America's leading gay magazine has accused Barack Obama of failing to deliver on promises to allow homosexuals to serve openly in the US military.

Since it was introduced, nearly 13,000 people have been discharged, including Alex Nicholson, who was highly prized in his unit for his skills as an Arabic translator.

"They read me my rights and proceeded from there to discharge me," he told Sky News.

"Within two months I went from being a service member in the army to being a veteran."

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wor...ama_Faces_Dilemma_Over_Repeal_Plan

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Comments ?? Is it time to finally end the discrimination?

Obama Faces Dilemma Over Gays In Military

No he doesn't, all he has to do is what he promised. Shouldn't be that difficult since all it takes is an executive order. Cue the "But he's only been in office for....." crowd.

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter): Comments ??

I would certainly welcome a repeal of the policy thus allowing openly gay subjects to serve in the Armed Forces just like anyone else. I think we have proven beyond doubt that gays can be as productive in the workforce as our straight counterparts mainly because...well, sexual orientation has NOTHING to do with job performance! That and the fact that there are no valid arguments against allowing gay members serve their nation if they so desire.

Would be nice to see the US Armed Forces finally welcome the 21st Century!!

I don't see what the dliemma is either.
Just do it. It's 2009. What's the problem?

G

If President Obama were to sign an Executive Order to end DADT and other regulations in the military as to Homosesuals and Lesbians, it would become THE issue for the Republicans to use against him. The Republicans in Congress and the Senate, their supporters including the right wing commentators like Rush would really get nasty with him making it near impossible to pass critical legisgation like health care. There is also the fear that it could mean the Republicans gaining seats in the Congressional from the 2010 elections as well as be gain a majority in the Senate so that makes Democrats sit on their hands on the issue as well. It could also ruin his ability to win re-election in 2012.

Unforuntally, unlike President Truman who had the 'guts' to end by Executive Order in 1947 the racial segeraton of the US Military (and went on to win from behind in polls Pres. Election in 1948), Pres. Obama has a far less of a political backbone because of todays politics and the need to keep the Democratic party in control of Government.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 2): I think we have proven beyond doubt that gays can be as productive in the workforce as our straight counterparts mainly because...well, sexual orientation has NOTHING to do with job performance! That and the fact that there are no valid arguments against allowing gay members serve their nation if they so desire.

Back when the DADT thing was going on, and my grandfather was still living I remember him and my dad discussing it.

My dad knew gays who served with him in Vietnam and they fought just like everyone else. Dad didn't like the gay part too much, but he figured they were Americans like anyone else and could fight for their country like anyone else. As long as they weren't lovin' on him he didn't care what they did. Dad had one gay guy that served under him, but never turned him in because he did his job and was a good guy.

My dad HAD a friend who lied about being gay to avoid being drafted. The guy succeeded and never went in the Army. My dad never spoke to him again because he thought the guy was a wimp who lied his way out of duty.

My grandfather who served in the Pacific in WWII (he was in several years before the war and for several after it) knew a there were gays in his unit. He didn't care if they were there either, he said "as long as they could shoot Japs, I don't care what they did on their own time".

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 2): sexual orientation has NOTHING to do with job performance!

Back when I worked for Enterprise Rent-A-Car there was a REALLY hot woman in the cubicle next to mine. I spent a lot of time looking at her and daydreaming, while I should have been working. If I would have been gay I wouldn't have wasted all that time looking at her.
 

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 4): If President Obama were to sign an Executive Order to end DADT and other regulations in the military as to Homosesuals and Lesbians, it would become THE issue for the Republicans to use against him. The Republicans in Congress and the Senate, their supporters including the right wing commentators like Rush would really get nasty with him making it near impossible to pass critical legisgation like health care.

Well then perhaps he is just keeping it as an ace in the hole in case health insurance (gotta keep up with the changing lingo LTBEWR, "care" drew big negatives in the focus group) reform goes down in flames which August may make a reality. I would say revamping his stimulus bill is far more critical than health insurance reform but then that's just me.

Quoting DXing (Reply 1): No he doesn't, all he has to do is what he promised. Shouldn't be that difficult since all it takes is an executive order.

No it shouldn't - but it is because deep down he has idiotic religious convictions that are getting in the way of what's right. He still won't move on these issues and it's pissing everyone who cares about them off.

Here is the problem, it doesn't have much to do with Obama. There are a lot of people in the military who couldn't see being in the same dorm or shower with a gay person. I used to work at a store with a guy who was openly gay, and often thought about how he was treated by those around him especially being in a place like the navy where they're trapped on a ship for long periods of time.

