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RE: Moscow Police Break Up Gay Pride Parade

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:16 pm
by TheCol


Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 44):

Come on dude...

Believe me, I'm the last person to take everything the media broadcasts as the truth. Even though your government goes to great lengths to keep certain political and social policies, as well as other questionable activities, under wraps, the cold hard facts get out one way or another. At the end of the day, the definition of democracy seems to have been altered in your part of the world.

Personally, I hope things change for the better. Russia deserves better than the likes of Putin and his cronies.

RE: Moscow Police Break Up Gay Pride Parade

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:33 pm
by Aeroflot777


Quoting ManuCH (Reply 48):

Now, this was about a parade. But how's a homosexual's everyday life in Russia? Are gays allowed to be openly together (as in "sharing an apartment" and admitting openly that they are together), or is it frowned upon, and you're better off hiding it?

It's not so much that's it's frowned upon; it's just a completely different culture. People aren't used to it. That's why parades are NOT the way to go trying to make things better. The USA is a relatively "open" country when it comes to new ideas. Russia is a nation where citizens are very "old-fashioned" - even though the new generation is changing. You can still find a SIGNIFICANT amount of gays in Russia. The numbers are very high. Many choose to keep it secret, much like in the US, and many choose to show it off. But showing it and parading it are too different things. Primarily it's really tough because most of the population including the youngest generation are not very welcoming of the gay lifestyle. You can't blame them... it's a new concept, especially for a country that lived a life totally different from a Western culture. Basically, if I was to give advice.... don't parade, you will not receive a warm welcome. Secondly, there is no reason to parade, Russia is steadfast in it's decisions and people have to act accordingly. As far as apartments... if you find a landlord that is OK with it, why not? Just like someone had mentioned in the previous posts, it all depends on the landlord. The government doesn't need to be involved. There are plenty of same sex couples in Moscow that lead happy lives.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 48):
And I still hope protesters will be allowed to express their opinion out loud without repression someday.

I don't think that Russia will ever be the right environment to do that. Why do we assume that every country has to be as open about it's policies as the neighbor. That is the reason we have various countries in the world. They don't have to be the same. Just because parades of that sort are allowed in San Francisco, doesn't mean they should be allowed in Moscow - two strongly different nations with different views. I am blessed to live in both San Francisco and Moscow, traveling between the two cities constantly. I get to experience two drastically different lifestyles on a month to month basis. Let me tell you... it doesn't get better than that.

Quoting GDB (Reply 49):
Putin changed that state of affairs in Russia didn't he?

Yes he did. For some reason the Western world seems to think it's for the worse, when mostly everyone I have spoken to here in Russia thinks the opposite, including myself. Putin is a very smart, and powerful man. He has transformed our country in a very short time. It's already unbelievable what he has done in this span, considering it's only been 20 years since the collapse of the Soviet regime. Compared to any other leader, I don't think the results achieved could ever be the same. Look at Moscow now and see how much it has altered. In a good way that is. Sure there are hundreds of thousands of other cities that have been neglected, but let's face it... gov't needs to concentrate on Moscow and St. Pete's first before spreading elsewhere.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 50):
Personally, I hope things change for the better. Russia deserves better than the likes of Putin and his cronies.

Better than Putin? Most of us LOVE Putin. Why do we need to get rid of him? And guess what, it's no secret that Medvedev is a puppet. Who cares? We like Putin to be in charge, so let him stay. Life will change even more, and we're ready for it.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 50):
At the end of the day, the definition of democracy seems to have been altered in your part of the world.

It hasn't been altered. Our democracy isn't the same as the USA, that's all. And it doesn't have to be. Why should we have the same gov't. Spain has a Queen, Britain has a Queen, USA has a President, we have Putin. Give him whatever title you want. He is our leader, "together with Medvedev" - and we welcome him. Enough said.

Plainly spoken, you guys haven't undergone the transformation of lives that we have experienced under Putin, so it's hard for you to understand that he really is a great leader that has transformed Russia into the society it is. And to accomplish all that he did in a mere 8 years, is pretty damn unbelievable.

Aeroflot777

RE: Moscow Police Break Up Gay Pride Parade

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:41 pm
by futurepilot16


Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 51):
Russia is a nation where citizens are very "old-fashioned" - even though the new generation is changing. You can still find a SIGNIFICANT amount of gays in Russia.

That's how I feel, don't force it on people. That's exactly what they're doing and then they get mad when their ways aren't accepted.

RE: Moscow Police Break Up Gay Pride Parade

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:52 am
by greasespot


Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 52):
That's how I feel, don't force it on people. That's exactly what they're doing and then they get mad when their ways aren't accepted.

So your straight and you walk down the street holding the hand of your girlfriend....Or some guy walks down the street holding the hands with their boyfriend....

Who do you think will get hassled?....and they are putting it out there exactly the same....

