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LTU932
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Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:54 am

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americ...uras.president.arrested/index.html

President Manuel Zelaya has been deposed this morning in a military led coup d'etat. It was the result of a long power struggle between him, and other politicians over a referendum that he considered merely a "poll" to check on the willingness of the people for constitutional changes. That same poll was considered invalid by the Honduran Supreme Court (ruling that was supported by the Honduran Congress and the military top brass), but the President remained persistent. Mr Zelaya is currently in exile in Costa Rica and he denies having requested political asylum, stating that he's still the President.

Great. The last thing we need is a coup d'etat in the neighbourhood, especially if this gets Costa Rica (with wannabe-pacifist Oscar Arias as its President) and Hugo Chávez (because of Zelaya being a leftist President and supporter of Chávez) involved. I would have preferred a vote of no-confidence instead.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:40 am

A vote of no confidence would not have happened, as unfortunately the popular vote would have gone for him, a bit like what happened in Venezuela with Chavez.

Manipulating the population of poor countries with hollow promises of deep social reforms is unfortunately relatively easy, if you can find a politician dishonest enough. The mere fact that Hugo Chavez is willing to fight for his buddy Mel should give everybody a clear signal of what is happening there. (Those two countries never had any strong diplomatic ties beforehand)

I don't advocate military power grabs or the use of violence, but in this case no blood has been shed (yet  crossfingers  ), and it so happened that the Supreme court, the congress, the military, and even his own party all agreed that he was acting against the constitution and interests of the country.

The rampant contagion of Chavez' influence in Central and South America has to be stopped. Zelaya, aided by Chavez, was about to make a run for totalitarism and the end of democracy and independant justice in Honduras. I for one am glad that the nation's major institutions are doing whatever they can to stop this from happening, even though the popular vote doesn't see it that way, unfortunately.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:12 am



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 1):
A vote of no confidence would not have happened, as unfortunately the popular vote would have gone for him, a bit like what happened in Venezuela with Chavez.

I can imagine that, but what I proposed was a vote of no-confidence by parliament, not through a popular vote like in the ill-fated recall vote of 2004 in Venezuela. Besides, the problem is also that this will give Chávez the perfect excuse to launch something. Either he starts making this a propaganda campaign against the US or, as is rumoured, he could even intervene militarily himself.

http://www.nacion.com/ln_ee/2009/junio/28/mundo2011146.html (Spanish only)

According to this article, any intervention against Venezuelan embassies could result in war, Chávez says. This comes after allegations were made that the Venezuelan ambassador was captured by Honduran troops, beaten and then released and left on a road near the airport, while the Cuban ambassador and the Foreign Minister of the Zelaya administration were taken to a military airbase.

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 1):
The rampant contagion of Chavez' influence in Central and South America has to be stopped. Zelaya, aided by Chavez, was about to make a run for totalitarism and the end of democracy and independant justice in Honduras.

I agree, anyone who makes a run for totalitarianism has to be stopped, but after what has happened today, it has become a shitstorm that will be difficult to stop, not to mention that this region has enough conflicts already.

First, we have Oscar Arias, who has basically disarmed Costa Rica at the expense of security and thus allowing crime rates to skyrocket in this country. Since he's involved, he will want to negotiate some kind of treaty at all costs, even if it means making a deal with the devil (aka Chávez), all most likely just for the sake of winning another Nobel Peace Prize.

Then, there's Daniel Ortega, former communist dictator of Nicaragua who was elected President a few years ago, after several failed runs. He is an open supporter of Hugo Chávez, and even an ally to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. He also aggravated an ongoing conflict about armed patrols by Costa Rican police forces on the San Juan river (which is part of Nicaragua), despite treaties from the 19th Century that allowed Costa Ricans to patrol that part of the border with armed men. He now tries to stop Costa Rica from taking over the Presidency of the Central American Integration System SICA.

Now we have Manuel Zelaya from Honduras, former President, currently in Costa Rica but about to embark, on a Venezuelan military plane, to a possible political exile in Nicaragua. After being deposed, his country sinks even further into a state of political conflict that may even lead to civil war. Even worse, since Chávez is a very close ally of the man, he has now threatened with military intervention in Honduras, and any other Central American country from where even the slightest allegation of abuse towards Venezuelan diplomats surfaces.

And Hugo Chávez is involved in any case, and there's no way of knowing whether he's just a scaremonger in this case, or if he will be true to his word and send his army up north.

