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bananaboy
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NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:32 am

Heard this on the radio this morning and found it quite interesting.

Apparently a recent TV advert aired in the US has claimed that the NHS is "evil" and has caused quite a backlash over here.

Seems as if some of the contributors to the advert aren't too happy with its content. Cameron looks to be distancing himself from the Tory MEP who appeared in the commercial, and scrambling to state his support for it.

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/healt...icans-brand-nhs-evil--$1318303.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8200817.stm

Mark

[Edited 2009-08-14 02:33:09]
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
offloaded
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:50 am

The NHS per se is a fine idea. The problem in Britain is the administrators, bureaucrats, quangos, committees and 6 layers of middle management who cost more than doctors and nurses.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
baroque
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:08 am



Quoting Offloaded (Reply 1):
The NHS per se is a fine idea. The problem in Britain is the administrators, bureaucrats, quangos, committees and 6 layers of middle management who cost more than doctors and nurses.

Quite likely true, but then again, having an NHS burdened with those lead weights is a great deal better than not having an NHS at all.

Obviously given your druthers, you would have an NHS not so burdened but if the choice was a burdened NHS or none at all, which would you chose.

We have had snips from those ads over here, and they just make the opponents look like the lunatic fringe. One clip had some idiot declaring that even thinking about a state run health system made you guilty of most of the mass murders of Uncle Joe.

It rather confirms that about 20% of the US, and a 20% with a fair amount of the money and resources, has gone totally mad. Pity about the other 80% who have to put up with them.  worried   wave 
 
IH8BY
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:12 am

At times inefficient, yes. Evil, no. Except for instances where the system fails - and this is in no way limited to public services - the NHS provides care which is more than adequate for the vast majority of people in this country, and at no point will people be denied essential (or other) care because they can not afford it up front or at all. If people want more individual care or more specialised non-essential care they are still at liberty to seek this care elsewhere, at a cost (either for private health insurance or for one-off procedures) which is actually pretty reasonable.

The NHS also brings benefits in terms of its integration with the public health role in a manner that private hospitals simply cannot match. As well as on-access health care, the NHS reaches out with healthy eating, smoking cessation, sexual health, child wellbeing and proactive mental health programmes as proactive measures to try and prevent avoidable health problems later becoming a drain on the service.

It's certainly not without its faults, but for the vast majority of people it works.

Quoting Offloaded (Reply 1):
The problem in Britain is the administrators, bureaucrats, quangos, committees and 6 layers of middle management who cost more than doctors and nurses.

To a certain extent, yes. But at the same time as people complain about the bureaucracy, they demand greater accountability, more information, more choice, and better quality control. Unless we wish to shove this workload directly on to the doctors and nurses, a lot of the people behind the scenes are required to deliver these services to NHS users.

One of the problems with the bureaucracy that I believe requires fixing - and this is a problem that would only be exacerbated by privatising the NHS - is that working together with other authorities is far from perfect. In issues such as care for people recently discharged from hospital, for example, there will be people working in the same office doing exactly the same work, one entering the patient's referral details into the NHS database, and the other entering the same information into the local authority's social services database. They may even work on different sides of the office and never speak to each other. Streamlining such a service would seem to make sense, but there still seems to be a certain reluctance. Take another scenario: a community health worker works on a joint project between the NHS and the local authority to provide drop-in services for parents with young children, but can't access NHS databases when working at the local authority premises, and can't access local authority databases when working at the NHS premises. The foundations are there for greater efficiency at the paperwork level, but for some reason the walls aren't being broken down quickly enough.
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Dano1977
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:40 am

I find the whole thing amazing.

The people that commissioned this report, wouldnt they get the standard American government healthcare cover?

If true, its nice to see there alright, when there are people out there who cant even afford the basic insurance and not covered by medicare.

For the record, my grandmother who was in her 70s, got treatment for a brain tumour. So i dont know where they got that information.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
oly720man
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:59 pm

Well, of course, it's much better to have a system that's run by private profit making companies, costs too much, potentially leaves you with a lifetime of debt, won't pay for your treatment if it's an existing condition or you didn't disclose other conditions......