GS

RE: Moscow Police Break Up Gay Pride Parade

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:23 am
by OA412


Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 29):
fighting claims about excessive promiscuity of gays then go out on the street dressed like freaks, having almost an orgy on the street is giving the opposition a welcome ammo and it should be of a no surprise if that ammo is being used.

Good lord, what kind of pride parades are you attending where orgies break out at every turn?

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 29):
The thing I find rather interesting about these "gay pride" parades is that they basically intentionally reiteratate all those stereotypes gays spend the remaining 364 days fighting against.

Like others have said, it's one day out of the year. Besides, if you've actually been to a pride parade you know that they feature a wide cross section of society. You have your drag queens and half naked guys as well as same-sex families with children. For every embrassment to the community **cough** Perez Hilton **cough** there are plenty of gay men and women who have worked and fought hard for a better life for all of us without reinforcing any of those stereotypes.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 30):
Ill steal a line from Rent to describe the courage some of the participants: "They are more men than most you will ever be, and more women than most you will ever get"

 rotfl   rotfl  LOL, I love that line.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 39):
Sorry but I don't get your point. I mean, if gays care about discrimination so much, then why do they feel the need to put it out there SO MUCH, which further aggravates stereotypes of gays. I mean you don't see me going out there with a t-shirt admitting that i'm straight. If your sexuality is gay, I don't see the need to put out it out there by wearing dresses, talking like females (if they're a guy in both cases) and acting in the way they do. As a matter of fact, I don't see the need to announce anyone's sexuality at all. But, this is america, where there is freedom of expression, so they are welcome to do that. But yet when they get discriminated against, they cry about it.

For someone who says he's straight you sure do seem to be overly concerned with how gay men and women live. Unfortunately everything you've listed above is nothing more than the most base stereotypes. As others have advised you, quit while you're ahead.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 46):
I, for one, long for a day when there is no more need for the Human Rights Campaign and Lambda Legal. I long for a day when "gay" is merely viewed as a fact of life and that people like me can simply be allowed to exist and be the way we are. I want to enjoy the same life and rights that any other man does. I want to become a husband and a father and raise kids. I want to make my mark on the world in my own little way and know that when I walk off this mortal coil, I have done something to make my world better. I want to pay my taxes, serve others, and enjoy my life.

Here here Doc. Unfortunately, I'm becoming less and less optimistic that this will be reality in my lifetime.

RE: Moscow Police Break Up Gay Pride Parade

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:53 pm
by fridgmus


Quoting DocLightning (Reply 46):
That's how they were here. They aren't anymore.

Big difference in history, culture & attitudes Doc.

Maybe someday, but most likely not in our lifetimes.

RE: Moscow Police Break Up Gay Pride Parade

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:29 pm
by GDB
Aeroflot, I do totally believe what you state about Putin and his popularity.
For now.
The financial/economic crisis has not left Russia unscathed though.

Putin's popularity is largely based on better economic times of the previous decade, in many of Russia's big cities.
What about the emptying rural parts? What about the average Male mortality, way way below the West, way below what it should be, all things considered, in Russia.
In some parts it's similar to sub Saharan Africa.
Putin can pose for those (unintentionally) hilarious calender photos all he likes, (and how popular are they as gay icon symbols?), we'll see how popular he stays if the economic climate worsens further.

Russia has a very thin skin and is still largely pining for the days of Soviet power, they want the acceptance they feel they are entitled to.
Here's the thing, having repressive policies towards minority groups (dare we mention the extreme racism too?), as well as a free press, is seen by others are part of the deal for this type of greater acceptance.

RE: Moscow Police Break Up Gay Pride Parade

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:38 pm
by Adam T.


Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 39):
As a matter of fact, I don't see the need to announce anyone's sexuality at all.

That's true, no one should have to announce their sexuality but the point is that we live in a society where heterosexuality is the norm. For example, if I am walking my dog in the park and I see a good looking guy that I want to talk to I have to feel him out first and at some point basically allude to the fact that I am gay to see if he is gay or bi - I don't know what to expect when I allude to that fact - he could be gay, or he could be straight who either meets me with a polite or hostile rejection that may even in some cases end in violence, verbal or physical.

A woman can go up to a man and ask him out - granted she might be rejected as well but she doesn't have to sit there and worry about whether he is gay or straight because it is assumed by the majority of society that people are heterosexual.

RE: Moscow Police Break Up Gay Pride Parade

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:48 pm
by diamond
This thread has become a misguided attempt to compare gay rights to racial rights, and to compare a parade that just happened in Moscow to riots that happened in the deep South 40 years ago. It's turning into a contest to see who's been victimized the worst. And there are no winners in such a contest.

It's way off topic, which is a shame - because the topic deserves to be discussed. But to restore it to on-topic status would require the deletion of more than 50% of the above posts.

Thread locked.















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