Like I said, had this been handled without military intervention, it could have avoided lots of trouble, because the military tends to sometimes exagerate certain actions, especially in a coup and even if the intent was noble. Now, the whole region has been affected, people are siding with the leftist Zelaya by demanding his re-installation, and Hugo Chávez is now threatening to launch a military intervention Honduras and in the worst case, even start a war in the region; any military action by Chávez could even prompt the US to invervene, and while I would support US intervention in case of a Venezuelan invasion, this is an option that could lead to even more problems, and not necessarily military problems.

A vote of no-confidence by parliament, to remove the President would have been better, for everyone's sake. But now, control over the situation may have been lost.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:36 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
I can imagine that, but what I proposed was a vote of no-confidence by parliament, not through a popular vote like in the ill-fated recall vote of 2004 in Venezuela.

Sorry, what I meant is that a political stick in the wheel by the congress would have been a lot more difficult after sunday since he most likely would have largely been supported by the popular vote.

But I also agree that a military upsrising in the region, especially if Chavez wants to get 'physically' involved (I doubt he would, unless with the help of Nicaragua), is not an ideal scenario right now. It is also unfortunate that a coup will never gain approval from the international community, and you end up with major nations and the UN disapproving along with Chavez (but for different reasons), which will only help him put further pressure on the situation in his favor...
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:38 pm



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 1):
The rampant contagion of Chavez' influence in Central and South America has to be stopped.

That's up to citizens of said countries, exclusively. Voters should take responsibility, however. Venezuelans chose to elect a militar with a coup-d'etat history. I know Venezuelans exiled in Mexico that voted for him, didn't know about his past, and only later did they discover his dictatorial vocation (which was clear, judging from his past). Sorry, but it was their choice, and an uninformed one at that.

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 1):
A vote of no confidence would not have happened, as unfortunately the popular vote would have gone for him

Unfortunately? People have the right to choose, and with that, the possibility of making 'mistakes' (According to whom?) exist. If people are deemed ignorant (Again, by whom?) to the point of being uncapable of making sound decisions, should they be stripped of their voting rights? If so, most if not all elections wouldn't exist.

It'd worrying that some obscure group self appointed as the "Concience of the Nation" decides what is best for the country.
 
mt99
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:48 pm

While i understand where the military are coming from - I do think think that Zelaya should NOT change the rules of the game to benefit him - A Coup is well, kinda of a big deal. You are disturbing the Constitution just as much as the other guy wanted too.

Quoting AM744 (Reply 4):
Unfortunately? People have the right to choose, and with that, the possibility of making 'mistakes' (According to whom?) exist. If people are deemed ignorant (Again, by whom?) to the point of being uncapable of making sound decisions, should they be stripped of their voting rights? If so, most if not all elections wouldn't exist.

It'd worrying that some obscure group self appointed as the "Concience of the Nation" decides what is best for the country.

You are absolutely correct. If I where Honduran i would not want Zelaya as my President either. But to risk falling into the situation you describe is also very undesirable to me.

A very difficult situation indeed.

Both sides should realize that they cant say: "Democracy works only when it benefits me."

[Edited 2009-06-29 14:54:53]
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:35 pm

Let's face it, the situation has turned very dicey, not just for Honduras, but also for the whole region. After years of relative stability in the democracies of Central America, yesterday's coup has not exactly done the region as a whole a favour, even if we do agree that Zelaya has to go because of his dictatorial ambitions.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:15 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 5):
Coup is well, kinda of a big deal. You are disturbing the Constitution just as much as the other guy wanted too.

If the courts, and the Congress agree that the President is abusing his power and has to be removed, is it really a coup? Or just an upholding of the Constitution. Seems the President used a mob to break into a warehouse where the ballots, for a referendum the courts had ruled illegal, in order to hold the referendum himself. Thats a violation of the law and a spit in the face of both the court and the Congress where such power resides. Good ridiance to that President.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:31 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 7):
Thats a violation of the law and a spit in the face of both the court and the Congress where such power resides. Good ridiance to that President.

Don't sing victory just yet. Just remember 2002, when the coup against Chávez was launched. It succeeded, but only to overall fail a day later when Chávez launched a successful counter-coup. Latin American politics can change very drastically and very quickly.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:38 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 8):
Don't sing victory just yet. Just remember 2002, when the coup against Chávez was launched

Was he ever flown out of the country and dropped off?
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:39 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 9):
Was he ever flown out of the country and dropped off?