Incidentally....

http://www.branson-pickle.com/involvement-of-the-american-government/

The Forbes 1,000 rates private healthcare provision as the most profitable industry sector with an average gross profit margin of 59% and a market worth of $1Trillion in the USA and $72 Billion in Australia

I wonder why there's such a fuss.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
SpeedBirdA380
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:36 pm

Doe's anyone have a link to watch the actual advert?

I have searched everywhere but can't find it.
 
baroque
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:41 pm



Quoting Oly720man (Reply 5):
I wonder why there's such a fuss.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl  The ability of a proportion of the US electorate to be scared is itself a bit scary. We see plenty of a.net members here who will have been angered rather than scared, but presumably the folk making the ads know their target even if the text behind it is idiotic. Goebbels lives it seems!
 
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OA260
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:42 pm



Quoting BananaBoY (Thread starter):
Apparently a recent TV advert aired in the US has claimed that the NHS is "evil" and has caused quite a backlash over here.

Yes the NHS is evil. They should have the American system where the poor are just
left to die  Yeah sure  Wink
 
Ken777
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:59 pm

The reason for this type of ad is that, to quote an old phrase, there is a sucker born every minute. People believe that pap.

And there is a huge amount of money involved - especially for the health insurance industry. That is why they are dropping a million dollars a day into fighting reform. There is certainly no effort to look after citizens, not when they are some of the highest paid execs around.
 
oly720man
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:02 pm



Quoting SpeedBirdA380 (Reply 6):
Doe's anyone have a link to watch the actual advert?

Two of the adverts are here just below the menu bar.

http://www.clubforgrowth.org/

Can't find the "evil" one though. These are just "fear the worst" sorts of messages. Have a Kleenex(tm) ready.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
SpeedBirdA380
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:38 pm



Quoting Oly720man (Reply 10):
These are just "fear the worst" sorts of messages. Have a Kleenex(tm) ready.

 Big grin Thanks for the links, it was pretty much the dramatic theatrical pap I was expecting from the world of American politics,no offense.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
The reason for this type of ad is that, to quote an old phrase, there is a sucker born every minute. People believe that pap.

 checkmark 

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
And there is a huge amount of money involved

And at the end of the day thats what it usually boils down to - as always. I highly doubt the people who made these "adverts" had the welfare of the enitre American people in mind.

So typical of politics though. Instead of intelligent,well thought out debates and clear factual material, make a scaremongering,manipulated movie/advert to brainwash the general population and the sad thing is it works on a large amount of people....
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:01 pm

I'm presently sitting in a hotel room in LA, and the media coverage of the health debate, and the adverts are an absoloute eye opener. The best of all has to be the one that says that under the reforms your granny would be euthanized if she was a burden to society. This is the level of fantasy to which the supporters of the present bloated system will go to preserve the status quo.

My wife has a number of US relatives, and thus we have heard first hand experiences of how it works.
In the past, if you were working, your employer covered both you, and your family, though increasingly newly hired people don't get as good benefits, as the costs have become so high.
If you lose your job, you are definitely at the mercy of the system.
We have been told of tests being repeated, seemingly in an attempt to bump up the bill, and a major effort to provide treatment for trivial complaints.
One TV news item was about counselling for 3 year olds, all paid for from health insurance of course.
7 year olds "in therapy" and on a cocktail of pills, corrective helmets for skull deformities in babies, which we were assured by a Uk midwife, were a totally normal part of the birth process, and would right themsleves without any corrective action at all.

The whole medical field in the US has reached a level that makes the beauracracy of the NHS look trivial, it is no wonder that they are fighting hard to preserve it.
 
Starbuk7
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:34 pm

So, has anyone here actually read the health-care bill that is in congress. A lot of this stuff is actually printed in it.