However, there are those that could care less who is gay and who is not, so once again,this is one of those things that gays are fighting down which really has no purpose. With DADT, you don't have to reveal your sexual orientation because it's not asked for, what sort of satisfaction would a gay person get in revealing their sexuality? The military asks them to keep it secret because sexuality has no place in the military simply because sex between partners whether gay or straight, is openly forbidden, even PDA's (Public displays of affection) are openly forbidden in the military. I know numerous people that are in the military and this is a non-issue for them. They say all they care about is as long as that person does his/her job it's fine by them.

I think it would be more important for Obama to focus on military strategies in the never ending war, rather than focus on something that is a non issue for a lot of people, even gays.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 8): There are a lot of people in the military who couldn't see being in the same dorm or shower with a gay person

Those people are everywhere. I used to be one of them I have a good buddy who I went to high school with and we still hung out in college (he went to a different school less than a 100 miles away). We had lots of fun together over the years. We did a lot of drinking and partying and even went on Springbreak together. He was just one of the guys in my circle of friends and we all thought Mike was great. After college he came out of the closet. Well that was a big lesson for me and all my other friends who said we wouldn't hang out with a gay guy, go drinking with a gay guy, stay in the same hotel room as a gay guy. Well we did all that stuff and didn't know it. We are all still buddies with Mike and we still all hang out.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 8): especially being in a place like the navy where they're trapped on a ship for long periods of time.

There are lots of people in the Navy who never are on ships.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 9): Those people are everywhere. I used to be one of them I have a good buddy who I went to high school with and we still hung out in college (he went to a different school less than a 100 miles away). We had lots of fun together over the years. We did a lot of drinking and partying and even went on Springbreak together. He was just one of the guys in my circle of friends and we all thought Mike was great. After college he came out of the closet. Well that was a big lesson for me and all my other friends who said we wouldn't hang out with a gay guy, go drinking with a gay guy, stay in the same hotel room as a gay guy. Well we did all that stuff and didn't know it. We are all still buddies with Mike and we still all hang out.

SO basically you're saying that any person who couldn't see themselves being in an enclosed space with a gay person for months on end, is gay themselves and denying their own feelings right? Based on the example of your friend.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 9): There are lots of people in the Navy who never are on ships

So where are they then, other than Subamarines and a few select navy seals (who still travel on ships and subs to get where they need to go) everyone else is on a ship, maybe not all the time (like aviators and SEALS) but they are on there a majority of the time.

P.S. Please, no one take my posts as bashing gays and their rights, i'm simply trying to make a point. ( and read the whole post before you feel it's justified to make a comment that has nothing to do with the post as a whole.)

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 10): is gay themselves and denying their own feelings right? Based on the example of your friend.

What!!!!! I am saying that I didn't like gays and neither did a buch of my friends. Then one of our best friends turned out to be gay and we found out that hanging out with gays wasn't a bad thing because we did it all along and didn't know.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 10): So where are they then, other than Subamarines and a few select navy seals (who still travel on ships and subs to get where they need to go) everyone else is on a ship, maybe not all the time (like aviators and SEALS) but they are on there a majority of the time.

I had a student who was a mechanic for Navy C-9s (DC-9) he spent four years in the Navy and never was on a ship. I went to college with a guy who was a truck mechanic in the Navy, he never left the USA. There are plenty of other people in the Navy who don't go on ships, such as hospital staff, and naval air station crews.

The answer to me is pretty simple. Let gays serve in the military, but ONLY under the same conditions and exclusions as women presently do.

For example, women are not allowed to serve on submarines because the space is simply too confined and not designed for multiple sexes.
And reality says that you can't "mix" the sexes because women COULD possibly complain that they were being "ogled" with sexual intent.
Likewise, allowing gays (talking gay men here) on submarines could result in the same situation. Straight men could find themselves being "ogled" by gay men with sexual intent.

ergo..... gays should be treated like "women" in the military, or simply not allowed.

IMHO.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5): If I would have been gay I wouldn't have wasted all that time looking at her.

LOL! The irony would have been had you found out after all that time that she was a lesbian!  

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7): No it shouldn't - but it is because deep down he has idiotic religious convictions that are getting in the way of what's right. He still won't move on these issues and it's pissing everyone who cares about them off.

I think DXing and Aaron are right on the money here...had this issue truly been a priority for him he would have repelled the ban by now.