From what I remember, they were about to fly him out of the country. But my point is that it ain't over until it's over, and as I said before, it has become a shitstorm that will be difficult to stop for each side involved.

BTW, I was reading the local press in Costa Rica and apparently, Obama called the coup "illegal", and says that Manuel Zelaya is legally still the President of Honduras. And on another note, Chávez is already celebrating victory himself, because the whole region has condemned the coup on Zelaya (even though most of those involved, condemned the coup, not necessarily that Zelaya was deposed).

http://www.nacion.com/ln_ee/2009/junio/29/mundo2012164.html
http://www.nacion.com/ln_ee/2009/junio/29/pais2011693.html

Both links are in Spanish only. One thing that strikes my mind is the headline in that link. It would be as if Obama is the one who determines whether a coup d'état is lawful or not, making the United States look almost bad in the process, because then other countries, especially those with a radical stance against the US (e.g. Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, etc.) will start denouncing the US as if they were once again meddling in their affairs.

[Edited 2009-06-29 19:39:45]
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:45 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 10):
as I said before, it has become a shitstorm that will be difficult to stop for each side involved.

I have a feeling by this time next week it will be back page news if that.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 10):
BTW, I was reading the local press in Costa Rica and apparently, Obama called the coup "illegal",

Yes and I don't see how. Both the courts and the Congress were in agreement that what he was doing was illegal. When two branches agree on a legal matter, what makes that illegal?
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:08 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 11):
Yes and I don't see how. Both the courts and the Congress were in agreement that what he was doing was illegal. When two branches agree on a legal matter, what makes that illegal?

You are confusing two separate things. If someone runs over someone and drives away, that is illegal. If i get a gun and shoot the driver. That is illegal too. Two wrongs don't make a right..

I am not an scholar on the Honduran constitution, like you are.. but maybe the act of arresting the President with guns pointing at him is illegal in itself. Ill defer to you in this matter.

BTW, what countries have recognized the new President.

Dont get me wrong, i am glad the sucker is out - but i am not convinced that this was the way to do it.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:50 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 11):
When two branches agree on a legal matter, what makes that illegal?

When the armed forces chimed in instead of the Police(last time I checked, the armed forces of a country are not under the command of the Supreme Court), and instead of having him incarcerated and give him a political trial acording to the laws he supposedly violate, you pretty much kindap him in the middle of the night and send him to some other country and leave it there.

As far as I know, the coup by the military came first, and the Congress and Supreme Court just issued some shady decisions to try and give it some validity.
 
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:53 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 12):
I am not an scholar on the Honduran constitution, like you are.. but maybe the act of arresting the President with guns pointing at him is illegal in itself. Ill defer to you in this matter.

I'm not a scholar on Honduran law, but tell me, if two branches of the government say what you are doing is illegal, exactly how are they to enforce the law when the third branch ignores them?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124623220955866301.html

"That Mr. Zelaya acted as if he were above the law, there is no doubt. While Honduran law allows for a constitutional rewrite, the power to open that door does not lie with the president. A constituent assembly can only be called through a national referendum approved by its Congress.

But Mr. Zelaya declared the vote on his own and had Mr. Chávez ship him the necessary ballots from Venezuela. The Supreme Court ruled his referendum unconstitutional, and it instructed the military not to carry out the logistics of the vote as it normally would do.

The top military commander, Gen. Romeo Vásquez Velásquez, told the president that he would have to comply. Mr. Zelaya promptly fired him. The Supreme Court ordered him reinstated. Mr. Zelaya refused.

Calculating that some critical mass of Hondurans would take his side, the president decided he would run the referendum himself. So on Thursday he led a mob that broke into the military installation where the ballots from Venezuela were being stored and then had his supporters distribute them in defiance of the Supreme Court's order.

The attorney general had already made clear that the referendum was illegal, and he further announced that he would prosecute anyone involved in carrying it out. Yesterday, Mr. Zelaya was arrested by the military and is now in exile in Costa Rica."



If that is truly the way things went down, tell me what was illegal about what was done?
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:09 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 12):
Dont get me wrong, i am glad the sucker is out - but i am not convinced that this was the way to do it.

Here lies the problem. In these kind of countries, there really is no other way to do it. Zelaya was already abusing his powers to enforce illegal decisions.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:38 pm

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 15):

Here lies the problem. In these kind of countries, there really is no other way to do it. Zelaya was already abusing his powers to enforce illegal decisions.

There is no other way to do it because the intuitions are not strong enough to handle this properly. By doing this "coup" the institutions are further weakened. And it is a shame. It really is.

