Send Your "fishy" Emails To The White House

dxing · Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:56 pm

This is just so wrong on so many levels.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to [email protected]

Wonder how long it will be before I get a knock at my door?

dtwclipper · Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:05 pm

Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
Wonder how long it will be before I get a knock at my door?

Do you really believe that that is the purpose of this? Hardly.

dxing · Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:06 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
Do you really believe that that is the purpose of this? Hardly.

Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to [email protected]

You explain it then. The casual conversation part is probably the most worriesome.

MSNDC9 · Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:07 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
Do you really believe that that is the purpose of this? Hardly.

So what is the purpose?

dtwclipper · Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:15 pm

Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 3):
So what is the purpose?

Quoting DXing (Reply 2):
You explain it then.

Clearly people are getting conflicting information about the scheme. Be it from posters here, or unsolicited e-mail. I would suggest that this is a way for the WH staff to be ahead of the curve when twisted facts gain legs.

I doubt they will be knocking on your door.

MSNDC9 · Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:18 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
I doubt they will be knocking on your door.

Probably not over this, but maybe next time it will be report a conservative or a libertarian.

You're nuts if you don't find this to be completely creepy.

[Edited 2009-08-05 16:20:06]

HOMER71 · Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:42 pm

So it's wrong to eavesdrop on terrorists conversations but it's okay to "flag" regular Americans expressing an opposing view?

I'm guessing George Orwell is rolling in his grave...

AGM100 · Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:45 pm

Wow .!!.. Imagine if this was sent from the Bush white house in reference too the surveillance program? Liberal Heads would be blowing off shoulders everywhere .

Amazing .

So what if people are sending out emails about health-care ...even if they are not correct why what does it matter... Are they that scared ? The administration is caving in on itself .. and the Clinton's are waiting in the wings.

dtwclipper · Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:46 pm

Quoting Homer71 (Reply 11):
So it's wrong to eavesdrop on terrorists conversations but it's okay to "flag" regular Americans expressing an opposing view?

So they should just let lies and misinformation go unchallenged?

It has nothing to do with an opposing views, no one has said that (please show me where it does say that), but rather trying to prevent intentional distortions of the the plan.

UAL747 · Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:54 pm

You know, you guys are crying about this when little Johnny Mohammed is sitting halfway across the world hoping he doesn't get his head blown off because of the guy you fantasize about at night who was in office before Obama.

Now there's your blunder......

UAL

HOMER71 · Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:34 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 15):
but rather trying to prevent intentional distortions of the the plan.

And, guess what, they get to decide if the email being sent is intentionally distorting the facts.

Actually, we shouldn't be shocked by this, the DHS are already keeping a close eye on those with right-wing views, this is just the next step..

bigthumbsup

UAL747 · Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:45 am

Guess no one is willing to admit that some kid worried about getting his head blown off in a war started by the person they love is a touch more of a blunder than this email thing......

dxing · Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:53 am

Quoting Ual747 (Reply 20):
Guess no one is willing to admit that some kid worried about getting his head blown off in a war started by the person they love is a touch more of a blunder than this email thing......

That they have nothing to do with each other is more the point. Anyone who is in Iraq or Afghanistan now volunteered knowing full well that if in the Army or the Marines they would most likely end up there. Big difference from someone expressing their opinion and the WH asking others to basically turn them in.

AGM100 · Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:53 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 15):
but rather trying to prevent intentional distortions of the the plan.

No one knows the plan ... Specter said it the other day. We don't have time to read 1000 pages ! So how is someone so convinced it must be done now ? If he does not know whats in the bill.

I have read the bill.... every section is like a legal disclaimer. Every Section can be interpreted however the guy in the shark skin suit wants it to read. It is just sad . Really it is ... And it is not playing well that the President is selling as if it were the end of man kind. Pathetic and transparent.

dtwclipper · Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:01 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 17):
Yet not too many months ago exactly who was promoting the idea that every phone conversation was being listened too?

Not I.

Quoting DXing (Reply 17):
Care to try another explanation?

IMHO, you guys are really seeing something that isn't there. Nothing I can say nor any rebuttal will convince me otherwise, nor any argument from me will sway you. Just my opinion.

L-188 · Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:16 am

Can I send Obama transcripts of his own speaches?