I have to say, though, as a gay man I didn't have high hopes for Obama. He did make it clear that he was against gay marriage (though not civil partnerships) due to his own religious beliefs; that said, he did make some promises to the gay community which he should keep (fancy that, a politician actually keeping his promise!).

I do want him to take care of the health reform and the economy and Afghanistan but those issues shouldn't be used as excuses.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 8): There are a lot of people in the military who couldn't see being in the same dorm or shower with a gay person.

That may be true but it shouldn't be show stopper to repeal the ban. There are gay folks everywhere, in gyms, beaches, buses, parks, airplanes...in short, in many public places where you have to be in close proximity or in a state of undress. A personal bias against certain individuals does not give anyone the right to exclude them.

Besides, how many stories have you heard of gays harassing straight men at gym showers, college dorms, or the workplace? Probably not that many, right? Trust me, most folks in the military today probably have already been in a shower or other public place with a gay man without ever realizing it. Time to get over this silly argument.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 8): With DADT, you don't have to reveal your sexual orientation because it's not asked for, what sort of satisfaction would a gay person get in revealing their sexuality?

Let me ask you this then: why should it matter whether they keep it private or not? Besides, under DADT there are several cases in which the discharged person did not tell, rather his peers or superiors went around trying to find out the dirt.

But regardless of whether you keep your orientation to yourself or not, to discriminate against a person simply because of their orientation should be plain to see as wrong. Moreover, "straight" personnel don't make their orientation a secret by making jokes at the workplace, commenting on women they see, or by simply having a pic of their spouse at their desk. Why should gays be treated differently then? Again, should be clear to see that it is discrimination.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 10): P.S. Please, no one take my posts as bashing gays and their rights, i'm simply trying to make a point. ( and read the whole post before you feel it's justified to make a comment that has nothing to do with the post as a whole.)

Understood, and thanks for sharing your views. It would be a boring non-av forum without a good old fashioned argument!  

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 13): Let me ask you this then: why should it matter whether they keep it private or not? Besides, under DADT there are several cases in which the discharged person did not tell, rather his peers or superiors went around trying to find out the dirt.

It should matter because as I said, sex is pretty much not welcome in the military, it happens, but it is extremly forbidden because th emilitary is not a place that you go to look for your soulmate, therefore there is no reason for a person to reveal what their sexual orienation is. I think it would be anti-beneficial to gays if DADT was thrown out because a lot of leaders in the military appear to be old fashioned vets who might feel that they wouldn't want a gay person serving in a position of leadership. With DADT, unless the person is absolutely open about it, there is no way the could know.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 13): Besides, how many stories have you heard of gays harassing straight men at gym showers, college dorms, or the workplace? Probably not that many, right? Trust me, most folks in the military today probably have already been in a shower or other public place with a gay man without ever realizing it. Time to get over this silly argument.

I wasn't going there, I didn't mean that gays harass straight men in the shower. I'm just saying that it would be extremly uncomfortable for a lot of people knowing that a gay guy was in the same shower or dorm with you. It's not even like knowing there is a female there. It's just that fact that knowing there is a gay guy there.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 13): There are gay folks everywhere, in gyms, beaches, buses, parks, airplanes...in short, in many public places where you have to be in close proximity or in a state of undress

I know there are gay guys at my gym. I have overheard them talking about gay stuff before. The only time there ever was a problem was when two men were engaged in sex acts in the locker room. They were thrown out of the gym and asked never to return. The same thing would have happened if it was a man and a woman. Open displays of affection are against the rules of the gym.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7): but it is because deep down he has idiotic religious convictions

I think it is less religious and more political expediency. When it comes round to re-election time, and he needs a few points in the polls, he will sign the excutive order. He is simply holding that card in reserve. I don't think he is any more religious than my toenail clippings.

Quoting Photopilot (Reply 12): The answer to me is pretty simple. Let gays serve in the military, but ONLY under the same conditions and exclusions as women presently do.

That sounds like a very practical solution, but I think it would only delay discrimination and segrigation claims. I can almost see the "Seperate but Equal" protest signs now.

The solution, as I see it, is a policy of Don't Ask, Don't Care, So Long As It Does Not Affect Job Performance. Or DADCSLAIDNAJP. It is a fine line to walk, but in the end, we only harm ourselves if we allow the military's primary missions to be comprimised by social pressures. As someone once told me, the primary purpose of any military is to kill people and break thier stuff. All else is secondary.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 8): With DADT, you don't have to reveal your sexual orientation because it's not asked for, what sort of satisfaction would a gay person get in revealing their sexuality? The military asks them to keep it secret because sexuality has no place in the military simply because sex between partners whether gay or straight, is openly forbidden, even PDA's (Public displays of affection) are openly forbidden in the military.