Quoting DXing (Reply 14):

If that is truly the way things went down, tell me what was illegal about what was done?

Completely illegal. I agree with you.

Quoting DXing (Reply 14):
enforce the law

Was the law enforced legally?

Was his Miranda Rights read? (i know it doesn't apply - but i hope you get my point)

What if the Honduran constitution says that the only way to legally kick out a President is to bathe him in goat's milk and have him leave the country by boat? I dont know. Do you? Procedurally was it done legally?

I was just reading in Spanish (sorry) that according to the law was supposed to have a "ante-juicio" before being removed from office. Not sure how to translate into English. "Impeachment" maybe?

[Edited 2009-06-30 06:53:15]
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:45 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 16):
Completely illegal. I agree with you.

Not what I asked.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 16):
Was the law enforced legally?

I don't know. But if you are going to make ridiculous statements the least you could do is take the time to look up supporting evidence for them. You are claiming what was done was illegal, then tell us why it was. What Honduran law is backing that statement up?
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mt99
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:57 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 17):
You are claiming what was done was illegal, then tell us why it was. What Honduran law is backing that statement up?

Well you are the one saying that it WAS legal first (see reply 11).

Reply 10:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 10):
, Obama called the coup "illegal",

To which yolu responded on Reply 11:

Quoting DXing (Reply 11):

Yes and I don't see how.

So - tell us why you think it was a legal? Tell us how you see it - Dont be afraid to qoute from the Honduran Constitution.

Burden of proof is on you.. not me
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:23 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 17):
What Honduran law is backing that statement up?

I'll chime in with some excerpts from the current Honduran Constitution http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html/. Original text and rough translation.

ARTICULO 2.- La soberanía corresponde al pueblo del cual emanan todos los poderes del Estado que se ejercen por representación.
La suplantación de la soberanía popular y la usurpación de los poderes constituidos se tipifican como delitos de traición a la Patria. La responsabilidad en estos casos es imprescriptible y podrá ser deducida de oficio o a petición de cualquier ciudadano.


ARTICLE 2.- Sovereignty belongs to the people from whom all State powers emanate, which are exercised by representation. (Tranlsator note: That is by democratic election).
Popular sovereignty substitution and constituted powers usurpation qualify as treason. Responsibility in these cases never prescribes and can be prosecuted by court appointment or by any citizens' request.

ARTICULO 3.- Nadie debe obediencia a un gobierno usurpador ni a quienes asuman funciones o empleos públicos por la fuerza de las armas o usando medios o procedimientos que quebranten o desconozcan lo que esta Constitución y las leyes establecen. Los actos verificados por tales autoridades son nulos. el pueblo tiene derecho a recurrir a la insurrección en defensa del orden constitucional.

ARTICLE 3.- Nobody is to obey an usurping government nor those who assume office or public employment by force of arms or using means or procedures that break this Constitution and laws established by it. Acts verified by such authorities are void. The people (Translator note: I'm no lawyer. Maybe we could agree that the two branches that ousted Zelaya are representative of the 'people') has the right to insurrect in order to defend the consitutional order.

ARTICULO 45.- Se declara punible todo acto por el cual se prohíba o limite la participación del ciudadano en la vida política del país.

ARTICLE 45.- Every action that limits or forbids citizens' participation in the country's political life is declared punishable.

Regarding Articles 2 and 3, the crux lies in determining whether the current de-facto government is usurping functions or not. Maybe the Honduran Supreme Court should dictate a sentence in which it states that the current government is legal. But somehow, I don't see them doing that. Too much responsibility.

I think we can agree that Article 45 has been undeniably violated.
 
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:31 pm



Quoting AM744 (Reply 19):
Regarding Articles 2 and 3, the crux lies in determining whether the current de-facto government is usurping functions or not

See this is what males it a murky issue. You can claim that both the (ex) President and the (new) President both violated the same Articles.
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dxing
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:17 pm



Quoting AM744 (Reply 19):

Thanks for that. Saved me a lot of time.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 20):
See this is what males it a murky issue. You can claim that both the (ex) President and the (new) President both violated the same Articles.