The Bill:

http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

The layman's terms:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=903496
 
bananaboy
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:36 pm

Unfortunately, Andy Burnham has called Daniel Hannan "unpatriotic".. not helpful at all in bringing about a meaningful debate.  sarcastic 

There seems to be growing anger from some over the comments, and increasing blog activity.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8198084.stm

Some views from residents of Hagerstown, Maryland.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/8200844.stm


Mark
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
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Dano1977
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:45 pm

Quick Question.


If i was a US Citizen, i can not afford medical insurance and i dont reach the criteria for medicare.

But i have delevolped cancer, its either pay for the treatment yourself or dont and die?
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
Ken777
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:05 pm



Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 15):
If i was a US Citizen, i can not afford medical insurance and i dont reach the criteria for medicare.

But i have delevolped cancer, its either pay for the treatment yourself or dont and die?

If you were a citizen without health insurance (or a LOT of money) and developed cancer then there are a few things to hope for:

- you are a Vet and qualify for VA Health care, which can be very good.

- you live in a city with a medical school & a related hospital looking for cases that their students/interns/residents can practice on. We're talking about indigent hospitals, but trying to pay your own medical bills (or the ones that your insurance won't pay) can make you an indigent fairly quickly.

- You are close enough to UK citizenship that you can claim it and go there for treatment.

Otherwise you might have a problem. You can find the best hospital in your area - the one that will be more inclined to let you pay per month for the rest of your life. In Australia it used to be called putting the bills on the never-never.
 
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Dano1977
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:59 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):

Thanks for the honest/quick reply.

No offence, but i think i will stick with the UK NHS, Ok, it has it faults, but its the better evil than the US system in terms of Not being able to afford insurance not being eligible for medicare. At least i know in the UK i will be treated wheather i have contributed into the system or not.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
RussianJet
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:34 pm

These hysterical adverts are insulting and pathetic. The NHS is not perfect and could certainly be improved, but I am extremely proud that we have it and it has always been there for me and my family. I am GLAD that my taxes help pay for this system.
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TristarAtLCA
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:09 pm

Batten down the hatches ladies and gents.....Sarah Palin has waded into the debate spouting nonsense about 'Death Panels'. She'll be fine until someone asks what newspaper she reads  Big grin

Palin continues to be comic gold even after the election.

BTW, What percentage of the good people of South East England knew that this anonymous politician has been an MEP since 1999 or had ever heard of him?
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
GDB
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:11 pm

This is from the people who cited Stephen Hawking as an example of someone who would have died long ago had they relied on the NHS.
Let's see, Hawking is British and has used the NHS since the onset of his illness (which should have killed him by the end of the 1960's).

I think apart from the deliberate lying to protect a status quo, maybe those who cite it and others who actually believe it are up their own backsides with their 'USA is best' indoctrinated over a lifetime, in a (still functioning) part of their brain have a problem accepting that this perhaps most famous living scientist has to be American, right?

On the news tonight some swivel eyed twat saying how the NHS 'sucks' before citing some almost racist assumptions about us that clearly could only come from someone who has never been abroad.
Another screamed about how no way would he 'pay' for health care for 'them'.
Meaning fellow citizens, not bad for a nation whose right wingers drone on about how 'Christain' they are.

A funny kind of Christianity, with all the 'difficult' and unselfish parts expunged. Replaced by hate filled distortions of other parts.
I'd rather live in a Europe where maybe the churches are less full, but through the various methods of delivery, the nations here ensure health care for all.

It's a moral thing for many of us, myself included.
A system that tries it's hardest to deliver health care regardless of the economic situation of those who need it, can only help the general economic efficiency and well being of the society.
Reagan once said on his 'trickle down' economics, a rising tide lifts all boats , presumably meaning large and small.
Well logically that also appliers to health care.
Or is that another example of this 'smorgasboard' morality?

It is amazing how certain buzz words, though completely untrue, can work on so many.
Joseph Goebbels would have approved and admired.

I bet they don't mention that the UK has a higher average lifespan and lower infant mortality too.
Maybe we should be dismayed that the NHS ranks at 18 out of 191 nations health care, as defined by the World Health Organization. Which presumably accounts for everyone not just the better off. A lot better than where the US in though, at 37.