Just because your sexuality isn't asked for doesn't mean it's a non-issue. There are hard working gays and lesbians serving in our military who can't disclose their sexuality over the fear of losing their job. They have to lie daily in order to receive a pay check, because our current policy states any out service members must be discharged. Imagine living at least 4 years of your life lying about or not discussing your sexuality. I'm sure it would wear you down after a while, and I feel that is what happens with a lot of gays and lesbians in our military. They either leave after completing their contract, or they come out and get discharged. Our military is losing a lot of talent over this current policy.

Also, are you saying straight sex is forbidden in the military? I know adultery was forbidden when I was in, but sex between two consenting heterosexuals wasn't. And if it is, the military doesn't really enforce that policy  

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 16): the primary purpose of any military is to kill people and break thier stuff. All else is secondary.

That is true....

Quoting DXing (Reply 1): No he doesn't, all he has to do is what he promised. Shouldn't be that difficult since all it takes is an executive order. Cue the "But he's only been in office for....." crowd.

For once I agree with DXing. OMG.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7): No it shouldn't - but it is because deep down he has idiotic religious convictions that are getting in the way of what's right. He still won't move on these issues and it's pissing everyone who cares about them off.

No, it's because he believes that "consensus" is right and that you don't simply boss people around, even if you are the President. The problem is that in this case there is a clear Right and Wrong. The Constitution clearly provides Equal Protection Under the Law to all citizens. It does not exclude gays from their status as citizens. Discriminating against gays on the level of a government institution is WRONG. And Obama needs to wake up and realize that sometimes doing the right thing means that you have to step on some toes.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 8): Here is the problem, it doesn't have much to do with Obama. There are a lot of people in the military who couldn't see being in the same dorm or shower with a gay person.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 8): Here is the problem, it doesn't have much to do with Obama. There are a lot of people in the military who couldn't see being in the same dorm or shower with a gay person.

And people used to say that about Jews and Blacks and just about every other minority. Gays shouldn't be punished for these ignorant peoples' beliefs.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 8): However, there are those that could care less who is gay and who is not, so once again,this is one of those things that gays are fighting down which really has no purpose. With DADT, you don't have to reveal your sexual orientation because it's not asked for, what sort of satisfaction would a gay person get in revealing their sexuality?

I will give you a perfect example. I just got a new job. During the interview, my recruiter asked me what I was going to do during my time off before I started my new job. Now, it's true, I could lie or whatever; it was just a friendly question while we were taking a long walk from one place to the next.

I answered that "we" are going on a trip around the Pacific Northwest. I didn't want to tell her that "we" meant my boyfriend and me. But had she asked just a few more friendly, innocent questions.

If the Military wants to place some draconian policy that straight people are also not allowed to discuss their personal lives at all (no discussion of spouses and children) then that would be fair and equitable. It would be idiotic and adversely affect many things, but it would be fair and equitable.

At the current moment, straight members of the Service may discuss their sexuality and personal lives, but gay members may not and that is not fair or equitable.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 14): It should matter because as I said, sex is pretty much not welcome in the military, it happens, but it is extremly forbidden because th emilitary is not a place that you go to look for your soulmate, therefore there is no reason for a person to reveal what their sexual orienation is.

I'm sorry dude, you completely lost me here. "Sex is forbidden in the military"? Which military? Not ours I can assure you!

I think you are discussing something completely different than I am. I am advocating the military to allow gay men and women to serve in the military, regardless of how open or not they are, without fear of being discharged if found out. In other words, the exact same way that straight people can sign up and serve. I am not advocating for gays to be allowed to sexually harass their peers, or to engage in public sexual acts which would be illegal for straights as well.

But believe me, as a former officer in the USAF, that there are TONS of people in the military who make their sexual orientation known all the time...they call themselves husbands, wives, boyfriends, girlfriends, fiances, etc. And military leadership have no problems whatsoever if a couple share a kiss or hold hands or hug, even encourage it at events such as promotion parties, Christmas dinners, or Dining Outs.

Moreover, although I agree that you don't join the service to find your "soul-mate" it does happen, and more often than you think. Two of my best friends (both made O-4) met while they were second lieutenants at the same base. And even though I often advocate against relationships at the workplace the military leadership really doesn't care if two captains or two sailors are dating (within the UCMJs of course, so no officer-enlisted affairs).