All of them are pocked full of lies, half-truths and paranoia.

fr8mech · Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:20 am

Let's all put on our imagination caps and go, oh, let's say 3 years in the past:

There is a lot of disinformation about the war in Iraq out there, spanning from the search for weapons of mass destruction to the supposed misleading reports leading up to the invasion. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about the war in Iraq or the War on Terror that seems fishy, send it to [email protected]

How do we feel about that now?

This is very disturbing.

IADCA · Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:34 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 15):
Can I send Obama transcripts of his own speaches?

All of them are pocked full of lies, half-truths and paranoia.

Fill in the name of just about any politician for "Obama," and you've got yourself a social movement, my friend.

I see both sides of this thing. I've seen a lot of stuff out there about the health plan that's just plain untrue. There's plenty of entirely valid criticism to be had of this bill without resorting to lies. That said, it's politics, and politics and lies go together. There's nothing wrong with promoting a bill or trying to get the correct facts about it, even resorting to having your supporters gather the bad information so you can produce literature showing its falsity. That's just good politics. What's unusual and unwise about this effort is that it's being run by the White House itself.

I don't think anybody's going to have the FBI knocking on their door because they send comically false emails about a stupid health care bill. That's pretty ridiculous. However, I think the White House should stay out of the grass-roots information-gathering on political topics for the precise reason that the (slightly overboard) criticisms on this thread have brought up: it smacks of Big Brother watching over you. Leave the political-intelligence operations to the parties. The mere fact that it creeps a lot of people out is ample proof of this effort's stupidity. Move the link to the DNC website and it'd be okay with a lot more folks.

YNGguins · Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:38 am

Day by day this Administration is forcing me to hate them more and more. They were okay in the first few months, but they are really pushing me to the limit right now..

dxing · Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:39 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 8):
So they should just let lies and misinformation go unchallenged?

It has nothing to do with an opposing views, no one has said that (please show me where it does say that), but rather trying to prevent intentional distortions of the the plan.

It has everything to do with opposing viewpoints. They don't ask you to send in internet sites or emails that agree with their program. Show you? How about the opening line of the blog.

"Opponents of health insurance reform may find the truth a little inconvenient, but as our second president famously said, "facts are stubborn things."

Scary chain emails and videos are starting to percolate on the internet, breathlessly claiming, for example, to "uncover" the truth about the President’s health insurance reform positions"

Care to try another explanation? When they get the email what else do they get? How about an IP address? And they don't even need a court order to go after you since the information is being provided to them. Talk about fishing. As far as intentional distortions, the President has intentionally distorted this plan from the beginning. He says you get to keep your health care, yet the plan explicitly says that in the long run you won't just as one example.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 14):
IMHO, you guys are really seeing something that isn't there.

It's written in black and white. I think Connan's clip got it right:

http://www.tonightshowwithconanobrie...ealth-care-message-080409/1142023/

[Edited 2009-08-05 17:49:55]

FlyDeltaJets87 · Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:43 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 8):

Quoting Homer71 (Reply 11):
So it's wrong to eavesdrop on terrorists conversations but it's okay to "flag" regular Americans expressing an opposing view?

So they should just let lies and misinformation go unchallenged?

That was not the question. The question was how come this same administration criticized the phone tapping, etc but wants to eavesdrop on emails about the National Healthcare Bill?

7324ever · Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:10 am

If they want the personal opinion on health care go on the street and ask for the opinions, send a letter servery for you to do at home. Don't read our e-mails because some left wing nut job who is concerned about other peoples opinion on health care rat you out to the government. This serves no useful purpose but to nose in on every ones personal bussiness on political opinions. Ask the people not stalk the people

mt99 · Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:12 pm

Quoting 7324ever (Reply 21):
Don't read our e-mails

Quoting 7324ever (Reply 21):
Ask the people not stalk the people

I hope you don't use GMail....

michlis · Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:16 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
I doubt they will be knocking on your door

How can somebody not be distrubed about this?

[Edited 2009-08-06 06:18:01]

mt99 · Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:19 pm

Quoting Michlis (Reply 23):

How can somebody not be distrubed about this?

All the people who did not complain about the last administration's domestic spying operations.

michlis · Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:22 pm

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 24):
All the people who did not complain about the last administration's domestic spying operations.

