Force One when they see it.

How many people failed to identify the plane as at least a US Air Force jet flying around the city?

To be honest, I'm not sure that many people could identify the presidential colors from a distance in the air. It might look like an unmarked 747, the unmarked part of which doesn't exactly improve confidence (for all some people, terrorists might have a fleet of unmarked airplanes sitting around waiting to do something bad).

Quoting Ukair (Reply 31):
The buck stops with the president he said so himself when he became president, this is an almighty misjudgment and a waste of gas during a recession.

The buck stops with him, and it's up to him to take whatever corrective action he deems appropriate. But I think you're making this up to be far more than it really is, particularly with the waste of gas comment. The problem is not that the photo shoot was scheduled (as pointed tonight, the pilots need to stay current somehow), it's that the notification chain broke down badly. That's where the corrective action needs to be, not the decision to fly the photo mission.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
stratosphere
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:49 pm



Quoting Ukair (Reply 33):
Excuse me DLX I am intitled to an opinion just as you are please respect that.

DLX can't stand anyone criticizing ' THE CHOSEN ONE '. fact is the white house knew about it so that means Obama knew about it. He is acting angry like it isn't his fault. It was a stupid move and until you have lived through something like 9/11 don't tell anyone to "get over it" I had friends who were killed in tower 2 on that day and I haven't gotten over it even though I live a thousand miles away.
 
D L X
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:39 pm



Quoting Ukair (Reply 33):
Excuse me DLX I am intitled to an opinion just as you are please respect that.

I'm sorry, but while you are entitled to your opinion, and you are entitled to express your opinion, you are NOT entitled to be free of criticism or rebuttal. That is MY opinion, to which I am entitled.

Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 35):
DLX can't stand anyone criticizing ' THE CHOSEN ONE '.

You should read above also.

Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 35):
fact is the white house knew about it so that means Obama knew about it.

Please show us the source of your "fact."

Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 35):
was a stupid move and until you have lived through something like 9/11 don't tell anyone to "get over it"

What is with this "holier than thou" attitude that you were somehow more harmed than others because you live in NYC or you know someone that did? A lot of us know people that were hurt or killed. I have a friend that was in the subway under WTC when the first tower collapsed above her.
I'm sorry for your loss, and I know that everyone grieves differently. But you can't let a terrorist dictate how you will live your life! (And as offended as you were that you thought someone who didn't go through it was telling people that did to get over it, it is equally offensive to tell someone that they didn't go through it when you have no idea.)

NYC wasn't the only place that was hit. Again, I can see the Pentagon from my office window. My father worked there on 9/11, and went to a lot of funerals. This pissing contest has to stop.
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:01 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
HAHAHAHAHA

Come on dude. Not only are you rehashing arguments that 90% of the country dismissed last year, but you're wrong on the facts anyway due to partisan blinders.

Care to tell me how the authorization of this photo op over NYC demonstrates his strong executive leadership abilities? How he still hasn't filled a single Cabinet level position in the Health and Human Services Dept. during a flu epidemic?

Hell, just give me ANY example of strong executive leadership abilities. Hint: going overseas and making nice gestures is not one of them.
 
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OA260
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:06 pm

I can understand why some might have been worried. I didnt think anything of it but then I just saw the video on TV and those old Boeing jets sure do make a lot of noise.

They should have at least told the Mayor .
 
D L X
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:36 pm



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 37):
Care to tell me how the authorization of this photo op over NYC demonstrates his strong executive leadership abilities?

Naw dude, I was laughing at you because you had the gall to suggest that you weren't being partisan. You were simply being partisan, so in your own words, OWN IT.

Anyway, it's a straw argument. Not every single action an executive does is a demonstration of ability.

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 37):
How he still hasn't filled a single Cabinet level position in the Health and Human Services Dept. during a flu epidemic?

If you've read a newspaper recently, you would know you need to ask the numbnuts in your party that question.  scratchchin 

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 37):
Hell, just give me ANY example of strong executive leadership abilities.

Okay dude, you got me. Getting such a large stimulus package passed bringing real change to people's bottom lines, lowering taxes for 95% of Americans, changing rules allowing people to refinance their homes, initiating diplomacy that had been destroyed by 8 years of cowboy politics, and working to fix the failing automotive industry, all in the first 100 days, during a time of war,... yeah, he hasn't done anything significant. HAHAHAHHAHA

Dude, take a break. You can't keep posting your little chart about the budget and then say he's done nothing significant. It's called hypocrisy. But it sure is funny!
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:57 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 39):
Okay dude, you got me. Getting such a large stimulus package passed bringing real change to people's bottom lines, lowering taxes for 95% of Americans, changing rules allowing people to refinance their homes, initiating diplomacy that had been destroyed by 8 years of cowboy politics, and working to fix the failing automotive industry, all in the first 100 days, during a time of war,... yeah, he hasn't done anything significant. HAHAHAHHAHA

There you go again. That's a nice straw man. Did I ever doubt he's done "significant" things? (your word choice, not mine). No, my question was give me examples of demonstrated executive leadership abilities.

