Quoting Ken777 (Reply 146): Health insurance is giong to continue to rise, doubling every 5 to 10 years. There will be a point where most employers will dump that cost, regardless of what federal programs are out there.

Medicare premimums have doubled in the last two years, and that is the government plan.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 146): Quoting DXing (Reply 120): And only fools turn a blind eye to the mismangement that is the federal government. Or the greed and exclusions of the insurance companies.

Only the bad companies make the headlines, Ken, and you know that. Most insurance companies are responsible companies. I have had blue Cross/Blue Shiels, Aetna, Humana, and others, and never had a problem.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 146): How about a public plan for insurance rejects? What's your problems with that?

I can live with that, but I still think the government will eventually screw those people.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 146): Just look at St. Jude's Hospital, nationally famous for advancement in acute leukemia. They have done an amazing job over the years, but the blunt reality is that this country's level of greed will ensure than the kids who live will be insurance companies' reject for as long as they live.

There should be more St. Jude's in the world, but unfortunately, there is not. I don't recall a questionair about my, or my family heatlh history when signing up with a new insurance company.

Quoting DXing (Reply 147): Quoting Seb146 (Reply 135): Like you sticking to it by bringing up auto insurance.... Insurance, whether it is auto or health, has its premiums based on the same thing, level of risk. What part of that you can't comprehend is beyond me. I guess you figure that a 5 time DUI driver should pay the same low rate as the driver with a spotless record? Translate that into a person with a history of long term illness versus the person who has never been sick a day in his life. You think they should pay the same rate?

DXing, in his mind, that would be "fair".

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 135): Quoting DXing (Reply 133): Reach for it. There's a legitimate defense out there somewhere. Let me paint you a very real picture of what happens every winter in Portland, since you live in the land of milk and honey: Every winter, Portland gets an ice storm. Lows into the 10s and highs not even at 30. This horrible weather lasts for about a week,

That sounds like the winters we have here in DFW.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 135): Women with children who have no home to go to either because she lost her job, her boyfriend/husband kicked her out,

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 135): Every winter, there is a shelter for women and their children that opens for the ice storms. Every winter, they are filled to capacity within an hour. Every winter, they have to turn women with children away. Every winter, there are men with no children that sleep in doorways during the storms because the shelters are over capacity. Are you telling me Portland simply has to ship these homeless to Kentucky for the winter? There, ladies and gentlemen, is your compassionate conservatism.

So, how many homeless people do you invite into your home during the winter?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 135): substance abuse issues....

Sorry, friend, I draw the line there. Those people have made their choice, and now must live with it. Let their families deal with their problems, I don't need them.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 135): . And, don't come back with the results of some poll, because I can find the results of a poll that says 95% of Americans say the current system sucks.

Quoting DXing (Reply 147): Ok, show it. It'd be a first, an actual fact to back up some far out statement.

I agree with DXing, prove it or retract it. We have never gotten 95% of Americans to agree on anything.

Quoting DXing (Reply 147): Quoting Seb146 (Reply 135): Some of us never got opportunities because we were told EVERY SINGLE DAY we had none. That works right up to the point you are 18. At that time you are an adult and if you buy into someone who tells you that you have no one but yourself to blame for doing so.

You don't "get" oppertunities, you create your own.

Quoting DXing (Reply 147): At that time you are an adult and if you buy into someone who tells you that you have no one but yourself to blame for doing so.

Even if I work and work and get everything done I can possibly do and then some but still end up with nothing or even less than nothing I have no one to blame but myself? Well, then, why even try? Work my fingers to the bone to improve my station, get nothing in return or even have it taken from me for doing for me. What kind of life is that?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 145): I think a large percentage of them can afford their own insurance, it is just that they would rather spend their money on big screen TVs, new cars, or live in a home they can bearly afford. They don't want to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, they want me, and you to do it.

Or, these people that had these great paying jobs where they could acutally afford big screen TVs, new cars, or a nice home. Until that job went away. Now, they can not afford even their house payment. They give the car back and bought an antenna so they could cut the cable or sattelite and trimmed as much as they could, including dumping their families health insurance. What a fantastic system. Let's care for no one.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 145): Obama is spending faster than all previous Presidents combined. Bush left us with a $650B deficiet,

Yet not one of you complained when Bush and his supporters in Congress were spending faster and running up the deficit faster than all the other presidents including Reagan!

Quoting DXing (Reply 147): Perhaps you'd like to elaborate with some archived news stories?

You were not in PDX, then. Look at Oregonlive.com for the best archived stories. I lived in Gresham. The 84 freeway was closed for a few days. And, yes, there are a number of shelters in Portland. You want to build more? Will you fund them? Apparently, you can dodge the IRS well enough that you have so much more money, you can pay for them.

Quoting DXing (Reply 147): I guess you figure that a 5 time DUI driver should pay the same low rate as the driver with a spotless record?

But, is that the same thing as jacking up the rates on a person that has cancer or their family has a history of heart disease? That is completely different.

Quoting DXing (Reply 147): the self centered mumbo jumbo saying it's somehow the taxpayers responsibility and you haven't had a fair shake.

Hear that, Europe, Japan and Canada? You are all self-centered because you care about your citizens!

Quoting DXing (Reply 147): its been upheld over the past few weeks via people showing up at town halls and telling their Senators and Congresspersons to lay off their health care.

And not allowing others to express their opinions and calling elected officials Nazis. Such patriotism.

Quoting DXing (Reply 147): Perhaps after you get your tax problems sorted out you can work on getting your act together and making your fair shake happen like most of the rest of us have.

I am through talking to you. You are obviously so much better than everyone else on this board simply because you are part of the facist corporate system. Good day, sir.

Quoting DXing (Reply 147): Yet you evidently have no problem with the government becoming that as they have in other countries that ration healthcare.

Private insurance has been rationing health care for years - follow their profit reports, or read stories about doctors calling 1-800-MOMMY-MAY-I to get permission for a major test or treatment.

With a medial average of $10.3 Million a year a Health Insurance CEO is far more sensitive to the impact providing treatment would have on his compensation than a government worker is.

Quoting DXing (Reply 147): Insurance, whether it is auto or health, has its premiums based on the same thing, level of risk.

Letting Little Billy drive is a lot different than treating the ill.

There is simply no comparison.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 150): Medicare premimums have doubled in the last two years, and that is the government plan.

Oooops. I pay $96 a month as I recall. The rest is private insurance - a very profitable relationship between public & private insurance. Who would have guessed?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 150): I have had blue Cross/Blue Shiels, Aetna, Humana, and others, and never had a problem.

As I recall, Humana has been in a lot of trouble in the past for denying treatments, or something like that. I can remember putting them on my poo list in disgust.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 150): I can live with that, but I still think the government will eventually screw those people.

It is far better to have the government at least care for them in accordance with normal protocols than to deny treatment, or payment, that insurance companies do.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 150): I don't recall a questionair about my, or my family heatlh history when signing up with a new insurance company.

Check the application. I doubt if there is a health insurance company in the country that doesn't ask questions.

Quoting DXing (Reply 147): I guess you figure that a 5 time DUI driver should pay the same low rate as the driver with a spotless record?

A driver with 5 DUIs is heading to prison in this state. No worries about insurance.

A fellow countryman with a serious illness is heading to charity, bankruptcy or death under your senario.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 150): Sorry, friend, I draw the line there. Those people have made their choice, and now must live with it. Let their families deal with their problems, I don't need them.

LOL, we had out Representative to Congress (in DC) go into treatment because he was addicted to booze. But he's a conservative Republican so the taxpayers would be picking up that bill.  

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 144): Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 141): Rush does not speak for all of us, or even a majority. Operaton: Chaos? Teabagging? And, as I recall, none of the disruption at town hall meetings was not even a factor until right wing talking heads like Rush and Hannity and FOX and all the others started getting behind it. Speaking out against the government is patriotic again, until a Republican is voted in, then, absolutly everyone who speaks out against the president is a terrorist and needs to be detained as such. I get it.

So how many Americans did Bush have detained? Cindy Sheehan? Nope. The Iraqi that threw his shoes at Bush? Nope, the Iraqi government did that.

But, I do seem to recall President Clinton and (then) First lady Hillery saying the opposition to them was unpatriotic.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): Quoting DXing (Reply 147): At that time you are an adult and if you buy into someone who tells you that you have no one but yourself to blame for doing so. Even if I work and work and get everything done I can possibly do and then some but still end up with nothing or even less than nothing I have no one to blame but myself? Well, then, why even try? Work my fingers to the bone to improve my station, get nothing in return or even have it taken from me for doing for me. What kind of life is that?

Ohhh, Seb146 is having a pity party for himself. But, I do have a question, if you get nothing for your work, what is being taken from you?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 145): I think a large percentage of them can afford their own insurance, it is just that they would rather spend their money on big screen TVs, new cars, or live in a home they can bearly afford. They don't want to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, they want me, and you to do it. Or, these people that had these great paying jobs where they could acutally afford big screen TVs, new cars, or a nice home. Until that job went away. Now, they can not afford even their house payment. They give the car back and bought an antenna so they could cut the cable or sattelite and trimmed as much as they could, including dumping their families health insurance. What a fantastic system. Let's care for no one.

Are you talking about the over 3,000,000 Americans who have lost their jobs since King Obama signed the stymulus bill into law and ended the recession?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 145): Obama is spending faster than all previous Presidents combined. Bush left us with a $650B deficiet, Yet not one of you complained when Bush and his supporters in Congress were spending faster and running up the deficit faster than all the other presidents including Reagan!

Actually, Jimmy Carter, you may remember him for standing up to protect Americans in Iran, had bigger deficets, by percentages than both Reagan and Bush 43 combined.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): Apparently, you can dodge the IRS well enough that you have so much more money, you can pay for them.

Then why don't you turn him in to the IRS, since you seem to be so familure with his finances?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): Quoting DXing (Reply 147): the self centered mumbo jumbo saying it's somehow the taxpayers responsibility and you haven't had a fair shake. Hear that, Europe, Japan and Canada? You are all self-centered because you care about your citizens!

You complain about only getting back $400 in return from your taxes each year. Try paying the tax rates in Europe, Japan, or Canada.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): Quoting DXing (Reply 147): its been upheld over the past few weeks via people showing up at town halls and telling their Senators and Congresspersons to lay off their health care. And not allowing others to express their opinions and calling elected officials Nazis. Such patriotism.