My own experiences since the onset on Rheumatoid Arthritis in early 2000.
Let's see how this stacks up with the claims of the system I am using ,to what the GOP says.

1) I was diagnosed after three months of illness, American actress Kathleen Turner was after one year, but this illness is different for everyone, so despite her no doubt having access to the best the US can provide, this was not a factor.
But, as soon as it was suspected (after weekly check ups with my GP), I was in a specialist unit the next day, for confirmation and the start of treatment.
No waiting for months, so we'll call that GOP lie no.1

2) Throughout I have been offered multiple options for treatment methods. GOP lie no.2

3) I was told from the start, and since, 'there are no restrictions on the sorts of medication available'. I am kept informed of new developments in medication too. GOP lie no.3

4) I have been offered, if I want it, alternative hospitals, GOP lie no.4

5) Time with my Consultant is not limited, GOP lie no.5

6) The hospital is clean, has modern facilities, looks a bit 1960's stained concrete outside, but not inside, where over the years I have seen several refurbishments. GOP lie no.6

7) I have annual x-rays, bi annual bone density scans, these are appointments but I chose when I give blood tests, which I provide 2 or 3 times between each consultation.
GOP lie no.7

8) After my initial week long stay, which confirmed diagnoses and started medication treatment, there was also a period of extra help such as hydro-pools, exercise and nutrition advice, until my recovery made them, within weeks, in the case of the hydrotherapy, superfluous. GOP lie no.8

9) The range of medications, which includes three separate disease modifying drugs, is provided free since this is a life long condition. GOP lie no.9
Free that is at delivery, I pay my taxes and N.I. of course, and my treatment ensured I was soon back working and paying that tax and N.I. which is what is called a virtuous circle I think.

Now the NHS treats in one way of another, a million people each day, so there will be mistakes and sometimes neglect.
Are they pretending this is totally absent in the US?

By all means have a debate on the future of US health-care, but don't drag other nations systems into it, it only displays dishonesty, arrogance and ultimately, insecurity.

Would we do the NHS the way it is now, from today and not in 1948?
Probably not.
However, the claims being made about the NHS by some in the US now, exactly mirrors what the vested interests in the UK said in 1948 too.
They were wrong, most would be mature enough to subsequently admit this too.
And in the next two decades the health of our nation improved at an unprecedented rate, far faster than medical advances could alone account for.
 
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OA260
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:15 pm



Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 19):
She'll be fine until someone asks what newspaper she reads

She reads lots and varied ones just cant remember them lol...
 
GDB
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:22 pm

I maybe an atheist, but if there is such a thing as an Anti Christ, it's probably either Ronald McDonald or Sarah Palin.
Maybe both.
 
RussianJet
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:25 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 21):
Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 19):
She'll be fine until someone asks what newspaper she reads

She reads lots and varied ones just cant remember them lol...

Can she actually read??

It is shocking how idiots like her will wade into a debate about which they are clearly not qualified to talk. Talk to me about how first class care saved my mum's life after an accident, about how she has received excellent aftercare ever since, about how my sister's broken leg was fixed with no fuss, about how my life was saved when I was three. Yeah, free healthcare sure does suck.  sarcastic 
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
brianw999
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:36 pm

I work for the NHS. Yes, it has its faults but doesn't any massive organisation, including the private medicare system in the U.S. ?

It would be even better if the thousands of "Free Health Care Holidaymakers" from all over the world didn't descend on us every year and use the service that we pay for and they don't !! It seriously pee's me off that if I get sick in a foreign country I have to pay, yet that country's nationals get free care when they visit the UK.
 
racko
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:29 pm

My favorite is Glenn Beck:

Here he is talking about the British goose-stepping:

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200907160036

And here he is having a slightly different opinion of the "best health care system in the world":

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/th...ust-13-2009/glenn-beck-s-operation

Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 24):
It would be even better if the thousands of "Free Health Care Holidaymakers" from all over the world didn't descend on us every year and use the service that we pay for and they don't !! It seriously pee's me off that if I get sick in a foreign country I have to pay, yet that country's nationals get free care when they visit the UK.