Trust me, sexual orientation is not an indicator of how well or how badly a person will perform their job in the military, in other words it's irrelevant, and therefore shouldn't be used to preclude a qualified candidate from joining or staying in.

Cheers!

Charles

Quoting Klima (Reply 17): There are hard working gays and lesbians serving in our military who can't disclose their sexuality over the fear of losing their job. They have to lie daily in order to receive a pay check, because our current policy states any out service members must be discharged. Imagine living at least 4 years of your life lying about or not discussing your sexuality

You guys don't seem to get my point. WHY do they need to disclose the fact that they're gay if it is NOT ASKED FOR? If someone (preferably a gay member of a-net) could just please answer that question, I would be satisfied. I don't see how not mentioning to someone near you that you're gay is living a lie. If someone asks you if you're gay and you say no, THEN it's a lie, which most likely will not happen. These people in the military are more focused on getting their job done and getting back home safely to their families rather than worry about who is gay and who isn't! If I was in the military, I wouldn't care, as long as the guy/gal next to me knows what their job is. At the end of the day if i'm wounded, and you help me out of there, the last thing I care about is your sexual orientation.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 21): You guys don't seem to get my point. WHY do they need to disclose the fact that they're gay if it is NOT ASKED FOR?

Because in any workplace, people discuss their personal lives during downtime. And besides, the military HAS been asking. They've been doing witch hunts the whole time, breaking their own rule.

For the record, I do not volunteer my sexuality in my workplace. However, if someone asks, I should not have to lie. I am an Eagle Scout. I was taught not to lie.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22): Because in any workplace, people discuss their personal lives during downtime.

Yes very true . Its inevitable in such a close working environment.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22): For the record, I do not volunteer my sexuality in my workplace. However, if someone asks, I should not have to lie.

I'm exactly the same.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22): Because in any workplace, people discuss their personal lives during downtime. And besides, the military HAS been asking. They've been doing witch hunts the whole time, breaking their own rule.

Discussing your personal life is a personal option, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to discuss their personal sexuality. So once again, there is no proof of how one is living a lie if they are asked not discuss their sexual orientatiion.

Can you give me an example of one of these witch hunts or are you speculating?

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 24): Discussing your personal life is a personal option, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to discuss their personal sexuality.

Well, in the case of 'don't ask, don't tell', you're basically holding a gun to the heads of the gay people NOT to discuss it.

I really don't get what the big deal is anyway. As far as I know, most armies in the rest of the western world allow gays to openly serve these days, so I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be possible in the US.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 14): It should matter because as I said, sex is pretty much not welcome in the military, it happens, but it is extremly forbidden because th emilitary is not a place that you go to look for your soulmate, therefore there is no reason for a person to reveal what their sexual orienation is.

I was watching a documentary on British soldiers the other day - I can't remember which war zone it was located in - and at one point they were in a rest area whose wall had been covered in pictures from Nuts magazine, a British 'lads' mag'. Let's just say the pictures weren't exactly appropriate for your family coffee table. The next segment showed the staff of Nuts magazine going out to the camp and handing out free magazines and calendars full of topless or nearly topless women. This was no secret stash - the soldiers were even happy to show they had this little shrine to female glamour models on national TV. This could well be an exception, but given the fact that most soldiers are young men, that seems unlikely. Even if it was, in other parts of the documentary, soldiers were talking about their girlfriends, wives, and kids back home in Britain, how much they missed them, and about stuff they were going to do as a family when they got back.

It all seems perfectly normal, doesn't it?

Well, it's broadcasting sexuality in a blatant and vivid manner, and it goes on everywhere - it's so common that you don't even think about it (bearing in mind also that straight people don't ever need to tell people they're straight, because it's assumed to be the norm). And yet if a member of the US forces were even to admit to being gay and speak no more of it - far short of what is deemed acceptable for heterosexuals in the military - suddenly the opponents of gays in the military are up in arms about people parading their sexuality in public.