Hmmm, your memory is a little clouded, it was Harry Reid who called the voters Nazis, and Nancy Pelosi who said they were carrying swactickers.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): Quoting DXing (Reply 147): Perhaps after you get your tax problems sorted out you can work on getting your act together and making your fair shake happen like most of the rest of us have. I am through talking to you. You are obviously so much better than everyone else on this board simply because you are part of the facist corporate system. Good day, sir.

First you throw your own pity party.

Now you are throwing a temper tantrum.

Acting a little childest today, are we?

Do we need to send you to your room?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 150): I don't recall a questionair about my, or my family heatlh history when signing up with a new insurance company.

Then you either have a very nice large group employer-provided policy that accepts all employees of your employer and sets rates on the basis of your group's overall risk/usage, or you have a poor memory. Individual policies and many of those covering smaller groups not only have extensive questionnaires about health history which must be completed by the applicant, they also require the applicant to sign releases of information so they can obtain records from any previous physicians providing treatment. They use all acquired data to determine if the applicant is acceptable. How else do you think they find all those pre-existing conditions they use to deny coverage?

I forgot to add that insurance companies do all the above, and they usually require new labwork obtained themselves to look at lipid profiles, blood sugars, and other items that might make an applicant a poor risk.

Quoting Dvk (Reply 154): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 150): I don't recall a questionair about my, or my family heatlh history when signing up with a new insurance company. Then you either have a very nice large group employer-provided policy that accepts all employees of your employer and sets rates on the basis of your group's overall risk/usage, or you have a poor memory.

I worked for DFW airport before I retired from them. We had about 1300 employees, plus or minus 100. That is not a large company, but is considered a medimum sized company. As I said, I never filled out a questionair for health insurance. Every DFW Airport Employee paid premimums based on their family size. The most I ever paid was about $22 per pay period (every two weeks).

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 156): We had about 1300 employees, plus or minus 100.

That is quite large enough a group for the kind of policy to which I referred. The organization in which I practice has about 400 employees, and we have that kind of policy. That's why you didn't have to undergo the inquisition inflicted on many when they apply for health insurance. A group of 1300 can easily have its premiums based on the group's overall usage and estimated risk, which ultimately protects the individual employee. It is a very fortunate system for those of us who have or have had it, like you. Also remember that your employer was probably paying 2-3 times what you paid in addition to your out of paycheck expense each pay period for your coverage.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 156): Every DFW Airport Employee paid premimums based on their family size. The most I ever paid was about $22 per pay period (every two weeks).

That's an amazing price, as a lot of people paying hundreds into an employer sponsored plan will tell you. I can only guess that there are union workers also employed there and they negotiated basically free health insurance - and everyone else was able to tag onto it.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 153): I do seem to recall President Clinton and (then) First lady Hillery saying the opposition to them was unpatriotic.

I don't remember that at all. I do remember the witch hunt that came with trying to get a popular president ousted because of a private matter and how anyone opposed to that was unpatriotic.

It's funny, but when Republicans do something, it is patriotic, but when Democrats do it, it is deamonized.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 153): But, I do have a question, if you get nothing for your work, what is being taken from you?

Home. Food. Just minor things.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 153): Are you talking about the over 3,000,000 Americans who have lost their jobs

And who could have done something about that in the previous eight years instead of printing and handing out more money? One president is handed a problem that was created over eight years and you blame the incoming guy? Sure.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 153): Jimmy Carter, you may remember him for standing up to protect Americans in Iran,

It was already proven that the hostages in Iran were released because of Reagan winning the election. I suppose you would have thought it better if Carter had bombed the snot out of them?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 153): Then why don't you turn him in to the IRS, since you seem to be so familure with his finances?

Why is it, when it comes to finances, the Republicans know what is best for everyone? You and I have never met. You don't know my financial situation. You do not know every detail of my life, yet you and DX seem to know exactly how to spend my money. You both are liberals! That is EXACTLY what the right has been saying about the left for years. Welcome to the fold! Here is a helpful hint for being liberal: Look out for the best interest of low income Americans because you never know when those Republicans will make you one, too!

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 153): Try paying the tax rates in Europe, Japan, or Canada.

And get low cost health care, quality public transportation, and governments that don't go around telling other countries how to act? That would be absolutly atrocious! Why would anyone want that?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 153): your memory is a little clouded,

Let's see: Calling the party with a majority of white guys as their spokes people racist versus calling the party filled with gays, Jews, blacks, and women racists? You don't seem to remember the woman calling Barney Frank and the President Nazis.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 153): Now you are throwing a temper tantrum. Acting a little childest today, are we?

See my previous comments about you both knowing what is best for me. I refuse to deal with people that talk down to me. There are Republicans both on this board and in real life that can stick to their guns without talking down to people. There are Republicans that know they do not know me as an individual and do not generalize. Meaning: Nancy Pelosi and PETA do not speak for me. You and DX do not get that. You both have been endoctrinated by the right to the point where anyone that disagrees with you has the exact same opinion as Pelosi, Obama, PETA, and the devil. It is impossible for people like you to wrap your head around the fact that all of us can, in fact, think for ourselves because people like you have had your thinking done for you for so long by people like Newt Gingrich, Ronald Reagan, Rush Limbaugh and FOX. Don't get me wrong: Gingrich and Reagan both had a few ideas that were good, some that needed tweaking and some that were downright horrid. The people that you follow today decided to pick and choose and came up with the right you see before you today with all the hatred and that lost so badly in 2008 elections and had power taken from them in 2006.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): Even if I work and work and get everything done I can possibly do and then some but still end up with nothing or even less than nothing I have no one to blame but myself?

Guess what, you're not alone. I moved my family 7 times in 7 years to 4 different states picking up one better job after another. I didn't walk out the army at 21 into the good job I have today. But one thing I never did was blame someone else or claim I wasn't getting a fair shake.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): Well, then, why even try?

Because that is the responsible thing to do as an adult.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): Work my fingers to the bone to improve my station, get nothing in return or even have it taken from me for doing for me.

We've already discussed how you've missed the boat on paying your taxes. If you are being honest about your income no way you only get $400 back on $3000 withheld.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): What kind of life is that?

That's your life. Want something better? Then do what the rest of us do, work for it. If you're waiting for some one to sprinkle magical fairy dust on you Cinderella, it could be a long wait.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): You were not in PDX, then.

Never said I was, but that doesn't mean I don't see the weather there when I either dispatch too or am looking at PDX as an alternate.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): Look at Oregonlive.com for the best archived stories. I

Sorry, you made the claim, you back it up.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): Apparently, you can dodge the IRS well enough that you have so much more money, you can pay for them.

I don't dodge anything. I pay my fair share. Evidently you are paying more than your fair share. As to the money I have, I got it through scrimping and saving along with my wife. By driving used cars into the ground, by watching a used 13 inch TV for years, by using the library to the fullest extent I could, by eating in, packing lunch, and skipping things like going out to bars except to work a part time job as bartender/bouncer. I never saved a lot, but I always saved something. It took 30 years but I've finally gotten a tidy little sum packed away for a rainy day. That's how you go about it. You won't build Rome in a day unless you come up with an original idea you can market and you won't do that wasting time pining about what you don't have and who might be responsible for that.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): But, is that the same thing as jacking up the rates on a person that has cancer or their family has a history of heart disease? That is completely different.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 152): Letting Little Billy drive is a lot different than treating the ill. There is simply no comparison.

   Whether you are talking about the hull of an aircraft or ship, an automobile, or a human being, insurance is based on level of risk. Again, you both are confusing health insurance with discount health care. If you have a car accident or your car breaks down you don't then start calling around to get coverage, it's too late. The same principle applies if you have an accident or get sick without insurance. If you have a bad driving history you don't expect to get the cheapest rates. The same principle applies if you have a history of heart disease or some other life threatening disorder. Why? Because in the first instance it is no longer risk, you've had the accident or the illness is already present and the damage is done. In the second instance because the level of risk that the insurance company must assume is greater. Is life insurance cheaper for a 20 year old or a 50 year old given the same basic health? Why? Simply because of the level of risk. What part of that you both don't comprehend is beyond me.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): And not allowing others to express their opinions and calling elected officials Nazis. Such patriotism.

Yet it was patriotism when Code Pink and others did the same thing during the Bush administration. The shoe pinches a little when it's on the other foot eh?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 151): You are obviously so much better than everyone else on this board simply because you are part of the facist corporate system.

While it's nice to see that you are correctly identifying our current administrations relationship to corporate america I have to disagree that I'm any better than anyone else on this board. I have a lot more life experience than you do and I spent a lot of years wandering around before I finally got a clue on how things really work. I do expect people to be responsible for themselves and I don't expect, or demand a free ride as others do. I think the majority of Americans are in the same boat and that is why you see such disagreement with the current health care reform bill up for discussion.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 152): Private insurance has been rationing health care for years - follow their profit reports, or read stories about doctors calling 1-800-MOMMY-MAY-I to get permission for a major test or treatment.

That does not equate to rationing. I lost a molar last December. My dental insurance will pay for 50% of bridge work and 0% for an implant. My dentist, and the second dentist I went too both were in agreement that the implant was the way to go. So guess what, I'm paying to have the implant out of my own pocket. $3000. So my care is not rationed, it is just not paid for. Under a totally government run insurance program, the kind suggested by Hillary Care and hinted at by the Obama administration even though I have the cash in hand I wouldn't be able to get it since the government will decide what the dentist can do. Under Hillary care it would have actually been illegal for a dentist to hang his own shingle and practice outside of the government run system. BTW, medicare and medicaid both will deny payment for certain treatments so rationing via the government already exists. It's one of the reasons an older person is wise to have supplemental health insurance to pay the difference between what the health care provider charges and what the government is willing to pay.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 152): With a medial average of $10.3 Million a year a Health Insurance CEO is far more sensitive to the impact providing treatment would have on his compensation than a government worker is.

Still have a problem with someone making big bucks I see. I wonder, when you factor in all the costs, what the President makes per year?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 152): A driver with 5 DUIs is heading to prison in this state.

Then change that to 5 accidents, or 5 moving violations. The principle remains the same. Seb146 and you both reason that that person should not pay anymore than the person who's driving record is spotless.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 152): A fellow countryman with a serious illness is heading to charity, bankruptcy or death under your senario.

   A fellow countrymen with a serious illness is looking at that regardless of what type of health insurance he has since that type of illness is most likely going to affect the work he does in most cases leading to financial problems. A person with that type of illness my die regardless of the health care available to him, Ted Kennedy ring a bell? How about Don Hewitt? Robert Novak? Just a few recent examples of people with means unable to halt their demise, or near demise, even though money was/is no object.