I don't see how. The new President was appointed by the Congress so how he is violating the law is beyond me. If there was a coup attempt it was by the former President, Mr. Zelaya. He is the one that initiated a referendum attempt that Honduran law clearly states must be originated in the Congress. He is the one that ordered the head of the military to break the law by administering the illegal referendum. He is the one that led a mob to try and break into a military installation to get at the ballots to conduct an illegal referendum. That's at least three times he ordered illegal activities to take place and at least once he did something illegal in fact. He ought to be glad he is in Costa Rica and not sitting in some Honduran jail cell. I hope if he comes back they treat him as the criminal he has turned out to be.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 13):
When the armed forces chimed in instead of the Police

Isn't the Army in many of those countries considered the national police, like the FBI in the United States?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 13):
As far as I know, the coup by the military came first,

Not by the timeline that has been laid out. The military was acting on the courts orders.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:44 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 20):
See this is what males it a murky issue. You can claim that both the (ex) President and the (new) President both violated the same Articles.

I don't think Zelaya can be considered an usurper for he was democratically elected. He was elected to represent the people. So he is clean on that one. Nor does Article 3 apply to him because he didn't grab power by force of arms. It can be argued that the current government did so, though.

From what I gather from the news he did try to violate Article 374 by suggesting a referendum on a reform that would extend the presidential period. But I don't think that grants an ousting.

ARTICULO 374.- No podrán reformarse, en ningún caso, el artículo anterior, el presente artículo, los artículos constitucionales que se refieren a la forma de gobierno, al territorio nacional, al período presidencial, a la prohibición para ser nuevamente Presidente de la República, el ciudadano que lo haya desempeñado bajo cualquier título y el referente a quienes no pueden ser Presidentes de la República por el período subsiguiente.

ARTICLE 374.- ... constitutional articles that refer to ...., national territory, presidential period, ... can't be reformed in any case.

Apparently Zelaya was paving the way to a reform that would eventually violate Art. 374. Even if that was the case, and if the Legislative and Judicial branches were against it (and most of the Honduran people if we are to believe certain versions), they could have declared the referendum to be illegal and write an impeachment procedure into the Constitution (this could have been done, because there is no Executive veto on laws or reforms that have to do with the President's functions or behaviour per Article 218), so Zelaya couldn't extend it's period. My point is, that law appears to have been broken and there were other ways to oust him from power legally. This coup d'etat could have been fueled by a legitimate popular demand OR by an oligarchic group whose interests could have been affected. It's anybody's guess now.

I still think at least Article 45 was violated by the current de facto government.
 
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:11 pm



Quoting AM744 (Reply 22):
My point is, that law appears to have been broken and there were other ways to oust him from power legally.

That is my point as well. And that is what i meant when i said the institutions should be respected above all.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:20 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 21):
Quoting Acheron (Reply 13):
As far as I know, the coup by the military came first,

Not by the timeline that has been laid out. The military was acting on the courts orders.

And it was not a coup. It was a government removing someone trying to break their constitution. Everyone is the same, just got rid of the President. Why is Obama protecting a marxist dictator in the making? Because he feels a kinship to his fellow leftist south of the border.
 
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:21 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 24):
Why is Obama protecting a marxist dictator in the making? Because he feels a kinship to his fellow leftist south of the border.

How countries have recognized the new Honduran government?
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:54 pm

I am very concerned, because a collegue of mine is in Honduras now... Quite a bad time for an internship there...
 
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:15 pm



Quoting AM744 (Reply 22):
So he is clean on that one. Nor does Article 3 apply to him because he didn't grab power by force of arms. It can be argued that the current government did so, though.

By trying to force his way into a military installation to grab ballots in order to administer a referendum the Courts had ruled illegal could it not be said that he was usurping his power over the Congress and the Courts thus necessating his removal?
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AM744
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:31 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 24):
And it was not a coup. It was a government removing someone trying to break their constitution. Everyone is the same, just got rid of the President.

Forced removal of a democratically elected President sounds like a coup to me. Apparently the World thinks so too. Left and right governments alike.

Couldn't he have been arrested and tried in Honduras? His forced exile looks like a rather crude shortcut, even if he violated the Constitution (we could argue that his captors violated the Constitution as well).

One thing is for sure, whoever decided his expulsion, wasn't elected by the Honduran people to take executive decisions, and that sounds a lot like usurpation.
 
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:44 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 27):
By trying to force his way into a military installation to grab ballots in order to administer a referendum the Courts had ruled illegal could it not be said that he was usurping his power over the Congress and the Courts thus necessating his removal?

Probably, but a due legal process was in order. His forced expulsion looks suspicious to most governments.
 
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:46 pm



Quoting AM744 (Reply 28):
Couldn't he have been arrested and tried in Honduras?

He may well get that chance if he decides to return.