So where are the people who complained about that program now?

mt99 · Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:24 pm

Quoting Michlis (Reply 25):

So where are the people who complained about that program now?

Hey, if you would have complained then, you would have the moral right to ask that question.

michlis · Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:28 pm

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 26):
Hey, if you would have complained then, you would have the moral right to ask that question.

Please do not imply that I do not have the "moral right" to ask a particular question. Now, I'll ask again:

Quoting Michlis (Reply 25):
So where are the people who complained about that program now?

[Edited 2009-08-06 06:29:39]

[Edited 2009-08-06 06:31:59]

mt99 · Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:34 pm

Quoting Michlis (Reply 27):

Please do not imply that I do not have the "moral right" to ask a particular question. You do not have that right. Now, I'll ask again:

Ok ill play ur little game. Lets assume I am not complaining. I am LOVING this new program. If true, that would make me a hypocrite - right?

Well - since you did not complain about the past program, and you are complaining it about it now - you are also a hypocrite.

So we would both be hypocrties - we would be the same - so what would be the point in answering your question?

Pot calling kettle black...

The worse thing that can happen is that we are both hypocrites.

But you don't see that do you.

[Edited 2009-08-06 06:36:20]

fr8mech · Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:43 pm

I'll play your silly game:

The program used in the Bush administration was designed to root out terrorism. It was used to identify, track and, God willing, hinder terrorist actions here and abroad. That is a function of government; arguably the first function of government: Protect the people.

This program is designed to root out political dissent, in the guise of eliminating misinformation. Do I need to go any further? The Obama administration is trying to stifle political opposition.

futurepilot16 · Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:43 pm

Ok, so you guys all want to say that this is a serious breach of freedom of speech/information and other things right? Remember that they said SEND these e-mails to the white house, which is completely different from hacking people's computer to get these e-mails, which is about the same as George Bush suggested. It is very disturbing for them to be tracing an I.P address and keeping names, but in no way similar to what Bush wanted to do.

michlis · Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:45 pm

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 28):
Ok ill play ur little game. Lets assume I am not complaining. I am LOVING this new program. If true, that would make me a hypocrite - right?

I'm not playing a game and I don't assume anything. Assumption is the mother of all f---ups. Although as I type this I must admit that I made the assumption that we could have rational discussion about this. See what I mean about assumptions.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 28):
Well - since you did not complain about the past program, and you are complaining it about it now - you are also a hypocrite.

You're making an assumption. You no nothing about my thoughts on the past program. Please read what I said about "assumption".

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 28):
So we would both be hypocrties - we would be the same - so what would be the point in answering your question?

To make people think about their ideoliges and how they affect their behavior.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 28):
The worse thing that can happen is that we are both hypocrites.

No, the worse that could happen is that we let our ideologies rule us and let critical thinking go by the wayside.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 28):
But you don't see that do you.

I see very clearly thank you.

slider · Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:48 pm

Kristallnacht isn't far behind, I'm sure.

mt99 · Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:48 pm

Quoting Michlis (Reply 31):
You're making an assumption. You no nothing about my thoughts on the past program. Please read what I said about "assumption".

So tell us about how you felt about them? Tell us how terrible they were, and how they should have been illegal. We are all ears..

michlis · Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:58 pm

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 33):
So tell us about how you felt about them?

I need not explain myself to someone whose mind is already made up.

Quote:
Tell us how terrible they were, and how they should have been illegal.

I do not have all the details of the program and I am not familar with national security laws. I prefer not comment on it because I just don't know. I don't make judgments based on what the media says.[/quote]

Quote:
We are all ears..

No you're not. You ignored the bulk of my post to cherry pick one of my comments to find a new point of attack. Some other portions of my post that you probably ignored:

Quoting Michlis (Reply 31):
Quoting Mt99 (Reply 28):
So we would both be hypocrties - we would be the same - so what would be the point in answering your question?

To make people think about their ideoliges and how they affect their behavior.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 28):
The worse thing that can happen is that we are both hypocrites.

No, the worse that could happen is that we let our ideologies rule us and let critical thinking go by the wayside.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 28):
But you don't see that do you.

I see very clearly thank you.