Imho it just shows how far the UK has gotten as a society. It's something you should be proud of.
 
IH8BY
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:30 pm



Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 24):
It seriously pee's me off that if I get sick in a foreign country I have to pay, yet that country's nationals get free care when they visit the UK.

Though if you get a European Health Insurance Card, you can access healthcare in other EU countries at the same price (reduced or sometimes free) that citizens of that country can access it. Obviously not a replacement for travel insurance, but still...
Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
 
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OA260
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:43 pm



Quoting IH8BY (Reply 26):
Though if you get a European Health Insurance Card, you can access healthcare in other EU countries at the same price (reduced or sometimes free) that citizens of that country can access it. Obviously not a replacement for travel insurance, but still...

I wouldnt travel anywhere without full travel insurance. Even in Europe the difference between the UK and Bulgaria/Greece / Romania is huge. I wouldnt want to be in a state hospital in the Balkans thats for sure.
 
fruitbat
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:12 pm



Quoting GDB (Reply 20):

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Couldn't agree more, your experiences with the NHS are very similar to my wife's after she suffered a heart attack 2.5 years ago.

Yes, the NHS isn't perfect but i'd rather have it than the American system that seems to treat a persons health as proportional to their wealth......I'm happy to pay NI and taxes to support it.

Quoting Racko (Reply 25):
Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 24):
It would be even better if the thousands of "Free Health Care Holidaymakers" from all over the world didn't descend on us every year and use the service that we pay for and they don't !! It seriously pee's me off that if I get sick in a foreign country I have to pay, yet that country's nationals get free care when they visit the UK.

Imho it just shows how far the UK has gotten as a society. It's something you should be proud of.

But we Brits are brought up to be suspicious of complements, after all we spend so much time complaining about everything  duck 
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
 
PPVRA
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:58 pm



Quoting IH8BY (Reply 3):
As well as on-access health care, the NHS reaches out with healthy eating, smoking cessation, sexual health, child wellbeing and proactive mental health programmes as proactive measures to try and prevent avoidable health problems later becoming a drain on the service.

Those things aren't uncommon in the US. And by that I mean private institutions.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Dano1977
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:29 am



Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 24):

I thought the only free healthcare to foreign nationals on the NHS was if it was emergency treatment only.

Anything long term had to be paid for?

When i went for a scan on wrist, i was asked to bring proof of nationality, despite being born in the same hospital 32 years previous lol.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
AverageUser
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:02 am



Quoting IH8BY (Reply 26):
Though if you get a European Health Insurance Card, you can access healthcare in other EU countries at the same price (reduced or sometimes free) that citizens of that country can access it.

It's the EEA (European Econimic Area) countries and Switzerland, not the EU countries. The current political union has nothing to do with healthcare services.
 
JER757
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RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:23 am



Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 30):
I thought the only free healthcare to foreign nationals on the NHS was if it was emergency treatment only.

As far as I'm aware that is indeed the case. Until recently Jersey in the Channel Islands (which has its own health care system similar to the NHS - free at the point of care etc) had a reciprocal health care agreement with the NHS, in that if a Jersey resident became ill in the UK they would receive treatment as a UK citizen, and if a UK citizen required treatment in Jersey they would get it as any other Jersey citizen. This has since ended, and any Jersey resident travelling to the UK is advised to take out travel insurance.

The NHS (and systems like it) are amazing things at their heart. Free health care to everyone, cradle to grave, no questions asked. As someone involved with medicine, I cannot fathom how doctors in the US can turn down treatment to someone who desperately needs it. Its just morally wrong and goes against pretty much everything I've ever been taught about practising medicine. Two different cultures perhaps, but I know which one I prefer.

Lets not forget that private health insurance is still an option in the UK. Those who don't like the NHS and the service it provides are welcome to take out BUPA health insurance; and yes they will perhaps receive treatment slightly quicker in slightly nicer surroundings, but in all likelihood the outcome will be the same: Your health may improve, decline, or you may die regardless of who treated you.