They're not asking for very much. They aren't asking for permission to cover a whole wall of their base with pictures of nearly-naked men (though, in circumstances similar to those described above, why should they not be allowed to do so?!). They're asking for the opportunity to be able to tell the truth without fear of consequences, and get on with their job. The British forces have allowed this to happen and don't seem to have fallen apart; poor support and supplies as well as political mistakes are far more of a menace to the members of our armed forces than someone saying, in a moment of idle chatter, that they went on holiday with their same-sex partner whilst on leave.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22): WHY do they need to disclose the fact that they're gay if it is NOT ASKED FOR? If someone (preferably a gay member of a-net) could just please answer that question, I would be satisfied. I don't see how not mentioning to someone near you that you're gay is living a lie. If someone asks you if you're gay and you say no, THEN it's a lie, which most likely will not happen.

I'm not talking about a full disclosure up front. I'm gay and served in the Air Force. I never had the urge to out myself, because I worked with a bunch of individuals who had other things to worry about. What always frustrated me were the "every day" questions, statements: "Why don't you have a girlfriend?" "I know some girl you might be interested in", etc. If you're a twenty-something male in the military and no one knows if you've ever screwed a chick or not, people are going to wonder what's up. For me, I didn't want to live the next 16 years of my life making up lies about my sexuality, so I left when my contract expired and haven't looked back.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 24): Discussing your personal life is a personal option, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to discuss their personal sexuality. So once again, there is no proof of how one is living a lie if they are asked not discuss their sexual orientatiion.

Let's say I spent the whole weekend with my boyfriend and when I got back to work I was asked, "Hey, what did you do this weekend?" I could respond by saying, "It's none of your business", which would make me look like an asshole. I could say, "I did nothing", which would be a lie. I could also say, "I saw a movie with my boyfriend on Saturday", which would be more truthful and would reveal my sexual orientation in a way without offending someone.

Quoting Klima (Reply 27): "I saw a movie with my boyfriend on Saturday",

Or you could just say that you went to the movies. I would be more interested in knowing if the movie is worth my money and what you thought of it than who you went with.

Quoting Klima (Reply 27): Let's say I spent the whole weekend with my boyfriend and when I got back to work I was asked, "Hey, what did you do this weekend?"

That could easily be avoided just by simply saying hey I saw transformers, it was really great. There is no reason, unless you need to, to add a comment like "shia labeuf is hot" or something like that (if you're a guy). Or I went with my boyfriend (again if you're a guy). Those things can be easily avoidable. And if you feel the need to add a comment like I went with my boyfriend, it's obvious that you want to put your sexual orientation out there when no one really cares.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 25): most armies in the rest of the western world allow gays to openly serve these days,

I think I heard somewhere that only the United States and Turkey are the only two NATO members who do not allow gays to serve openly. I have heard that even Isreal does. I don't understand why it is such a big deal, anyway. There are gays serving and fighting for freedom and democracy all over the world in the name of the United States. Showering next to other military personel. Firing weapons next to heterosexual personel. Eating, sleeping, driving, chilling. Gays and straights together. Right now. Right this second. In Afganistan. In Iraq. In Germany. In the United States. The only difference is the gays are not allowed to disclose what they do on their own time, if it involved any kind of relations with others of their own gender. Just get rid of "don't ask, don't tell" so everything is equal. That is the one thing that is not equal. Or, start a policy of NO ONE at all can discuss ANY sexuality PERIOD!!! Otherwise, they are discharged.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 29): That could easily be avoided just by simply saying hey I saw transformers, it was really great. There is no reason, unless you need to, to add a comment like "shia labeuf is hot" or something like that (if you're a guy). Or I went with my boyfriend (again if you're a guy). Those things can be easily avoidable. And if you feel the need to add a comment like I went with my boyfriend, it's obvious that you want to put your sexual orientation out there when no one really cares.

Exactly why should he have to 'avoid' saying too much anyway? There's no logical reason for it anyway.

If a straight guy says 'I to my girlffriend out to the movies' in answer to that question, is he 'trying to put his sexual orientation out there when no-one really cares' or is he simply engaging in normal every day conversation? I go for the latter. So why is it different when the guy is gay and says he went to the movies with his boyfriend? It isn't.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 14): dorm with you

I didn't think I knew any gays when I went to college, but once I got there there were plenty of them. At first it seem odd that there were gays in the dorm, but soon I figuered out there were better things for me to worry about, such as how to maximize my beer money.

During the first day at the freshmen doors I met a couple of guys who lived down the hall. They were roomates because the school assigned them the same room. One guy was over the top gay and the other guy was a skin head. I thought that was sooooo funny. They lived with each other all year and nobody died. They probably learned something from each other.