Quoting AM744 (Reply 28):
One thing is for sure, whoever decided his expulsion, wasn't elected by the Honduran people to take executive decisions, and that sounds a lot like usurpation.

The court ordered the military to arrest and remove him. The Congress then supported that decision by naming a new temporary chief excutive to serve until elections in November. Seems to me that two branches of government supported the Constitution. I don't know if the court is elected or appointed in Honduras but the Congress most certainly is.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:46 pm

Does anyone have any idea of Zelaya's popular support in Honduras before the coup! I have heard claims that a majority of Hondurans support Zelaya's removal. However, I have no idea how this can be substantiated.

Everyone I work with down there seems to support the coup. However these people represent the business class. So this does not necessarily represent what the majority feels.

One guy down there put it this way "Better 6 months of difficulties with the international community that 50 years of Zelaya". So it doesn't look like anyone is ready to back down.

It seem to me that both sides have acted recklessly in this situation.
 
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:16 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 24):
Why is Obama protecting a marxist dictator in the making? Because he feels a kinship to his fellow leftist south of the border.

Marxist Dictator or not, A coup d'etat is an illegal form of government. I don't think it's in Obama's interest to support a Coup d'etat ( which that's what you're really saying if you say you're glad the guy it out). If Obama supports this, then you'll see Coup d'etats every 5 minutes as everyone would say they did it for the right reasons.

Also I don't know if you're talking about the Mexican president there but it's far from leftist.


It's been easy for Chavez to have support condemning the Coup d'etat as no one in the region agrees with it. Unfortunately this has become a way for him to look like he's right for once and that everybody agrees with him.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:15 pm



Quoting Victrola (Reply 31):
Does anyone have any idea of Zelaya's popular support in Honduras before the coup! I have heard claims that a majority of Hondurans support Zelaya's removal. However, I have no idea how this can be substantiated.

It is indeed hard to quantify. It is certain that Zelaya was favored by the majority of the Honduran population before the coup, but since the coup the new government and the press has been able to shed light on what was really being planned by Mel. As it turns out, the referendum on whether to extend the presidential terms had 'hidden' conscequences, like the dissolution of the actual congress and profound changes in the government structures that would have favored his 'reign'. Not to mention that light was shed on major inconsistencies relating to use of international aid (read: funds diverted towards political and personal uses). He didn't help his case by dismissing the army chiefs who refused to obey illegal orders and even going against the will not only of the congress and supreme court, but of his own party. It is useful to remind that the army didn't take control of the country, and that the newly appointed interim president is the former president of the congress who happens to be of the same political party as the ousted president (he is also the person who wrote the actual constitution)...

It is all being revealed to the public whose opinion is now starting to change in the light of all the lies and manipulations they were subjected to.

Quoting KLM685 (Reply 32):
I don't think it's in Obama's interest to support a Coup d'etat ( which that's what you're really saying if you say you're glad the guy it out). If Obama supports this, then you'll see Coup d'etats every 5 minutes as everyone would say they did it for the right reasons.

Indeed, and it is why the international community has no choice but to publicly condemn the event. But unofficially, you will se that the US government will do very little to try and reinstate Zelaya to power. Alvaro Uribe, largely favored by the US, also understands the situation in Honduras and preaches the 'no intervention' policy while stating that 'violating the no intervention policy creates enormous difficulties in the concerned country' and he prones the 'respect of the democratic principles and the democratic determination of each nation'.

It is a tricky situation, but no one knows better that the nation of Honduras how to handle its future and political issues. Most countries are very good at hindsight diplomacy, but many also do understand what really happened and do not want to see the contagion of Bolivarianism and totalitarism in the region, especially the US.

I wholeheartedly agree with DXing on this one (wow, now here is something I thought I'd never say...). I applaud the Honduran nation for doing what was necessary to uphold their democracy, republican values and consitution. Some will forever argue that there were other ways. I am personally convinced there weren't. And it is not as if blood was shed or atrocities had been commited.

It is easy to judge what happened, but it would have been equally easy, yet useless, to lament on what would have happened otherwise.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:54 am

http://www.nacion.com/ln_ee/2009/julio/01/mundo2014221.html (Spanish only)

Provisional President Micheletti, and with him the Honduran Congress, have approved a decree to restrict constitutional rights. The right to move freely around the country is suspended, privacy rights have been made almost non-existent (which means no search warrant is required for police searches), people can be detained for more than 24 hours without formal charges, and other stuff. In a nutshell, the provisional government has declared martial law over the whole country.