At this point you're being ruled by your ideologies and any critical thought has been thrown out the window so I can safely presume that you are not all ears but rather all mouth. Good day sir.

[Edited 2009-08-06 07:07:47]

mt99 · Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:21 pm

Quoting Michlis (Reply 34):

I need not explain myself to someone whose mind is already made up.

Yet you just did..

Quoting Michlis (Reply 34):
I do not have all the details of the program and I am not familiar with national security laws. I prefer not comment on it because I just don't know. I don't make judgments based on what the media says.

[/quote]

So for the last administration you are willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but not for this one. You are the one who is "being ruled by your ideologies and any critical thought has been thrown out the window"..

Quoting Michlis (Reply 34):
I can safely presume that you are not all ears but rather all mouth.

Didn't you say that you did not like to assume?

Quoting Michlis (Reply 34):
Good day sir.

Please don't call me Sir - its embarassing. I am younger than you. - In any case - Later Dude!

[Edited 2009-08-06 07:21:45]

JBirdAV8r · Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:25 pm

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 30):
Remember that they said SEND these e-mails to the white house, which is completely different from hacking people's computer to get these e-mails, which is about the same as George Bush suggested. It is very disturbing for them to be tracing an I.P address and keeping names, but in no way similar to what Bush wanted to do.

Sometimes I think you talk just to hear your head rattle. Source?

michlis · Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:40 pm

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 35):
Yet you just did..

Did I?

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 35):
So for the last administration you are willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but not for this one. You are the one who is "being ruled by your ideologies and any critical thought has been thrown out the window"..

I never said that I gave it the benefit of the doubt. I said:

Quote:
I do not have all the details of the program and I am not familar with national security laws. I prefer not comment on it because I just don't know. I don't make judgments based on what the media says.

Things like this make my teeth itch but I still need to know the details.

You on the other hand seem to imply that there was everything wrong with the program from the previous adminstration and that there is nothing wrong with this email program. Care to explain your judgment? You'll probably throw this is my face:

Quote:
Quoting Michlis (Reply 34):

I need not explain myself to someone whose mind is already made up.

That's fine but it would hardly be an original comeback.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 35):
Didn't you say that you did not like to assume?

There's a difference between an assumption and a presumption but it get a little convoluted.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 35):
Please don't call me Sir - its embarassing. I am younger than you. - In any case - Later Dude!

I was just trying to be polite and respectful...a wasted effort in this forum but an effort nonetheless.

RussianJet · Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:10 pm

Nice to see that paranoia still reigns supreme. I hope you people who are 'scared' of a government wanting to keep an eye on what gets said about their proposals (how the hell else should they understand and deal with critics?) maintain 24 hour surveillance on your trash cans - you never know who might want to go through them. Also, make sure you take a different route to work every day - that way you'll know when you're being followed. Oh, and you need to develop a system of code words with your close friends for when your calls are being monitored. Let's face it - the government has nothing better to do than to spy on YOU and has infinite time and resources at its disposal to do so, right?

dxing · Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:30 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 38):
Nice to see that paranoia still reigns supreme.

No paranoia, what they are suggesting is just plain wrong. There is a huge difference between trying to apprehend terrorists before they can carry out their destructive plots and asking to help quash political dissent to political program that has not been adequately explained.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 38):
Let's face it - the government has nothing better to do than to spy on YOU and has infinite time and resources at its disposal to do so, right?

The beauty of what they are asking for is that the government doesn't have to spy on anyone or devote many resources to the effort since they are asking for John Q. Public to turn their fellow citizens in on nothing more than dissent.

The White House claims that scare tactics are being used by opponents of health care reform, what do they call using fear of the government coming after you if you publicly dissent with them. Remember that during the campaign the Obama campaign threatened to sue media outlets if they thought that in any way they were smearing/slandering their candidate.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 24):
Quoting Michlis (Reply 23):

How can somebody not be distrubed about this?

All the people who did not complain about the last administration's domestic spying operations.