Both of you need to rethink you definition of health care. It has become apparent that you equate health care with health insurance and the two are not interchangable. Insurance is a bet against the future. Always has been. The insurance company is betting that you won't burn your house down, wreck your car, sink your boat, die an early death, or come down with hypertension based on an assumed level of risk that is borne out of methodical tables that they have developed over the years. If you have 5 wrecks in a car you're going to pay more, if you have half a lung taken out you are going to pay more. The level of risk is higher and it doesn't make a difference if we are talking about an inanimate object or a human being.

That being said, conservatives have no problem expanding a program such as medicaid to include people that have pre-existing conditions or a higher level of income. But in exchange for that there have to set levels of some sort. Income, serious illness (you have to have one or more), and age are just some of the factors. Those rules have to be there in order to keep the boat from being swamped by those who don't belong. See what happened in Hawaii when you don't put those types of rules in place. People that were paying for their childrens' health insurance dumped it and went on the State program which ended up breaking that program. So far I've seen in this discussion people like Ken777 and Seb146 demanding a public option but also not agreeing to any kind of limits. They both claim that requiring someone to be of a certain economic means to be eligible for that program dooms that person to a life of poverty. That is not true since a person can always work for a better life while on the public option and why conservatives say we can discuss where the level ought to be but there has to be a level set and it has to be below a level that would lead to most people dumping what they have, and any employers from dumping their health care programs in favor of forcing their employees onto a government run program. Tort reform needs to be included as does health insurance regulation across State lines so people and employers have more choice in whom they can purchase health insurance from. Government has to pay 100% of the cost of patient treatment instead of the 70-80% they pay now which leads to back door health care cost increases that get paid for in higher premiums by the private health insurance consumer.

So conservatives are willing to fix what is broken, but not trash the entire system. That is the difference between the two parties in thought and practice. So far the democratic party has yet to accept any of those ideas so in reality who is really interested in fixing health care?

Quoting Dvk (Reply 157): Also remember that your employer was probably paying 2-3 times what you paid in addition to your out of paycheck expense each pay period for your coverage.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 158): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 156): Every DFW Airport Employee paid premimums based on their family size. The most I ever paid was about $22 per pay period (every two weeks). That's an amazing price, as a lot of people paying hundreds into an employer sponsored plan will tell you. I can only guess that there are union workers also employed there and they negotiated basically free health insurance - and everyone else was able to tag onto it.

No, we were not unionized at DFW Airport, Texas is a right to work state. The Airport does not have any union employees, the airlines had unions, but they were not our employees. Yes, I know DFW paid 3 X what I paid for my premimum.

Years ago a union attempted to organize the Airport Employees into their union. They failed miserably, IIRC the vote was about 92% against the union, and 8% for the union.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 159): I do remember the witch hunt that came with trying to get a popular president ousted because of a private matter and how anyone opposed to that was unpatriotic.

No, Clinton's impeachment had nothing to do with the BJs he was getting from Monica Lewinski. Go back and read the articals of impeachment from the US House of Representitives. He was impeached for lying to a Federal Grand Jury, which is a felony.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 159): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 153): Are you talking about the over 3,000,000 Americans who have lost their jobs And who could have done something about that in the previous eight years instead of printing and handing out more money? One president is handed a problem that was created over eight years and you blame the incoming guy? Sure.

Why are you so filled with hate of Bush. Bush pulled off a recovery of the 2000-2001 recession (left to him by Clinton). The next recession, the current one, began in 2007 and extends to this day. It began because Freddie Mae and Fannie Mac gave motgages to people who couuld not afford them, due to changes in 1998, under Clinton. Both Obama and babbling Biden said the recession was now theirs after BHO signed the stimulus bill in February. They have claimed it, yet still want to say they "inharited" it. That is typical Democrat, trying to have it both ways.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 159): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 153): Jimmy Carter, you may remember him for standing up to protect Americans in Iran, It was already proven that the hostages in Iran were released because of Reagan winning the election. I suppose you would have thought it better if Carter had bombed the snot out of them?

No, that was never proven, but the Iranians did release the Americans as soon as Reagan was sworn in to office, indicating they were afraid that he would bomb them. Carter never had balls enough to say that.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 159): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 153): Then why don't you turn him in to the IRS, since you seem to be so familure with his finances? Why is it, when it comes to finances, the Republicans know what is best for everyone? You and I have never met. You don't know my financial situation. You do not know every detail of my life, yet you and DX seem to know exactly how to spend my money. You both are liberals! That is EXACTLY what the right has been saying about the left for years. Welcome to the fold! Here is a helpful hint for being liberal: Look out for the best interest of low income Americans because you never know when those Republicans will make you one, too!

You, my friend were the one who brought up your own financial situation, and I even gave you advice. You brought it up in reply # 113;

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 121): Quoting Seb146 (Reply 113): Quoting DXing (Reply 112): Secondly, you do understand that most of the bottom third of the economic ladder pay no taxes? Anything witholding done during the year they get back when they do their tax forms the following year? Really? No taxes at all? Why does my paycheck say I pay taxes? Oh, I see. Because, in April, after paying, say $3000 in taxes, I get $400 back? Right. I pay no taxes. It has been that way for years. Ever hear of interest? What about the 9% sales tax (I live in California, now)? Do I ever get that back? Perhaps it is that you are not in the lower one third of wage earners according to the size of your family (exemptions)? Do you own your home and pay a mortgage? the interest is deductable, so are property taxes, and state income taxes. Do you qualify for EIS? Do you know your union dues are deductable, as well as any expenses you paid for your jobs (professional publications, tools, uniforms, etc.)? Do you know that state sales taxes are deductable, even if you do not itemize? The only interest you are taxed on is anything over $400 per year, so if you earned $500 in interest, you only pay taxes on $100. Do you know you can deduct any and all medical related payments over 7.5% of you AGI (that means in order for health expenses to be deductable, the costs of your health care must exceed 7.5% of you total Adjusted Gross Income)? It sounds like you overpaid your taxes, my friend, I suggest you file tax amendments for the last 3 years. You may need a tax agency to help you. It is your money you are giving up. It is perhaps thousands of dollars, but that is just a guess, as I don't know anything about your situation, nor do I want to know. BTW, if the Dems were really interested in helping people pay for health costs, they would remove that 7.5% cap of total AGI and make all health costs deductable. But, they are not interested in doing that, are they? That alone would save everyone thousands of dollars in taxes.

Speaking for myself, and maybe DXing agrees, I could care less about your finances, or how you spend it, but if you don't provide for yourself, don't expect me to do it for you.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 159): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 153): Try paying the tax rates in Europe, Japan, or Canada. And get low cost health care, quality public transportation, and governments that don't go around telling other countries how to act? That would be absolutly atrocious! Why would anyone want that?

I am sure Canada, Japan, or the EU will welcome you with open arms. Do you need help packing?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 159): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 153): your memory is a little clouded, Let's see: Calling the party with a majority of white guys as their spokes people racist versus calling the party filled with gays, Jews, blacks, and women racists? You don't seem to remember the woman calling Barney Frank and the President Nazis.

Do you know who the head of the RNC is? It is former MD Lt. Gov. Micheal Steel, he is black. Have you ever heard of the Log Cabin Group? They are Gay Republicans. There are more women in the GOP than the DNC. Plenty of the Jews are Republicans. A large number of Blacks are Republicans. There are more women and minorities in high offices, both elected and within the RNC than there are in the DNC. Obama has more white guys and white women in his Cabinet and Staff than Bush ever did. Bush had a Black Man and a Black Woman as his Sec. of State. Bush had 7 Blacks and 6 Hispanics within his two Cabinets, Obama only has white guys and gals. Bush had several Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians on his staff, Obama has white guys. Why are all of the "leaders" within the Democrat Congress and DNC white? Obama was elected president, but the DNC would have also rallied around Hillary, if she had held on better in the Primaries. If Hillary had become the DNC Nominee, Obama would only be a senator from IL, and not within the Congressional leadership. The woman who called Frank and Obama Nazis is a democrat from his district who opposes ObamaCare.

Even the few elected Black Dems have mostly white staffs. Then of course your party also has the wining incompetent cry baby who is the sitting Governor of NY accusing everyone within the NY Democrat Party of being racists.

Don't pull that racists card crap on me or my party. The Democrat Party is the party of bigots and racists, and I'll call you on it.

Joe Lieberman said the other day that in the Senate negotiations, Republicans have agreed on about 75% of the bill, but are fighting over the remaining 25% (presumably the part containing the public option). He recommends that we go ahead and pass the 75%, which include a lot of the reforms including protections against precondition rejection etc, and wait a couple of years to see how those reforms make a difference, and decide whether or not to go for the next 25% at that time.

Wouldn't that be the adult thing to do, rather than "It's got to be all my way or you're just a neandrethal!"?

Proof that socialized medicine is the best solution. This guy would be dead if he lived in America...and not only in Miami either.

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 163): Proof that socialized medicine is the best solution. This guy would be dead if he lived in America...and not only in Miami either.

WTF???

Are you saying we have no 80 year olds in this country?

Are you saying that any Cuban citizen would benefit from having surgeons flown in specially from Spain and elsewhere?

  

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 161): Clinton's impeachment had nothing to do with the BJs he was getting from Monica Lewinski.

Actually, it did. Ken Starr kept digging and digging and digging until he got Clinton. How, exactly was that for the good of the nation?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 161): It began because Freddie Mae and Fannie Mac gave motgages to people who couuld not afford them, due to changes in 1998, under Clinton.

Passed by a Republican majority Congress. Not just Clinton. He may have signed the bill, but it was Congress who actually passed it.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 161): You, my friend were the one who brought up your own financial situation, and I even gave you advice.

You don't think I have tried everything in my power within the law to make my financial situation better? Thanks for having such low expectations. Thanks for assuming you know so much about me. Thanks for believing the worst in me.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 161): I could care less about your finances, or how you spend it, but if you don't provide for yourself, don't expect me to do it for you.

Again, I am, as are so many Americans, doing EVERYTHING in our power to stay above water. Shelter and food come first. TV and internet are down the list. We know that. We are re-arranging our lives accordingly. Unfortunatly, health care is one thing we think we can cut back on. No one expects to have a major health crisis. No one wants one. If we can just stay healthy until a good paying and steady job comes along....

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 161): I am sure Canada, Japan, or the EU will welcome you with open arms. Do you need help packing?