They continue like this, and it will be the perfect excuse for people such as Chávez to stir more shit in the region than they already have, plus it will make the provisional government look more antidemocratic and illegal in the eyes of leaders such as Obama, the EU, etc., who only care for the democratic process and not necessarily for the man in power. Note that this is not a personal opinion, just a conclusion based on how others reacted to the actual coup, so please don't shoot the messenger.
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dxing
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:29 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 34):
Provisional President Micheletti, and with him the Honduran Congress, have approved a decree to restrict constitutional rights. The right to move freely around the country is suspended, privacy rights have been made almost non-existent (which means no search warrant is required for police searches), people can be detained for more than 24 hours without formal charges, and other stuff. In a nutshell, the provisional government has declared martial law over the whole country.

Considering there has been some rioting in the country how long is this for? Is it just to get things settled down or are they permanent restrictions?
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:18 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 35):
Considering there has been some rioting in the country how long is this for? Is it just to get things settled down or are they permanent restrictions?

The way I understand the whole thing, these restrictions appear to be in place indefinitely. At least there's nothing that suggests a time limit to all of this.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:40 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 36):
The way I understand the whole thing, these restrictions appear to be in place indefinitely. At least there's nothing that suggests a time limit to all of this.

It appears from this story it is more about restoring law and order.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marke...pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0


The Honduran Congress approved a decree to crack down on opposition during a nightly curfew imposed after the coup. The decree allows security forces to hold suspects for more than 24 hours without charge and formalizes the prohibition of the right to free association at night.

Pro-Zelaya protesters clashed with security forces near the presidential palace on Monday and demonstrators applauding the coup that installed interim President Roberto Micheletti took to the streets on Tuesday. Protesters in favor of Zelaya marched again on Wednesday.
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mt99
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:51 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 34):
They continue like this, and it will be the perfect excuse for people such as Chávez to stir more shit in the region than they already have

The new government screwed it up. They have made a hero out of Zelaya. Now they are in a worse situation than they were before.

I guess this is a prime example on how we must "think before we act".
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:30 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 36):
The way I understand the whole thing, these restrictions appear to be in place indefinitely

According to this report, the restrictions are in palce for 72 hours

http://www.infobae.com/contenidos/45...e-las-garant%EDas-constitucionales


And as much as i hate Chavez, and therefore anything that's supported by him is probably doing everything wrong, seeing military stor,inmg into govt' buildings is something that should not happen again. Latin America has had too much of this in the past and we must not allow this to happen again. We already have Chavez acting as the new Castro ...
That said, and being pretty ignorant on the reasons behind thgis coup, if Zelaya did something illegal I guess they could impeach him
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dxing
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:00 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 38):
The new government screwed it up. They have made a hero out of Zelaya.

Disagree, after saying in Cairo that we shouldn't be telling other countries what to do, unless of course it is Israel, we don't say anything when people are being shot on the street in Iran, and do say something when two branches of a duly elected government decide that the third is out of line and peacefully remove him. President Obama and whatever it is you call Chavez are trying to make a hero out of him. If anything the government in Honduras was pretty kind. In the bad old days they would have just drug him out into the street and shot him and some General and the military would have taken over and suspended any other branch of government. In this case they dropped him off in a foreign country without so much as a scratch on him. The two other branches continue to function and the elections scheduled for November are still on track to happen.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 39):
stor,inmg into govt' buildings

? I didn't read about the military storming into anything. I read where Zelaya and his supporters tried to storm a military installation to get at the illegal referendum ballots, that Chavez had printed up for in, but my understanding was he was picked up peacefully at his home.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 39):
That said, and being pretty ignorant on the reasons behind thgis coup, if Zelaya did something illegal I guess they could impeach him

And they will if he is stupid enough to try and return to the country.


I wonder what the rest of the world will say to whomever is freely elected in November if they continue to boycott the current President of Honduras?
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mt99
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:27 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 40):
President Obama and whatever it is you call Chavez are trying to make a hero out of him.

How many countries have come up defending the new government?
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:13 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 41):
How many countries have come up defending the new government?

Does that even matter? The majoirity of the people of Honduras seem to be pleased with what took place. There are a few malcontents on the street, but they are pretty few in number. Again, if Honduras holds free and fair elections in November and elects a new President what will Spain, who has said they will not talk to the interim President do then? What will President Obama do? So far it looks as if the Honduran Congress acted to protect the Constitution. Why anyone has a problem with that is puzzling.
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mt99
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:22 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 42):
So far it looks as if the Honduran Congress acted to protect the Constitution.