As stated in an earlier post, this is completely different than that. Imagine if President Bush had asked ordinary Americans to send in suspicious emails and peoples names who are having suspicious casual conversations about simple oppostion to that surveillance program to the White House. Liberals would have been blowing gaskets left and right. That is more akin to what is happening in this request.

fr8mech · Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:44 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 38):
Nice to see that paranoia still reigns supreme. I hope you people who are 'scared' of a government wanting to keep an eye on what gets said about their proposals (how the hell else should they understand and deal with critics?) maintain 24 hour surveillance on your trash cans - you never know who might want to go through them. Also, make sure you take a different route to work every day - that way you'll know when you're being followed. Oh, and you need to develop a system of code words with your close friends for when your calls are being monitored. Let's face it - the government has nothing better to do than to spy on YOU and has infinite time and resources at its disposal to do so, right?

Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Castro, etc. Every hear of them. One of the first things a dictator does is identify his political opponents and act to neutralize them, either politically or physically.

Now, that being said, I don't toss the current administration in with that gang, I just wanted to point out that your statement is in error. Governments that seek control need that information.

Quoting Slider (Reply 32):
Kristallnacht isn't far behind, I'm sure.

Not even close, but why does the administration want to know who?

Again, would the left have tolerated this during the Bush administration?

n318ea · Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:54 pm

Disagree with the Messiah and your emails are being collected. So much for "tolerance" from the left.

RussianJet · Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:58 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 40):
Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Castro, etc. Every hear of them. One of the first things a dictator does is identify his political opponents and act to neutralize them, either politically or physically.

Now, that being said, I don't toss the current administration in with that gang, I just wanted to point out that your statement is in error. Governments that seek control need that information.

Specious reasoning. They did an awful lot of other things too, like eating, walking and breathing. Is everyone who does those things also on the same path? Knowing what your detractors are saying about is something that all political parties in all forms of government seek to do - this is not unique to Obama's government clearly being blown way out of proportion by those who dislike them for other, more general reasons.

dxing · Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:10 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 42):
political parties

Political parties yes and I wouldn't have a problem with the DNC or RNC putting out a request for such things. Neither of them carry the force of law. The White House asking for that information, even if only in a blog, but a blog that has the White House header, smacks of having the power of the government and thus the force of law behind it and that is simply wrong.

MSNDC9 · Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:15 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 19):
"Opponents of health insurance reform may find the truth a little inconvenient, but as our second president famously said, "facts are stubborn things."

I think I'd much rather hear from our first President....

If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter. - George Washington

[Edited 2009-08-06 09:15:49]

RussianJet · Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:27 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 43):
The White House asking for that information, even if only in a blog, but a blog that has the White House header, smacks of having the power of the government and thus the force of law behind it and that is simply wrong.

Can't agree there. The way it is worded, coupled with the fact that it is, as you say, 'only a blog', means that it does not read as though it is in any way a requirement or is compulsory in any sense.

IMissPiedmont · Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:52 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
I would suggest that this is a way for the WH staff to be ahead of the curve when twisted facts gain legs.

I suppose that is true, the White House staff wants to be the only group providing twisted facts.

Yellowstone · Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:41 pm

Let's tone down the paranoia and look at the facts of the case.
- The Obama administration wants to pass health care reform, and as part of that goal they want to convince the American people that this reform plan is a good one.
- Opponents of the plan want to convince the public that the plan is bad. Unfortunately, many arguments put forth by reform opponents contain falsehoods and misleading statements.
- The administration, quite reasonably, wants to respond to these misleading arguments, but before they can do so they need to know what sorts of arguments are circulating.
- Rather than devote staff time to investigating right-wing sites and chain emails, they ask Obama supporters to let them know about misleading arguments they see on the web.
- To facilitate this communication, the administration sets up an email address for this purpose.
- Obama supporters wishing to let the administration know about misleading anti-reform arguments could compose their own emails describing the arguments, but to save time and effort they'll probably just forward the chain email containing the argument.

None of this is Big Brothery, as far as I can tell.

RussianJet · Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:55 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 47):
None of this is Big Brothery, as far as I can tell.

Absolutely spot on. It's not like they're there waiting for you as you get into your car after a hard day at work to drag you down an alley, rough you up a bit and threaten you to support the reform 'or else'.

MSNDC9 · Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:56 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 47):
None of this is Big Brothery, as far as I can tell.

The problem is the statements of supporters contradict what the bill says so:

A - They are incompitent and don't know themselves what's in the Bill.
B - They're lying to the public.

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