The next year my friend, Allison's, gay sister moved in with her roommate. The school would not allow two opposite sex people to live together. I always felt that descriminated against straights. Seven month later the two had a fight and broke up. The school wouldn't let them switch dorm rooms that late in the year and they were stuck with each other for a couple more months. After that I thought the school was smart not to let "couples" share dorm rooms.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22): I am an Eagle Scout. I was taught not to lie.

Fantastic. I only have two regrets in my life, one is buying my house (it is close to worthless in Detroit's economy) and not becoming an Eagle Scout. I made Life, but wasn't interested in going the last step, I really regret that today. I applaud anyone who makes Eagle.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 31): If a straight guy says 'I to my girlffriend out to the movies' in answer to that question, is he 'trying to put his sexual orientation out there when no-one really cares' or is he simply engaging in normal every day conversation? I go for the latter. So why is it different when the guy is gay and says he went to the movies with his boyfriend? It isn't.

Sounds the same to me.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 24): Discussing your personal life is a personal option, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to discuss their personal sexuality.

Being a soldier isn't like working at Walmart. You don't come home at the end of the day and don't see people from work. The Military is a way of life, not just a job.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22): . I am an Eagle Scout. I was taught not to lie.

Ouch....you mean your parents didn't teach you not to lie? That is assuming you weren't an orphan!      

I think it's ridiculous that in 2009 this dilemma still exists in the US Armed Services. Gays can serve with no problem in the Canadian Forces and in general in the militaries of civilized countries. And there's still a problem with it?

I would highly recommend this book to anyone who has doubts about it. Scores of homosexuals have served as perfectly good service personnel and the only problem was the people who held prejudice against them. Millions of dollars have been wasted on separating gays from the military.
http://www.amazon.com/Conduct-Unbeco...ys-Lesbians-Military/dp/0312342640

I think Obama should stand against the Republican reactionaries and bring justice. Clinton introduced "Don't Ask, Don't tell". Obama should complete the process and bring the US Armed Services into the 21st century.

Quoting Duke (Reply 34): I think Obama should stand against the Republican reactionaries and bring justice

It isn't just Republicans. There are a lot of democrats that don't like gays, that is especially true in many poor urban and rural areas. Many of the blacks that voted for Obama (and just about every democrat in the last 40 years) don't care too much about gays or green issues. When I taught in a nearly all black school just the thought of somebody being gay was enough for beatings. Now I am at nearly all white school and nobody cares all that much. I have had openly gay kids in my class. In my old school that wouldn't have happened.

Quoting Klima (Reply 27): If you're a twenty-something male in the military and no one knows if you've ever screwed a chick or not, people are going to wonder what's up. For me, I didn't want to live the next 16 years of my life making up lies about my sexuality, so I left when my contract expired and haven't looked back.

Same experience I had...I liked the job, I really did, and serving the country (particularly burying the veterans as a member of the Honor Guard) made me proud to no end. But I chose to leave at the end of my contract when I realized I was in love with my partner. I still serve the country, only in a different capacity.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 29): That could easily be avoided

You are right, it could be avoided, but that's the point we are trying to make, that the straight guys don't have to "avoid" the topic at all. If DADT applied to EVERYONE, regardless of sexual orientation it would be one thing, but when you specifically target one group you discriminate, and that shouldn't be allowed in any country, let alone in one which prides itself as being the "land of the free".

Quoting DXing (Reply 33): Ouch....you mean your parents didn't teach you not to lie? That is assuming you weren't an orphan!

Ouch! But lets be fair though, my dad DID teach me to lie...well, sort of. He just told me to tell my mom that he was "fixing" the lady's car!   

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 35): It isn't just Republicans. There are a lot of democrats that don't like gays, that is especially true in many poor urban and rural areas. Many of the blacks that voted for Obama (and just about every democrat in the last 40 years) don't care too much about gays or green issues. When I taught in a nearly all black school just the thought of somebody being gay was enough for beatings. Now I am at nearly all white school and nobody cares all that much. I have had openly gay kids in my class. In my old school that wouldn't have happened.

Very, very true. Just look at how staunchly blacks vote against gay rights issues like prop 8 and other referendums.

If all it takes is an executive order, then why doesn't he repeal DADT? Does he have any generals pressing him to keep the current policy or something?

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter): Is it time to finally end the discrimination?

Absolutely. And Obama can only hide behind the "we have other stuff to do" banner for so long.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 29): That could easily be avoided just by simply saying hey I saw transformers, it was really great.

In other words, you think that people should have to lie about themselves. Fantastic.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 29): And if you feel the need to add a comment like I went with my boyfriend, it's obvious that you want to put your sexual orientation out there when no one really cares.