But lets not forget that BUPA do not:

- Have significant emergency coverage. That's far too expensive. NHS ambulance crews and Hospitals can scrape someone off the road and commence treatment before being transferred to the shiny BUPA hospital.
- Run significant public health campaigns (sexual health, smoking, alcohol etc).
- Train thousands of medical and nursing students (among many other health care professions), through association with universities.
- Nurture professionals throughout their careers. In terms of doctors; BUPA employ consultants. No registrars and juniors. Where would medical training be if the NHS adopted that policy?
- Carry out a huge amount of research; instead they let the NHS do that and then use the results to their own needs.
... and a million other things.


The American health care system represents, for me at least, a massive polarisation of care. On the one hand you have some of the best medicine being practised in the world (Mayo Clinic etc) to those that can afford it. However on the other hand people suffer and die because they can't afford treatment. I read somewhere that 60% of all personal bankruptcies in the US were down to medical bills.

I think its only right to even things out a bit. I wonder how many people putting together these adverts aren't able to afford health insurance. Very few I'm willing to bet.

I think if Obama does pull this off, he has the chance to alleviate an untold amount of suffering. I just hope these lunatics don't get in the way.
Gale force fog... don't you love it?
 
JER757
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:48 am

RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:34 am

A very well written article from eminent UK medical blogger Dr John Crippen puts it far better than I can!

http://nhsblogdoc.blogspot.com/2009/...shitting-on-your-own-doorstep.html
Gale force fog... don't you love it?
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15473
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:56 am

As is said about what most news reporting is - the only news is bad news - applies to health care as well. You are more likely to hear about complaints of delayed operations or tests or serious mistakes rather than those who's lives were saved by the a good health care system. That applies to the UK's NHS as well as our health care policy.
In the USA we have hospitals going out of business or into bankruptcy due to poor insurance co reimbursements, from providing charity care without enough financial support and the costs of dealing with insurance co paperwork. Too many can't the doctors they should, buy the drugs or get the operation/treatments they need as can't afford it or are not qualified by poverty or age for Medicare or Medicade. I don't want to hear anymore of a fundraiser for someone who is sick to pay the bills or people going into personal bankrupty or losing their home due to the costs of health care. WE ALL need a policy that will reasonably assure health care one needs at a reasonable cost, prevents suffering and helps people live to decent age.
 
GDB
Posts: 13945
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:12 am

JER757, good link to that blog, I have thought about my situation and just how much it would cost me if I was in the US and was not a wealthy person.
Given the (two page) prescription I have, that alone would make me shudder. And would I be able to have all the meds I'm on even?

As it is, I'm actually healthy enough, I do get the flare ups from time to time, sometimes annoying sometimes bloody painful, though the latter has become increasingly rare.
This is due to the range of meds, the times spent finding the right combination, the changes, additions and adjustments along the way.
And if I need help, I just pick up the phone and ring the hospital.

No corporate shill ringing me and asking if I'm cured now, or all the time and resource spend trying to wiggle out of giving me treatment.

Look at it another way, the US spends far more as a % of national wealth on health-care than we do, but they have, for many, all those negative outcomes.
From under-insurance, no insurance and while any care system has some rationing, I'd stack our rationing up against theirs anytime.

Imagine if the US, spending as much now on defence, had in fact only half the military capacity, 'bang for the buck' as they actually do.
Because each fighter squadron, army division, naval vessel, was spending time and resource finding ways to tout for deployments, leading to payments, over their 'rivals'.
Since to survive they have to do this.
Wouldn't be acceptable would it?
 
IH8BY
Posts: 784
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:39 pm

RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:30 am

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 31):
It's the EEA (European Econimic Area) countries and Switzerland, not the EU countries. The current political union has nothing to do with healthcare services.

Apparently my mistake! (Though there's really no need to be snappy about it, regardless of your feelings about the EU - it is true that the majority of the countries that participate in it are EU countries, and it is also true that I didn't say it was an EU-run scheme)

[Edited 2009-08-15 02:40:22]
Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:22 am



Quoting GDB (Reply 20):
It is amazing how certain buzz words, though completely untrue, can work on so many.
Joseph Goebbels would have approved and admired.