He's done a whole bunch of things and succeeding beyond probably his own imagination...and yet, America is failing right now. Unemployment continues to increase, deficits continue to rise, America's enemies continue to spit in his face (did you hear the Taliban are within an hour of Karachi and Pakistan's nuclear arsenal now - feeling safe yet?).

I'm asking you to put me towards success. I'd be happy to acknowledge it. I just haven't seen much of any.

As an aside, if you think 95 percent of Americans are going to keep their tax cut when all is said and done (would you like me to break out "my little chart" again?), I've got several bridges I'd like to sell you. This is yet another example of the "teabaggers" being well ahead of the public. "The public", (god bless it despite its ignorance!) thinks it's getting a tax cut. But as my little chart shows, the public is not going to be keeping any tax cuts. Likewise, when energy taxes are imposed, the public is going to get some straightforward tax increases.

Additionally, are you really citing his stewardship of GM as one of his successes?
 
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seb146
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:09 pm



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 35):
fact is the white house knew about it so that means Obama knew about it. He is acting angry like it isn't his fault

Since the WH knew about it, Obama knew about it, right? Why, then, is Bloomburg so pissed when his office knew about it? We already know the memo from the WH reached the office of the mayor. Bloomburg should not be upset at all.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Falcon84
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:14 pm



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 35):
DLX can't stand anyone criticizing ' THE CHOSEN ONE

You don't have to put that in CAPS. He was the chosen one-the one chosen by the electorate of the United States to lead this nation. Your sarcasm is noted, but it's misplaced in such a s tatement.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
D L X
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:45 pm



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 40):
There you go again. That's a nice straw man. Did I ever doubt he's done "significant" things? (your word choice, not mine). No, my question was give me examples of demonstrated executive leadership abilities.

Those were examples of demonstrated executive leadership ability. Whether you agree with the policy or not, a less than able leader could not have accomplished any of that.

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 40):
He's done a whole bunch of things and succeeding beyond probably his own imagination...and yet, America is failing right now

"I want this economy fixed by 5pm today!"

Signed,
Republicans

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 40):
I'd be happy to acknowledge it. I just haven't seen much of any.

You need to learn a little bit of patience. This country was destroyed by a series of events spanning 8 years. Any remotely reasonable person would know it's going to take more than 100 days to see that undone.
 
Klaus
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:54 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 43):
"I want this economy fixed by 5pm today!"

Signed,
Republicans

"...and the only allowed tool is a massive tax cut!"
 
SPREE34
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:33 am



Quoting D L X (Reply 1):
I don't have the slightest problem with doing the flyby. Seriously, I think after 7 years, it's time for New Yorkers to stop assuming everything that's not absolutely normal is terrorism.

Very much so.

Quoting Jeremy (Reply 4):
I highly doubt his jet was in the sky over NY without him knowing.

Why would or should he know. The operation of that aircraft is about 10 management levels down from him.

Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
No panic in DC with a real event, and pandemonium in New York with a non-event. Can you explain the difference?

Yeah, NY wants attention and a reason to excuse childish behaviors. People were trampled and injured in stairwells by the mass of lemmings fleeing from a non threat, or a threat they could do nothing about.

Flame away.

Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 17):
I believe it was around 56% of the country that voted for him, not 90.

Not even close. Possibly %56 of those whose votes were counted. We are off subject.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 24):
Actually, it was only 22.7 percent of the country that voted for him, 69,456,897 votes out of a population of 306,307,000 (Wiki numbers).

Yep.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
ltbewr
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:27 am

One has to consider that the decision to blackout info of this now conterversial fly-by may have been to prevent a possible terror attack. If some half-brain terrorist or wanna-be had a portable land-to-air missle (like a Stinger or the like), with a day's warning, they could have found a possible opportunity to try to shoot it down.
Yes, that may be a weak arguement, but one that has to be considered.
 
D L X
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:47 am



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 46):
One has to consider that the decision to blackout info of this now conterversial fly-by may have been to prevent a possible terror attack.

If that's the case, then they didn't need to do the flight.
 
National757
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:50 am

How could they not know where the aircraft was? I could understand if the plane was undergoing scheduled maintenance but this was anything but routine. This is unarguably the highest profile airplane in the world.

Wouldn't you need presidential/WC approval to fly an aircraft that low over NYC in the first place?

I don't have a problem with mistakes.. mistakes happen but quit passing the buck and take responsibility for one's actions. If you believe Louis Caldera was the only one in the White House that knew about this, I have some oceanfront property to sell you in Kansas.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: WH Apologizes For A Real Bone-Headed Move

Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:44 am



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 46):
If some half-brain terrorist or wanna-be had a portable land-to-air missle (like a Stinger or the like), with a day's warning, they could have found a possible opportunity to try to shoot it down.



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 26):
On April 27, 2009 a LARGE military aircraft belonging to the Presidential Wing of the Air Force will be flying low over Manhattan. We advise you to please keep all your Rocket Propelled Granades, or something of the like, at home.

 Yeah sure Re-read post #15 and #24.
Why would this hypothetical terrorist - dying to take down a presidential 747 - bother going to NYC if he can just sit and wait outside whatever airbase (Andrews?) these jets are based at?
Don't you think this USSR-style paranoia and overkill secrecy is slightly counterproductive?

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