And if I were to say "I went to a movie with my girlfriend", it would be obvious that I just threw in the "with my girlfriend" part just to show my sexual orientation, right?  

-Mir

Quoting Mir (Reply 39): In other words, you think that people should have to lie about themselves. Fantastic.

You obviously just joined the discussion without knowing all the facts.

Quoting Photopilot (Reply 12): gays should be treated like "women" in the military, or simply not allowed.

Bathrooms for "Women", "Men", "Gay Men", "Gay Women". Imgine the waste of money in signage!! Some think of the Budget!

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 13): I have to say, though, as a gay man I didn't have high hopes for Obama. He did make it clear that he was against gay marriage (though not civil partnerships) due to his own religious beliefs; that said, he did make some promises to the gay community which he should keep (fancy that, a politician actually keeping his promise!)

I had hopes for him. Still do. I do think it a matter of politics why something hasn't done about it yet. I understand that.

But what was the option? McCain/Palin? (doest she have a "gay" friend?)

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 29): comment like "shia labeuf is hot" or something like

See that would be another lie - because he is not  

But if you want to get in his pants.. enjoy!

Gays in tight spaces? How do you feel when you ride an elevator? do you feel like you are going to be jumped?

Well, this gay man thinks gay people should just calm down and realize that DADT is way LOW on the list of things to get accomplished. I don't see it as that important myself. If you're gay and you've entered the military since the 1993 introduction of this, you knew what you were getting into. Yes I know some people have this natural inclination to serve, blah, blah, blah. I suppose those in the military have to choose to remain closeted around other military people. I think that's sad and it shouldn't be, but like I said...know what you sign up for. Me as a proud gay man? I wouldn't do anything that would require me to "hide" myself.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 35): When I taught in a nearly all black school just the thought of somebody being gay was enough for beatings. Now I am at nearly all white school and nobody cares all that much. I have had openly gay kids in my class. In my old school that wouldn't have happened.

Guess what? There were gay black kids in that class too, even if they were closeted. Just like the military eh?

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 14): I'm just saying that it would be extremly uncomfortable for a lot of people knowing that a gay guy was in the same shower or dorm with you.

Those people should already be uncomfortable, then, because the odds are that there already is a gay guy or two in the same shower or dorm with them.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 21): You guys don't seem to get my point. WHY do they need to disclose the fact that they're gay if it is NOT ASKED FOR? If someone (preferably a gay member of a-net) could just please answer that question, I would be satisfied. I

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 24): Discussing your personal life is a personal option, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to discuss their personal sexuality.

What if two people are in a relationship and in the military and one is killed.....Is the gay member not allowed to mourn the loss with their colleagues?

What about unit parties....What id ones partner simply gets sick....

Straight couples can and do talk about his stuff with their colleagues....Gay couples are forbidden from doing so...

GS

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 42): Guess what? There were gay black kids in that class too, even if they were closeted.

I know that. But in one school at that stuff is out in the open and at another it isn't.

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter): "They read me my rights and proceeded from there to discharge me," he told Sky News.

To me, this sounds like he was arrested by the MP's for being gay. WTH?!

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 29): That could easily be avoided just by simply saying hey I saw transformers, it was really great. There is no reason, unless you need to, to add a comment like "shia labeuf is hot" or something like that (if you're a guy). Or I went with my boyfriend (again if you're a guy). Those things can be easily avoidable. And if you feel the need to add a comment like I went with my boyfriend, it's obvious that you want to put your sexual orientation out there when no one really cares.

Have you ever been in a workplace?

No, seriously, have you ever had a job?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 47): No, seriously, have you ever had a job?

Or been in a situation (even something like university) where you live with people who aren't your family? In situations like that, as much as at work, people talk - they have to talk to each other, because otherwise they'll go mad. They talk about their lives and their friends and their relationships and their activities. It's hard and often painful to conceal truths that are fundamental to the way you live your life.

I can only imagine that, in much closer quarters than most of us are likely to experience in our day-to-day lives, it's even harder for the members of the military who, in many cases, spend considerable amounts of time away on deployment.

I don't see why they should be expected to bear the additional burden of trying to conceal who they are - through lies, silence, or otherwise, alongside the pressure of their job - because they might be dismissed just for saying they have a partner of the wrong gender.

[Edited 2009-08-10 09:35:13]

People still arguing each other over sexuality everywhere ... Wow .... Crazy battle!