Protecting the Constitution by violating it?

There is a constitutional process to oust a President, which was not followed.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:46 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 40):
And they will if he is stupid enough to try and return to the country.

Zelaya will return to the country. He apparently wanted to go back today, but he eventually decided to attend the inauguration of the new Panamanian President Ricardo Martinelli. His return is scheduled for some time this weekend.

Also, the OAS is demanding Zelaya's re-installation. If Honduras doesn't re-install him in 72 hours, then Honduras will be expelled from the OAS.

http://www.nacion.com/ln_ee/2009/julio/02/mundo2014105.html (Spanish only)

This is funny (in a non-comical sense) because the OAS has re-admitted Cuba, a communist dictatorship known for blatant human rights violations towards political opponents of the regime, back into the organisation. If Honduras, a de jure democratic nation is kicked out, then I find it hypcritical that the OAS has re-admitted Cuba, which would be in direct violation of their charta, where the OAS pledges to support democracy and human rights in the Americas.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:56 pm



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 26):
I am very concerned, because a collegue of mine is in Honduras now... Quite a bad time for an internship there...

There is a fairly large European and American ex-pat population in Honduras, mainly retirees. Furthermore, the OAS is unified in its condemnation of the coup.

"The Organization of American States "vehemently" condemned the removal of Mr. Zelaya over the weekend and issued an ultimatum to Honduras's new government: Unless Mr. Zelaya is returned to power within 72 hours, the nation will be suspended from the group. Diplomats said they had rarely seen the hemisphere's leaders unite so solidly behind a common cause.

The new Honduran government was equally resolute, warning that there was no chance Mr. Zelaya would be restored to office and that the nation would defend itself by force."

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/02/wo...cas/02honduras.html?_r=1&ref=world
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dxing
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:33 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 43):
Protecting the Constitution by violating it?
There is a constitutional process to oust a President, which was not followed.

Can you site where they violated it? I remind you of your earlier statement.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 18):
So - tell us why you think it was a legal? Tell us how you see it - Dont be afraid to qoute from the Honduran Constitution.

Burden of proof is on you.. not me

So now the ball is back in your court.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 44):
Also, the OAS is demanding Zelaya's re-installation. If Honduras doesn't re-install him in 72 hours, then Honduras will be expelled from the OAS.

Which is why I asked, if things stand as they are, what will the OAS do in November after a new Presidential election?
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:25 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 46):
So now the ball is back in your court.

Well you chose to ignore the ball when it was on you court. Why do you want me to with it. It is still with you!

Come on.. this is your change to prove ALL the governments on the world wrong. Its you against the world

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 16):
I was just reading in Spanish (sorry) that according to the law was supposed to have a "ante-juicio" before being removed from office. Not sure how to translate into English. "Impeachment" maybe?



Quoting DXing (Reply 46):
Which is why I asked, if things stand as they are, what will the OAS do in November after a new Presidential election?

What if he wins again?

You have to admit, that the ways things have panned out - things will not end as planned.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:31 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 46):
Which is why I asked, if things stand as they are, what will the OAS do in November after a new Presidential election?

Who knows. That is one question that, even with any possible conclusion, I cannot respond with a full conclusion. On the one side, more democratic countries like Mexico, the United States and Costa Rica could call for the re-instatement of Honduras into the OAS, while member nations in the Bolivarian Alliance (aka ALBA) could try to influence the OAS in such a way, that Honduras remains isolated in the region for the coup. There are too many possibilites to try to get to an answer that could be a genuine possibility for further action by the OAS.

Let's also not forget that Cuba, a country that is ruled by a government that stands against everything the OAS claims to fight for, has been re-instated into the OAS. That alone could also be an influencing factor in any future decision on Honduras, because the Organisation of American States has already deviated from one of its principles (which is to supporting and consolidating democracy and human rights) by welcoming Cuba back with open arms.
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RE: Coup D'etat In Honduras - President In Exile

Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:50 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 40):
I didn't read about the military storming into anything. I read where Zelaya and his supporters tried to storm a military installation to get at the illegal referendum ballots, that Chavez had printed up for in, but my understanding was he was picked up peacefully at his home.

From what I read it was anything but peacfully .. but just the fact that they forced him out is scary. They should have arrested him, with due process, and begin impeachment proceedings. Then no one would accuse the country if having a militaty coup.
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