I obviously agree with the Goebbels analogy, see Reply 7. However, my reference was intended to be made with a certain amount of irony. While it is possible to argue that Goebbels exceeded the efforts of allied propaganda, it is the case that the allies did do their level best to give him a good run for his money.

The status of Goebbels is as much a result of the allies winning as any great abilities on his part. So it should not surprise that all that talent in the US (and the UK) has been waiting its opportunity.

Don't forget the now discredited claim made during the Gulf War that Iraqi soldiers were ripping newborn babies out of incubators and throwing them to the ground
I don't think that was Goebbels!  ashamed 

http://www.world-war-2.info/propaganda/
 
AverageUser
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:17 am



Quoting IH8BY (Reply 36):
Apparently my mistake! (Though there's really no need to be snappy about it, r

I would not say it's your mistake on your personal account alone, people generally are kept in the dark about the fact that there's the political union EU and the commercial union EEA. Some countries were given the choice to opt out of the political one for certain historical reasons.

But on the paid anti-NHS campaign in the U.S. I guess everyone's powerless. The country has for long been run by fear, and the lobbying groups can tap outstanding resources on raising fear by all means, by rhetorics and outright lies.
What could be the positive message that European national heath care systems could both generate and convey succesfully to the U.S.?
 
Charles79
Posts: 1119
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:35 pm

RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:59 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 34):
WE ALL need a policy that will reasonably assure health care one needs at a reasonable cost, prevents suffering and helps people live to decent age.

I wonder is that too much to ask?

I know that the proposed bill does have some shortcomings and room for improvement but what I don't get is why the opposition can't provide any meaningful alternatives.

Thanks for the EU posters in here for their insight into what is really like to have a proper health system. Hopefully my fellow Americans will be able to enjoy one soon!

Cheers!

Charles
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:10 pm



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 39):
Thanks for the EU posters in here for their insight into what is really like to have a proper health system. Hopefully my fellow Americans will be able to enjoy one soon!

And Aus can I add. We have some degree of self interest in this fight as some over here appear to have a (death) wish to follow US examples, believe it or not in health too. Wonder why that could be!!!

Ike warned about the military industrial complex, there was another unholy alliance that he should have warned about. Just thank whatever for the existence of the DocLightnings of this world.
 
olle
Posts: 2693
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:17 pm

In the list below most countries that has something similar to NHS is within the top 25. USA was 37. Interesting is that most European countries pays 8-10% of GDP for a healthcare covering 100% of their populations and USA pays 16% of GDP for less then 100% of their population. Someone here makes a looooot of money in USA and someone does not want to loose it. In most of these countries doctors and other specialists lives a very comfortable life as well.

The World Health Organization's ranking
of the world's health systems.
Source: WHO World Health Report - See also Spreadsheet Details (731kb)

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems was last produced in 2000, and the WHO no longer produces such a ranking table, because of the complexity of the task.

See also: Healthy Life Expectancy By Country
See also: Health Performance Rank By Country
See also: Total Health Expenditure as % of GDP (2000-2005)
See also: Main Country Ranks Page

Rank CountryView this list in alphabetic order View this list in alphabetic order View this list in alphabetic order