Or, you could find a nice place where the poor know their place and don't disturb people like you. Someplace where you can look down your nose on all those lazy people just sitting about waiting for a hand out. Russia? Angola? Myanmar? India? Your statement is typical of the right: If you don't love the United States exactly the way I do, get out.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 161): Do you know who the head of the RNC is?

I talk about 20 or so people and you give me the entire makeup of the Repubclian party and compare it to Obama's administration? Show me where I ever said the entire Republican party is only old white guys? Did you know there are gays in the Democratic party? There are women in the Democratic party? There are Christians? Jews? Blacks? What does that have to do with the most vocal ones, namely Rush, Hannity, and O'Reilly?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 164): Are you saying we have no 80 year olds in this country?

Sure, but they didn't have the CIA try to poison them and survived either.  BTW, doesn't Fidel look much healthier now?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 164): Are you saying that any Cuban citizen would benefit from having surgeons flown in specially from Spain and elsewhere?

Do they have socialized medicine in Spain and elsewhere?

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 166): Sure, but they didn't have the CIA try to poison them and survived either.

According to the Church Committee hearings back in the 70s, that idea was thrown around within the CIA, but was never attempted and the idea was dropped along with all the other assasination ideas, with the exception of one attempt in the early 60s where they used mob connections. Why did they have to call the mafia? Because in spite of all the James Bond style stories, the CIA does not have trained killers on the payroll.

Back to the subject. What does a 50 year old CIA plot have to do with Castro's health care?

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 166): Do they have socialized medicine in Spain and elsewhere?

It's a two-tiered system. You have the universal health care system, and you have a private health care system with private insurers for those people who can afford it. The quality of the care in the private system is considered to be far better from what I understand (I've never personally had to go to a doctor in Spain.) What's your point?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 161): Bush pulled off a recovery of the 2000-2001 recession (left to him by Clinton).

The recession began AFTER Bush took office.

Quoting DXing (Reply 147): If they can't afford te insurance there are several ways to overcome that without trashing an entire system for 15% of the population that has trouble either affording or obtaining insurance. As someone else pointed out that is akin to writing off the entire car because the fender and hood got bent up in an accident. It makes no sense.

So we are in agreement that we need something to take care of the 15%

How about significantly increasing funding for the VA Health?

Can we do that?

Quoting DXing (Reply 147): "I'm working towards being able to afford the insurance I want",

And a lot of people won't ever be able to afford it, and a lot of people would be refused.

A public program for them? That would leave you with cheap insurance and keep the insurance companies making very plump profits.

Quoting DXing (Reply 147): have a lot of faith in people and its been upheld over the past few weeks via people showing up at town halls and telling their Senators and Congresspersons to lay off their health care.

And a lot are probably on employer paid health insurance. They will be a hell of a lot louder if their employer can no longer afford the ride they are on - and drops their support.

Quoting DXing (Reply 160): If you have a car accident or your car breaks down you don't then start calling around to get coverage, it's too late.

Nope.

And since insurance today is about $6,000 per person it's clear that a lot of people won;t be able to afford it.

A good reason for the private care for those with the money and public coverage for the rest - including those with pre-existing conditions.

Quoting DXing (Reply 160): Is life insurance cheaper for a 20 year old or a 50 year old given the same basic health?

And the 50 year old may well have paid in during their lifetime without needing expensive care. Only to have others deciding he or she is no longer "desirable" because they are hitting the expensive years

Again, lets leave the private insurance to those who are cheap to cover and will pay big premiums.

Quoting DXing (Reply 160): So guess what, I'm paying to have the implant out of my own pocket. $3000. So my care is not rationed, it is just not paid for.

So if you didn't have the money you would be denied the care? Or just that care? A bridge covering 3 teeth is not that cheap - especially if it is High Noble. A bridge, however, takes away possibly very good enamel from the abutting teeth so, of course the implant is a good option.

Quoting DXing (Reply 160): BTW, medicare and medicaid both will deny payment for certain treatments so rationing via the government already exists.

Why is that rationing care when the same for your crown wasn't?

Quoting DXing (Reply 160): till have a problem with someone making big bucks I see. I wonder, when you factor in all the costs, what the President makes per year?

I don't. I really happy for them.

What I am NOT, however, is DUMB enough to feel sorry for them when they cry about the mean, unfair government actually competing with them. Cry me a bloody river.

Health insurance is a highly profitable business and the highest median compensation of ANY SECTOR is simply a very good demonstration of that. You can feel sorry for them, but I sure as hell don't.

Oh, and your monthly premiums are helping to pay for the million bucks a day they are spending to keep that compensation level the highest of any business sector.

Quoting DXing (Reply 160): A fellow countrymen with a serious illness is looking at that regardless of what type of health insurance he has since that type of illness is most likely going to affect the work he does in most cases leading to financial problems.

Let's take acute leukemia - I'm familiar with that one.

It CAN be treated and remission CAN be achieved in the first month of treatment.

But after remission there is a lot of chemo (and a lot of costs) that are faced in order to keep it from coming back.

Tested protocols that work - I'm also familiar with that.

I also know that there are kids from, say, St. Jude's who have been "cured" and have frown up. Adults now - but certainly unfit for that special private care you are so proud of.

And it is starting to show that they are having cardiac problems as adults, apparently as a result of the chemo they had as a child.

Treated.

Sured.

Stuff you want for your families.

And, of course, rejects in the eyes of profitable insurance companies.

Maybe THEY, the rejects, deserve a public plan that they can PAY INTO.

Wow. What a thought.

Quoting DXing (Reply 160): It has become apparent that you equate health care with health insurance and the two are not interchangable.

I don't.

I believe that health care should be like any critical factor in living.

Like police.

And fire departments.

And public school system

And a military, especially one that can help in a national crisis, like Katrina.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 161): Yes, I know DFW paid 3 X what I paid for my premimum.

The concern I think people need to face these days is that employers will at some point hit a brick wall where they stop those benefits. And I believe that employers are moving faster and faster to that brick wall.

If people don't start setting up an environment where they are protected after that wall is hit then they are going to be shit out of luck.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 169): So we are in agreement that we need something to take care of the 15% How about significantly increasing funding for the VA Health? Can we do that?

Yes on the 15%, that is where the effort should have been all along. VA Health is discretionary but with the large amount of new veterans from both Iraq and Afghanistan the system should be on a mandatory spending plan. How much? VA should still have to show cause for their budget or they will run into the same hole as Medicare and Medicaid have.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 169): A public program for them? That would leave you with cheap insurance and keep the insurance companies making very plump profits.

Some top out economic level has to be met. There is simply no way around that or the boat gets swamped.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 169): And a lot are probably on employer paid health insurance. They will be a hell of a lot louder if their employer can no longer afford the ride they are on - and drops their support.

You can stop with the scare stories. Most employers know that if they want quality employees they have to offer some basic benefits.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 169): And since insurance today is about $6,000 per person

You've touted this figure several times and several times people on this forum have shot it down, including me. I've shopped health insurance in my area and don't come anywhere near 6K per person based on my family, 2 adults 2 kids. Geroge Will in column a few weeks ago wrote that:

The Hudson Institute's Betsy McCaughey, writing in the American Spectator, says that in 1960 the average American household spent 53 percent of its disposable income on food, housing, energy and health care. Today the portion of income consumed by those four has barely changed — 55 percent. But the health-care component has increased while the other three combined have decreased. This is partly because as societies become richer, they spend more on health care — and symphonies, universities, museums, etc.

so even though health care costs have gone up, for the average family it has balanced itself out with other items.
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/will062909.php3

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 169): And the 50 year old may well have paid

Deflection. Who is going to pay less, the 20 year old or the 50 year old given the same basic good health of both? Risk assumption says that the 50 year old is more likely to keel over than the 20 year old as long as everything else is equal.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 169): So if you didn't have the money you would be denied the care?

Yes, but that is not the same as "rationing" in which X amount of people get the implant while the rest don't because the availabe implants are gone.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 169): Why is that rationing care when the same for your crown wasn't?

My mistype, I should have said, by your reasoning medicare and medicaid deny payments for certain treatments so rationing via the government already exists. You assume simply because an insurance company won't pay for a procedure that they are "rationing" which I have shown with my implant is wrong. The care is not rationed, it is just not paid for, there is a difference.

The rest of your post is just supposition and opinion on your part. Nowhere have you said that yes, certain economic, health, and age factors have to be addressed in order to make a public option work so that it won't collapse under the weight of persons who could readily afford to pay for employer sponsored or entirely private health insurance. Nowhere have you agreed that there is a difference between health insurance and health care. Nowhere have you agreed that the government should pay 100% of the bill versus the 70-80% that they pay now. Nor have you agreed that tort reform is necessary, as a matter of fact you have argued against it. Nor have you agreed that State lines should not impede insurance companies thereby creating more competition which always forces price down.

Of that 15% I wonder how many are illegals? In my mind they should get nothing more than stabilized treatment if necessary and then a free trip to the border. How about those that are already eligible for either medicare or medicaid that don't realize it? That cuts into that 15% as well as those that just don't carry insurance for their own reasons. Do you force them to carry insurance? Fine by me but not on the publics dime. When you can discuss the rules then we can get somewhere, right now all you are doing is castigating insurance execs and blaming them for doing what they were hired to do, make the company a profit.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 162): Joe Lieberman said the other day that in the Senate negotiations, Republicans have agreed on about 75% of the bill, but are fighting over the remaining 25% (presumably the part containing the public option). He recommends that we go ahead and pass the 75%, which include a lot of the reforms including protections against precondition rejection etc, and wait a couple of years to see how those reforms make a difference, and decide whether or not to go for the next 25% at that time. Wouldn't that be the adult thing to do, rather than "It's got to be all my way or you're just a neandrethal!"?

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 163): Proof that socialized medicine is the best solution. This guy would be dead if he lived in America...and not only in Miami either.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 164): WTF??? Are you saying we have no 80 year olds in this country? Are you saying that any Cuban citizen would benefit from having surgeons flown in specially from Spain and elsewhere?

Do you really thing the average Cuban citizen gets the same type and level of medical care Fadel Castro does?

Let me see? what about this medical horror story from the UK?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...x--weeks-NHS-doctors-took-out.html

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 165): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 161): Clinton's impeachment had nothing to do with the BJs he was getting from Monica Lewinski. Actually, it did. Ken Starr kept digging and digging and digging until he got Clinton. How, exactly was that for the good of the nation?

"Bill Clinton, President of the United States, was impeached by the House of Representatives on December 19, 1998, and acquitted by the Senate on February 12, 1999. The charges, perjury, obstruction of justice, and abuse of power arose from the Monica Lewinsky scandal and the Paula Jones lawsuit. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeach...nt_by_the_House_of_Representatives

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 165): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 161): I could care less about your finances, or how you spend it, but if you don't provide for yourself, don't expect me to do it for you. Again, I am, as are so many Americans, doing EVERYTHING in our power to stay above water. Shelter and food come first. TV and internet are down the list. We know that. We are re-arranging our lives accordingly. Unfortunatly, health care is one thing we think we can cut back on. No one expects to have a major health crisis. No one wants one. If we can just stay healthy until a good paying and steady job comes along....

So, you and your "significan other" believe you can cut back on health care because you expect the government to "give" you free health care? If your situation is that bad, why don't you give up cable TV and the internet entirely so you can afford your own health care, in case you do get sick?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 165): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 161): I am sure Canada, Japan, or the EU will welcome you with open arms. Do you need help packing? Or, you could find a nice place where the poor know their place and don't disturb people like you. Someplace where you can look down your nose on all those lazy people just sitting about waiting for a hand out. Russia? Angola? Myanmar? India? Your statement is typical of the right: If you don't love the United States exactly the way I do, get out.

I don't look down on anyone. I expect everyone to pull their own weight. I did that, how about you and your "significant other"? I love the US, and have proven it by supporting the country and defending it. Have you?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 165): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 161): Do you know who the head of the RNC is? I talk about 20 or so people and you give me the entire makeup of the Repubclian party and compare it to Obama's administration? Show me where I ever said the entire Republican party is only old white guys? Did you know there are gays in the Democratic party? There are women in the Democratic party? There are Christians? Jews? Blacks? What does that have to do with the most vocal ones, namely Rush, Hannity, and O'Reilly?

I talk to many people too, but I don't use their perceptions on the make up of the DNC, yet you say you do that for the GOP? You said, back in reply #159;

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 159): Calling the party with a majority of white guys as their spokes people racist versus calling the party filled with gays, Jews, blacks, and women racists?

Quoting Cws818 (Reply 168): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 161): Bush pulled off a recovery of the 2000-2001 recession (left to him by Clinton). The recession began AFTER Bush took office.

"The Early 2000s recession was felt in mostly Western countries, affecting the European Union mostly during 2000 and 2001 and the United States mostly in 2002 and 2003. Canada and Australia avoided the recession for the most part, while Russia, a nation that did not experience prosperity during the 1990s, began to recover. Japan's 1990s recession continued. The early 2000s recession had been predicted by economists for years, because the boom of the 1990s, which was accompanied by both low inflation and low unemployment, had already ceased in East Asia during the 1997 Asian financial crisis. The 1990s were also a period of recession between 1995 and 1998 inclusive."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_2000s_recession

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 169): How about significantly increasing funding for the VA Health? Can we do that?

The proposed VA budget for FY-2010 is $133.7B, from BHO. That is essentially the same as the FY-2009 VA Budget proposed by Bush, but adjusted up for infaltion (which Obama says does not exsist). So the new budget that begins on 1 October is essentially flat from the current budget, but the Dems are calling it an increase.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 169): Quoting DXing (Reply 160): A fellow countrymen with a serious illness is looking at that regardless of what type of health insurance he has since that type of illness is most likely going to affect the work he does in most cases leading to financial problems. Let's take acute leukemia - I'm familiar with that one. It CAN be treated and remission CAN be achieved in the first month of treatment. But after remission there is a lot of chemo (and a lot of costs) that are faced in order to keep it from coming back. Tested protocols that work - I'm also familiar with that. I also know that there are kids from, say, St. Jude's who have been "cured" and have frown up. Adults now - but certainly unfit for that special private care you are so proud of. And it is starting to show that they are having cardiac problems as adults, apparently as a result of the chemo they had as a child.

As you know, someone who has any type of cancer is never really "cured". After 5 years of being in remission, and 5 years since their last chemo treatment, they are considered "cured", but have a higher possibility of their cancer, or another type of reoccuring. That does not mean they will get cancer again, but they have a higher percentage of it happening again than someone who has never had cancers.

Quoting DXing (Reply 170): Quoting Ken777 (Reply 169): So we are in agreement that we need something to take care of the 15% How about significantly increasing funding for the VA Health? Can we do that? Yes on the 15%, that is where the effort should have been all along. VA Health is discretionary but with the large amount of new veterans from both Iraq and Afghanistan the system should be on a mandatory spending plan. How much? VA should still have to show cause for their budget or they will run into the same hole as Medicare and Medicaid have.

http://www.vmwusa.org/index.php?opti...ent&view=article&id=385&Itemid=266

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 165): Actually, it did. Ken Starr kept digging and digging and digging until he got Clinton. How, exactly was that for the good of the nation?

The impeachment effort was a political effort in the House. Turned a bunch of old Republican men into panty sniffers and peeping toms.

And it cost them in the 1996 election. Remember Clinton got elected.

If the Republicans had worked on what was important to the country instead of playing the impeachment game they may have won the election (slim, but a better chance) and they may have improved their performance in other elections.

Basically their efforts were a failure.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 165): Passed by a Republican majority Congress. Not just Clinton.

The point where the program went bad was when the finance and insurance sectors figured out how they could leverage inflation and gullible consumers into fast turning and highly profitable business. Well, it was profitable for a while.

Quoting DXing (Reply 170): How much? VA should still have to show cause for their budget or they will run into the same hole as Medicare and Medicaid have.

What you have to remember is that the VA takes care of "has beens". Has beens in terms of we were previously somewhat politically important when we were in uniform, but now we're not even that.

The result is that politicians (and the public a lot of the time) will look at the on-going costs and understand that the money could be spent on other, more voter attractive programs. Like a bridge, road or military post in a district that gets people re-elected.

Personally I believe that $133 Billion is pretty cheap considering that we're caring for vets going back to WW II.

Quoting DXing (Reply 170): Some top out economic level has to be met.

As long as a person is a reject, or a family has a reject, why not let them join the public plan and make contributions to that plan. If there is employer benefits, then let the employers also pay in. That reduces the growth of costs for private companies, makes them more profitable and lets you have better benefits than you have now for the same cost.

What's wrong with that? It sure takes care of the private side big time.

Quoting DXing (Reply 170): You can stop with the scare stories. Most employers know that if they want quality employees they have to offer some basic benefits.

Just how much do you believe your employer will pay out for a health care benefit? "Competitive benefit" sounds nice, but there is a limit.

And the larger the cost goes the more pressure it places on the employer to reduce the costs through limiting employment (or reducing it) and holding back on wages & salaries & bonuses.

Quoting DXing (Reply 170): The care is not rationed, it is just not paid for, there is a difference.

If you have the money, and only $3,000 is fairly cheap in terms of health care, then it's simply a matter of the insurance company making more money by not covering a treatment. There could have been a payment equal to the costs of the bridge - wouldn't have cost the insurance company any more than the bridge then. But they get to keep that cost of the bridge, don't they?

And there are a lot of people who cannot afford the $3,000, nor the dental insurance itself. They're stuffed.

How expensive would a "denied payment" treatment have to be before you're stuffed? How many tens of thousands of dollars cold you handle before you feel the pressure?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 172): Quoting Seb146 (Reply 165): Actually, it did. Ken Starr kept digging and digging and digging until he got Clinton. How, exactly was that for the good of the nation? The impeachment effort was a political effort in the House. Turned a bunch of old Republican men into panty sniffers and peeping toms. And it cost them in the 1996 election. Remember Clinton got elected.

The Hiuse impeached Clinton in Dec. 1997, and the Senate tried him in Feb. 1998. The GOP picked up House seats and won the WH in 2000, they lost two seats in the Senate, giving the Senate to Tom Dachel and the Dems.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 172): Quoting DXing (Reply 170): How much? VA should still have to show cause for their budget or they will run into the same hole as Medicare and Medicaid have. What you have to remember is that the VA takes care of "has beens". Has beens in terms of we were previously somewhat politically important when we were in uniform, but now we're not even that. The result is that politicians (and the public a lot of the time) will look at the on-going costs and understand that the money could be spent on other, more voter attractive programs. Like a bridge, road or military post in a district that gets people re-elected. Personally I believe that $133 Billion is pretty cheap considering that we're caring for vets going back to WW II.

I believe the US still has one veteran of WWI, also. But, you are right, Ken. The $133B, or so spent on US Veterans is a small cost, and covers much, much more than health care. It also covers pensions of those wounded, injured, or became sick due to military service. The politicians mostly look at us as "has beens". They often refer to VA benefits as "entitlements" when in fact it is an earned promise for hard service to the country.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 172): What you have to remember is that the VA takes care of "has beens". Has beens in terms of we were previously somewhat politically important when we were in uniform, but now we're not even that.

Don't believe any of that for even a minute.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 172): As long as a person is a reject, or a family has a reject, why not let them join the public plan and make contributions to that plan.

Because there has to be limits or the boat gets swamped. I don't know how much clearer I can make that.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 172): What's wrong with that?

It's called free loading. If you have the money to afford the private health insurance premium, then you don't need me the taxpayer supporting you.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 172): And the larger the cost goes the more pressure it places on the employer to reduce the costs through limiting employment (or reducing it) and holding back on wages & salaries & bonuses.

Sounds good till you realize the employer will factor those cost into the price they charge for their product or service.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 172): If you have the money, and only $3,000 is fairly cheap in terms of health care, then it's simply a matter of the insurance company making more money by not covering a treatment.

I knew from the begining that the implant would not be covered since it would considered cosmetic as opposed to a bridge which is reconstrcutive. I could get the bridge and have the insurance company pay the 50% but I'd rather have the implant based on the input of two denstists.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 172): And there are a lot of people who cannot afford the $3,000, nor the dental insurance itself. They're stuffed.

No, they can save up for the procedure. This isn't something that has to be done right now, it can wait a fairly long while.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 172): How expensive would a "denied payment" treatment have to be before you're stuffed? How many tens of thousands of dollars cold you handle before you feel the pressure?

Anything like that will be covered under my plan since it would not be considered cosmetic.

If you want a public option there have to be limits fiinancially for those that are in the program. I won't support a plan that allows anyone who can afford their own care to be subsidized by the public.

Quoting DXing (Reply 174): Because there has to be limits or the boat gets swamped. I don't know how much clearer I can make that.