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland
51 Dominican Republic
52 Tunisia
53 Jamaica
54 Venezuela
55 Albania
56 Seychelles
57 Paraguay
58 South Korea
59 Senegal
60 Philippines
61 Mexico
62 Slovakia
63 Egypt
64 Kazakhstan
65 Uruguay
66 Hungary
67 Trinidad and Tobago
68 Saint Lucia
69 Belize
70 Turkey
71 Nicaragua
72 Belarus
73 Lithuania
74 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
75 Argentina
76 Sri Lanka
77 Estonia
78 Guatemala
79 Ukraine
80 Solomon Islands
81 Algeria
82 Palau
83 Jordan
84 Mauritius
85 Grenada
86 Antigua and Barbuda
87 Libya
88 Bangladesh
89 Macedonia
90 Bosnia-Herzegovina
91 Lebanon
92 Indonesia
93 Iran
94 Bahamas
95 Panama
96 Fiji
97 Benin
98 Nauru
99 Romania
100 Saint Kitts and Nevis
101 Moldova
102 Bulgaria
103 Iraq
104 Armenia
105 Latvia
106 Yugoslavia
107 Cook Islands
108 Syria
109 Azerbaijan
110 Suriname
111 Ecuador
112 India
113 Cape Verde
114 Georgia
115 El Salvador
116 Tonga
117 Uzbekistan
118 Comoros
119 Samoa
120 Yemen
121 Niue
122 Pakistan
123 Micronesia
124 Bhutan
125 Brazil
126 Bolivia
127 Vanuatu
128 Guyana
129 Peru
130 Russia
131 Honduras
132 Burkina Faso
133 Sao Tome and Principe
134 Sudan
135 Ghana
136 Tuvalu
137 Ivory Coast
138 Haiti
139 Gabon
140 Kenya
141 Marshall Islands
142 Kiribati
143 Burundi
144 China
145 Mongolia
146 Gambia
147 Maldives
148 Papua New Guinea
149 Uganda
150 Nepal
151 Kyrgystan
152 Togo
153 Turkmenistan
154 Tajikistan
155 Zimbabwe
156 Tanzania
157 Djibouti
158 Eritrea
159 Madagascar
160 Vietnam
161 Guinea
162 Mauritania
163 Mali
164 Cameroon
165 Laos
166 Congo
167 North Korea
168 Namibia
169 Botswana
170 Niger
171 Equatorial Guinea
172 Rwanda
173 Afghanistan
174 Cambodia
175 South Africa
176 Guinea-Bissau
177 Swaziland
178 Chad
179 Somalia
180 Ethiopia
181 Angola
182 Zambia
183 Lesotho
184 Mozambique
185 Malawi
186 Liberia
187 Nigeria
188 Democratic Republic of the Congo
189 Central African Republic
190 Myanmar
 
User avatar
757MDE
Posts: 1451
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:45 am

RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:30 pm

Quoting Olle (Reply 41):
22 Colombia

I am surprised to see Colombia in such a "high" place.

Our system is pretty much like the one in the US and there's a lot of underinsured or just not insured people for different reasons (even within my own family). There have been cases of hospitals not accepting people for treatment if they can't pay cash upfront and them dying after running through whichever city in an ambulance searching for a hospital that will take them.

There's also a big amount of people that have needed to go though the courts to get the medicines they need... good luck here if you happen to have a big cost illness such as cancer or AIDS.

I guess we're still better than other countries... but hell if there isn't a lot of things to be worked out here.

I can understand why they stopped doing such rankings due to "complexity".
Thankfully my health is good.

[Edited 2009-08-16 10:32:58]
If, for example, you came at four o'clock in the afternoon, then at three o'clock I shall begin to have existential angst because you nag as hell. www.alpharamirez.com
 
olle
Posts: 2693
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:13 pm

I have personal experience of the Chilean system. I lived there a few years and it was great when you belonged to upper middleclass and got a flu inbetween. But I have experience of my mother in law that had a heart attack a few years ago. They suddenly said that a few things needed to fix the heart was not included. We needed to sign a cheque without amount with the idea to at least pay USD 15 000 in order to make the hospital talk to us. And that with a private insurance. Pinochet by the way copied the US system so I suppose that people in US with older relatives has similar experiences.

One general problem in Chile was that as long as you work for one company you are quit fine. But if you get Cancer or something similar - and you cannot proceed work you loose this security. Then it is up to your family to cover you.
 
User avatar
757MDE
Posts: 1451
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:45 am

RE: NHS "evil" According To Recent Advert

Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:07 pm



Quoting Olle (Reply 43):
I have personal experience of the Chilean system.

Seems familiar...
Lots of similarities with the Colombian one, in the bad things the most sadly.
If, for example, you came at four o'clock in the afternoon, then at three o'clock I shall begin to have existential angst because you nag as hell. www.alpharamirez.com

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