I'm talking rejects for medical, not financial, reasons. If you have an "undesirable" (might be a better term) then they either needed to be cared for by insurance companies OR by a public plan.

The private plan by the nature of profit margins will be more expensive than a public plan. You wither pay a tax to cover cost increases or you pay higher premiums. The premium increase would be the tax + profit margin on the tax.

Quoting DXing (Reply 174): It's called free loading. If you have the money to afford the private health insurance premium, then you don't need me the taxpayer supporting you.

A "normal family" can have the money and still be rejected. We knew if we applied for health care in a lot of companies we would be rejected because my wife had gone through breast cancer 7 years before we applied. Didn't matter that we could pay for the care.

Quoting DXing (Reply 174): Sounds good till you realize the employer will factor those cost into the price they charge for their product or service.

Or if you pull out the cost you could reduce prices and be more competitive, increase salaries, hire more people. That sounds better, which is why I believe that McCain wanted to tax premium benefits. Shift that off of the employer and businesses have an immediate gain in performance.

Or to look at it another way, health insurance benefits DRAG DOWN the competitiveness of American business and it might be time for Corporate America to change directions. (See McCain's plan).  

Quoting DXing (Reply 174): No, they can save up for the procedure. This isn't something that has to be done right now, it can wait a fairly long while.

You also have problems of mesial drift and lack of contact with the opposing tooth. Might impact you bite a bit.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 171): "Bill Clinton, President of the United States, was impeached by the House of Representatives on December 19, 1998, and acquitted by the Senate on February 12, 1999. The charges, perjury, obstruction of justice, and abuse of power arose from the Monica Lewinsky scandal and the Paula Jones lawsuit. "

Way to avoid the question. What I said was:

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 165): Ken Starr kept digging and digging and digging until he got Clinton. How, exactly was that for the good of the nation?

So, tell me again how Clinton was destroying the nation?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 171): If your situation is that bad, why don't you give up cable TV and the internet entirely so you can afford your own health care, in case you do get sick?

Shave $30 each off our monthly expenses is easy enough. Any plans we can get with a low deductable and low co-pays we can get for about $100 a month? How about covering regular office visits two or three times a year so we don't get sick?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 171): I expect everyone to pull their own weight. I did that, how about you and your "significant other"? I love the US, and have proven it by supporting the country and defending it. Have you?

And there is the guilt. Not all of us were/are capable of enlisting. Does that mean we hate the United States? Does that mean we want to bring the government down? We pay taxes. We contact our Congress men and women. We do everything us evil never-enlisted-so-you-don't-love-the-United-States-like-us-military-types-do can to show our love for the country.

I figured it out about KC135 and DX and Rush and Hannity and O'Reilly and Coulter and all the rest like them: schoolyard bullies. They want so badly to feel so much better about themselves that they insult and push around those that do not blindly follow them. They parse and disect every word until the other side gives up giving these people the feeling of superiority. They go around feeling smug and self-righeous and so full of themselves because people are sick of (to borrow from Barney Frank) arguing with a dining room table. I have fed DX's ego by not reponding to his personal attacks. And, here is me feeding KC135's ego. Good day, sir.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 175): I'm talking rejects for medical, not financial, reasons. If you have an "undesirable" (might be a better term) then they either needed to be cared for by insurance companies OR by a public plan.

That can be dealt with in the same legislation that conservatives promote in making pre-condiditons illegal for non acceptance. Of course in order to make that viable you have to open the pool up by reducing or eliminating State regulations that limit the amount of insurance companies that a compete in a State. You also have to allow the private insuranc company to set a fair rate for compensation based on risk since the person being supposedly "insured" is already technically "sick". Government run programs should be left for the indigent.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 175): A "normal family" can have the money and still be rejected.

A "normal" family is not going to get rejected. Being "normal" implies that you don't have a preexisting condition or family history that would raise the risk level.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 175): . We knew if we applied for health care in a lot of companies we would be rejected because my wife had gone through breast cancer 7 years before we applied. Didn't matter that we could pay for the care.

Then guess what, you're not normal and you can expect to pay more. Don't want to pay more? Then go it alone until you qualify at some economic level for government assistance.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 175): Or if you pull out the cost you could reduce prices and be more competitive, increase salaries, hire more people.

Which just leads to more and more taxes and less and less choicd for everyone. That is a non-strarter and has proven as such with the majority over the past few months.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 175): Or to look at it another way, health insurance benefits DRAG DOWN the competitiveness of American business and it might be time for Corporate America to change directions. (See McCain's plan).

Nice try but the same costs will drag down a government program and make it far more costly than ever envisioned unless the plan is reserved for the truly needy.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 175): You also have problems of mesial drift and lack of contact with the opposing tooth. Might impact you bite a bit.

Oh well, save faster. As has been stated, life is not fair. Plenty of people go through life missing a tooth.

Quoting DXing (Reply 147): Yet you evidently have no problem with the government becoming that as they have in other countries that ration healthcare.

Its being rationed right now! Do insurance companies pay out every single claim? You have no problem that your current health decisions are being made by Level 1 Accountant.

Quoting DXing (Reply 160): So my care is not rationed, it is just not paid for.

"rationed" vs "not covered" = semantics... Specially when what is covered decreases year by year and what you pay increases.

Quoting DXing (Reply 177): As has been stated, life is not fair

Right... so now it wont be "fair" to you - you will support other people with your taxes. Oh well,, life is not fair.. Too bad   So stop complaining about it.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 178): Do insurance companies pay out every single claim?

Nope, but then again I can change insurance companines much easier than you can change governments.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 178): Specially when what is covered decreases year by year and what you pay increases.

Not here. My policy has remained pretty much unchanged over the past 10 years.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 178): So stop complaining about it.

Ahhh..it was ok for some to complain when President Bush was in office but now we must march in lock step?

Quoting DXing (Reply 179): Not here. My policy has remained pretty much unchanged over the past 10 years.

Ill take your world for it - but is it me or you always seem to have the right answer for everything. You seem untouched by anything. Market being down? Your rate of return is 50%; Insurance going up? yours is going down; scraping by? still have money to give to charity - seems a little suspect to me. Unless your name is Clark Kent. But OK.

If everyone lived the perfect life you live. Ahhh paradise.. How unfair is life...

Quoting DXing (Reply 179): Ahhh..it was ok for some to complain when President Bush was in office but now we must march in lock step?

Well, we never said "life is not fair" -like you are doing..

So, yes life if not fair. Time to pay up buddy - chalk it up to "life not being fair'"

You are not suggesting that life should not be fair to other, but fair to you right?

Quoting DXing (Reply 179): Nope, but then again I can change insurance companines much easier than you can change governments.

Cuts have been across the board, regardless of insurance company.. so i dont see your point..

Except your company : "Mayberry Insurance Company"

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 180): Cuts have been across the board, regardless of insurance company.. so i dont see your point..

So you have heard. But I have had a similar experience. My insurance coverage has actually gotten a little bit better this year - they lowered our copays while our rates stayed about the same.

By the way, this is the kind of decisions you can expect when a government deals with health care.

Tens of thousands with chronic back pain will be forced to live in agony after a decision to slash the number of painkilling injections issued on the NHS, doctors have warned.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...ay-for-painkilling-injections.html

Meanwhile...

A paedophile with a 30-year history of abusing children is being prescribed Viagra on the NHS - and there is nothing the authorities can do to stop him.

Roger Martin, 71, merely has to visit his GP to obtain the libido-enhancing drug, even though experts warn it will enable him to continue preying on children despite his age.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-despite-previous-convictions.html

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 181): My insurance coverage has actually gotten a little bit better this year - they lowered our copays while our rates stayed about the same.

Can you confirm that what is actually covered did not decrease?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 181): By the way, this is the kind of decisions you can expect when a government deals with health care.

Blah... there are terrible sob stories everywhere... What is your point again? You are not actualy concerned about people are you? Less injections means more savings!! Bonus!!

Poor english back pain sufferers. .. oh well sucks to be them "life is just not fair"

[Edited 2009-08-26 20:04:24]

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 180): Ill take your world for it - but is it me or you always seem to have the right answer for everything. You seem untouched by anything.

I've been touched by a lot of things. I didn't get here overnight, or even last month.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 180): Market being down?

Sold out in 2007, bought gold, that's in the history here. I suggested gold would be a good buy and plenty gave me grief over it.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 180): yours is going down

Not going down, but certainly not doubling either.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 180): scraping by? still have money to give to charity - seems a little suspect to me.

As I stated, I didn't give a lot then but I made sure to give something. Maybe you could learn a lesson there.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 180): If everyone lived the perfect life you live. Ahhh paradise.. How unfair is life...

My life has been anything but perfect. But I didn't sit around and whine like some here do either.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 180): Well, we never said "life is not fair" -like you are doing..

Sure they did. They said it wasn't fair he was in office or that he got re-elected. They said it wasn't fair that the democratic party wasn't allowed to share power even though they were in the minority. As I said elsewhere, shoes on the other foot now and evidently it pinches a little, get used to it.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 180): Cuts have been across the board, regardless of insurance company.. so i dont see your point..

As stated, my insurance has not been cut. Of course maybe you are talking about the proposed cuts in medicare that the President is talking about to help fund his latest boondoggle?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 176): Quoting Seb146 (Reply 165): Ken Starr kept digging and digging and digging until he got Clinton. How, exactly was that for the good of the nation? So, tell me again how Clinton was destroying the nation?

Throwing cruise missiles at an asprin factory in Sudan to draw attention away from his BJs from Monica. That pissed off the terrorists even more, and they attacked the USS Cole during a refueling stop in Yeman, and later adirectly attacked US soil on 9/11, killing 3000, many of them Americans. That brings us to where we are today.

Actually, not dealing with terrorists goes back to Carter in 1978 and his impotence in dealing with Iran.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 176): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 171): "Bill Clinton, President of the United States, was impeached by the House of Representatives on December 19, 1998, and acquitted by the Senate on February 12, 1999. The charges, perjury, obstruction of justice, and abuse of power arose from the Monica Lewinsky scandal and the Paula Jones lawsuit. " Way to avoid the question. What I said was:

Yeah, a way to avoid your question......right. I answered it, and gave you a reference. Just because you are to blind in your personal hatered of the GOP you cannot see facts, or history.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 176): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 171): If your situation is that bad, why don't you give up cable TV and the internet entirely so you can afford your own health care, in case you do get sick? Shave $30 each off our monthly expenses is easy enough. Any plans we can get with a low deductable and low co-pays we can get for about $100 a month? How about covering regular office visits two or three times a year so we don't get sick?

Well, the choice is yours, isn't it? But, if you decide to keep cable TV, internet, etc. instead of prividing for yourself, don't expect me to do it through higher taxes.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 176): I figured it out about KC135 and DX and Rush and Hannity and O'Reilly and Coulter and all the rest like them: schoolyard bullies.

Hmmmm, it was the DNC supported union thugs that beat up people, including putting a man into a wheelchair. No one from the GOP did that. So who, exactly are the bullies?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 176): They want so badly to feel so much better about themselves that they insult and push around those that do not blindly follow them. They parse and disect every word until the other side gives up giving these people the feeling of superiority. They go around feeling smug and self-righeous and so full of themselves because people are sick of (to borrow from Barney Frank) arguing with a dining room table.

So, now you know everything about DX, Dreadnaught, me, and the radio/TV talking heads you can tell how we feel? Barney Frank has to ague with the dining room talbe, that is the only way he can win an argument.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 176): I have fed DX's ego by not reponding to his personal attacks. And, here is me feeding KC135's ego. Good day, sir.

I am in good company......thank you, sir.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 178): Quoting DXing (Reply 147): Yet you evidently have no problem with the government becoming that as they have in other countries that ration healthcare. Its being rationed right now! Do insurance companies pay out every single claim? You have no problem that your current health decisions are being made by Level 1 Accountant.

Correct, it is being rationed by the governments in Canada, the UK, France, and the PDRM (Massachusetts), with health care decisions made by proffessional government bearucrats.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...-million-NHS-patients-exposed.html The UK

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=336178343967257 France

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=336004478850567 PDRM

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=335660247180517 Canada

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 178): Quoting DXing (Reply 147): Quoting DXing (Reply 160): So my care is not rationed, it is just not paid for. "rationed" vs "not covered" = semantics... Specially when what is covered decreases year by year and what you pay increases. Quoting DXing (Reply 177): As has been stated, life is not fair Right... so now it wont be "fair" to you - you will support other people with your taxes. Oh well,, life is not fair.. Too bad So stop complaining about it.

Quoting DXing (Reply 179): Quoting Mt99 (Reply 178): So stop complaining about it. Ahhh..it was ok for some to complain when President Bush was in office but now we must march in lock step?

Like the robots the Libs are?

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 180): but is it me or you always seem to have the right answer for everything.

It is both, he is always right, you don't have the capability to understand him.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 180): You seem untouched by anything. Market being down? Your rate of return is 50%; Insurance going up? yours is going down; scraping by? still have money to give to charity - seems a little suspect to me.

Wow.....thank you Mt99 for finding all that out for me. I had better get in touch with DXing right away, he is doing much better than I am. Maybe I can get some advice from him

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 181): By the way, this is the kind of decisions you can expect when a government deals with health care. Tens of thousands with chronic back pain will be forced to live in agony after a decision to slash the number of painkilling injections issued on the NHS, doctors have warned. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he....html

Correct, along with the four links I provided from the UK, France, Canada, and the PDRM.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 182): Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 181): My insurance coverage has actually gotten a little bit better this year - they lowered our copays while our rates stayed about the same. Can you confirm that what is actually covered did not decrease?

Mt99, he does not have to confirm that to you. You need to read the US HIPAA laws.

Sick that the Dems are using the death and legacy of Kennedy to revive their stillborn health care reform bill.   

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/TedKennedy/story?id=8420408

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 184): Actually, not dealing with terrorists goes back to Carter in 1978 and his impotence in dealing with Iran.

Off topic, I know. But couldn't resist. It was Ronald Reagan that began funding the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, a portion of which would later mutate into Al-Qa'ida:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3340101/

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 184): Wow.....thank you Mt99 for finding all that out for me. I had better get in touch with DXing right away, he is doing much better than I am. Maybe I can get some advice from him

You really should. He is great! Non-plus ultra of humanity. Apart from Jesus of course. A real Martyr of the American cause.

Quoting DXing (Reply 179): Nope, but then again I can change insurance companines much easier than you can change governments.

You can change insurance companies? Oh, this will be good.

Go try.

Really. Go try.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 181): By the way, this is the kind of decisions you can expect when a government deals with health care. Tens of thousands with chronic back pain will be forced to live in agony after a decision to slash the number of painkilling injections issued on the NHS, doctors have warned.

Is there not a private health insurance option in the UK? Are there not alternatives to pain killers?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 181): A paedophile with a 30-year history of abusing children is being prescribed Viagra on the NHS - and there is nothing the authorities can do to stop him.

Unfortunatly, this happens in the United States with private insurance as well. Not only that, do you not have e-mail? I can not count how many e-mails a day I get about how I can recieve the cheapest Viagra and Cialis.

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 186): Off topic, I know. But couldn't resist. It was Ronald Reagan that began funding the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, a portion of which would later mutate into Al-Qa'ida:

Didn't Bush II stand up and tell the world that the United States does not negotiate with terrorists while authorizing and shutting down the air base in Saudi Arabia, which was one condition for the Sept 11 attacks by Osama bin Laden? One thing I have heard that pissed OBL/al-Qaida off so much was the fact that Daddy Bush built the bin Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia after the first Gulf War. OBL did not want any Westerners in the Muslim holy land and tried everything to get that base closed, including the first bombing of the WTC. Before the entire right gets pissed off at Clinton (as usual), how many attacks were there on American soil under Clinton?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 189): Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 181): A paedophile with a 30-year history of abusing children is being prescribed Viagra on the NHS - and there is nothing the authorities can do to stop him. Unfortunatly, this happens in the United States with private insurance as well. Not only that, do you not have e-mail? I can not count how many e-mails a day I get about how I can recieve the cheapest Viagra and Cialis.

Good point. I mean - how would a private insurance, which would cover Viagra - stop the man from getting it? Would it be "moral call" from the private company not to supply it?

Quoting DXing (Reply 177): That can be dealt with in the same legislation that conservatives promote in making pre-condiditons illegal for non acceptance.

So no legal pre-existing conditions means that the law will require insurance companies pay for treatment for existing conditions?

Quoting DXing (Reply 177): A "normal" family is not going to get rejected. Being "normal" implies that you don't have a preexisting condition or family history that would raise the risk level.

A normal family these days? Maybe you should understand that we are really not freaks. If you understand that then you might start to understand that you are at as much risk as we were. I know you don't believe that, and you probably believe you are well protected. Pity.

Quoting DXing (Reply 177): Then guess what, you're not normal and you can expect to pay more. Don't want to pay more? Then go it alone until you qualify at some economic level for government assistance.

Actually we are about as normal as you can get - which is why you should be worried. Cancer is on the increase and costs of treatments are also increasing. It can happen in any family so maybe you should ease up on looking down your nose at others. I certainly don't expect you to turn away from greed & self importance.

Quoting DXing (Reply 177): That is a non-strarter and has proven as such with the majority over the past few months.

One assumes it is a non-starter - the insurance companies have clearly put in enough money into propaganda to make people believe it's a non-starter, but why should we blindly follow the desires of insurance companies?

Quoting DXing (Reply 177): Nice try but the same costs will drag down a government program and make it far more costly than ever envisioned unless the plan is reserved for the truly needy.

And you really don't believe that insurance costs are not going to continue faster than wages & salaries? At some point the cost will surpass various wage levels. What is the crisis point for employers then?

Quoting DXing (Reply 179): Nope, but then again I can change insurance companines much easier than you can change governments.

You forget - we did decide to change government last November. Conservatives simply weren't able to handle governing the way that normal people in the country expected. From invading Iraq instead of going after terrorists, financial sector crashing, home mortgages foreclosed, health care costs going through the roof. Why should anyone be surprised that We The People changed the government?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 181): A paedophile with a 30-year history of abusing children is being prescribed Viagra on the NHS - and there is nothing the authorities can do to stop him.

First, why is the guy out of prison? And why didn't the other prisoners take care of the problem?

But to get to the point - countries are run by old men. Of course they are going to put Viagra into the "covered' column. Put women in charge and that would be one of the first changes they made. ")

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 188): You can change insurance companies? Oh, this will be good. Go try. Really. Go try.

LOL. Now that was funny.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 191): But to get to the point - countries are run by old men. Of course they are going to put Viagra into the "covered' column. Put women in charge and that would be one of the first changes they made. ")

I am sure more a few GOP members would be mad if its get cut  

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 188): Quoting DXing (Reply 179): Nope, but then again I can change insurance companines much easier than you can change governments. You can change insurance companies? Oh, this will be good.

I have done it. It is easy, just sign up with the new company, and notify the old company when to stop paying benefits.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 189): Is there not a private health insurance option in the UK?

Let us know when you get there.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 189): Are there not alternatives to pain killers?

Yes, there are, but remember Obama asking everyone to "take a pill instead of surgery"?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 189): Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 181): A paedophile with a 30-year history of abusing children is being prescribed Viagra on the NHS - and there is nothing the authorities can do to stop him. Unfortunatly, this happens in the United States with private insurance as well.

Only up until they are convicted of a crime. I know liberals do not understand the concept, but in the US, you are still innocent until proven guilty by a court of law.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 189): Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 186): Off topic, I know. But couldn't resist. It was Ronald Reagan that began funding the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, a portion of which would later mutate into Al-Qa'ida: Didn't Bush II stand up and tell the world that the United States does not negotiate with terrorists while authorizing and shutting down the air base in Saudi Arabia, which was one condition for the Sept 11 attacks by Osama bin Laden?

Reagan funded the Mujahideen while they were fighting the USSR. The Mujahideen broke into several groups, including our allies, the Northern Alliance. The base closed by Bush 43 was done under an agreement signed by Bush 41 to turn it over to the RSAF after 10 years.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 192): Quoting Ken777 (Reply 191): But to get to the point - countries are run by old men. Of course they are going to put Viagra into the "covered' column. Put women in charge and that would be one of the first changes they made. ") I am sure more a few GOP members would be mad if its get cut

Not to mention Harry Reid, Chris Dodd, Barnie Frank, and Nancy Pelosi's hubby.   

BTW, Liberal Congresswoman Betsy Markey (D) CO, says we need to give up benefits to reform the health care system.

She is also advocating raping Medicare to pay for it;

"Some people, including Medicare recipients, will have to give up some current benefits to truly reform the nation's health-care system, Rep. Betsy Markey told a gathering of constituents in Fort Collins on Wednesday."

Which benefits? Chemo theropy? Heart disease treatments? Life saving surgeries?

The rest of the story;


http://www.coloradoan.com/article/20090827/NEWS01/908270335

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 188): Go try. Really. Go try.

I can switch tomorrow if I wish. I have my choice of a couple of companies I've gotten quotes out of in doing research for these posts, or I could elect to take health care from my wife's company. No problems.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 191): So no legal pre-existing conditions means that the law will require insurance companies pay for treatment for existing conditions?

As long as insurance companies are allowed to compete across state lines and tort reform is enacted.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 191): A normal family these days?

My street is full of them. I work with normal people. There are more normal people than you would evidently like to admit otherwise pre-existing conditions would not be the problem they are.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 191): Maybe you should understand that we are really not freaks

I have not said anyone is a freak. I have said that if you have a condition you can expect to pay more for that condition, that is only fair to someone like me that does not have that same condition.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 191): If you understand that then you might start to understand that you are at as much risk as we were. I know you don't believe that, and you probably believe you are well protected. Pity.

As I have pointed out time and time again, everyone is at risk 24/7/365. But that fact does not mean that I should have to pay as much as someone who has already had problems.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 191): Actually we are about as normal as you can get -

Except that your families medical history is anything but stellar. That's not your fault but that's the cards life has dealt you. There are probably a number of ideal ways to deal with this but trying to get people without such medical history to pay higher rates, or forcing them into a single pay system that a clear majority does not want, or blaming the salary histories of insurance executives is not the way to go about it. Perhaps working to reform the exisitng insurance system would be to you and your families benefit. But so far I have seen no indication you are inclined to do that. It seems you've made up your mind that it's single payer, with no responsibility or plan to keep the system from getting swamped, your family gets it for free, or nothing.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 191): It can happen in any family so maybe you should ease up on looking down your nose at others. I certainly don't expect you to turn away from greed & self importance.

Perhaps you should be willing to admit that your families medical history is anything but normal and that just like there are lottery winners, there are also people who get dealt bad hands in life and no amount of freebies are going to fix that.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 191): but why should we blindly follow the desires of insurance companies?

Why should we blindly troop into another government program when in the past 50 years they've been proven time and time again not to work. The great society was supposed to fix our poverty problem, has it? Yet some how a single payer government system is going to fix our health care?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 191): And you really don't believe that insurance costs are not going to continue faster than wages & salaries?

Yes, because any company that raises their costs to a point that the price becomes less than the value will face one of two things, a competitor that is willing to charge less for the same service, or bankruptcy due to a loss of busiess. Why do you think airlines like Southwest, Frontier, and Jet Blue exist?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 191): You forget - we did decide to change government last November

We did? You mean the United States is no longer a represenative form of democracy? Wow, I missed that.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 193): I have done it. It is easy

And I tried and couldn't.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 193): but in the US, you are still innocent until proven guilty by a court of law.

Do you believe a reasonable doctor would give a Rx for Viagra to someone who had previously being convicted with any type of child molestation?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 194): BTW, Liberal Congresswoman Betsy Markey (D) CO, says we need to give up benefits to reform the health care system.

And there are others at the other end of the scale that believe that we should stop Medicare because it's not fair to insurance companies, or because they don't want to pay their taxes, etc.

Doesn't mean that we get either's desire.

Quoting DXing (Reply 195): As long as insurance companies are allowed to compete across state lines and tort reform is enacted.

Flogging a couple of dead horses there. Do you sell health insurance by any chance?

Tort reform? Had surgery in Houston after Texas got is - no great reductions in fees there.

I could care less about cutting out state rights in the area of insurance companies, as long as there are strict national standards, including potential prison time for violations.

Quoting DXing (Reply 195): There are more normal people than you would evidently like to admit otherwise pre-existing conditions would not be the problem they are.

Going in two different directions there.

There are more normal people with potentially expensive medical problems. That IS what makes pre-existing conditions a problem.

Oh, forgot to mention - there is also a mountain of undiagnosed medical problems in people who just think they are normal. You never know.

Quoting DXing (Reply 195): I have said that if you have a condition you can expect to pay more for that condition,

And that attitude is one of the core reasons why we have the insurance problems in this country we have.

That and MBAs who have been squeezing policy holders out of the system.

In the end, by the way, we were paying out about $1,200 a month for crap insurance. Is that high enough for you?

The only two answers are public plans (letting the insurance companies pass them out of their cost base) and making any discrimination because of medical problems illegal. That anti-discrimination approach brings us back to the 50s and 60s in terms of being abled to be insured.

Quoting DXing (Reply 195): Perhaps you should be willing to admit that your families medical history is anything but normal and that just like there are lottery winners

Dude, we are so normal it makes me laugh at times. What hasn't penetrated your mind yet is that shit happens to normal families. Maybe families just like yours, if you have a family. Again, go back to the St. Jude's example - do you really believe that these families with kids there were anything buy normal families before the diagnosis?

Quoting DXing (Reply 195): Why should we blindly troop into another government program when in the past 50 years they've been proven time and time again not to work.

And why should we believe the winging insurance companies when they have been ripping us off year after year. Only a sucker would believe that they can't compete.

Quoting DXing (Reply 195): We did? You mean the United States is no longer a represenative form of democracy? Wow, I missed that.

Surprised you missed the country tossing conservatives out on their ass for very poor performance.

Even my 7 year old (then) granddaughter knew that - actually she voted for Obama as I let her fill in my ballot.

And as McCain said, elections have consequences. We saw that when we put Bush & Cheney in office. Now we get to let the other party give it a try. They certainly can't do any worse.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 196): Flogging

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 196): Tort reform?

No sense in trying to come to any agreement then. You're not willing to compromise on anything. I've said that we can make denying pre-existing condtions illegal if insurance companies are allowed to compete sans State regulations, that there is tort reform, and that any public option has restrictions to keep it from being swamped. Didn't get much back. Its as I said, you've made up your mind that the public option with no restrictions is the only thing that can work. Good luck with that although I have suspicion you're going to be sorely disappointed.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 196): potentially

That's the key word in all your posts, what might be instead of what is. Yet when applied to how insurance companies figure their premiums all of the sudden that becomes the wrong thing to do. Amazing.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 196): And that attitude

Of yours that people who have not suffered a medical condition should pay as much as those who have is one of the reasons that the ordinary public is against a government run plan just as a good driver will shop an insurance company that charges them the same as a person with a poor driving record.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 196): What hasn't penetrated your mind yet is that shit happens to normal families.

What has penetrated is that you can't differentiate between reality and what might be.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 196): And why should we believe

We already know that government can't manage the programs they set up. They cost more and deliver less every single time with one single exception.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 196): Surprised you missed the country tossing conservatives out on their ass for very poor performance.

We changed administrations not governments, I bet your 7 year old granddaughter knew that.

Quoting DXing (Reply 197): You're not willing to compromise on anything. I've said that we can make denying pre-existing condtions illegal if insurance companies are allowed to compete sans State regulations, that there is tort reform, and that any public option has restrictions to keep it from being swamped.

I'm quite happy to make compromises. I would go for tort reform, but I don't believe it cuts costs. I had cancer surgery at Methodist Hospital in Houston and didn't save any money - even though Texas has tort reform. My sister died because of a dumb nurse in another Houston hospital and there are all sorts of hoops her family have to go through if they want to sue. And, incidentally, they should.

Restricting people who go onto a public option? I have no problems with reasonable restrictions. I've written about having the public option for insurance company rejects and undesirables. That would keep your premiums down. I have no problem making it illegal for companies to drop their coverage to save money. Put that in and in a few years corporations will be crying for more reform.

I also believe that health insurance has reached a cost level that makes it unrealistic for the lower wage earners. When I paid out $1,200+ a month I was very aware that someone making under $20/hr would have a very hard time paying that cost. So I do believe in a public option for them. If that can reduce the medical fee surcharges needed now to cover those without insurance then you, a premium payer, would benefit.

These things should be simple when looking at options for a public plan. The problem is that too many people have been frightened by the insurance companies. They are the only ones that will benefit from Obama failing to bring improvements to health care in this country.

And I'm not that big a believer in state rights. Prefer equal protection under the law at a federal level. There is no problem in my mind to opening up markets, BUT I believe that companies taking over a market should be required to take on policy holders of companies going out of business. I also believe that in order to do business in a state the insurance company needs to be registered in the state and be subject to the state laws, especially laws related to consumer liability. Helps avoid fly by night crooks.

Quoting DXing (Reply 197): Of yours that people who have not suffered a medical condition should pay as much as those who have is one of the reasons that the ordinary public is against a government run plan just as a good driver will shop an insurance company that charges them the same as a person with a poor driving record.

I don't equate health with driving. A person can get through life without driving a car - my mother-in-law managed to love to 86 without driving.

Few, however, could get to 86 without health care in one form or another.

I also believe it is cheaper to have the largest pool possible for health care. The more you tighten the pools the more people are going to be pushed out and the greater the surcharge on medical fees to cover those who can't pay. It's a pragmatic approach.

Quoting DXing (Reply 197): What has penetrated is that you can't differentiate between reality and what might be.

I've seen the ugly side of reality and think our greatest failures are when we do not strive for what might be.

Quoting DXing (Reply 197): We changed administrations not governments, I bet your 7 year old granddaughter knew that.

I tend to consider it a change of government as one would call it under a Westminster system. That is because there was such a major shift in both levels of Congress as well as the White House that it is similar to a "change of government" in a Westminster system.

That might be a bit complicated for the granddaughter, even though she has been placed in the advanced class at school. Tut, tut. Self gloss there.

Most U.S. people probably have not seen what a public healthcare institution looks like on the inside, so here're some fresh episodes of the 3rd season of "Sairaala" ([The] Hospital) on-line. The older seasons that you'll also find on-line are not viewing time limited. Everything from giving birth to bodybags has been skillfully videographed. And -- try to spot any evil care denying admins!

http://www.ruutu.fi/default.asp?videoID=7524&vd=5&cc=1
http://www.ruutu.fi/default.asp?videoID=7556&vd=5&cc=1
http://www.ruutu.fi/default.asp?videoID=7586&vd=5&cc=1
http://www.ruutu.fi/default.asp?videoID=7615&vd=5&cc=1

If you have any questions, I'll be glad to answer.

The University Hospital's web page: http://www.pshp.fi/default.aspx?nodeid=9952&contentlan=2

Added a "making of" clip: http://www.ruutu.fi/default.asp?videoID=6818&vd=1&cc=1

[Edited 2009-08-28 05:23:45]